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I've recently gotten a Spectre Mouse and a Marauder keyboard and found that they have some truly amazing potential for bullshit on the macro side of things.
Currently when I'm set to my Zerg profile, I can roll the mouse-wheel forward while playing with Infestors to expend all of their energy on Infested Terrans in less than a second. It's a huge MASS of beachballs dropping all at once. Very ugly.
I've also got my Psi-storm and Guardian shield set to one click casting and for Zerg I can inject larvae on all of my Hatcheries with two button clicks. EMP's are single click and I have a macro set to super-quickly (when I have a group of marines, marauders, and ghosts selected) switch to the Marines and stim instantly (less than one millisecond) then switch back to the Ghosts.
Altogether I don't get to see most of these kinds of things used very often. I'm curious as to what your macros are? None of these seem particularly game breaking. They just simplify things significantly. Certainly Zerg macro is a lot easier with them.
I have yet to make Blink micro work with a macro but meh, I'll figure it out eventually.
What macro's do you usually set and what keyboard do you use to set them?
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There's been a little controversy on this thread as to whether these products are likely to get you banned and what limits are on current macro set-ups. Obviously this system doesn't allow for some of the more complex pieces of macro.
I can't make it consistently Blink, it won't operate most race macro-mechanics with any reasonable reliability (The Zerg have this particular thing the worst. If you have an un-even number of Queens, they tend to attempt to walk to the other side of the map rather than injecting) and while it does switch units very quickly and apply buffs like guardian shield, it tends to fail miserably if your unit composition isn't precisely what it was when the macro was set.
At best, your units get their buff but get slightly distracted in battle. At worst, they wander headlong into an enemy composition like a line of pointy ducklings.
Has anyone seen Blizzard issue some proclamation on this?
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I was under the impression that setting macros like this could get you banned.
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Macros are disallowed by the ToS and if Blizzard determines you are using them you will be banned.
Most people on here don't use macros.
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So...the program that Blizzard helped write and that they include with the peripheral which has StarCraft 2 in giant letters on it, with software specifically for setting macro's for Starcraft 2 and which is advertised on the Starcraft 2 website can get you banned?
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The first one with changing mousewheel up to spew infested terrans doesn't seem like it counts, but the others may. I have a new mouse. What is their definition of a macro. Anything over 1 button press?
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I've just gone over the terms of service and it says VERY specifically that 'Programs Not Authorized By Blizzard' are what will get you banned. I would say that a program with 'Licensed Blizzard Product' in giant letters across the splash page and that they advertised on their own website would probably not count.
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Mhm. If that is actually true, then all I can do is facepalm at Blizzard. Again. =/
It should obviously not be allowed in any shape or form.
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Yup, and definitely isn't allowed in tourneys, so I wouldn't get used to using them if you ever plan on competing.
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On December 28 2010 11:00 Talin wrote:
Mhm. If that is actually true, then all I can do is facepalm at Blizzard. Again. =/
It should obviously not be allowed in any shape or form.
Blizzard has banned people for using macros. if OP keeps using the macros, he is choosing to risk his SC2 account.
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On December 28 2010 11:01 pwnasaurus wrote:
Yup, and definitely isn't allowed in tourneys, so I wouldn't get used to using them if you ever plan on competing.
Was wondering where I've seen that username recently:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179118
Probably not going to compete any time soon. Also seems like a "I am terrible legitly so let me cheat" train of thought.
It's illegal and you'll hopefully get banned if caught.
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Hey, I came for genuine advice and assistance. If this is banned by the ToS, it's banned by the ToS.
I haven't made use of any of this on the ladder and I was under the impression since Blizz stuck their name all across this product that they'd probably have some idea what it could and would be used for. If it's at all likely to get me banned I'm not going to use those functions but I honestly want to know what I can and cannot do before I stick my foot in the banhammer which was obviously a danger here.
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Obviously they aren't going to let you use things like this at a tournament, but they aren't going to ban you for using simple macros. Especially considering the macro enabled official StarCraft 2 peripherals that advertise they have macros.
I use a bunch of macros I use with my Logitech G15 keyboard and G700 mouse.
I use them all for my macro. 
All of the G keys (macro keys) on my keyboard are used for producing different units on the first memory set, the second memory set is all upgrades, I don't use the third set. On my mouse I have one for build scv and another for select idle worker.
The idea is to have consistent hotkeys for every building, then you set your macros up accordingly. For example I have one macro key set as {2,a} which selects my barracks and builds a marine. I always set 2 to my barracks hotkey. If the game goes on to the late game I end up using every single hotkey.
After a couple games of using my macros it boosted my APM by about 15. I was averaging around 50 and went up to around 65.
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That's like using maphack on Broodwar and talking openly about it. People were getting permabanned for it on teamliquid even if they didn't attend tournaments. It's cheating and nothing else.
On December 28 2010 11:17 locopuyo wrote:
After a couple games of using my macros it boosted my APM by about 15. I was averaging around 50 and went up to around 65.
Obviously, since you only press one key and it counts as multiple ones. Hey, let's bind 44324143243241242142343443321423413412434123423432142342343241242 onto one key and spam that to have over 4000 apm, that makes us more skilled.
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Blizzard hasn't made any sort of statement regarding this and their SC2 peripherals as of yet. I've been hunting around for one but to date I am just not seeing anything.
If you can actually point me to someone on the Blizzard website and from Blizzard saying that these products are not for use with the game on ladder, it would be mightily appreciated. I'm going to edit the original post.
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On December 28 2010 11:21 Shikyo wrote:That's like using maphack on Broodwar and talking openly about it. People were getting permabanned for it on teamliquid even if they didn't attend tournaments. It's cheating and nothing else. Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 11:17 locopuyo wrote:
After a couple games of using my macros it boosted my APM by about 15. I was averaging around 50 and went up to around 65. Obviously, since you only press one key and it counts as multiple ones. Hey, let's bind 44324143243241242142343443321423413412434123423432142342343241242 onto one key and spam that to have over 4000 apm, that makes us more skilled.
It's nothing like using a maphack. I heard rumors about blizzard adding fully customizable keys and macros in the StarCraft 2 options. One of the biggest changes from SC1 to SC2 is Blizzard making the game more about strategy and less about mindless robot clicking. Macros increase efficiency a lot by removing mindless extra clicks.
