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Hi there!
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran. TvT is notably difficult to all-in in, and even harder to all-in early. As such, I've racked my brain trying to come up with different all-ins and I do have a fair share. However, for maps like Junle Basin and Delta Quadrant, the only way to avoid a large macro game is to win really early. Jungle Basin has the added advantage that a lot of people will greedily fast expand on it.
So, anyway, what I've developed is a variation on the Maka all-in we can find in TvP. It goes as follows:
12rax
13gas
14rax (proxy)
14marine
15OC
Add reactor to the 12rax after first marine
Add reactor to the proxy rax as soon as its done (at this point remove SCVs from gas)
Add a third rax as minerals pile up
Pump marines
Pull every single SCV but 2-3 (they, along with mules and a small bank, will be enough to keep your macro going)
Attack
When to attack depends, and needs to be experimented with more, but somewhere around 5-6 minutes in-game time.
The SCVs main priority is to surround any bunkers, to easily let you snipe them with focus fire (and potentially trap marines). After this is done it all comes down to micro.
I'm still working on it and have had good results thus far, so I thought I'd share it with anyone else looking for that illustrious quick all-in TvT strategy! It's always nice to have the option to end any game quickly, in any match up, so that's what this hopefully can do. My other all-ins in TvT can stretch the game as far as 15-20 minutes, so this build is a nice alternative.
Starshaped
Edit: If anyone's curious, I'm around 2900 Master EU.
Edit 2: Replays:
http://replayfu.com/r/KJTKWq
http://replayfu.com/r/753gPm
http://replayfu.com/r/h7fCdt
http://replayfu.com/r/8dp3ps
Not perfect games by any means, but it's what I have to show for now to give you an idea of the build in action.
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Firstly, have I missed something? Since when is there an [S] tag and what category of posts does it represent?
Secondly, how can you not have any replays? Please add replays so we can all see the build in action.
A Terran who loves all-ins? Clearly, you jest.
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On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
Hi there!
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran. TvT is notably difficult to all-in in, and even harder to all-in early.
Ummmmmm, Terran are incredibly easy to all-in with. Also, "your" strat is the same strat being used by half the Terrans in GSL. Frankly, I'm pretty sure everyone is a little sick of it by now.
Try playing a real game for once.
User was warned for this post
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On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran
I admit, seeing this made me giggle big-time. On a more serious note, about the actual gameplan, it looks quite solid on paper from the 'deceiving' pov - you show gas and scanning will reveal only a reactor'd rax, which will probably indicate standard play to many. Sad part is that with your timing, the push comes so late that you may lose to hellions/walled off ramp or even banshees.
anyway - gl with your all-in endeavours !
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On January 26 2011 02:12 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran I admit, seeing this made me giggle big-time. On a more serious note, about the actual gameplan, it looks quite solid on paper from the 'deceiving' pov - you show gas and scanning will reveal only a reactor'd rax, which will probably indicate standard play to many. Sad part is that with your timing, the push comes so late that you may lose to hellions/walled off ramp or even banshees. anyway - gl with your all-in endeavours !
Protoss probably all in way more then terrans, that's my expierence atleast. Banshee's without cloack are out at 6:30 so this rush is in time. You will lose to a wall off most certainly. But that he will only do if he scouts the hidden rax. So yeah, this is just a good cheese. I've encountered 2 rax all ins before. But that is easily defended by A. Making a bunker. Or if that fails, make a hellion and micro it well. This looks more refined. I might use it, sometimes I just can't be bothered to play TvT on a map like Delta Quadrant.
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On January 26 2011 02:02 Obsolescence wrote:
Firstly, have I missed something? Since when is there an [S] tag and what category of posts does it represent?
Secondly, how can you not have any replays? Please add replays so we can all see the build in action.
A Terran who loves all-ins? Clearly, you jest.
I was thinking it meant Strategy, but now I see there's no such tag. I'll just remove it. I'll post some replays later.
On January 26 2011 02:05 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
Hi there!
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran. TvT is notably difficult to all-in in, and even harder to all-in early. Ummmmmm, Terran are incredibly easy to all-in with. Also, "your" strat is the same strat being used by half the Terrans in GSL. Frankly, I'm pretty sure everyone is a little sick of it by now. Try playing a real game for once.
Try reading my post before responding.
On January 26 2011 02:12 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran I admit, seeing this made me giggle big-time. On a more serious note, about the actual gameplan, it looks quite solid on paper from the 'deceiving' pov - you show gas and scanning will reveal only a reactor'd rax, which will probably indicate standard play to many. Sad part is that with your timing, the push comes so late that you may lose to hellions/walled off ramp or even banshees. anyway - gl with your all-in endeavours !
Well, they won't likely scan by then anyway, but yeah, it is deceptive alright. Wall-off might be an issue, but people rarely do that in TvT. Hellions might be an issue but really, unless he has quite a few and blueflame, marines can deal with them well. banshees might also pose a threat, we'll see.
Thanks =)
Edit: It seems i can't change the topic name. If a mod sees this I would appreciate if you remove the [S] tag.
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oGsTOP's marine all in i the gsl finals on Steppes (I think) was roughly
12 racks - reactor after first marine
13 gas
15/16 OC
~19 2x racks + a fourth racks shortly after
all in with everything and hit the other base at ~6 min.
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On January 26 2011 02:05 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
Hi there!
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran. TvT is notably difficult to all-in in, and even harder to all-in early. Ummmmmm, Terran are incredibly easy to all-in with. Also, "your" strat is the same strat being used by half the Terrans in GSL. Frankly, I'm pretty sure everyone is a little sick of it by now. Try playing a real game for once.
Try reading my post before responding. [/QUOTE]
I did read your post. You are clearly new to the game, so I'll give you a little slack. Please see this person's post, which proves me right.
On January 26 2011 02:32 Mowr wrote:
oGsTOP's marine all in i the gsl finals on Steppes (I think) was roughly
12 racks - reactor after first marine
13 gas
15/16 OC
~19 2x racks + a fourth racks shortly after
all in with everything and hit the other base at ~6 min.
Your strategy is far from original.
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You're embarrassing yourself. Just stop posting.
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On January 26 2011 02:49 Starshaped wrote:
You're embarrassing yourself. Just stop posting.
Actually, I'm pretty sure you're the one embarrassing yourself; you can't even defend your "own" strategy. Anything I post, you respond with a troll-ish 1-liner. Please add something to the discussion, or else the mods should temp ban this kid.
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On January 26 2011 02:43 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 02:05 natewOw wrote:
Ummmmmm, Terran are incredibly easy to all-in with. Also, "your" strat is the same strat being used by half the Terrans in GSL. Frankly, I'm pretty sure everyone is a little sick of it by now.
