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On January 02 2011 23:11 Scoop wrote:
Ok so I'm playing against people who one click to make units, that's just marvelous. I wonder how many of these there on top of the ladder.
Should be relatively simple to figure out when they have like 50 apm over the course of the game and then suddenly it shoots up to like 500 for a second. But it's really troubling if some top players for instance begun using these. Online tournaments can't make sure people aren't using macros, or can they?
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I love how everyone here ignores the other two or three emails that say it isn't cheating and focus on one that does.
I understand if you're pissed. No one is saying it's fair or whatever, but it's certainly not going to get you banned with such vague responses.
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On January 03 2011 02:12 Hubris wrote:
I love how everyone here ignores the other two or three emails that say it isn't cheating and focus on one that does.
I understand if you're pissed. No one is saying it's fair or whatever, but it's certainly not going to get you banned with such vague responses.
There isn't a single e-mail that said macros are okay. Macros perform multiple actions with fewer clicks than the original. The e-mails say 1:1 key binds are fine, and to use common sense. If you're doing crap like this:
On January 02 2011 19:34 lowlypawn wrote:
Back on topic...
Queen inject macro: 5-backspace-inject set to an extra mouse button. Allows me to inject with just two clicks of the mouse.
123 attack macro: 1-attack-click-2-attack-click-3-attack-click all set to the "`" key. For late game when I have a huge army. As zerg it's usually best to attack from 3 sides and sandwich your opponent. With one keystroke I can command all three attack groups to attack the same spot instantaneously.
Roach stutter step macro: (May also work for marines, stalkers, and marauder) I haven't tested this yet but I think it could be super effective, maybe even game breaking. move-delay-delay-delay-stop, with the key macro option "repeat as long as the key is held" on. What this should do is once the delay is set for the exact same amount as the roaches attack cool down. This should allow you to simply hold down one key, move the mouse and the roaches will basically attack anything in range every attack cool down and continue to move where you want.
APM macro. I saw on a youtube video some guy would hold ONE key down and his APM shot up to 3,000 (yes 3K) lol. I don't know exactly what his macro was set to but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to figure out. No real benefits other then for fun.
I can see peoples concern with macros. I think Blizzard may have made a mistake allowing the SC2 name to be put on a product that supports macros. Because once the dust settles I predict money will trump all and some form of macros will be allowed. But I don't think any of the hard core players have anything to worry about. I have played around with macros and they are hardly game breaking. If they were you would already see half the ladder exploiting it.
then you are blatantly violating the rules. Customizing your set up, any way you see fit, is one thing; hell, using the middle mouse scroll to spam infested Terrans is still cool, because each scroll counts as an action, but "stutter step" macros? Hell, I don't really even have an issue with the 123 attack macro, because similar could be achieved using hotkeys (1 shift 2 shift 3; the problem of course is there's no method to remove the group before terminating the command) if the UI were better. But somethings are STILL crossing the line. A macro that builds an entire army for you? Yeah, no thanks...
By the way, anyone who says discussing the macros legitimacy as being off-topic is being slightly narrow-minded. This is an issue that HAS to be addressed; it's not going away. If people post their macros, they obviously don't see a problem with them; but this is a community decision, not an individual one. Sure, there are some people that will read people up here saying they're cheating and not care; but I believe there are also people who will read reviews of their set ups, and consider the points made by others here in regards to abusability.
A baseline MUST be established.
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Honestly, I'm pretty disappointed by Blizzard endorsing these products to begin with. When I first saw them advertised - with programmable macros as a selling point - I was pretty dumbfounded. Why would they open up such a can of worms? Even if Blizzard do not allow macros in their terms of service (and the above customer support responses have been ridiculously vague), marketing such a product obviously creates confusion. And while I'm heavily against the use of macros, I can imagine people who bought the (ludicrously priced) product on this basis feeling pretty ripped off if they risk being banned for using the advertised functionality. If Blizzard's mission is to create the most successful competitive e-sport game, then this seriously undermines their goal.