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On December 28 2010 11:36 locopuyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 11:21 Shikyo wrote:That's like using maphack on Broodwar and talking openly about it. People were getting permabanned for it on teamliquid even if they didn't attend tournaments. It's cheating and nothing else. On December 28 2010 11:17 locopuyo wrote:
After a couple games of using my macros it boosted my APM by about 15. I was averaging around 50 and went up to around 65. Obviously, since you only press one key and it counts as multiple ones. Hey, let's bind 44324143243241242142343443321423413412434123423432142342343241242 onto one key and spam that to have over 4000 apm, that makes us more skilled. It's nothing like using a maphack. I heard rumors about blizzard adding fully customizable keys and macros in the StarCraft 2 options. One of the biggest changes from SC1 to SC2 is Blizzard making the game more about strategy and less about mindless robot clicking. Macros increase efficiency a lot by removing mindless extra clicks.
Oh, that changes everything. It would do so much good for the game if you could just press 4 and all your Queens spawn larvae on every single of your hatcheries. Why not just play on slowest speed, or make the game turn-based instead?
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Shikyo, your posts stopped helping a little while ago...
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On December 28 2010 11:36 locopuyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 11:21 Shikyo wrote:That's like using maphack on Broodwar and talking openly about it. People were getting permabanned for it on teamliquid even if they didn't attend tournaments. It's cheating and nothing else. On December 28 2010 11:17 locopuyo wrote:
After a couple games of using my macros it boosted my APM by about 15. I was averaging around 50 and went up to around 65. Obviously, since you only press one key and it counts as multiple ones. Hey, let's bind 44324143243241242142343443321423413412434123423432142342343241242 onto one key and spam that to have over 4000 apm, that makes us more skilled. It's nothing like using a maphack. I heard rumors about blizzard adding fully customizable keys and macros in the StarCraft 2 options. One of the biggest changes from SC1 to SC2 is Blizzard making the game more about strategy and less about mindless robot clicking. Macros increase efficiency a lot by removing mindless extra clicks.
Nah it's cheating and people have been banned for it.
Gogo cry more about how you suck at sc1.
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See, that's another of those 'loud opinions' we're getting a lot of. I want to know if Blizzard has issued any statements regarding this. The mouse and keyboard both have severe limitations although they can do a few genuinely amazing things. They cannot magically build your base and can only increase the speed you can cast certain spells by a quantity comparable to a slightly faster finger speed (not a significantly faster one).
They are still, at their hearts, dumb machines. You can't use a single key to do a progression of tasks reliably. Starcraft 2 has too many variables. It can only issue a series of key presses. Some of these work better than others and some don't work at all. Even with the lowest delay possible, Yamato cannons fire at exactly the same rate with a single click macro as they would with six normal speed HoldY+clicks.
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Using any third-party programs to improve your gameplay is cheating. It's like using a program to time items for you in Quake: sure, you could do just as well on your own, but you have a huge advantage just from the simple fact that it frees you of the required effort.
It doesn't even matter if it's in the ToS or if Blizzard says it's cheating, what matters is what the community thinks about it. If I'm playing against you and I know that you use macros to help your play, then we both know that it doesn't matter if you win or not, because you're cheating.
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How would they even be able to tell, it's just pressing the buttons for you, it's not like it's a maphack that is leaving evidence behind, or does it somehow?
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The community seems to be vastly divided on this subject so if that's your metric then you're going to have a tough time. I recognize the possibility it could be used for things that I would genuinely consider cheating (although apparently not with any reliability. It's TWITCHY. I tried to do a few game breaking things just now like setting up a macro to try to build a base. Doesn't work at all.) but I want to know if it can be used to simplify tasks.
Binding EMP to a mouse-key for instance or letting you cast Infested Terran with the mouse wheel. Simple, straightforward, makes the unit significantly easier to use in frantic battles but doesn't fundamentally change how the unit works or how quickly it casts. It only puts the spell closer at hand. Blizzard is issuing hot-keys in two weeks which will do more or less the same thing.
It should also be noted that macros which issue multiple commands at a speed with less than 5 milliseconds delay WILL crash Starcraft 2. This makes spamming Infested Terrans a risky business and they're pretty much the only unit that completely benefits from being spammed.
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This sounds incredibly unfair. Having a clear advantage in game because of items you've purchased is terrible.
Everybody should have access to the exact same competitive features as everybody else.
How is it fair if I, as a Protoss player, lose to a Terran because he can get off incredibly efficient EMPs and stims with the help of the macro - when he is unable to do so regularly?
How is it fair that a zerg can inject larvae with 'two button clicks' while his zerg opponent is forced to do things a more difficult way?
It's completely ridiculous. I'm glad you're not laddering with these macros. I doubt other people are as fair-playing as you, however.
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That does leave me a bit curious as to whether or not Blizzard WOULD allow for such a thing. I mean, they did open that silly item shop store in World of Warcraft so people could buy upgrades and e-products straight from them, some of which are pretty game breaking.
Is it fair that people can purchase those? Or that they have the training advantage granted by the APM lighting system in the Spectre and Marauder? Or a better processor in their computer?
If we're speaking of an entirely even playing field here then I suppose they're doing their best...but it strikes me as a bit weird that they are so choosey on some things and so...well...NOT on others. Mainly on things that make money for Blizzard I notice but still.
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I'm glad you aren't laddering with these macros, it simply isn't fair. The whole point in playing rests on the idea that both players are on an even playing field and that when it comes down to it, the only factors are skill and the ever-present lady luck. With macros in the picture it simply isn't an even playing field, this is like the equivalent of using corked bats in the MLB.
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I'm 100% against BOTTING, but banning macros? C'mon. I bought Starcraft to play a Real Time Strategy game, not a button mashing whack-a-mole.
If Blizzard can't make their interface more user friendly, then I'll fix it myself. I assure you, there is a WORLD of difference between the current setup and 1-button casting.
Some of the macros I've been playing with DO feel like cheats. The auto-inject one is a bit rigged. Not that's it's my fault Zerg gets 50%+ of their everything from Spawn Larva, but it would take a bronze league up through low gold.
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On December 28 2010 11:08 udgnim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 11:00 Talin wrote:
Mhm. If that is actually true, then all I can do is facepalm at Blizzard. Again. =/
It should obviously not be allowed in any shape or form. Blizzard has banned people for using macros. if OP keeps using the macros, he is choosing to risk his SC2 account.
link to someone getting banned for using keyboard macros
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146760
also, Blizzard has banned people for using single player cheat programs to help boost their achievement point totals. whether Blizzard cares whether you use macros for single player, I don't know.