Try playing a real game for once. I did read your post. You are clearly new to the game, so I'll give you a little slack. Please see this person's post, which proves me right. Your strategy is far from original.
You need to chill out.
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um i usually do mine at 3 marines with all SCVs and liek 3 marines qued on 2 rax before the need to build another supply depot i usually lose a couple scvs to the bunker surround otherwise its an auto win.
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On January 26 2011 02:53 b0urne420 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 02:43 natewOw wrote:On January 26 2011 02:05 natewOw wrote:
Ummmmmm, Terran are incredibly easy to all-in with. Also, "your" strat is the same strat being used by half the Terrans in GSL. Frankly, I'm pretty sure everyone is a little sick of it by now.
Try playing a real game for once. I did read your post. You are clearly new to the game, so I'll give you a little slack. Please see this person's post, which proves me right. Your strategy is far from original. You need to chill out.
Is somebody raging? I don't believe so. Contribute to the conversation please.
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On January 26 2011 02:49 Starshaped wrote:
You're embarrassing yourself. Just stop posting.
dunno wha'ts the most embarassing, trying to put your name on an all-in that exists since the dawn of time or pointing that fact to you... really tough call
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On January 26 2011 03:04 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 02:49 Starshaped wrote:
You're embarrassing yourself. Just stop posting.
dunno wha'ts the most embarassing, trying to put your name on an all-in that exists since the dawn of time or pointing that fact to you... really tough call
I'm not claiming to have invented marine/SCV all-in...
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Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 02:43 natewOw wrote:On January 26 2011 02:05 natewOw wrote:On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
Hi there!
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran. TvT is notably difficult to all-in in, and even harder to all-in early. Ummmmmm, Terran are incredibly easy to all-in with. Also, "your" strat is the same strat being used by half the Terrans in GSL. Frankly, I'm pretty sure everyone is a little sick of it by now. Try playing a real game for once. Try reading my post before responding. I did read your post. You are clearly new to the game, so I'll give you a little slack. Please see this person's post, which proves me right. Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 02:32 Mowr wrote:
oGsTOP's marine all in i the gsl finals on Steppes (I think) was roughly
12 racks - reactor after first marine
13 gas
15/16 OC
~19 2x racks + a fourth racks shortly after
all in with everything and hit the other base at ~6 min. Your strategy is far from original.
You really didn't read the post because you said he's new to the game, even when in the end of his post he said he's 2900 masters on EU. That doesn't seem new to me.
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Why get a gas, I'm totally confused. I'd just make 5 Barracks instead, that way you can keep making Marines even while extra rax are building and don't waste time on useless gas.
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On January 26 2011 03:31 Shikyo wrote:
Why get a gas, I'm totally confused. I'd just make 5 Barracks instead, that way you can keep making Marines even while extra rax are building and don't waste time on useless gas.
If he doesn't see an expo, it would be super clear if he scans your base for gas that you are all-in. Atleast that's what I'd expect
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On January 26 2011 03:25 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:04 cArn- wrote:On January 26 2011 02:49 Starshaped wrote:
You're embarrassing yourself. Just stop posting.
dunno wha'ts the most embarassing, trying to put your name on an all-in that exists since the dawn of time or pointing that fact to you... really tough call I'm not claiming to have invented marine/SCV all-in...
You took a strat that has existed for a long time, and named it after yourself. How is this NOT claiming to have invented it?
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This thread got derailed faster than anything I've seen before >_>
It's gonna turn into a huge ban-trap xD.
Settle down guys, we know it's not an original idea and he posted that in the OP, but it's still laying out the basic build and idea, which might help some players more than others.
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Calgary25986 Posts
Questions:
1. This is a quick all-in. The reactor build time is extremely long. Wouldn't you do better to build 5 Barracks?
2. You place a barracks, then reactor, barracks, reactor, barracks. This is going to stagger your production a lot, to the point you're getting little benefit from the third barracks. Wouldn't a build like Barracks, reactor, hault all production, barracks, barracks, barracks, continue production, end up with with more marines?
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On January 26 2011 03:31 Shikyo wrote:
Why get a gas, I'm totally confused. I'd just make 5 Barracks instead, that way you can keep making Marines even while extra rax are building and don't waste time on useless gas.
First of all getting gas makes it harder to scout what you are doing. After the reactor is built you dont need to keep harvesters there.
Also, barracks + the two extra marines you can build is 200 minerals more than a reactor which you probobly won't afford without cutting scv's and buildings. I haven't tried it out myself but I doubt the difference is that big.
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On January 26 2011 03:39 Chill wrote:
Questions:
1. This is a quick all-in. The reactor build time is extremely long. Wouldn't you do better to build 5 Barracks?
2. You place a barracks, then reactor, barracks, reactor, barracks. This is going to stagger your production a lot, to the point you're getting little benefit from the third barracks. Wouldn't a build like Barracks, reactor, hault all production, barracks, barracks, barracks, continue production, end up with with more marines?
think it's mostly so you get a gas and don't look suspicious for having no gas and bit later on no expo, but yeah the 2nd reactor makes little sense, you lose your timing for it to pay off
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On January 26 2011 03:35 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:25 Starshaped wrote:On January 26 2011 03:04 cArn- wrote:On January 26 2011 02:49 Starshaped wrote:
You're embarrassing yourself. Just stop posting.
dunno wha'ts the most embarassing, trying to put your name on an all-in that exists since the dawn of time or pointing that fact to you... really tough call I'm not claiming to have invented marine/SCV all-in... You took a strat that has existed for a long time, and named it after yourself. How is this NOT claiming to have invented it?
The concept Marine+SCV all in has existed for a very long time.
And however slight it may be, there can be different variations
Starshape has posted his version of it, you may think that it is arrogant for him to name it after himself, and you wouldnt be completely wrong but trying to PROVE that you are right about such a subjective matter seems wrong to me.
On topic:
I agree with Chill's questions; reactors take 50 seconds to build and in the following 50 seconds (total of 100 seconds) you have created 4 marines at which point you have JUST caught up with a non reactored barrack (100/25=4 marines)
So unless your reactored barrack has created at least 4 marines, you have sacraficed firepower.
Maybe the first barrack you create could actually fullfil this requirement, but reactoring the proceeding barracks will most likely hinder your initial firepower.
But even then, you have build a refinery. Of course that could help you disguise your all in so I cannot completely disapprove.
I would like to see the replays of this tactic working against the opponents of your level (2900 masters)
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On January 26 2011 03:31 Shikyo wrote:
Why get a gas, I'm totally confused. I'd just make 5 Barracks instead, that way you can keep making Marines even while extra rax are building and don't waste time on useless gas.