As for people trying to justify the use of macros by downplaying their significance or saying they aren't game changing... That's really not the point. Either you're getting some form of competitive advantage, or you're not. If you're getting any advantage at all that's not available to other players (and clearly you are), then there's a serious problem.
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Either you're getting some form of competitive advantage, or you're not. If you're getting any advantage at all that's not available to other players (and clearly you are), then there's a serious problem.
It is not a black and white issue. For example, remapping scrollwheel to spawn infested terran.
A faster computer could also provide a competitive advantage, however we don't seem to care if everyone uses the same computer or not. ( Probably because it would never happen. )
Accept that not everyone plays with the same computers, input devices, or hand sizes. Therefore, you should just play the way that works best for you. In the end, the best strategy usually wins, these macros/input devices are not going to carry you. Even if they did carry you, there is always someone who is better than you.
If you want to play in an atmosphere where all things are equal, play in tournaments where players are on site playing on the same computers etc. Otherwise, just accept that you can not control other people.
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heres my setup
g110
g1 - g
g2 - l
g3 - (space)
g4 - (empty)
g5 - h
g6 - f
g9x
mouse 3 - (empty), g9x middle mouse button is STIFF
mouse 4 - shift
mouse 5 - backspace
this way i can say 'gl hf' by just runnin my hand across the side of the keyboard, and i can center on hatches with my mouse
lazy? you betcha
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It's clearly cheating, it's almost impossible to be caught on certain keyboard types, and I'm not sure exactly how much of an advantage any of these macros actually give you until you're good enough that you shouldn't even need them.
It's actually nearly impossible to get any truly game-breaking macros to work in a manner that you can fully depend on. To set these types of macros, you have to have perfect conditions, and in a game like Starcraft, there are many, MANY ways that your opponents actions can completely obliterate your "perfect" macro. A single sniped queen, for instance, can make an inject macro completely useless until you send all your queens (back) to their proper locations, replace the sniped queen, and reset it's control #. In the meantime, you might lose another queen, or start a new hatch at the wrong time, or any other variable you can think of.
The most useful macros that you can make are simple ones that have been stated multiple times. Things like setting Mouse3 to [3-g-Mouse1-1] to switch from the lings you're controlling, single-click casting from your infestors (on control 3), and instantly switch back to your lings. Or something like setting G1 to [4-s-rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-1] to switch off your control group, make a round of roaches, and switch instantly back to your control group so that everything gets done faster, making it easier to perform actions while in high-action battles or other various micro-intensive times. These types of actions are very helpful, and might ACTUALLY be incorporated into future RTS games. But for now, it's not how Blizzard intends for their game to be played, and it's not allowed in ANY tournament. One would probably be correct in the assumption that EVERY pro on the scene has a keyboard capable of performing these macros, and as such it probably doesn't create an unfair advantage for anybody... BUT the people in charge want to reward particular skills that set players apart, and macros remove the need for those talents.
With that all said, I'm not convinced that binding simple macros to individual keys will help a player suddenly jump from 300pt Bronze to 2000pt Diamond, at Bronze level, you're not thinking about the things you need to do, you're losing because you don't know what you need to do. It certainly could help you jump from 1500ish Diamond to 2.5k or even 3k or more by making your macro mechanics easier to perform. At mid-Diamond and up, you usually know what you need to do, but you don't because you feel like you have to watch what's happening in front of you and be in complete control of your units. If you can bind 2, 3, whatever, 10 actions to a single key, suddenly that thing you need to do can be mindlessly executed with a single press of a key, which can give you a competitive edge against someone who has to manually carry out the same actions. And once you reach the top of the ladder... What then? At that level you become a well-known player, your replays are going to get out into the community, people are going to see your APM shoot up to 3000+ for split seconds while you play, and you're going to be exposed as a user of macros as a crutch to your game... What good is that, really?
If you want a game where you don't have to incorporate macro-mechanics (in the RTS sense of the word), or intensive micro-mechanics into your play, you are playing the wrong game, and should probably check out UMS games like Zone Control or other popular RTS games like Dawn of War or other games with auto-spawning units that are very focused on simply moving your units around. While you probably won't be caught, or even punished if you are, for using keyboard macros in SC2, you should know that you are playing with an unfair advantage over the vast majority of the ladder.
