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Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
1. This is a quick all-in. The reactor build time is extremely long. Wouldn't you do better to build 5 Barracks? 2. You place a barracks, then reactor, barracks, reactor, barracks. This is going to stagger your production a lot, to the point you're getting little benefit from the third barracks. Wouldn't a build like Barracks, reactor, hault all production, barracks, barracks, barracks, continue production, end up with with more marines? | ||
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
On January 26 2011 03:31 Shikyo wrote: Why get a gas, I'm totally confused. I'd just make 5 Barracks instead, that way you can keep making Marines even while extra rax are building and don't waste time on useless gas. First of all getting gas makes it harder to scout what you are doing. After the reactor is built you dont need to keep harvesters there. Also, barracks + the two extra marines you can build is 200 minerals more than a reactor which you probobly won't afford without cutting scv's and buildings. I haven't tried it out myself but I doubt the difference is that big. | ||
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On January 26 2011 03:39 Chill wrote: Questions: 1. This is a quick all-in. The reactor build time is extremely long. Wouldn't you do better to build 5 Barracks? 2. You place a barracks, then reactor, barracks, reactor, barracks. This is going to stagger your production a lot, to the point you're getting little benefit from the third barracks. Wouldn't a build like Barracks, reactor, hault all production, barracks, barracks, barracks, continue production, end up with with more marines? think it's mostly so you get a gas and don't look suspicious for having no gas and bit later on no expo, but yeah the 2nd reactor makes little sense, you lose your timing for it to pay off | ||
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DestroManiak
257 Posts
On January 26 2011 03:35 natewOw wrote: You took a strat that has existed for a long time, and named it after yourself. How is this NOT claiming to have invented it? The concept Marine+SCV all in has existed for a very long time. And however slight it may be, there can be different variations Starshape has posted his version of it, you may think that it is arrogant for him to name it after himself, and you wouldnt be completely wrong but trying to PROVE that you are right about such a subjective matter seems wrong to me. On topic: I agree with Chill's questions; reactors take 50 seconds to build and in the following 50 seconds (total of 100 seconds) you have created 4 marines at which point you have JUST caught up with a non reactored barrack (100/25=4 marines) So unless your reactored barrack has created at least 4 marines, you have sacraficed firepower. Maybe the first barrack you create could actually fullfil this requirement, but reactoring the proceeding barracks will most likely hinder your initial firepower. But even then, you have build a refinery. Of course that could help you disguise your all in so I cannot completely disapprove. I would like to see the replays of this tactic working against the opponents of your level (2900 masters) | ||
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
On January 26 2011 03:31 Shikyo wrote: Why get a gas, I'm totally confused. I'd just make 5 Barracks instead, that way you can keep making Marines even while extra rax are building and don't waste time on useless gas. Mostly because of how your build is percievd. If your opponent sees no gas then it's either FE or some funky all-in. Whereas gas + reactor doesn't scream "all-in!" as much. Plus if he sees no gas he's more likely to spend an early scan just to be safe if his scout is denied. On January 26 2011 03:35 natewOw wrote: You took a strat that has existed for a long time, and named it after yourself. How is this NOT claiming to have invented it? The build is what I mean when I mean 'Starshaped's Marine all-in.' Again, I didn't invent the overall strategy, the idea to make a lot of marines early and go kill your opponent, but this build that works towards that goal. On January 26 2011 03:39 Chill wrote: Questions: 1. This is a quick all-in. The reactor build time is extremely long. Wouldn't you do better to build 5 Barracks? 2. You place a barracks, then reactor, barracks, reactor, barracks. This is going to stagger your production a lot, to the point you're getting little benefit from the third barracks. Wouldn't a build like Barracks, reactor, hault all production, barracks, barracks, barracks, continue production, end up with with more marines? The idea is to mask what you're doing as much as possible, like I already mentioned. Yes, there will be a delay between first marine and actually getting a large army, but it isn't really that big of an issue. The third barracks is simply a mineral-sink. Arguably you can forgo it to have a bigger bank, thus being able to pull more SVCs/survive off your bank longer if the game drags on. | ||
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thesmoosh
113 Posts
The tech lab opener is also less vulnerable to super early cheeses meaning you'd be able to use it against other races as well. What do you think? | ||
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