Mostly because of how your build is percievd. If your opponent sees no gas then it's either FE or some funky all-in. Whereas gas + reactor doesn't scream "all-in!" as much. Plus if he sees no gas he's more likely to spend an early scan just to be safe if his scout is denied.
On January 26 2011 03:35 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:25 Starshaped wrote:On January 26 2011 03:04 cArn- wrote:On January 26 2011 02:49 Starshaped wrote:
You're embarrassing yourself. Just stop posting.
dunno wha'ts the most embarassing, trying to put your name on an all-in that exists since the dawn of time or pointing that fact to you... really tough call I'm not claiming to have invented marine/SCV all-in... You took a strat that has existed for a long time, and named it after yourself. How is this NOT claiming to have invented it?
The build is what I mean when I mean 'Starshaped's Marine all-in.' Again, I didn't invent the overall strategy, the idea to make a lot of marines early and go kill your opponent, but this build that works towards that goal.
On January 26 2011 03:39 Chill wrote:
Questions:
1. This is a quick all-in. The reactor build time is extremely long. Wouldn't you do better to build 5 Barracks?
2. You place a barracks, then reactor, barracks, reactor, barracks. This is going to stagger your production a lot, to the point you're getting little benefit from the third barracks. Wouldn't a build like Barracks, reactor, hault all production, barracks, barracks, barracks, continue production, end up with with more marines?
The idea is to mask what you're doing as much as possible, like I already mentioned. Yes, there will be a delay between first marine and actually getting a large army, but it isn't really that big of an issue. The third barracks is simply a mineral-sink. Arguably you can forgo it to have a bigger bank, thus being able to pull more SVCs/survive off your bank longer if the game drags on.
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Have you tried going rax > gas then mine only 125 gas for stim? I'm not at my desktop to check, but I think you can have stim hit around 6:30 to 7. I would think stim wouuld be even better since you'll have SCVs to tank the damage.
The tech lab opener is also less vulnerable to super early cheeses meaning you'd be able to use it against other races as well. What do you think?
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On January 26 2011 04:16 thesmoosh wrote:
Have you tried going rax > gas then mine only 125 gas for stim? I'm not at my desktop to check, but I think you can have stim hit around 6:30 to 7. I would think stim wouuld be even better since you'll have SCVs to tank the damage.
The tech lab opener is also less vulnerable to super early cheeses meaning you'd be able to use it against other races as well. What do you think?
Well barracks finishes at roughly 2:45, maybe a few seconds earlier if you're good. A marine takes 25 second, tech lab 25 s and stim 140. With three SCV:s at a geyser you have the minerals for stim. So at ~6 min you could have your stim.
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United States17042 Posts
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On January 26 2011 03:57 Starshaped wrote:
The idea is to mask what you're doing as much as possible, like I already mentioned. Yes, there will be a delay between first marine and actually getting a large army, but it isn't really that big of an issue. The third barracks is simply a mineral-sink. Arguably you can forgo it to have a bigger bank, thus being able to pull more SVCs/survive off your bank longer if the game drags on.
If you're trying to mask your strat, what's the benefit of 3rax+2reactor over 4rax+1reactor? Just put a reactor on the one in your main while proxying two or three. Since you can build multiple Barracks simultaneously as opposed to spending 110 seconds on a Barracks and then a Reactor, this is severely less time-consuming for the same level of production, as well as requiring half the gas.
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Terran has an all in build?
User was warned for this post
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It's kinda harsh to bash on someone that has posted a guide. No matter what people post, you need to respect them for contributing.
That being said, I find all-in's to be a fun break from macro games.
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Before you start mouthing off about all-ins and all that, understand that this is a game of limited information. That there are advantages to having unexpected builds up your sleeve. MKP's gas first banshee on JB vs Jinro was most certainly an unexpected but planned and practice build. You could certainly say it was cheesy to a certain extent -- I consider cheese to be strats that are easily countered if scouted -- but it was an incredibly clever thing for him to do after going 1 rax expo into marines all the time.
And the OP didn't say he invented the strategy. He posted a build. There are lots and lots of ways of doing a strategy, each with advantages and disadvantages. This one for example looks very innocent when they scout your base, that's the power it has.
Idra and Jinro, both macro players have shown us in the past two GSL's that they will cheese or do sneaky strategies from time to time. They do it maybe one game out of 10, but the fact that they are capable of doing it forces their opponents to do a lot of things they may normally not do.
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On January 26 2011 04:50 Mowr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 04:16 thesmoosh wrote:
Have you tried going rax > gas then mine only 125 gas for stim? I'm not at my desktop to check, but I think you can have stim hit around 6:30 to 7. I would think stim wouuld be even better since you'll have SCVs to tank the damage.
The tech lab opener is also less vulnerable to super early cheeses meaning you'd be able to use it against other races as well. What do you think? Well barracks finishes at roughly 2:45, maybe a few seconds earlier if you're good. A marine takes 25 second, tech lab 25 s and stim 140. With three SCV:s at a geyser you have the minerals for stim. So at ~6 min you could have your stim.
You actually don't have the money to get stim immediately if you go rax > marine/oc > techlab, unless you let your rax idle which isn't ideal. I would say get two marines then tech lab then stem. That way the two marines can deny a scouting worker as well, and you end up with no idle time and exactly enough money to get stim right after the tech lab finishes.
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Basically every version of this all in depends on arrival before seige mode and stealth, so I would say this is a very good version as its key to be putting down that gas. As long as you get a good surround on the bunker so the marines cant escape it should gg most opponents.
That said this build really pisses me off with how many people are doing approximately the same thing :p, I actually have to scout in TvT now which sucks.
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France12904 Posts
Thx u OP, since I hated TvT for a long time, 90% of my TvTs were all-in with so many variants. As the OP said, the thing is not only having the best amount of marines at t time (which is generally before siege tank upgrade, or pre igniter upgrade if the opponent was planning a blue flame drop), BUT not letting the opponent know that you are plannig an all-in, cuz with wall-in/bunker as react it's really easy to deny any marine/scv allin. This is why if you no gas and plan to atk at the 5/6min mark you will get crushed : the opponent will think A- you are FEing, and scout ur expo to be sure. B- you wanna do some tricky marine/scv allin, and react. Also, ur build is good I think, but you need to mapcontrol with ur marines, fight for xelnaga control for example. I am not sure right now for the banshee timing, but if banshee opening counters ur timings (I dont think so cuz nogas marine / scv allins HARD counters banshee openings as far as I know) you can build an ebay before ur rush. one build I use these days that is kinda effective is : wall at the bottom of the ramp (the opponent scout is always too late to be able to sneak in my base), and at 14 proxy a rax. I'm not really sure of what my opponent thinks seeing such a wall so what will you think if you see a wall at the bottom of the choke in tvt? Anywayd I'm at his choke with all scv and 3-4 rines I think (not sure). I will try your build too, I used it but without proxy, I guess I will be less screwed with proxy rax reactor if the opponent decide to scan my base than I was.