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Just because Blizzard makes(or contracts out or whatever) keyboards that have the ability to macro, doesn't automatically make it condoned. You can also use Starcraft 2 keyboards to threaten people on battle.net, but it is still not allowed. That being said, I doubt very many games are ever won or lost due to macro buttons. I would personally never use them, seems to violate the spirit of Starcraft, where making units and structures is just as integral to winning as controlling your army.
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Pro players think that Starcraft should be as difficult to play as possible, as it allows them all the micro and UI abuses possible to win games. No one can really explain how that makes Starcraft a better game.
Gnome showed that even a flaky player can beat the best by fooling his opponent with feints, hidden strengths, and better strategy. But let's not confuse Starcraft II with a strategy game; it's all about who can navigate the maze of buttons the fastest.
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But let's not confuse Starcraft II with a strategy game; it's all about who can navigate the maze of buttons the fastest.
This quote is so ridiculous I want to punch myself in the face. If learning the hotkeys for a race is a "maze" to you dude... I don't think you should even be playing computer games at all. Stick to halo. Nice and easy 1 stick to move you and 1 button to shoot colorful blobs in front of you. That sounds like your type of game.
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On January 04 2011 02:27 MerciLess wrote:
Just because Blizzard makes(or contracts out or whatever) keyboards that have the ability to macro, doesn't automatically make it condoned.
Yes it does. That's the whole point. The terms of service disallow third-party programs, but explicitly make an exception for those which are endorsed by Blizzard. The Razer software is a third-party program that is endorsed by Blizzard. The terms of service make it completely clear that it is allowed.
And for all of you saying "but it's so obviously cheating!", Blizzard is not a 13-year-old game master who makes up new rules on a whim. They are a large company owned by an even larger company with an enormous legal department. The terms of service are everything. Banning people for this will end up with a class-action lawsuit that they will almost certainly lose.
As for why anyone would want to use macros, it makes the game mechanics more comfortable, in exactly the same way that custom hotkeys do. The auto-matchmaker is always going to give you a 50-50 match, so what business is it of yours how someone else chooses to enjoy their game?
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Pirsq, I'm assuming you're purposely being obtuse because if you're sincere I feel sorry for your ability to comprehend simple concepts. Blizzard would lose a class action lawsuit about banning people who violate the TOS? Macros(multiple key entries) are the same as custom-hotkeys(never more than 1 key)? If maphacks make someone more comfortable, it's none of my business? Since when are we suppose to ignore what other players do in games and sports and let them play the games however they want to? I'm sure you joking, because I don't think anyone but a troll could have stuffed so many logical fallacies into 3 small paragraphs.
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On January 04 2011 04:43 MerciLess wrote:
Pirsq, I'm assuming you're purposely being obtuse because if you're sincere I feel sorry for your ability to comprehend simple concepts. Blizzard would lose a class action lawsuit about banning people who violate the TOS? Macros(multiple key entries) are the same as custom-hotkeys(never more than 1 key)? If maphacks make someone more comfortable, it's none of my business? Since when are we suppose to ignore what other players do in games and sports and let them play the games however they want to? I'm sure you joking, because I don't think anyone but a troll could have stuffed so many logical fallacies into 3 small paragraphs.
I think you failed to read my post. How exactly does it violate the terms of service?
You probably haven't read that either. It's right here: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/termsofuse.html
It prohibits "unauthorized third-party software". The key word is "unauthorized". The word isn't defined in the licence, so it's somewhat vague, but in this scenario, any court is going to find that actively promoting the product for use with Starcraft 2 counts as authorizing it for that use.
Afterthought: if they did ban people, Razer would probably be the first to sue them. How would you feel if you paid Blizzard several million dollars to use their brand on your product, and then they went ahead and banned your customers for using that product for exactly its intended purpose? Would significantly dent Blizzard's chance of getting endorsement deals with other companies in future, too.
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I don't see why people are expecting Blizzard to enforce this, most macros will be impossible to detect. I don't even see much of an advantage at all to using them. So you can inject in two clicks? Bind the backspace key to your mouse, and you can inject nearly as fast. The difference would be milliseconds. The macro will get you an advantage over someone who doesn't inject properly, but that's it. Personally I will be happy if they can detect maphack, I'm not at all worried about macros.
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chessiecat, you have good common sense.
Use that keyboard all you want. Blizzard is not going to do anything.
Anyone can have a SC2 tourney and make up any rule they like. I could say NO CRT monitors as they give unfair advantage. If you don't like the rules just don't play in the tourney. They do not own blizzard its just a tourney.
If you are at home playing SC2 desert strike or ladder blizzard has no idea what your doing.
ban you LOL.
For one thing if they were to do something stupid like that you could kill them in small claims court. If its not easily found or conveyed by the company then NO there is no rule on using that keyboard.
I think there are people here that in there minds if they were the rule maker (and they are not) they would ban you for using a macro.
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Ok. I've read like the first 8 pages of responses on this thread.
I will not reiterate what the other ppl said.But know one thing.
Blizz can ban u for any reason from not liking the sound of ur name or they having a bad day at the office.It's in the freaking ToS .Thats stated in the WoW EULA too(the wall of text that no one reads and u press "accept" 3-4 times after u patched WoW).
Please remember that when u are trying to justify "is a Blizz product".It's not a Blizz product.If it has they're name on them ,doesnt mean it's a Blizz product.It's a Razer product or whatever company made it.
They banned ppl in WoW for even less.ToS states that they can ban u for any non-logical reason they can think off.
And when u press "I Agree" u cannot take legal actions if they ban u.Simple as that.
Not gonna start the ol' "back in my days,we had to click on each buildings to make stuff"  .
I'm not a imba BW player.I was D- on Iccup,because when i started playing RTS WC3 was the next big thing.
The point is the interface already becomed incredibly simple.What do u want more?
When i've read certain ppl posts regarding "EMP macros" or "Larva inject macro".
If u want to perfectly inject larva,mentally train urself to count in ur head and every 40 game sec,an reflex should appear,like a ur finger twitching or a small itch on ur nose.
And then u will inject larva like a metronome.
If ppl will accept this? Ppl have proved that in the past,the more amends u make to them,the more they will want later.
Soon they will want giant macros that will allow entire BO to be perfectly done without any human error (missing a svc or harvesting 4 more gas then necessary).
Again,they banned ppl for far less in WoW.They can ban u for nothing.Is stated in the ToS.
Do not give them any reasons to do that.
Play the game as it is.
I don't see why people are expecting Blizzard to enforce this, most macros will be impossible to detect. I don't even see much of an advantage at all to using them. So you can inject in two clicks? Bind the backspace key to your mouse, and you can inject nearly as fast. The difference would be milliseconds. The macro will get you an advantage over someone who doesn't inject properly, but that's it. Personally I will be happy if they can detect maphack, I'm not at all worried about macros.
If u play a long macro game with like 4-5 hatches or more,the advantage of someone using macro compared to someone not using it is not milliseconds.It's more like 1-2 seconds.And for ppl saying "1-2 sec more is shit" pls think that sometimes those 1-2 sec will add up on the course of a long game.And that is spare time which u can do more.
And that will be even more relevant in a mirror match.
ZvZ is most of the time a macro game.Perfect injects means more larva which means more stuff,including and not limited to drones.
At low lvl,macros can patch the gap from lack of mechanincs.But if better ppl start using them,at higher skill lvl,they will know how to use those extra 2 sec or the extra larva considering the other guy doesnt have perfect larva injecting skills (most pros still miss a inject by a few to tens of seconds).
And that will make ppl not using them start using them (assuming they are legal as some ppl claim).
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On January 06 2011 21:52 Akash wrote:Ok. I've read like the first 8 pages of responses on this thread. I will not reiterate what the other ppl said.But know one thing. Blizz can ban u for any reason from not liking the sound of ur name or they having a bad day at the office.It's in the freaking ToS .Thats stated in the WoW EULA too(the wall of text that no one reads and u press "accept" 3-4 times after u patched WoW). Please remember that when u are trying to justify "is a Blizz product".It's not a Blizz product.If it has they're name on them ,doesnt mean it's a Blizz product.It's a Razer product or whatever company made it. They banned ppl in WoW for even less.ToS states that they can ban u for any non-logical reason they can think off. And when u press "I Agree" u cannot take legal actions if they ban u.Simple as that. Not gonna start the ol' "back in my days,we had to click on each buildings to make stuff" . I'm not a imba BW player.I was D- on Iccup,because when i started playing RTS WC3 was the next big thing. The point is the interface already becomed incredibly simple.What do u want more? When i've read certain ppl posts regarding "EMP macros" or "Larva inject macro". If u want to perfectly inject larva,mentally train urself to count in ur head and every 40 game sec,an reflex should appear,like a ur finger twitching or a small itch on ur nose. And then u will inject larva like a metronome. If ppl will accept this? Ppl have proved that in the past,the more amends u make to them,the more they will want later. Soon they will want giant macros that will allow entire BO to be perfectly done without any human error (missing a svc or harvesting 4 more gas then necessary). Again,they banned ppl for far less in WoW.They can ban u for nothing.Is stated in the ToS. Do not give them any reasons to do that. Play the game as it is. Show nested quote +I don't see why people are expecting Blizzard to enforce this, most macros will be impossible to detect. I don't even see much of an advantage at all to using them. So you can inject in two clicks? Bind the backspace key to your mouse, and you can inject nearly as fast. The difference would be milliseconds. The macro will get you an advantage over someone who doesn't inject properly, but that's it. Personally I will be happy if they can detect maphack, I'm not at all worried about macros. If u play a long macro game with like 4-5 hatches or more,the advantage of someone using macro compared to someone not using it is not milliseconds.It's more like 1-2 seconds.And for ppl saying "1-2 sec more is shit" pls think that sometimes those 1-2 sec will add up on the course of a long game.And that is spare time which u can do more. And that will be even more relevant in a mirror match. ZvZ is most of the time a macro game.Perfect injects means more larva which means more stuff,including and not limited to drones. At low lvl,macros can patch the gap from lack of mechanincs.But if better ppl start using them,at higher skill lvl,they will know how to use those extra 2 sec or the extra larva considering the other guy doesnt have perfect larva injecting skills (most pros still miss a inject by a few to tens of seconds). And that will make ppl not using them start using them (assuming they are legal as some ppl claim).
It's Blizzard licensed, promoted, and sold. It's a Blizz product. This isn't a difficult concept. And "they can ban you for whatever they want" isn't part of the argument against macros. Even if it was, being a BLIZZARD LICENSED PRODUCT you'd be able to sue or at least get unbanned. I'm not for either side of macros because I think it's retarded to blow it out of proportion, but this ignoring of simple logic and legal ability is just mind numbing.
Edit: Not directed to you specifically, but this entire thread is filled with people who are angry at others for having some sort of advantage. Sorry, it might not seem just, but there are thousands of these products out there. So, until Blizz either pulls the product or makes it CLEAR for the thousands of people using their game that it isn't allowed it will continue to be used.
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Edit: Not directed to you specifically, but this entire thread is filled with people who are angry at others for having some sort of advantage. Sorry, it might not seem just, but there are thousands of these products out there. So, until Blizz either pulls the product or makes it CLEAR for the thousands of people using their game that it isn't allowed it will continue to be used.
No offence taken m8.But u are right.Untill blizz or a blue post comes out and tells us that is bad,ppl will think its legit and keep using them.
Someone should post on blizz forums and see if they get Nethaera or other developer to shed some light on this.
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Pretty sure its not allowed, probably written somewhere in the long ToS that nobody ever reads but accepts anyways. You have to realise that if you accept the ToS, then you have to abide to the rules or possibly get your account banned. At that point you honestly can't really complain because the ToS specifically states that you understand the rules and are willing to respect it.
Of course this is all based on the presumption that it is banned according to the ToS.
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EPT
