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On January 28 2011 09:05 Autunno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 07:26 palookieblue wrote:
I honestly feel that this build isn't refined enough.
Hey, if you're going to all-in, at least work out all the possible timings and advantages you can eek out.
A few points:
1. A reactor takes a bloody long time to build. Over a longer period of time it pays for itself, but if you're pushing @ 5-6 minutes, it is actually a liability.
2. Don't get gas. You're wasting 75 minerals for the refinery + the potential mining time of 3 SCVs just to get the reactor. Don't. Imagine how much stronger your all-in would be if you just ignored gas. The upside to getting gas is perhaps when your opponent scouts, he won't be prepared for the all-in, but I can think of better ways to achieve this.
3. You need to be more specific with how many marines and SCVs you're pushing with.
Did you cut SCVs? Are you rallying all your marines to your force? Etc.
Overall, I'm sure it works pretty well for you, judging by your ranking. I do feel 4/5 naked rax all-ins similar to this are actually stronger, as gas is irrelevant. Also, with just naked rax and constant SCV production you can actually afford a CC just after your first push even when making marines from all your production buildings.
You didn`t read all of it. The reason why he gets the gas + reactor is because he doesn`t want his enemy to think that this an allin build. By the time the pushes come, the ammount of marines he gets is about the same he would get with barracs with no addon.
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On January 28 2011 04:15 ilsamsamchil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 01:24 CrayonKing wrote:
The main problem Z/P's have with terrans is their all-in nature and here comes a guide on how to all in LOL im not hating on the guide or anything im just saying... =P This is a valid post for "strategy forum", goal of the game is to eliminate the enemy off of the map(it's not so clear to some people without the victory condition written out like sc1). One problem with cheese haters is that they claim any timing attack which exploits enemy's weakness after midgame is a "strategy" and anything early on is "cheese". They sound like they are saying "oh you can't attack me when I am not ready yet or you are a nub". Hate on the game(or Blizzard :D), not the Playa. No one should be flamed for trying to win the game as soon as possible, if the opportunity rises.
There's no such thing as "opportunity rises" in cheese. If it were to be a deliberate action based on information gathered that would actually be strategy, not cheese.
This one is "well i'll just do this and hope he doesnt notice and prepare", it involves no decision making.
You can go ahead and do it, but don have the pretension you weren't cheesing Starshaped-cheesing.
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Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it?
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On January 28 2011 18:01 WAAA wrote:
Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it?
maybe you didnt do this by purpose, but now you did.
:D this is too perfect if anyone remembers starshaped from wc3 
+ Show Spoiler +
fucking trash theorycrafter btw
he trolled and claimed to beat the korean night elf ReminD
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On January 28 2011 18:24 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 18:01 WAAA wrote:
Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it? maybe you didnt do this by purpose, but now you did. :D this is too perfect if anyone remembers starshaped from wc3 + Show Spoiler +
fucking trash theorycrafter btw
he trolled and claimed to beat the korean night elf ReminD
http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=147766
Anyway yeah so far when I've tried it the build has been a complete coinflip, I've been able to break through good people putting 4 hellis and their marines at the top of the ramp, but I've also lost to some really bad players who just got a bunker behind a Rax, on top of the ramp which gives them JUST enough surface area to repair but makes it hard for my SCVs to reach the bunker. I don't think this will replace my regular builds in TvT but I'll keep it in mind for when I face people better than me or for maps which blow in mirror (DQ etc).
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On January 28 2011 07:26 palookieblue wrote:
I honestly feel that this build isn't refined enough.
Hey, if you're going to all-in, at least work out all the possible timings and advantages you can eek out.
A few points:
1. A reactor takes a bloody long time to build. Over a longer period of time it pays for itself, but if you're pushing @ 5-6 minutes, it is actually a liability.