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Thanks for the kind words and feedback.
A replay pack is in the works. I have a few but in some I make silly mistakes, but maybe they're good enough anyway. Just used it to beat a Terran who destroyed me quite convincingly in a prior game, so that felt nice ^_^
I'm quite busy tomorrow but will try to have the replay pack sometime around then (depending if I get TvT on good maps on ladder =)).
And I considered just making a 3rd rax at my proxy rax instead of a reactor but it doesn't work out mineral-wise. I'm really thinking 2 reactor is quite optimal, but we'll see.
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flamestruck fighting
I don't see what's wrong with him naming this build, I mean there are protoss putting their name on every variation of fast expo after cybernetics core lol.
I was questioning the second reactor as well, but I tried it and it hits right before siege or cloak so it worked out at the ned.
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I could see a simple scan and a smart opponent holding this with little trouble. If you're gathering gas when he scouts you with his initial scv and then if he scans after you take the scv's off gas it'll be a big warning sign of marine all-in incoming.
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On January 26 2011 12:31 Moriarity wrote:
I could see a simple scan and a smart opponent holding this with little trouble. If you're gathering gas when he scouts you with his initial scv and then if he scans after you take the scv's off gas it'll be a big warning sign of marine all-in incoming.
Of course. Like with any cheese it won't work if it's scouted in time. But unlike say a 6-pool, you can scout/scan him yourself and see what your best response would be. You haven't cut any harvesters and you still have an army to defend with so you have the possibility to tech or expand. No it will not be a smooth transition but you aren't automatically screwed if it happens in just your average ladder game.
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I too love all-ins, it is definitely fun sometimes just to whip out the; IM GONNA KILL YOU RIGHT NOW!!!
Anyways thanks for sharing, the BO isn't very original/ground-breaking etc. ofc, but it's still
useful and a good guide :D
And yes, please show some replays! haha
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On January 26 2011 02:05 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
Try reading my post before responding. I did read your post. You are clearly new to the game, so I'll give you a little slack. Please see this person's post, which proves me right.
Nope, he said TvT was hard to all-in (relative to TvP and TvZ no doubt). He meant that TvT was his hardest matchup to all-in.
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On January 26 2011 02:58 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 02:53 b0urne420 wrote:On January 26 2011 02:43 natewOw wrote:On January 26 2011 02:05 natewOw wrote:
Ummmmmm, Terran are incredibly easy to all-in with. Also, "your" strat is the same strat being used by half the Terrans in GSL. Frankly, I'm pretty sure everyone is a little sick of it by now.
Try playing a real game for once. I did read your post. You are clearly new to the game, so I'll give you a little slack. Please see this person's post, which proves me right. Your strategy is far from original. You need to chill out. Is somebody raging? I don't believe so. Contribute to the conversation please.
And you are?
Anyway, understandable that you want to all in in a TvT, those games can be a hit or miss. Also, thanks for posting, i'll try it sometime.
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On January 26 2011 06:29 thesmoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 04:50 Mowr wrote:On January 26 2011 04:16 thesmoosh wrote:
Have you tried going rax > gas then mine only 125 gas for stim? I'm not at my desktop to check, but I think you can have stim hit around 6:30 to 7. I would think stim wouuld be even better since you'll have SCVs to tank the damage.
The tech lab opener is also less vulnerable to super early cheeses meaning you'd be able to use it against other races as well. What do you think? Well barracks finishes at roughly 2:45, maybe a few seconds earlier if you're good. A marine takes 25 second, tech lab 25 s and stim 140. With three SCV:s at a geyser you have the minerals for stim. So at ~6 min you could have your stim. You actually don't have the money to get stim immediately if you go rax > marine/oc > techlab, unless you let your rax idle which isn't ideal. I would say get two marines then tech lab then stem. That way the two marines can deny a scouting worker as well, and you end up with no idle time and exactly enough money to get stim right after the tech lab finishes.
Then your macro isn't good enough. I even just tried it myself and the timings line up nicely.
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proxying a rax with a reactor is such a bad idea. I mean, its so terribly terrible, i dont understand why you would even come up with it.
Good Terran will scout => oh nice a barracks for my marines to pick off (which you cant even defend since you have no marines because you decided to build reactors instead of them) => you lose your timing, you are behind since he knows exactly what you are doing.
Doing all ins in TvT especially is counter productive, because the more you win with it the worse it becomes since T has such an easy time defending with bunkers + siege tanks later. So in all essence youre investing time into a strategy that is bound to become worse with time.
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Zurich15353 Posts
Can you add replays of this to the OP please.
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on the korean ladder there is a 4 rax of this sort of allin after 16scv's u attack with the marine u made in the process (should be around about 8-12) mules can susport 4 rax constant producton if ur ontop of the muling, i've had it done vs me and not done myself
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Didn't have time to read through the thing entirely so I apologize if this sounds redundant. I am almost certain that the reactors build time is that of a barracks, and that this build would produce at a similar rate as getting 5 barracks. With 5 barracks you do not need gas, and you do not need to have non functioning barracks while you wait for a reactor to pop. I believe the mass of marines will be greater with 5 barracks, and suggest it to anyone trying this.
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On January 27 2011 00:06 mAnarch wrote:
Didn't have time to read through the thing entirely so I apologize if this sounds redundant. I am almost certain that the reactors build time is that of a barracks, and that this build would produce at a similar rate as getting 5 barracks. With 5 barracks you do not need gas, and you do not need to have non functioning barracks while you wait for a reactor to pop. I believe the mass of marines will be greater with 5 barracks, and suggest it to anyone trying this.
The point of reactor is to disguise your all in
Also 5 barracks seems alot to support in an all in strategy
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And for the record, a barracks takes 60 seconds, whereas a reactor takes 50.
I was gonna upload two replays, but the replay site I use is down. Can anyone recommend a site?
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"I'm going to post the Maka all-in word for word and name it after myself."
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On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
Hi there!
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran.
You'd get along well with.... Every other Terran.
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I think it would be better if you put these replays at the original post, so that newcomers may see it.
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On January 27 2011 07:10 TALegion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 01:56 Starshaped wrote:
Hi there!
I'm a big fan of all-ins, and I also play Terran. You'd get along well with.... Every other Terran.
^_^''
On January 27 2011 07:12 Autunno wrote:I think it would be better if you put these replays at the original post, so that newcomers may see it.
I already did.
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I`m a terran, and I don`t usually wall-in in TvT but hell, I might as well start doing it =P.
Builds posted in TL spread like crazy, just the other day the ultra lisk build was out, a guy use it against me on the same day.