On January 26 2011 04:16 thesmoosh wrote: Have you tried going rax > gas then mine only 125 gas for stim? I'm not at my desktop to check, but I think you can have stim hit around 6:30 to 7. I would think stim wouuld be even better since you'll have SCVs to tank the damage. The tech lab opener is also less vulnerable to super early cheeses meaning you'd be able to use it against other races as well. What do you think? Well barracks finishes at roughly 2:45, maybe a few seconds earlier if you're good. A marine takes 25 second, tech lab 25 s and stim 140. With three SCV:s at a geyser you have the minerals for stim. So at ~6 min you could have your stim. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
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aisight
United States145 Posts
On January 26 2011 03:57 Starshaped wrote: The idea is to mask what you're doing as much as possible, like I already mentioned. Yes, there will be a delay between first marine and actually getting a large army, but it isn't really that big of an issue. The third barracks is simply a mineral-sink. Arguably you can forgo it to have a bigger bank, thus being able to pull more SVCs/survive off your bank longer if the game drags on. If you're trying to mask your strat, what's the benefit of 3rax+2reactor over 4rax+1reactor? Just put a reactor on the one in your main while proxying two or three. Since you can build multiple Barracks simultaneously as opposed to spending 110 seconds on a Barracks and then a Reactor, this is severely less time-consuming for the same level of production, as well as requiring half the gas. | ||
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ArtnoC
United States2 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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SaLaYa
United States363 Posts
That being said, I find all-in's to be a fun break from macro games. | ||
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thesmoosh
113 Posts
And the OP didn't say he invented the strategy. He posted a build. There are lots and lots of ways of doing a strategy, each with advantages and disadvantages. This one for example looks very innocent when they scout your base, that's the power it has. Idra and Jinro, both macro players have shown us in the past two GSL's that they will cheese or do sneaky strategies from time to time. They do it maybe one game out of 10, but the fact that they are capable of doing it forces their opponents to do a lot of things they may normally not do. | ||
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thesmoosh
113 Posts
On January 26 2011 04:50 Mowr wrote: Well barracks finishes at roughly 2:45, maybe a few seconds earlier if you're good. A marine takes 25 second, tech lab 25 s and stim 140. With three SCV:s at a geyser you have the minerals for stim. So at ~6 min you could have your stim. You actually don't have the money to get stim immediately if you go rax > marine/oc > techlab, unless you let your rax idle which isn't ideal. I would say get two marines then tech lab then stem. That way the two marines can deny a scouting worker as well, and you end up with no idle time and exactly enough money to get stim right after the tech lab finishes. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
That said this build really pisses me off with how many people are doing approximately the same thing :p, I actually have to scout in TvT now which sucks. | ||
Poopi
France12904 Posts
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
A replay pack is in the works. I have a few but in some I make silly mistakes, but maybe they're good enough anyway. Just used it to beat a Terran who destroyed me quite convincingly in a prior game, so that felt nice ^_^ I'm quite busy tomorrow but will try to have the replay pack sometime around then (depending if I get TvT on good maps on ladder =)). And I considered just making a 3rd rax at my proxy rax instead of a reactor but it doesn't work out mineral-wise. I'm really thinking 2 reactor is quite optimal, but we'll see. | ||
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ilsamsamchil
155 Posts
I don't see what's wrong with him naming this build, I mean there are protoss putting their name on every variation of fast expo after cybernetics core lol. I was questioning the second reactor as well, but I tried it and it hits right before siege or cloak so it worked out at the ned. | ||
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Moriarity
United States91 Posts
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
On January 26 2011 12:31 Moriarity wrote: I could see a simple scan and a smart opponent holding this with little trouble. If you're gathering gas when he scouts you with his initial scv and then if he scans after you take the scv's off gas it'll be a big warning sign of marine all-in incoming. Of course. Like with any cheese it won't work if it's scouted in time. But unlike say a 6-pool, you can scout/scan him yourself and see what your best response would be. You haven't cut any harvesters and you still have an army to defend with so you have the possibility to tech or expand. No it will not be a smooth transition but you aren't automatically screwed if it happens in just your average ladder game. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10361 Posts
Anyways thanks for sharing, the BO isn't very original/ground-breaking etc. ofc, but it's still useful and a good guide :D And yes, please show some replays! haha | ||
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