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I don't see how Blizzard would ban someone for using the products that they're endorsing. Tournament play excluded, of course. I don't really think that it's fair to use some of those macros on the ladder either, but that's me.
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So say i had the macro keys (G keys) on my keyboard (G110) set just so i can set my hotkey groups (like g1 would be like pressing ctrl+1, g2= crtl+2), is that against the rules? its not like it gives me a huge advantage, its just the only way i remember to set hotkeys 
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I agree macros give an unfair advantage and should never be allowed in professional play, but people are blowing it way out of proportion. People are acting as if you press one macro key and it activates a sophisticated AI that builds your base and wins for you as you sit and watch while eating a hot pocket.
The most advantageous useful macro you can do is only 2 key presses combined into 1. For example instead of pressing {1, a} you could press a single macro key {G1}. The macro keys aren't as close to the finger placement as the standard keys so it's also an extra reach. So the main advantage is you can press 2 button sequences slightly quicker than you could without them. This actually comes in handy less than you would think. Normally you have multiple barracks and want to build more than one marine at once. So instead of pressing {1, a, a} you can press {G1, G1}. You only had to press 2 buttons instead of 3. Eventually 5 buttons instead of 6, etc.
Most people get APM capped by idling because their build order and gameplay isn't refined enough. A couple keyboard macros aren't going to make much of a difference.
Faster hardware, higher precision mice, and even mechanical keyboards give much bigger advantage gaps than simple macros.
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The way blizzard reacted, I think the gist is that you're allowed to bind keys to any key you want so long as it would take one button press to do the same thing it previously did.
In other words for whatever reason you could bind say A for build marine to macro key 1 but you wouldn't be able to bind 2->1 to your macro key 1.
I would say the infested terran example binding to the mousewheel is treading very close to the line. Even though to make it legal you would have to bind it to left click and hit t+shift and then spin I'm still on the fence about it seeing as it can pop out 15+ ITs per second.
Beyond that I disagree with the ability to do anything faster than humanly possible as a matter of fairness in SC2, regardless of if you're in bronze trying to get into a higher league or in diamond looking for a small edge over your opponent.
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I wouldn't put your forcefield in a one-click macro. It's too important to completely seal off ramps.
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Byce's comment is the best shown to give you perspective on "cheating"... It really doesn't matter if you reach diamond 1, if you use macros it is giving u a handicap... Now no, if you use them online the chance of someone knowing ur using it is near zero, and infact by the sounds of it you might be gold max... So to me this really isn't relevant, but you really won't become better using these "helpful" macros.
It's like never doing simple multiplication or fraction work as a child and using a calculator(the macros is calculator in this analogy) and wondering when you hit highschool why everything might be really really fucking hard not being able to do the simple things without those 2 needed things (which branch into every aspect of mathmatics generally)
Point is, you won't learn unless you push yourself to think and play faster with every button everyone else generally uses. If using macros is fun and u just play gold or even plat... maybe diamond and ur winning and having fun fuck I really don't care, you payed for it but this topic is on opinions and turned into Cheat or Not Cheat... Fact is, logically it's a handicap and since you have the advantage over MOST people (say 95% to 99% dont use macros) it's a cheat.
But if you're down for gaming with macros and you just mind your own P's and Q's and be polite I'm sure no one will give a damn seeing as if you are using macros you aren't going to progress to any competative scene or level.
Just HAVE FUN 
Merlin
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Hmm, wonder what happens if you bump one of your macro keys by accident which has no (desired) effect on the game, ie a toggled click spam macro, or pressing and a random button which is held down...
Reckon it would it be best to switch to M2 or M3 while playing SC2 as they're all unassigned?
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On December 28 2010 12:04 chessiecat wrote:
The community seems to be vastly divided on this subject so if that's your metric then you're going to have a tough time.
I'm failing to see the divide.
This topic infuriates me. How do you not see this is cheating?
I have to click two buttons. The game is designed this way. It takes more focus and effort.
You click one button, same result.
CHEATING.
You will be banned for using macros. This has been discussed. The keyboard that says starcraft on it and has macro capability. The macros are cool. They can be used for many things that are not starcraft related.
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I have to click two buttons. The game is designed this way. It takes more focus and effort.
You click one button, same result.
BAD INTERFACE Hey, I fixed that for you! Why not make a few suggestions on the battle.net forums, huh?
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What infruiates me is people who post, angry with a topic and and know nothing about the topic post "Gah I've never seen one, or read about one or even looked into starcrafts product but HEY I hear billybob and joeyloo are gettin the truck running and grabbing there white ghost costumes I might as well JUMP ON and lynch a product"
Fact is, that changing a key from 1 to another is not an "illegal" SC2 ladder move. It is assigning 2keystrokes+ to 1 key (which creates something humanly impossible) that may get a user banned.
Locopuyo can take over from here, since you obviously didn't read his well thought out post
On December 28 2010 13:19 locopuyo wrote:
I agree macros give an unfair advantage and should never be allowed in professional play, but people are blowing it way out of proportion. People are acting as if you press one macro key and it activates a sophisticated AI that builds your base and wins for you as you sit and watch while eating a hot pocket.
The most advantageous useful macro you can do is only 2 key presses combined into 1. For example instead of pressing {1, a} you could press a single macro key {G1}. The macro keys aren't as close to the finger placement as the standard keys so it's also an extra reach. So the main advantage is you can press 2 button sequences slightly quicker than you could without them. This actually comes in handy less than you would think. Normally you have multiple barracks and want to build more than one marine at once. So instead of pressing {1, a, a} you can press {G1, G1}. You only had to press 2 buttons instead of 3. Eventually 5 buttons instead of 6, etc.
Most people get APM capped by idling because their build order and gameplay isn't refined enough. A couple keyboard macros aren't going to make much of a difference.
Faster hardware, higher precision mice, and even mechanical keyboards give much bigger advantage gaps than simple macros.
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Considering how the new patch will include custom key bindings, I believe that using the extra buttons on the peripherals for simple keystrokes (i.e. using the macro button for the '0' key for easier control group manipulation, or backspace) is fair game. HOWEVER anything more complicated then that gives an unfair advantage and is frowned upon.
The same argument can be made for grid players and standard players, is it unfair that I as a grid player make ultras by pressing q->c as opposed to s->u? No.
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You are allowed to remap keys, though, right? Like for example, if you had a razer mouse and played zerg, would binding your mouse4 (slide clicker) to backspace with the software that came with it be acceptable? I thought about doing it for zerg at one point, so that I wouldn't have to shift my hand on the keyboard to backspace v, backspace v, backspace v for injects. Doing mouse4 v, mouse 4 v, mouse 4 v, seemed easier (not saying putting them both on 1 button, just assigning my mouse button to be backspace). I know that they are going to be adding this function into upcoming patches anyways to remap keys to your liking.
I thought the only thing that was not allowed is multiple commands on one key, like v+backspace and just spam one button in the middle of your screen a few times. The inject function is annoying, because using backspace to toggle hatcheries seems like the most efficient way to go about it, yet the keys necessary for using the technique are on opposite ends of the keyboard.
Although, once they do release the re-mapping patch, I will be moving my U, I, and O keys to f1 f2 f3 (I hate that some of the important tech units are so far away from the natural hand position. I'm talking to you Immortals and Ultra/infestor! Ever made a round of infestors and think to yourself "where the hell are my ultras at?).
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In my opinion Gooey, though it has not be confirmed or disapproved by SC2 (Blizzard) I would say simple mapping of keys is not prohibited. Binding of keys though, is likely prohibited due to the obvious advantage. If I was you, I'd place shift and cntrl to my mouse and maybe spacebar: P (BTW if anyones curious I do not alter my keys at all)
Merlin
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they ban 2 buttons to 1 hotkey not 1 button to one hotkey and OP i remember your other post about cheese. you were calling cheesing players rude (for reasons i still cant figure out) but youre the one cheating. sad thing is youre still not diamond. if i had all these cheats id be top 200
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Bigbeau please elaborate on all these "cheats" he has. If you had operation cwal you'd still not be top 200. Please don't post some ridiclous statement which is insulting to someone who came on posting there opinions. It's ignorant and rude.
Out of curiosity, what is your rank, such that it must be impressive behond measure to give you the right to insult someone else over their legitimately bought product from Starcraft that gives him the right to Macro his keys in such a way that he did.
Point is Bigbeau, please just if you are trying to make any point at all, why not do it taking into consideration the way you are presenting it... Sure, you can be an ignorant little prick all you want and I'm not going to "Kill you" or threaten you in anyway to stop... Common decent behaviour is nice though when dealing in a mature way with a generally Adult orientated community.
Merlin.
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It's illegal and you'll hopefully get banned if caught.
It's definitely legal, but it's against Blizzard's terms. You can get banned but Blizzard isn't the government. Then can stop you from playing their game but they can't jail you for it.
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Cheating: A player gaining an unfair advantage through the use of third party products.
2 buttons on one hotkey is cheating.
Queen auto inject is so cheating. Infested Terran isn't so bad but still ridiculous.
And Im a 2.4k diamond and I obviously wouldn't be top 200 it's called hyperbole. As it stands in top 3k NA so yeah. I'm not saying I'm great or bragging but he's clearly cheating and then acting like it's not and also calling people who cheese rude which is just retarded. My only point is him still being bronze or gold or whatever is like someone who uses steroids getting cut from a varsity sport
edit: also I didn't know wtf operation cwal meant but I looked it up and I can guarantee you I'd be number one in the world with that cheat. Since you ignored my hyperbole I'm gonna go ahead and ignore yours
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First off his "thirdparty" product is actually not thirdparty... Do you know what the definition of "thirdparty" is because blizzard created Starcraft, Starcraft Broodwar and Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty. By this, if Blizzard's company creates a Mouse and Keyboard aimed at use for Starcraft that is no "thirdparty" product. So I geuss from your definition of cheating it's already a bit off, but I do understand where you are coming from, and I do agree it is "cheating" but if he isn't playing competetively then who gives a fuck.
Secondly, your point is never going to get across anyway because you do it in a rude and insulting manner "ope if he used steriods hehe... and got cut from varsity oh oh, heyyyyy that might be a good analogy for someone trying to learn SC and buying a product from Blizzard for the game and playing it with it's potential... I BETTER use this analogy to really fuck with this beginners head" who's just trying to get his name out a bit in the community.
How about you mind your P's and Q's so we can all just get along.
Merlin
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Okay argue semantics on my definition of cheating. How about cheating in starcraft: an act that will get you banned because blizzard doesn't allow it. It is their product you still can't have multibound macro keys. They probably are designed that way because of blizzards other huge game. You know, world of Warcraft? And he's cheating the people he's playing against. Idc what level unless it's with his friends and they are aware of it.
Only reason i'm being rude is op is rude in both his actions (by cheating) and his calling cheesers rude in another post. Read the whole other thread.
Lol I notice you didn't say anything about my rank either? You assume I was gold or lower?
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No I assumed you were high diamond, but it's not like your rank WoW'd me in any sense. But it's interesting to me, you're arguing that they "probably designed" this "maruader" keyboard for wc3 ya know... because what better way to incorporate a new keyboard with SC2 titles all over it, because wc3 needs a new one!
I read his other post. But everywhere you've tried to throw your posts around, they've all generally been slightly off or incorrect. For instance, find me a "rule" in Starcraft2, on Blizzard.com that states that using the "Starcraft" sponsored keyboard/mouse you may not use its functions that "They" created and placed on it to be used.
This topic is now, idiotic because you've pushed the agenda to an area where I don't approve of going, which is mindless arguments.
Have fun.
Merlin.
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I don't care if it's legal or illegal. Endorsed by Blizzard or forbidden. In my opinion this is blatantly cheating. Using a program to reduce the number of button presses you have to make? Of course that's a handicap. Any handicap like that is cheating. I hate the fact that people are even arguing against this. Needless to say people in this thread who are ok with cheating have less than 50 posts. x.x.
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No they designed it for sc2 obviously with the idea many of their players also play wow. Look it up yourself. Players have been banned for it. Although there is a debate whether blizzard bans just for third party keyboard macro buttons or all macro. If it's just third party then you everyone else and I can agree that that's ridiculous and stupid. Also it seems that this marauder keyboard is the wow keyboard with starcraft 2 overlay. Which is also some bullshit.
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I don't get why people would want to make the game easier. The reason i enjoy winning is cause its a bit challenging. Who cares if one can do an easy task.
If you wan't to play an easy game, go play COD or something.
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Using macros will not make you any better at the game, since they will not teach you how tot play.. They will only make little things faster, and not by very much. A battle isn't going to be won because you stimmed your marines 1/5 of a second faster, or because you can inject larvae one second faster, its won because you have consistently good macro and can make good decisions.
The infestor thing isnt a big deal since you can shift click infested terran and have them all come out at about the same time too.
Let the man do what he wants to, creating macros for more than one key is bannable but hes obviously not good at the game so i dont see how it effects anybody here.
None of us use the kind of macros you do, the only marcos we use aer ones which rebind one key to another key
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The game is only aware of the fact that a certain key was pressed. It has no idea if you pressed the key manually or somehow emulated it (it depends on the way you actually emulated the press, but generally... the game does not see the difference).
Speaking of morality.
You won't be allowed to use any sort of macro in serious tournaments. Apparently. That's why no serious player will ever use it. As for the trash players on the ladder (like you or me) – it depends on how seriously do you take the game. It is all about the attitude. If you consider using the macros okay, use it. If you don't – don't use it. Simple as that. If you are serious about the game and practice a lot, it doesn't even matter if your opponent uses it or not. Your opponent can't win a game with macros, he can just speed up some stuff. If I lose, it is not because my opponent used macros, it is because I lost. Do it better and you will win.
What? It isn't fair? Wake up, nobody gives a fuck about your opinion.
To all the "HULLO GUYS I MACRO, BUT MY MACROS ARE OK" guys: you either use it or not. Either admit it, or don't use it.
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Despite having a name that just screams troll, you probably have the best/most sensible post in this thread.
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Does it?  Have been using it for over 10 years by now.
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On December 28 2010 15:30 MERLIN. wrote:
First off his "thirdparty" product is actually not thirdparty... Do you know what the definition of "thirdparty" is because blizzard created Starcraft, Starcraft Broodwar and Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty. By this, if Blizzard's company creates a Mouse and Keyboard aimed at use for Starcraft that is no "thirdparty" product. So I geuss from your definition of cheating it's already a bit off, but I do understand where you are coming from, and I do agree it is "cheating" but if he isn't playing competetively then who gives a fuck.
Secondly, your point is never going to get across anyway because you do it in a rude and insulting manner "ope if he used steriods hehe... and got cut from varsity oh oh, heyyyyy that might be a good analogy for someone trying to learn SC and buying a product from Blizzard for the game and playing it with it's potential... I BETTER use this analogy to really fuck with this beginners head" who's just trying to get his name out a bit in the community.
How about you mind your P's and Q's so we can all just get along.
Merlin
You do realize this "third party" equipment really is "third party" equipment, right? Just because it has Starcraft 2 plastered all over it, doesn't change the fact that it is still a razer product.
The steelseries mousepads come with starcraft 2 art, if desired, but that doesn't make them any less of a third party product.
Macros are cheating. Plain and simple. I'm not bashing the original poster, because he obviously didn't know at the time of post, but now he does.
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Binding keystrokes to one key is cheating. Why not just make a macro which injecting all larvas perfectly each 20th second.
"Damn this zerg doesn't miss any larva injects!", unfortunately he would be significantly worse at live tournaments.
binding keystrokes = cheating
remapping hotkeys = not cheating
Thanks
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Well, I gotta say, I don't take the game seriously enough to cheat. Yeah, it's fun winning but it's not any fun cheating. I don't care for some of Blizzard's decisions with the interface.
Some of them are at best dated (lack of hotkey customization which is soon to be rectified) and at worst simply stubborn stupidity. I'm looking at you Zerg Macro mechanic. They need to add a button like the worker button that tells you when a Hatchery isn't making extra larvae. Even the stupidest battlefield commander can tell some idiot to 'Give me a report from the field when manufacturing is finished so we can start some more' but some of them make good sense.
Regardless, point being that some of these are considered genuine cheating by Blizzard (although the link that was shared earlier to an 'example' of Blizzard banning someone has expired and is from four months ago. )
And yeah, I tested making a macro for Zerg to Inject Larvae. Trust me, it doesn't work as well as I hoped. In fact, it's pretty terrible and I'm fairly certain I found the most refined way of doing that.
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Not that I endorse it, but I would think a macro for larvae inject would be simple, assuming you use the same hotkey for your queens everytime.
Macro would look something like: 4, v, backspace, mouse button 1, and just have that loop however many times you want.
Still, glad you decided cheating wasn't worth it =)
EDIT: Would mapping keystrokes to mouse buttons be okay? Will that be introduced with 1.2? (I couldn't get the PTR to work for some reason)
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Macros will get you banned, basically using extra buttons like macro keys like the ones on the side of the G110, Black widow, and many other keys. the extra buttons on the mouse is probably considered cheating if you use it.
Good luck, and dont get banned
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That's the actual macro I tried to use and it doesn't operate all that well. The A.I. is stupid and Queens tend to walk to the other side of the map instead of injecting about half the time.
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Um, I don't think using extra buttons will get you banned, what would is the macro of doing X actions in an unreasonable timeframe. What you speak of LanTAs is just remapping the hotkey afaik.
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On December 28 2010 17:16 roadrunner343 wrote:
Not that I endorse it, but I would think a macro for larvae inject would be simple, assuming you use the same hotkey for your queens everytime.
Macro would look something like: 4, v, backspace, mouse button 1, and just have that loop however many times you want.
Still, glad you decided cheating wasn't worth it =)
EDIT: Would mapping keystrokes to mouse buttons be okay? Will that be introduced with 1.2? (I couldn't get the PTR to work for some reason)
Exactly. You could say set the loop to run 8 times (you'll never have more bases than that in a game), and if you push the side button on your mouse you could inject every single base almost instantly. If that's not a huge advantage, I don't know what is. I would be WAY more on top my late game injects if it required that little focus and effort.
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blizz rule is pretty simple: one key press = one action.
so, one keypress to inject larva on all your hatcheries is cheating, same for selecting building and creating units, heck, even selecting a unit and A moving.
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On December 28 2010 17:19 LanTAs wrote:
Macros will get you banned, basically using extra buttons like macro keys like the ones on the side of the G110, Black widow, and many other keys. the extra buttons on the mouse is probably considered cheating if you use it.