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In one of your replays, your second barrack finished right when you had 50 gas, that was when my eyes shined in admiration :D (in a very anime like fashion)
I think it's be very useful if you explained what you are paying attention to when you are scouting.
What do you do if he has walled in, what if he didnt, what if he has two gas etc.
Is there any chance that he might have a sieged tank when you attack.
Is it a good idea to fight for xel nagas that could spot your push
Also the positions for proxies would help.
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On January 27 2011 21:05 DestroManiak wrote:
Is there any chance that he might have a sieged tank when you attack.
With racks first and If you make the techlab on the factory one tank will be out at ~5:50 and siege mode at ~6:30. So I don't think hitting later than that is a good timing. But of course, it depends on how good the rest of the defense is too.
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I know I'm not the best but I spotted a similar build when my scouting SCV was returning. luckily I picked the right xel'naga to go to on my way back to my base. more of a marine rush than an all in but meh here it is anyway
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/129213-1v1-terran-blistering-sands
Thought this would apply since someone mentioned the siege tanks. I know I'm not diamond or anything but I figured I could contribute. and for some reason sc2replayed has this as my old name? not sure why...
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hey guys sorry for hijacking this topic but i do this build where i go 10 supply 12 racks and instead of 13 gas i go 14 gas. I named it the danielsan build.
then i build a 15 cc and later a factory. this one is the extended danielsan build.
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On January 27 2011 21:05 DestroManiak wrote:
In one of your replays, your second barrack finished right when you had 50 gas, that was when my eyes shined in admiration :D (in a very anime like fashion)
I think it's be very useful if you explained what you are paying attention to when you are scouting.
What do you do if he has walled in, what if he didnt, what if he has two gas etc.
Is there any chance that he might have a sieged tank when you attack.
Is it a good idea to fight for xel nagas that could spot your push
Also the positions for proxies would help.
Sure, I can explain a bit. The scout is just to make sure he isn't doing anything strange. I want to see a barracks and a gas, then move back and build my proxy barracks. Most high-level Terrans won't wall off in TvT, since the cons outweigh the pros. However, if the Terran discovers what's up, he can easily lift his barracks and build bunkers/depots to block and yes, that can cost you the game.
If it's just a wall-off with no bunker, it is still doable. Focus a depot and once killed right-click one of his mineral patches with your SCVs, then attack-move as they are on his marines (to circumnavigate any movement issues you might otherwise encounter) and micro your marines etc. If he didn't wall-off, like I said before, surround bunker(s) and go for the kill.
And yes it's great to fight for the towers, as long as you do it subtly, i.e send a marine or two to yours. Don't show him 5+ marines just to take control of a tower, but definitely bare in mind their importance.
The positions aren't set in stone. Just pick a spot where (you think) your opponent is unlikely to scout. Some good example are the gold expansions on Delta Quadrant, near the third expansion on Jungle Basin, the high-ground just outside the natural ramp on Steppes of War etc. Experiment for yourself to see what seems to work and what seems to get scouted more easily. Avoid natural scout-paths and anything in-range of a tower, of course. Also avoid too obvious positions, e.g. inside the natural expansion on Jungle Basin.
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the strategy seems okay, if somewhat bizarre in that's it's a fully all in plan that can seem to be salvaged if they are walling with a bunker, see any banshee build ever, but i'm mostly offended by you naming it after yourself
there are about 300 variations of the tvp all in that uses a raven, all of which tasteless jokingly calls the tasteless build, but in truth, this is basically like you naming one of those variations, say the one where you get blue flame hellions to counter zealots as your own... it's just like no, come on dude
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This guide is just asking for flame from others and other angry rants from people who hate all ins due to how a lot of people play Terrans.
The main problem Z/P's have with terrans is their all-in nature and here comes a guide on how to all in LOL im not hating on the guide or anything im just saying... =P
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Why should Z/P care about what happens in TvT anyway?
All races should play to their strengths, if someone writes a macro guide for zerg should they expect to get flamed?
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On January 28 2011 01:24 CrayonKing wrote:
This guide is just asking for flame from others and other angry rants from people who hate all ins due to how a lot of people play Terrans.
The main problem Z/P's have with terrans is their all-in nature and here comes a guide on how to all in LOL im not hating on the guide or anything im just saying... =P
Maybe, but I honestly don't understand people who get so upset over certain strategies and play-styles.
Hate the game, not the player, imo.
Also, Protoss is more of an all-in race than Terran, I'd say. All-inning as Terran is just a lot sexier.
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Tried this out today, won even , but close, considering i play in a lower league....maybe work sometimes,maybe i did just some mistka.es
not bad at all
but i dont really like it...(personal opponion,no hate)
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On January 28 2011 01:24 CrayonKing wrote:
The main problem Z/P's have with terrans is their all-in nature and here comes a guide on how to all in LOL im not hating on the guide or anything im just saying... =P
This is a valid post for "strategy forum", goal of the game is to eliminate the enemy off of the map(it's not so clear to some people without the victory condition written out like sc1).
One problem with cheese haters is that they claim any timing attack which exploits enemy's weakness after midgame is a "strategy" and anything early on is "cheese". They sound like they are saying "oh you can't attack me when I am not ready yet or you are a nub".
Hate on the game(or Blizzard :D), not the Playa.
No one should be flamed for trying to win the game as soon as possible, if the opportunity rises.
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On January 28 2011 04:15 ilsamsamchil wrote:
No one should be flamed for trying to win the game as soon as possible, if the opportunity rises.
I would like to complement what you said by quoting Jinro on his GSL interview, regarding his bunkers on the ramp against iDra:
"I saw he had no drone patrolling the ramp and I had brought two scv's for pressure. You know man, sometimes you just gotta go for it".
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are you scared that a terran who scouts your reactor after 1 marine would just push with 2 or 3 marines and scvs?
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On January 28 2011 05:25 ducis wrote:
are you scared that a terran who scouts your reactor after 1 marine would just push with 2 or 3 marines and scvs?
I believe just that happens in one of the replays.
But no, I'm not scared. Just like I'm not scared of zealot pressure if I do 1rax reactor (with proxy techlab) against Protoss. Simply put, I can afford to use and lose SCVs early, and still have a good enough economy to all-in. I'll gladly trade some SCVs for a few precious marines/zealots. All it results in is less SCVs for my all-in, but also less of an army for his defense.
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On January 28 2011 05:25 ducis wrote:
are you scared that a terran who scouts your reactor after 1 marine would just push with 2 or 3 marines and scvs?
I dont think there is such a danger
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On January 28 2011 05:29 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 05:25 ducis wrote:
are you scared that a terran who scouts your reactor after 1 marine would just push with 2 or 3 marines and scvs? I believe just that happens in one of the replays. But no, I'm not scared. Just like I'm not scared of zealot pressure if I do 1rax reactor (with proxy techlab) against Protoss. Simply put, I can afford to use and lose SCVs early, and still have a good enough economy to all-in. I'll gladly trade some SCVs for a few precious marines/zealots. All it results in is less SCVs for my all-in, but also less of an army for his defense.
how do you micro 1 marine+scvs vs 2/3 marines + scvs and come out ahead? mineral walk?
i think you might of misunderstood me, what i meant was pulling all or basically all of your scvs
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I don't really like to all in against any other race except terran b/c I'm not a big fan of tvt so I've been experimenting with a 3 rax rauder all in, to end the game quickly in my mirror matches, with quite a bit of success. standard build order 12 rax, 13 gas, 2 rines, then add tech lab on first rax and then proxy the other two raxes and add tech labs on both of them. Get about 6 or 7 rauders and hit. It decimates any fast tech build and really only loses badly if it's scouted or if the opposing terran pumps constant rines and makes a bunker on top of that. Also, you can afford an ebay and a couple turrets right as your attack is about to hit to avoid being backstabbed by a banshee. I say "all in" but you can actually transition decently to mid game if it fails and you don't get raped by a banshee.
A terran who bunkers + has extra rines and does a hellion drop will beat it, though. I'm about 2200 diamond so not super high level or anything.
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@Starshaped
how do you micro in general
Lets say you have equal ammounts of scvs and marines, what do you do to come out ahead
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On January 28 2011 06:06 DestroManiak wrote:
@Starshaped
how do you micro in general
Lets say you have equal ammounts of scvs and marines, what do you do to come out ahead
The chances of that happening are very slim, as the other player will probably not be able to get his scvs into the fight before you do some damage, as this is somewhat a surprise build (unless the other player is doing the exact same build =P).
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Australia326 Posts
I honestly feel that this build isn't refined enough.
Hey, if you're going to all-in, at least work out all the possible timings and advantages you can eek out.
A few points:
1. A reactor takes a bloody long time to build. Over a longer period of time it pays for itself, but if you're pushing @ 5-6 minutes, it is actually a liability.
2. Don't get gas. You're wasting 75 minerals for the refinery + the potential mining time of 3 SCVs just to get the reactor. Don't. Imagine how much stronger your all-in would be if you just ignored gas. The upside to getting gas is perhaps when your opponent scouts, he won't be prepared for the all-in, but I can think of better ways to achieve this.
3. You need to be more specific with how many marines and SCVs you're pushing with.
Did you cut SCVs? Are you rallying all your marines to your force? Etc.
Overall, I'm sure it works pretty well for you, judging by your ranking. I do feel 4/5 naked rax all-ins similar to this are actually stronger, as gas is irrelevant. Also, with just naked rax and constant SCV production you can actually afford a CC just after your first push even when making marines from all your production buildings.
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France12904 Posts
If you don't get gas you lose.
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people claim it's cheese because if you run into a couple of bunkers or someone who sniffs out your plan you will flat out lose.
doesn't mean it's not allowed or anything.
I already get marine/scv all in'd in TvT about half the time. it's not so hard to spot though... and it really isn't hard to stop. this one just hits a little later and I guess a little stronger.
but yeah as long as your opponent doesn't catch it you'll probably get a lot of wins. at a certain point though, you'll be playing people that should catch on. or, at a certain point people will have been hit with it enough that they'll be looking for it specifically (I know I do).
and hey name it whatever you want. dragging all your marines and scvs to attack isn't something I personally would want named after me but whatever floats your boat.
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On January 28 2011 07:26 palookieblue wrote:
I honestly feel that this build isn't refined enough.
Hey, if you're going to all-in, at least work out all the possible timings and advantages you can eek out.
A few points:
1. A reactor takes a bloody long time to build. Over a longer period of time it pays for itself, but if you're pushing @ 5-6 minutes, it is actually a liability.
2. Don't get gas. You're wasting 75 minerals for the refinery + the potential mining time of 3 SCVs just to get the reactor. Don't. Imagine how much stronger your all-in would be if you just ignored gas. The upside to getting gas is perhaps when your opponent scouts, he won't be prepared for the all-in, but I can think of better ways to achieve this.
3. You need to be more specific with how many marines and SCVs you're pushing with.
Did you cut SCVs? Are you rallying all your marines to your force? Etc.
Overall, I'm sure it works pretty well for you, judging by your ranking. I do feel 4/5 naked rax all-ins similar to this are actually stronger, as gas is irrelevant. Also, with just naked rax and constant SCV production you can actually afford a CC just after your first push even when making marines from all your production buildings.
You didn`t read all of it. The reason why he gets the gas + reactor is because he doesn`t want his enemy to think that this an allin build. By the time the pushes come, the ammount of marines he gets is about the same he would get with barracs with no addon.
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On January 28 2011 09:05 Autunno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 07:26 palookieblue wrote:
I honestly feel that this build isn't refined enough.
Hey, if you're going to all-in, at least work out all the possible timings and advantages you can eek out.
A few points:
1. A reactor takes a bloody long time to build. Over a longer period of time it pays for itself, but if you're pushing @ 5-6 minutes, it is actually a liability.
2. Don't get gas. You're wasting 75 minerals for the refinery + the potential mining time of 3 SCVs just to get the reactor. Don't. Imagine how much stronger your all-in would be if you just ignored gas. The upside to getting gas is perhaps when your opponent scouts, he won't be prepared for the all-in, but I can think of better ways to achieve this.
3. You need to be more specific with how many marines and SCVs you're pushing with.
Did you cut SCVs? Are you rallying all your marines to your force? Etc.
Overall, I'm sure it works pretty well for you, judging by your ranking. I do feel 4/5 naked rax all-ins similar to this are actually stronger, as gas is irrelevant. Also, with just naked rax and constant SCV production you can actually afford a CC just after your first push even when making marines from all your production buildings.
You didn`t read all of it. The reason why he gets the gas + reactor is because he doesn`t want his enemy to think that this an allin build. By the time the pushes come, the ammount of marines he gets is about the same he would get with barracs with no addon.
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On January 28 2011 04:15 ilsamsamchil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 01:24 CrayonKing wrote:
The main problem Z/P's have with terrans is their all-in nature and here comes a guide on how to all in LOL im not hating on the guide or anything im just saying... =P This is a valid post for "strategy forum", goal of the game is to eliminate the enemy off of the map(it's not so clear to some people without the victory condition written out like sc1). One problem with cheese haters is that they claim any timing attack which exploits enemy's weakness after midgame is a "strategy" and anything early on is "cheese". They sound like they are saying "oh you can't attack me when I am not ready yet or you are a nub". Hate on the game(or Blizzard :D), not the Playa. No one should be flamed for trying to win the game as soon as possible, if the opportunity rises.
There's no such thing as "opportunity rises" in cheese. If it were to be a deliberate action based on information gathered that would actually be strategy, not cheese.
This one is "well i'll just do this and hope he doesnt notice and prepare", it involves no decision making.
You can go ahead and do it, but don have the pretension you weren't cheesing Starshaped-cheesing.
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Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it?
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On January 28 2011 18:01 WAAA wrote:
Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it?
maybe you didnt do this by purpose, but now you did.
:D this is too perfect if anyone remembers starshaped from wc3 
+ Show Spoiler +
fucking trash theorycrafter btw
he trolled and claimed to beat the korean night elf ReminD
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On January 28 2011 18:24 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 18:01 WAAA wrote:
Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it? maybe you didnt do this by purpose, but now you did. :D this is too perfect if anyone remembers starshaped from wc3 + Show Spoiler +
fucking trash theorycrafter btw
he trolled and claimed to beat the korean night elf ReminD
http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=147766
Anyway yeah so far when I've tried it the build has been a complete coinflip, I've been able to break through good people putting 4 hellis and their marines at the top of the ramp, but I've also lost to some really bad players who just got a bunker behind a Rax, on top of the ramp which gives them JUST enough surface area to repair but makes it hard for my SCVs to reach the bunker. I don't think this will replace my regular builds in TvT but I'll keep it in mind for when I face people better than me or for maps which blow in mirror (DQ etc).
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On January 28 2011 07:26 palookieblue wrote:
I honestly feel that this build isn't refined enough.
Hey, if you're going to all-in, at least work out all the possible timings and advantages you can eek out.
A few points:
1. A reactor takes a bloody long time to build. Over a longer period of time it pays for itself, but if you're pushing @ 5-6 minutes, it is actually a liability.
2. Don't get gas. You're wasting 75 minerals for the refinery + the potential mining time of 3 SCVs just to get the reactor. Don't. Imagine how much stronger your all-in would be if you just ignored gas. The upside to getting gas is perhaps when your opponent scouts, he won't be prepared for the all-in, but I can think of better ways to achieve this.
3. You need to be more specific with how many marines and SCVs you're pushing with.
Did you cut SCVs? Are you rallying all your marines to your force? Etc.
Overall, I'm sure it works pretty well for you, judging by your ranking. I do feel 4/5 naked rax all-ins similar to this are actually stronger, as gas is irrelevant. Also, with just naked rax and constant SCV production you can actually afford a CC just after your first push even when making marines from all your production buildings.
Watch some of the replays. It's very deceptive and seems to work quite well. As for the exact timings, I'm not sure yet. I've been testing various arbitrary timings but anything before banshee/blueflame/tank.
I'm sure there are ways to get more marines out by the nth minute, but it's not fair to compare my all-in with that, since mine has other benefits (like the fact it looks innocent enough).
On January 28 2011 17:55 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 04:15 ilsamsamchil wrote:On January 28 2011 01:24 CrayonKing wrote:
The main problem Z/P's have with terrans is their all-in nature and here comes a guide on how to all in LOL im not hating on the guide or anything im just saying... =P This is a valid post for "strategy forum", goal of the game is to eliminate the enemy off of the map(it's not so clear to some people without the victory condition written out like sc1). One problem with cheese haters is that they claim any timing attack which exploits enemy's weakness after midgame is a "strategy" and anything early on is "cheese". They sound like they are saying "oh you can't attack me when I am not ready yet or you are a nub". Hate on the game(or Blizzard :D), not the Playa. No one should be flamed for trying to win the game as soon as possible, if the opportunity rises. There's no such thing as "opportunity rises" in cheese. If it were to be a deliberate action based on information gathered that would actually be strategy, not cheese. This one is "well i'll just do this and hope he doesnt notice and prepare", it involves no decision making. You can go ahead and do it, but don have the pretension you weren't cheesing Starshaped-cheesing.
Well, to be fair, in most of the cases you will add the proxy after scouting, so you can feasibly abort the project if you see a wall-in or something else you feel would be unbeatable with mass marine/SCV.
On January 28 2011 18:01 WAAA wrote:
Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it?
Probably from Warcraft 3. I play(ed) at a fairly high level and compete(d) in leagues/cups. Most notably I beat the (then) best player in the world in a Zotac Cup. And no, that isn't a 'troll,' it actually happened:
http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=147766
I've also beaten other big names but that's probably the most notable. At the moment I'm in DkH Mutligaming's WC3 squad but since I've been focusing on SC2 lately I'm not really playing WC3 anymore. I find it way too hard to juggle the two games and keep a high level in both >_<
On January 28 2011 20:13 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 18:24 nath wrote:On January 28 2011 18:01 WAAA wrote:
Ive heard your name before sc2, can you remind me where Ive seen it? maybe you didnt do this by purpose, but now you did. :D this is too perfect if anyone remembers starshaped from wc3 + Show Spoiler +
fucking trash theorycrafter btw
he trolled and claimed to beat the korean night elf ReminD
http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=147766Anyway yeah so far when I've tried it the build has been a complete coinflip, I've been able to break through good people putting 4 hellis and their marines at the top of the ramp, but I've also lost to some really bad players who just got a bunker behind a Rax, on top of the ramp which gives them JUST enough surface area to repair but makes it hard for my SCVs to reach the bunker. I don't think this will replace my regular builds in TvT but I'll keep it in mind for when I face people better than me or for maps which blow in mirror (DQ etc).
Yeah, I created the build for the simple reason of avoiding a long game on maps I can't stand in TvT. I'm sure it's not some unbeatable game-breaking strategy, but it's a viable 'cheese' that's good to be familiar with, I think.
Edit: Also, if anyone wants to post replays of the all-in failing, that could be interesting.
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This build was done in a more optimized fashion in a TvP on Blistering Sands in the GSL.
The cleaner way to do it is:
12rax
13ref
15OC, marine, then reactor
Remove workers from gas after 50 gas
Make 3 more raxes (total: 5 marines producing at once, which is the max you can do while producing supply depots)
This is the most optimal way to do it while getting gas - this is equally deceptive because your opponent sees the gas and your first marine can force the scouting SCV out before he sees you take workers out of gas.
You're going to get a lot of flames for naming a build that basically already existed with your name in it. Sort of bad form.
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Could you read through the thread before posting? And/or watch the replay(s).
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builds like this make me disappointed that 3-4 SCV+mules can make this a win/not-lose situation, but I bookmarked this page when I decide to switch from zerg to terran.
oh, and when you people talk about "all in" failing, it's usually because the Terran failed to transition into midgame properly, since this build allows you to break even economically.
for proof, look at any score screen after using this build order, with mules the economy is even, assuming you're micro is decent enough to damage his economy.
i wish 6 pool was this deadly, (lol wall-in)
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On January 28 2011 20:37 Asparagus wrote:
builds like this make me disappointed that 3-4 SCV+mules can make this a win/not-lose situation, but I bookmarked this page when I decide to switch from zerg to terran.
oh, and when you people talk about "all in" failing, it's usually because the Terran failed to transition into midgame properly, since this build allows you to break even economically.
for proof, look at any score screen after using this build order, with mules the economy is even, assuming you're micro is decent enough to damage his economy.
i wish 6 pool was this deadly, (lol wall-in)
Any all-in can be transitioned out of if you do enough damage. But rare is the occasion when you all-in and don't win or lose right there. But sure, it can happen.
However, if you 'broke even' economically in TvT while doing this you'd still probably be too far behind tech-wise, since he'd have something like 1-1-1 going and you'd have 2 reactor barracks and 0 gas. Your best bet, if doing this, is to stick to it and either win or lose. I doubt trying to transition into a mid-game is ever the best option.
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On January 28 2011 20:43 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 20:37 Asparagus wrote:
builds like this make me disappointed that 3-4 SCV+mules can make this a win/not-lose situation, but I bookmarked this page when I decide to switch from zerg to terran.
oh, and when you people talk about "all in" failing, it's usually because the Terran failed to transition into midgame properly, since this build allows you to break even economically.
for proof, look at any score screen after using this build order, with mules the economy is even, assuming you're micro is decent enough to damage his economy.
i wish 6 pool was this deadly, (lol wall-in) Any all-in can be transitioned out of if you do enough damage. But rare is the occasion when you all-in and don't win or lose right there. But sure, it can happen. However, if you 'broke even' economically in TvT while doing this you'd still probably be too far behind tech-wise, since he'd have something like 1-1-1 going and you'd have 2 reactor barracks and 0 gas. Your best bet, if doing this, is to stick to it and either win or lose. I doubt trying to transition into a mid-game is ever the best option.
I can't see a situation that wasn't the (all-in)er's fault where you'd do your build and somehow break even with a 1/1/1 player and be at a disadvantage. At 6 minutes which you're implying the cheese takes place, I have enough time to either tech somewhat, or mass an army (which your build has an advantage for) not both simultaneously, so if you're saying you'd be behind a 1-1-1 you've done something wrong, if done correctly you've delayed his tech to the point where he's as behind as you. that's generally how "breaking even" works.
Actually, one way I could see this happening is if he blindly builds the direct counter to your build.
But then you can pull back and play the game.
*edit* and no, a failed 6pool/7rr is a gg on the spot, we do not have mules.
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On January 28 2011 20:50 Asparagus wrote:
But then you can pull back and play the game.
I just lost the game...
http://www.losethegame.com/
on topic: If someone has 4 probes (like you do) but has gas piled up (not very probable), has a factory and a starport (without an add on, lets assume you have killed it) and you have 3 barracks only (one of which is in a proxy location) you are in somewhat a disadventage.
If the enemy has his add ons, has siege tech researched, has enough to begin a banshee etc. then you are in a huge disadventage.
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On January 28 2011 21:06 DestroManiak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 20:50 Asparagus wrote:
But then you can pull back and play the game.
I just lost the game... http://www.losethegame.com/on topic: If someone has 4 probes (like you do) but has gas piled up (not very probable), has a factory and a starport (without an add on, lets assume you have killed it) and you have 3 barracks only (one of which is in a proxy location) you are in somewhat a disadventage. If the enemy has his add ons, has siege tech researched, has enough to begin a banshee etc. then you are in a huge disadventage.
: P glad you caught the reference.
but what I'm saying is...
ok view it in terms of a zvz, since I can explain it the best this way.
just say in 6 minutes I can get a fast lair, a FE, and get roach speed researched.
None of this tech that I have (clearly advantageous of a zerg who stays at 1 base and masses speedlings with the same amount of time+money as I) will matter when his army arrives at my base at 6 minutes regardless.
Now back to your example, if you managed to get an army to beat my all in, while getting the tech to clearly pull ahead, then as far as I'm concerned, I messed up somewhere, it's not the builds fault, that's the only point I'm trying to make. Unless you ran into like the direct counter (like a bunker wall lol)
Sorry if I sound argumentative, hi! I'm asparagus nice to meet you.
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You do not necessarily have to make a big mistake for your rush to fail.
It is quite possible that you can lose your force but manage to take down lots of enemy workers too, hopefully destroy an add-on too.
No problem, the point of a forum is to discuss
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On January 28 2011 20:50 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 20:43 Starshaped wrote:On January 28 2011 20:37 Asparagus wrote:
builds like this make me disappointed that 3-4 SCV+mules can make this a win/not-lose situation, but I bookmarked this page when I decide to switch from zerg to terran.
oh, and when you people talk about "all in" failing, it's usually because the Terran failed to transition into midgame properly, since this build allows you to break even economically.
for proof, look at any score screen after using this build order, with mules the economy is even, assuming you're micro is decent enough to damage his economy.
i wish 6 pool was this deadly, (lol wall-in) Any all-in can be transitioned out of if you do enough damage. But rare is the occasion when you all-in and don't win or lose right there. But sure, it can happen. However, if you 'broke even' economically in TvT while doing this you'd still probably be too far behind tech-wise, since he'd have something like 1-1-1 going and you'd have 2 reactor barracks and 0 gas. Your best bet, if doing this, is to stick to it and either win or lose. I doubt trying to transition into a mid-game is ever the best option. I can't see a situation that wasn't the (all-in)er's fault where you'd do your build and somehow break even with a 1/1/1 player and be at a disadvantage. At 6 minutes which you're implying the cheese takes place, I have enough time to either tech somewhat, or mass an army (which your build has an advantage for) not both simultaneously, so if you're saying you'd be behind a 1-1-1 you've done something wrong, if done correctly you've delayed his tech to the point where he's as behind as you. that's generally how "breaking even" works. Actually, one way I could see this happening is if he blindly builds the direct counter to your build. But then you can pull back and play the game.*edit* and no, a failed 6pool/7rr is a gg on the spot, we do not have mules.
Haha, I enjoy this. Have fun switching to terran. All in a bunch, and then realize a mule is equal to 3 workers. If a protoss or zerg would all in and pull there workers(wich they won't because drones and probes don't synergize with zealots and zerglings, but marines and scv's do) they would just leave 3 drones/probes behind. Wich they have extra because of larva/chronoboost.
So many silly people in this world, who don't think but just follow the masses.
But then you can pull back and play the game.
You CAN'T. Too much behind in tech. He makes 1 siege tanks with siege and you are dead.
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Used it succesfully in masters today. Complaints ensued.
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EPT