2. Don't get gas. You're wasting 75 minerals for the refinery + the potential mining time of 3 SCVs just to get the reactor. Don't. Imagine how much stronger your all-in would be if you just ignored gas. The upside to getting gas is perhaps when your opponent scouts, he won't be prepared for the all-in, but I can think of better ways to achieve this.
3. You need to be more specific with how many marines and SCVs you're pushing with.
Did you cut SCVs? Are you rallying all your marines to your force? Etc.
Overall, I'm sure it works pretty well for you, judging by your ranking. I do feel 4/5 naked rax all-ins similar to this are actually stronger, as gas is irrelevant. Also, with just naked rax and constant SCV production you can actually afford a CC just after your first push even when making marines from all your production buildings.
Watch some of the replays. It's very deceptive and seems to work quite well. As for the exact timings, I'm not sure yet. I've been testing various arbitrary timings but anything before banshee/blueflame/tank.
I'm sure there are ways to get more marines out by the nth minute, but it's not fair to compare my all-in with that, since mine has other benefits (like the fact it looks innocent enough).
On January 28 2011 17:55 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 04:15 ilsamsamchil wrote:On January 28 2011 01:24 CrayonKing wrote:
The main problem Z/P's have with terrans is their all-in nature and here comes a guide on how to all in LOL im not hating on the guide or anything im just saying... =P This is a valid post for "strategy forum", goal of the game is to eliminate the enemy off of the map(it's not so clear to some people without the victory condition written out like sc1). One problem with cheese haters is that they claim any timing attack which exploits enemy's weakness after midgame is a "strategy" and anything early on is "cheese". They sound like they are saying "oh you can't attack me when I am not ready yet or you are a nub". Hate on the game(or Blizzard :D), not the Playa. No one should be flamed for trying to win the game as soon as possible, if the opportunity rises. There's no such thing as "opportunity rises" in cheese. If it were to be a deliberate action based on information gathered that would actually be strategy, not cheese. This one is "well i'll just do this and hope he doesnt notice and prepare", it involves no decision making. You can go ahead and do it, but don have the pretension you weren't cheesing Starshaped-cheesing.
Well, to be fair, in most of the cases you will add the proxy after scouting, so you can feasibly abort the project if you see a wall-in or something else you feel would be unbeatable with mass marine/SCV.
On January 28 2011 18:01 WAAA wrote:
Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it?
Probably from Warcraft 3. I play(ed) at a fairly high level and compete(d) in leagues/cups. Most notably I beat the (then) best player in the world in a Zotac Cup. And no, that isn't a 'troll,' it actually happened:
http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=147766
I've also beaten other big names but that's probably the most notable. At the moment I'm in DkH Mutligaming's WC3 squad but since I've been focusing on SC2 lately I'm not really playing WC3 anymore. I find it way too hard to juggle the two games and keep a high level in both >_<
On January 28 2011 20:13 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 18:24 nath wrote:On January 28 2011 18:01 WAAA wrote:
Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it? maybe you didnt do this by purpose, but now you did. :D this is too perfect if anyone remembers starshaped from wc3 + Show Spoiler +
fucking trash theorycrafter btw
he trolled and claimed to beat the korean night elf ReminD
http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=147766Anyway yeah so far when I've tried it the build has been a complete coinflip, I've been able to break through good people putting 4 hellis and their marines at the top of the ramp, but I've also lost to some really bad players who just got a bunker behind a Rax, on top of the ramp which gives them JUST enough surface area to repair but makes it hard for my SCVs to reach the bunker. I don't think this will replace my regular builds in TvT but I'll keep it in mind for when I face people better than me or for maps which blow in mirror (DQ etc).
Yeah, I created the build for the simple reason of avoiding a long game on maps I can't stand in TvT. I'm sure it's not some unbeatable game-breaking strategy, but it's a viable 'cheese' that's good to be familiar with, I think.
Edit: Also, if anyone wants to post replays of the all-in failing, that could be interesting.