Good luck, and dont get banned
This is very much false. You can use extra buttons at the side of the keyboard or on the mouse provided that they only make 1 keystroke per press. For example you can set it up so that pressing your middle mouse button down actually executes a keypress of "e" instead of MOUSE3.
This is not detectable, unfair, or illegal.
If you bind it to something like 2-e,e,e-3-v, (you get the point ... anything that executes more than 1 keypress) then *that* is illegal and bannable.
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On December 28 2010 17:26 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 17:19 LanTAs wrote:
Macros will get you banned, basically using extra buttons like macro keys like the ones on the side of the G110, Black widow, and many other keys. the extra buttons on the mouse is probably considered cheating if you use it.
Good luck, and dont get banned This is very much false. You can use extra buttons at the side of the keyboard or on the mouse provided that they only make 1 keystroke per press. For example you can set it up so that pressing your middle mouse button down actually executes a keypress of "e" instead of MOUSE3. This is not detectable, unfair, or illegal. If you bind it to something like 2-e,e,e-3-v, (you get the point ... anything that executes more than 1 keypress) then *that* is illegal and bannable.
That may not be bannable.. but it's incredible lame..
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On December 28 2010 17:33 Flexx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 17:26 Reason.SC2 wrote:On December 28 2010 17:19 LanTAs wrote:
Macros will get you banned, basically using extra buttons like macro keys like the ones on the side of the G110, Black widow, and many other keys. the extra buttons on the mouse is probably considered cheating if you use it.
Good luck, and dont get banned This is very much false. You can use extra buttons at the side of the keyboard or on the mouse provided that they only make 1 keystroke per press. For example you can set it up so that pressing your middle mouse button down actually executes a keypress of "e" instead of MOUSE3. This is not detectable, unfair, or illegal. If you bind it to something like 2-e,e,e-3-v, (you get the point ... anything that executes more than 1 keypress) then *that* is illegal and bannable. That may not be bannable.. but it's incredible lame..
Lol? Like 99% of games allow players to change what keys they press to carry out a function, anyone can change it if they wish, it's about making the user comfortable. Anyone can do it and it doesn't give anyone an advantage.
Entirely separate from the macro debate where multiple functions can be carried out with one button press.
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Why do some people here not realise the difference between macros that allow you to trigger multiple actions by clicking once, AND A GOD DAMN FRIGGIN' EXTRA BUTTON ON YOUR EXPENSIVE MOUSE/KEYBOARD?
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On December 28 2010 17:20 chessiecat wrote:
That's the actual macro I tried to use and it doesn't operate all that well. The A.I. is stupid and Queens tend to walk to the other side of the map instead of injecting about half the time.
You must not have the right number of queens hotkeyed, or not enough energy. I use these buttons (no macro) to inject and it works perfectly provided you have queens with energy near every hatch.
I'm fairly sure you could completely automate this macro to inject every time in less than half a second without even thinking about it. You could even make the camera come back to where it was, to make the process even smoother. And yes it's cheating.
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On December 28 2010 14:00 Ummbeefy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 12:04 chessiecat wrote:
The community seems to be vastly divided on this subject so if that's your metric then you're going to have a tough time. I'm failing to see the divide. This topic infuriates me. How do you not see this is cheating? I have to click two buttons. The game is designed this way. It takes more focus and effort. You click one button, same result. CHEATING. You will be banned for using macros. This has been discussed. The keyboard that says starcraft on it and has macro capability. The macros are cool. They can be used for many things that are not starcraft related.
The fact is, Blizzard endorsed this product. Blizzard supported and licensed this product. You would expect, a user would be allowed to use this product on a Blizzard game.
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One word... Razer Spectre gaming mouse... (and yes it supports macros).
http://www2.razerzone.com/sc2/spectre.php
I will be a cold day in hell before Blizzard bans anyone for using the official SC2 mouse to it's full potential. Obviously the tournaments will probably not allow macros until peoples attitudes change.
As you can tell probably I am firmly in the camp of allowing macros and that it's not cheating. I currently use a macro setup on my Razer Deathadder that allows me to larva inject with two mouse clicks per hatch (no keyboard). It's not really faster then a pro who has the macro technique down but for me it's very intuitive and easy to learn. I could adjust my macro and make it inject ALL the hatcheries but then you run a high risk of a queen going for a long walk. Also queens get sniped all the time and it only works when you have everything perfectly set up. So macros are not the "free lunch" everyone thinks they are.
Other reasons I don't believe this is cheating is because virtually EVERY gaming mouse supports macros. I suspect the vast majority of SC2 players who take the game serious already possess a mouse that supports macros. So this is available to everyone.
I believe within the next few years gaming mice will store the macros in the mice itself, thus no drivers will even be required, perfect for tournaments.
I predict eventually the controversy will subside (within 5-10 years tops) and setting up and using macros on your mouse and keyboard will become the new norm. Every professional gamer will use some sort of programmable keyboard or mouse with his own custom macros. Think about it SC2 will be huge, mouse and keyboard makers already cater to gamers, if they can come out with more macro features, that will sell more mice and keyboards, which could mean more sponsorships, prize money ETC. It's a win win for everyone. I believe the SC2 community should embrace macros and really any input device that makes SC2 easier to play.
Think about the anti macro argument for a minute... Basically it makes SC2 to easy... Or it takes away the skill required.... So using that logic maybe tournaments should make the game harder by disallowing "blank", maybe "grid hot keys" or maybe startup a "mouse only league" no hot-keys allowed at all. That would show some serious mouse skills right? Obviously I'm being ridiculous to make a point. Basically I believe creating artificial APM sinks is stupid IMHO.
As anyone who has actually tried to figure out the best way to use macros, you soon realize the advantage is minor and very situational. There also carries some risk because if conditions are not just right the macro will actually fail and hurt you.
This subject IMHO is not all that different from the MMS controversy, custom hot-keys or "playing random" being overpowered. Which all turned out to be non issues and mostly forgotten. I mean seriously, lets get with the times. If you can figure out a clever way to use a macro, more power to you. People have always used tools and technology to improve their competitive edge in all sports, look how racing technology has improved, traction control in racing is one example.
For me I will continue to you my larva inject macro with NO fear of being banned, and believe me, if I'm wrong and do get banned by blizzard I'll be sure to let everyone here at TL know.
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On December 28 2010 19:04 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 14:00 Ummbeefy wrote:On December 28 2010 12:04 chessiecat wrote:
The community seems to be vastly divided on this subject so if that's your metric then you're going to have a tough time. I'm failing to see the divide. This topic infuriates me. How do you not see this is cheating? I have to click two buttons. The game is designed this way. It takes more focus and effort. You click one button, same result. CHEATING. You will be banned for using macros. This has been discussed. The keyboard that says starcraft on it and has macro capability. The macros are cool. They can be used for many things that are not starcraft related. The fact is, Blizzard endorsed this product. Blizzard supported and licensed this product. You would expect, a user would be allowed to use this product on a Blizzard game.
Uhg. Once again, just because Blizzard licensed the starcraft name, logo, and artwork to Razer does not mean they had anything to do with the keyboard, nor does it mean they endorsed it, its software, or it's potentially illegal use.
Razer designed the keyboard, mouse, and headset... they are the ones that added the macro functionality, not blizzard. It's like saying SteelSeries' SC2 themed mats were endorsed by blizzard. It doesn't make a difference if you use macros on your Lycosa, the Black widow, or a G15... macros are macros, and Razer and Logitech are both third parties. Artwork doesn't mean anything.
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If I might can I ask a few questions of people in support of macros?
Why do you want to use macros for game play? If you know some of your opponents may not have the ability to do this what is the fun in doing it? <-- Why do you think it is fair to use macros vs an opponent that isn't? If your opponent has an advantage over you via some product they bought would you consider it ok?
I honestly don't really care that much because it's just a game for me however I do understand why these would never be allowed at a tournament play as stuff like this takes away from the idea that it is one man vs one man and instead one man vs one man plus. And I do totally agree that the only one it will hurt is the person who uses it as if they ever have to play without it they will get roflstomped most likely.
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Macros separate people of equal skill based on how much their equipment costs. It's just unfair to be able to invest more money and get a game advantage, no matter how slight.
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Considering you can download free keymappers and macro software for free, cost is not the issue. I don't support macros, but that's not the reason why.
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Lol macro your way to the top you'll never be able to enter big competitions anyways or any tournaments really so it doesn't bother me lol. even if somehow you manage to get to the tip top diamond levels if everyone sees your just using macros youll be a lolzstock anyways.
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In large part the macros I've played with so far that actually operate don't change the fundamentals of the game. Some of them patch holes in the interface, the most obvious and immediate being the inability to cast certain spells with groups of units selected and then switch back to primary spell casters without four button presses all over the keyboard. That's a simple control issue. Other RTS games have LONG since allowed you to select a group of spell casters and cast all of their spells from a single panel.
Blizzard released this game without Hot-key support and their initial hot-key setup is badly dated.
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I only got 1 macro on my mouse which is to type gl hf. Is that ok? XD
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On December 28 2010 11:24 chessiecat wrote:
Blizzard hasn't made any sort of statement regarding this and their SC2 peripherals as of yet. I've been hunting around for one but to date I am just not seeing anything.
If you can actually point me to someone on the Blizzard website and from Blizzard saying that these products are not for use with the game on ladder, it would be mightily appreciated. I'm going to edit the original post.
Blizzard actually stated that you can't have 1 button doing more than one action. You can rebind whatever you like as long as 1 button isn't doing more than 1 action.
Stop cheating.
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It seems so stupid blizzard launches these items with their own freaking name on them and the software needed to make macros, and then banning people when they use it. That's like putting a guy in a tent with a 17 year old girl and a bottle of champagn and a box of condoms and arresting him when they have sex.
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If Blizzard are endorsing products that allow violations of the ToS to occur, then what the fuck. What do you even say to that?
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On December 28 2010 22:31 branflakes14 wrote:
If Blizzard are endorsing products that allow violations of the ToS to occur, then what the fuck. What do you even say to that?
It's not the product, it's how you use it.
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On December 28 2010 22:33 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 22:31 branflakes14 wrote:
If Blizzard are endorsing products that allow violations of the ToS to occur, then what the fuck. What do you even say to that? It's not the product, it's how you use it.
One of the 3 big bulletpointed advertising points of the Marauder keyboard is "On-The-Fly Macro Recording allows for Effortless Configuration". As much as it's still a case of how people use it, it's still a bit silly.
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You can rebind whatever you like as long as 1 button isn't doing more than 1 action. So one button casting is fine? After all it's one button, one spell.
Turning certain spells into "global" actions that don't change your unit selection must be okay too, because it's one button, one spell.
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Wow you guys are really rigid in your views. It can't be cheating if Blizzard endorses it. If they ban him, they'd have to unban him as soon as he complains because he's doing what they TOLD him he could do. I'm pretty sure he could complain to the some form of agency if they did ban him because it would be a violation of his rights in terms of being sold a product that can't do what its advertised to do.
Lastly, my own opinion, but macros really aren't that bad. It makes the game easier, and therefore should in turn make the game more interesting because players can invest more time into things like micro.
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On December 28 2010 22:25 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 11:24 chessiecat wrote:
Blizzard hasn't made any sort of statement regarding this and their SC2 peripherals as of yet. I've been hunting around for one but to date I am just not seeing anything.
If you can actually point me to someone on the Blizzard website and from Blizzard saying that these products are not for use with the game on ladder, it would be mightily appreciated. I'm going to edit the original post. Blizzard actually stated that you can't have 1 button doing more than one action. You can rebind whatever you like as long as 1 button isn't doing more than 1 action. Stop cheating.
See, this is another one of these posts. Where did Blizzard say this? I want you to post it for me. I will require a place in the Terms of Service where it states that, despite being released, endorsed, advertised, and expressly encouraged for use by Blizzard...the program included with the Marauder Keyboard and Spectre mouse is cheating and is a ban-able offense.
I've been over the Terms of Service for Starcraft. They DO NOT make any mention of macro's. They mention bots, yes and most specifically third party software not endorsed or licensed by Blizzard. The software included with the peripherals is endorsed and licensed by Blizzard. It has a GIANT 'Licensed By Blizzard' sticker right on the box and another on the program itself.
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For the record, the idea of using a feature of a licensed peripheral getting you banned is nothing new, but the enforcement is usually pretty difficult. I just need to point to "turbo" controllers on Xbox Live as an example.
Regardless of whether or not you'll get banned for it, if you ever decide to compete outside of the Battle.net you'll be, at the very least, disqualified, so I'd advise against it. Furthermore, it's not so ridiculous that Blizzard has licensed a product that allows macros if they don't allow their use in their games. Making a "gaming" keyboard/mouse combo that didn't allow macros would be ridiculous.
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I think this just shows one of the inherent characteristics in the Starcraft 2 community. Because there's so much interaction between Blizzard and all the players, everyone feels so privileged and that because they bought the game, they have the right to dictate how it should be played. This was mostly in terms of balance, but now even with hardware setups? Honestly, I don't see the sense in "If I want to play the game as well as you do I have buy or install a 3rd party piece of equipment." And there's even people saying, "This game shouldn't be button mashing, I bought this to play a strategy game, not to just click buttons as fast as I can," which is completely the epitome of the self-deserving, new-age Starcraft 2 player.
I was a shitty Brood War player, about a D+ Terran, but when I played there was no talk about imbalance or macros or whatever. People just took the game as it was, and when someone on the forums would complain about some sort of imbalance, everyone would laugh at them and tell them to macro better, and then the thread would be locked. </When I was your age>
That said, I don't think macros are that big a deal. It might get a Bronze player into the Silver League but similar to building Probes and Pylons, it's not the action that's really the troubling part, it's actually remembering it. Getting this however-many-seconds advantage is undoubtedly useful, and it DOES add up, but I'm not sure how many replays of these people that you'd see that clearly show, "Oh yeah he TOTALLY won because his larvae inject was faster and he didn't have to click as many buttons." That inherent RTS sense that's there from playing tons of games and analyzing your own replays won't be there. But still, they shouldn't be used.
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On December 28 2010 23:01 chessiecat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 22:25 Numy wrote:On December 28 2010 11:24 chessiecat wrote:
Blizzard hasn't made any sort of statement regarding this and their SC2 peripherals as of yet. I've been hunting around for one but to date I am just not seeing anything.
If you can actually point me to someone on the Blizzard website and from Blizzard saying that these products are not for use with the game on ladder, it would be mightily appreciated. I'm going to edit the original post. Blizzard actually stated that you can't have 1 button doing more than one action. You can rebind whatever you like as long as 1 button isn't doing more than 1 action. Stop cheating. See, this is another one of these posts. Where did Blizzard say this? I want you to post it for me. I will require a place in the Terms of Service where it states that, despite being released, endorsed, advertised, and expressly encouraged for use by Blizzard...the program included with the Marauder Keyboard and Spectre mouse is cheating and is a ban-able offense. I've been over the Terms of Service for Starcraft. They DO NOT make any mention of macro's. They mention bots, yes and most specifically third party software not endorsed or licensed by Blizzard. The software included with the peripherals is endorsed and licensed by Blizzard. It has a GIANT 'Licensed By Blizzard' sticker right on the box and another on the program itself.
Was a blue post stating this I believe, was some time ago. Go look, if everyone is saying that they said it surely it's YOU who should be looking? Or better yet go submit a query.
Stop trying to justify cheating, it's just saddening.
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On December 28 2010 23:24 Animostas wrote:
I think this just shows one of the inherent characteristics in the Starcraft 2 community. Because there's so much interaction between Blizzard and all the players, everyone feels so privileged and that because they bought the game, they have the right to dictate how it should be played. This was mostly in terms of balance, but now even with hardware setups? Honestly, I don't see the sense in "If I want to play the game as well as you do I have buy or install a 3rd party piece of equipment." And there's even people saying, "This game shouldn't be button mashing, I bought this to play a strategy game, not to just click buttons as fast as I can," which is completely the epitome of the self-deserving, new-age Starcraft 2 player.
I was a shitty Brood War player, about a D+ Terran, but when I played there was no talk about imbalance or macros or whatever. People just took the game as it was, and when someone on the forums would complain about some sort of imbalance, everyone would laugh at them and tell them to macro better, and then the thread would be locked. </When I was your age>
That said, I don't think macros are that big a deal. It might get a Bronze player into the Silver League but similar to building Probes and Pylons, it's not the action that's really the troubling part, it's actually remembering it. Getting this however-many-seconds advantage is undoubtedly useful, and it DOES add up, but I'm not sure how many replays of these people that you'd see that clearly show, "Oh yeah he TOTALLY won because his larvae inject was faster and he didn't have to click as many buttons." That inherent RTS sense that's there from playing tons of games and analyzing your own replays won't be there. But still, they shouldn't be used.
in about 15 seconds toying with the macro software that came with my microsoft mouse, i figured out a macro that would build an scv with perfect timing for an entire game.
For Zerg you can do the same thing but for automatic injections, you dont even have to remember to press the button, just start the cycle once your first queen is out. And to resync it for new queens and bases, just press the reset button, get all queens in place, then click go.
This is obviously a huge advantage.
Just because you can't imagine a scenario of this type of software being abused "properly" doesn't mean such a scenario doesn't exist...
Infact of all the races i think Z would be the easiest to "macro" the macro.. if you know what I mean.
Since they don't need to place buildings for supply, it's possible to completely automate an entire opener like a roach rush, You'd have to to create hotkey setup per map for gas placement, but its still very possible and highly abusable.
"Click here to download 4gate macro - Guaranteed to get you to diamond!"
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On December 28 2010 23:35 ProtossGirl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 23:24 Animostas wrote:
I think this just shows one of the inherent characteristics in the Starcraft 2 community. Because there's so much interaction between Blizzard and all the players, everyone feels so privileged and that because they bought the game, they have the right to dictate how it should be played. This was mostly in terms of balance, but now even with hardware setups? Honestly, I don't see the sense in "If I want to play the game as well as you do I have buy or install a 3rd party piece of equipment." And there's even people saying, "This game shouldn't be button mashing, I bought this to play a strategy game, not to just click buttons as fast as I can," which is completely the epitome of the self-deserving, new-age Starcraft 2 player.
I was a shitty Brood War player, about a D+ Terran, but when I played there was no talk about imbalance or macros or whatever. People just took the game as it was, and when someone on the forums would complain about some sort of imbalance, everyone would laugh at them and tell them to macro better, and then the thread would be locked. </When I was your age>
That said, I don't think macros are that big a deal. It might get a Bronze player into the Silver League but similar to building Probes and Pylons, it's not the action that's really the troubling part, it's actually remembering it. