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ColsBols
United States7 Posts
My question, is why the fuck didn't he cancel the hatch when he saw the 2rax bunker shenaniganz happening? He lost the hatch, lots of lings and mining time and a queen. Is that really worth it? maybe I'm missing something obvious. And i guess as a larger metagame question, if that happens to me, should I let the hatch finish and try to hold it off, and why? thanks | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 01 2011 12:51 ColsBols wrote: I hope you watched the GSL Up/Down Group C matches. So it's match 5 set 1, TSL_Alive vs LeenockfOU. Once again, Leenock goes hatch first and Alive responds with a herpaderp 2rax bunker rush, hidden in the gold mins. He builds his first bunker a safe distance away. Leenock spots whats going on as first bunker is being built. Hatchery is still being built. Alive waits for the hatch to finish, builds second bunker right next to hatch. Fight fight pull drones kill marines make zerglingz LOSES THE HATCH. My question, is why the fuck didn't he cancel the hatch when he saw the 2rax bunker shenaniganz happening? He lost the hatch, lots of lings and mining time and a queen. Is that really worth it? maybe I'm missing something obvious. And i guess as a larger metagame question, if that happens to me, should I let the hatch finish and try to hold it off, and why? thanks First of all, including the "herpaderp" in the post only makes you look like an idiot. Second, if zerg doesn't have a natural they lose. Rarely ever will you see an expansionless zerg win against a terran or protoss and it isn't just because of economy, it is about the production that the hatch gives you, the extra larva. You need that extra larva for extra lings to hold off the follow-up aggression, sitting on one hatch means you just die to marines. In an optimal scenario that hatch should not have fallen. Third, you used "metagame" wrong :/ | ||
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ColsBols
United States7 Posts
So then if Zerg definitely needs a natural, why go hatch first on Xel' Naga Caverns, a small map on which I see time and time again hatch-first losing to terran rushes, even in the pros? Why not go your own variation of 14gas/14pool to safely expand? Is it a question of being greedy and paying for it if it fails? And how does 1base-baneling aggression covering your expo measure up against hatch first, when you have to drone up lots to make the most of it while allowing your opponent to do the same? By all means, attempt hatch first, but if you see the bunker rush coming at you while the hatch is still building, why not cancel the hatch and tech up in your main to something that can harass/deny/delay the opponent's expo? Just throwing thoughts out here, and thank you for the help. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 01 2011 13:23 ColsBols wrote: Try to be a little more elitist in the "simple questions, simple answers" thread, why don't you. I appreciate your response, but I've been drinking and did not put all that much thought into my word choices, hence the use of 'herpaderp' as a childish expression indicating my dislike of bunker-rush play. And I do realize I did use metagame wrong, but I wanted to explore the issue further. So then if Zerg definitely needs a natural, why go hatch first on Xel' Naga Caverns, a small map on which I see time and time again hatch-first losing to terran rushes, even in the pros? Why not go your own variation of 14gas/14pool to safely expand? Is it a question of being greedy and paying for it if it fails? And how does 1base-baneling aggression covering your expo measure up against hatch first, when you have to drone up lots to make the most of it while allowing your opponent to do the same? By all means, attempt hatch first, but if you see the bunker rush coming at you while the hatch is still building, why not cancel the hatch and tech up in your main to something that can harass/deny/delay the opponent's expo? Just throwing thoughts out here, and thank you for the help. Sorry about the 2 unhelpful points, those are just little pet peevs of mine. As for why you hatch first, it is a common misconception that 14 pool is better than hatch first vs a 2 rax. With a hatch first, you get creep at your natural quicker so denying bunkers becomes easier by use of spine crawlers. In addition, you also get that natural's larva sooner, and your first 2 queens up and injecting faster, meaning it becomes easier to replenish lost drones. As for why don't you cancel the hatch...I don't see why you would. It isn't like you can go back in time and 14 pool by canceling it, you've already delayed your pool. Even if that was the case, like I said in my other post, if a terran or protoss sees that you are only on one hatchery's worth of larva, they will just make stuff and kill you because you won't have enough stuff of your own to respond, so it is completely counter productive to cancel that hatch when it is actually what lets you not die. | ||
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Psyclon
Bulgaria2443 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Moving on.. I've never lost control of my mouse from hand sweat.. Talcum powder may clog up your mouse :\ Good luck with that. | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
bunker rushes, while they can be executed skillfully, are not something especially challenging, essentially you have a ton to gain and little to lose. And it's perfectly valid to not like them. | ||
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ligand
United States53 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Tell you what guys, if you feel strongly about this then go make a blog. This isn't the place. | ||
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ligand
United States53 Posts
Thanks for the help! | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 01 2011 16:02 ligand wrote: By stack I meant that if I use another EMP on a unit before the first EMP has vanished. Thanks for the help! What do you mean? EMP does not have an over-time effect, it is instant. If you're talking about the cloak stripping effect then I believe it would just reset the duration, not stack. | ||
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ligand
United States53 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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blinkblue
United States119 Posts
It looks ridiculously fun (I tried it earlier today, cloakshees into 3rax 1fac 2port marine/hellion/ravens, saved up energy on ~5 ravens and fucked shit up) but there are some huge holes and timings where I could get crushed. Would be nice to see how to execute it properly. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On August 01 2011 21:53 imbecile wrote: True or false: Your performance inthe mirror matchups is primarily a measure of your mechanics, your performance in the other matchups is primarily a measure of your decision making. Only if you both do identical builds. I mean absolutly identical, like your both doing your builds off a build script and will not make any deviations Edit: PvP both going 4 gate is more a measure of mechanics but if it's a PvP 4 gate vs 2 gate robo then decision making becomes more important. (not more important then mechanics but more important then in the 4g vs 4g) And every game is a measure of mechanics and decision making. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
What happened to Liquid'Nazgul? Does he no longer play sc2 professionally? Last time I remember him competing was way back in 2010 MLG Dallas. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 01 2011 22:34 tuestresfat wrote: Maybe not the best place to ask this... What happened to Liquid'Nazgul? Does he no longer play sc2 professionally? Last time I remember him competing was way back in 2010 MLG Dallas. He doesn't play SC2 professionally. In fact last MLG he was at he wasn't playing professionally then either. | ||
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JohnyeRobbles
United States1 Post
Why am I not seeing professionals bunker their mineral line to prevent hellion harassment? Clearly this isn't the best strategy or they'd be doing it. I'm just looking for the explanation on why they don't. For an investment of 500 minerals and 4 supply per base, you have neutralized the hellions. Isn't the opportunity cost of losing x scv's and the mining time associated with them much more costly than 500 minerals? | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
On August 02 2011 00:14 JohnyeRobbles wrote: I'm sure we all got our fill of TvT and hellion drops from yesterday's MLG competition. I need someone to set me straight on TvT hellion defense: Why am I not seeing professionals bunker their mineral line to prevent hellion harassment? Clearly this isn't the best strategy or they'd be doing it. I'm just looking for the explanation on why they don't. For an investment of 500 minerals and 4 supply per base, you have neutralized the hellions. Isn't the opportunity cost of losing x scv's and the mining time associated with them much more costly than 500 minerals? Well, it's a mirror matchup after all. If you spend 1,5K on defences in your bases, with 12 supply, Your opponent might just use his funds for a frontal attack. You'll not get all bunkered supplies back in time and just lose the fight. Just like going ZvZ and playing with 5 less drones, economy in a mirror matchup is way more important. That being said, off course sim- city is the best possible response to hellions. Use those SDs ur going to build anyways to wall of, hell, you can even escape if the medivac drops inside ur mneral line :O! | ||
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