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This build was done in a more optimized fashion in a TvP on Blistering Sands in the GSL.
The cleaner way to do it is:
12rax
13ref
15OC, marine, then reactor
Remove workers from gas after 50 gas
Make 3 more raxes (total: 5 marines producing at once, which is the max you can do while producing supply depots)
This is the most optimal way to do it while getting gas - this is equally deceptive because your opponent sees the gas and your first marine can force the scouting SCV out before he sees you take workers out of gas.
You're going to get a lot of flames for naming a build that basically already existed with your name in it. Sort of bad form.
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Could you read through the thread before posting? And/or watch the replay(s).
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builds like this make me disappointed that 3-4 SCV+mules can make this a win/not-lose situation, but I bookmarked this page when I decide to switch from zerg to terran.
oh, and when you people talk about "all in" failing, it's usually because the Terran failed to transition into midgame properly, since this build allows you to break even economically.
for proof, look at any score screen after using this build order, with mules the economy is even, assuming you're micro is decent enough to damage his economy.
i wish 6 pool was this deadly, (lol wall-in)
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On January 28 2011 20:37 Asparagus wrote:
builds like this make me disappointed that 3-4 SCV+mules can make this a win/not-lose situation, but I bookmarked this page when I decide to switch from zerg to terran.
oh, and when you people talk about "all in" failing, it's usually because the Terran failed to transition into midgame properly, since this build allows you to break even economically.
for proof, look at any score screen after using this build order, with mules the economy is even, assuming you're micro is decent enough to damage his economy.
i wish 6 pool was this deadly, (lol wall-in)
Any all-in can be transitioned out of if you do enough damage. But rare is the occasion when you all-in and don't win or lose right there. But sure, it can happen.
However, if you 'broke even' economically in TvT while doing this you'd still probably be too far behind tech-wise, since he'd have something like 1-1-1 going and you'd have 2 reactor barracks and 0 gas. Your best bet, if doing this, is to stick to it and either win or lose. I doubt trying to transition into a mid-game is ever the best option.
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On January 28 2011 20:43 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 20:37 Asparagus wrote:
builds like this make me disappointed that 3-4 SCV+mules can make this a win/not-lose situation, but I bookmarked this page when I decide to switch from zerg to terran.
oh, and when you people talk about "all in" failing, it's usually because the Terran failed to transition into midgame properly, since this build allows you to break even economically.
for proof, look at any score screen after using this build order, with mules the economy is even, assuming you're micro is decent enough to damage his economy.
i wish 6 pool was this deadly, (lol wall-in) Any all-in can be transitioned out of if you do enough damage. But rare is the occasion when you all-in and don't win or lose right there. But sure, it can happen. However, if you 'broke even' economically in TvT while doing this you'd still probably be too far behind tech-wise, since he'd have something like 1-1-1 going and you'd have 2 reactor barracks and 0 gas. Your best bet, if doing this, is to stick to it and either win or lose. I doubt trying to transition into a mid-game is ever the best option.
I can't see a situation that wasn't the (all-in)er's fault where you'd do your build and somehow break even with a 1/1/1 player and be at a disadvantage. At 6 minutes which you're implying the cheese takes place, I have enough time to either tech somewhat, or mass an army (which your build has an advantage for) not both simultaneously, so if you're saying you'd be behind a 1-1-1 you've done something wrong, if done correctly you've delayed his tech to the point where he's as behind as you. that's generally how "breaking even" works.
Actually, one way I could see this happening is if he blindly builds the direct counter to your build.
But then you can pull back and play the game.
*edit* and no, a failed 6pool/7rr is a gg on the spot, we do not have mules.
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On January 28 2011 20:50 Asparagus wrote:
But then you can pull back and play the game.
I just lost the game...
http://www.losethegame.com/
on topic: If someone has 4 probes (like you do) but has gas piled up (not very probable), has a factory and a starport (without an add on, lets assume you have killed it) and you have 3 barracks only (one of which is in a proxy location) you are in somewhat a disadventage.
If the enemy has his add ons, has siege tech researched, has enough to begin a banshee etc. then you are in a huge disadventage.
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On January 28 2011 21:06 DestroManiak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 20:50 Asparagus wrote:
But then you can pull back and play the game.
I just lost the game... http://www.losethegame.com/on topic: If someone has 4 probes (like you do) but has gas piled up (not very probable), has a factory and a starport (without an add on, lets assume you have killed it) and you have 3 barracks only (one of which is in a proxy location) you are in somewhat a disadventage. If the enemy has his add ons, has siege tech researched, has enough to begin a banshee etc. then you are in a huge disadventage.
: P glad you caught the reference.
but what I'm saying is...
ok view it in terms of a zvz, since I can explain it the best this way.
just say in 6 minutes I can get a fast lair, a FE, and get roach speed researched.
None of this tech that I have (clearly advantageous of a zerg who stays at 1 base and masses speedlings with the same amount of time+money as I) will matter when his army arrives at my base at 6 minutes regardless.
Now back to your example, if you managed to get an army to beat my all in, while getting the tech to clearly pull ahead, then as far as I'm concerned, I messed up somewhere, it's not the builds fault, that's the only point I'm trying to make. Unless you ran into like the direct counter (like a bunker wall lol)
Sorry if I sound argumentative, hi! I'm asparagus nice to meet you.
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You do not necessarily have to make a big mistake for your rush to fail.
It is quite possible that you can lose your force but manage to take down lots of enemy workers too, hopefully destroy an add-on too.
No problem, the point of a forum is to discuss
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On January 28 2011 20:50 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 20:43 Starshaped wrote:On January 28 2011 20:37 Asparagus wrote:
builds like this make me disappointed that 3-4 SCV+mules can make this a win/not-lose situation, but I bookmarked this page when I decide to switch from zerg to terran.
oh, and when you people talk about "all in" failing, it's usually because the Terran failed to transition into midgame properly, since this build allows you to break even economically.
for proof, look at any score screen after using this build order, with mules the economy is even, assuming you're micro is decent enough to damage his economy.
i wish 6 pool was this deadly, (lol wall-in) Any all-in can be transitioned out of if you do enough damage. But rare is the occasion when you all-in and don't win or lose right there. But sure, it can happen. However, if you 'broke even' economically in TvT while doing this you'd still probably be too far behind tech-wise, since he'd have something like 1-1-1 going and you'd have 2 reactor barracks and 0 gas. Your best bet, if doing this, is to stick to it and either win or lose. I doubt trying to transition into a mid-game is ever the best option. I can't see a situation that wasn't the (all-in)er's fault where you'd do your build and somehow break even with a 1/1/1 player and be at a disadvantage. At 6 minutes which you're implying the cheese takes place, I have enough time to either tech somewhat, or mass an army (which your build has an advantage for) not both simultaneously, so if you're saying you'd be behind a 1-1-1 you've done something wrong, if done correctly you've delayed his tech to the point where he's as behind as you. that's generally how "breaking even" works. Actually, one way I could see this happening is if he blindly builds the direct counter to your build. But then you can pull back and play the game.*edit* and no, a failed 6pool/7rr is a gg on the spot, we do not have mules.
Haha, I enjoy this. Have fun switching to terran. All in a bunch, and then realize a mule is equal to 3 workers. If a protoss or zerg would all in and pull there workers(wich they won't because drones and probes don't synergize with zealots and zerglings, but marines and scv's do) they would just leave 3 drones/probes behind. Wich they have extra because of larva/chronoboost.
So many silly people in this world, who don't think but just follow the masses.
But then you can pull back and play the game.
You CAN'T. Too much behind in tech. He makes 1 siege tanks with siege and you are dead.
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Used it succesfully in masters today. Complaints ensued.
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EPT
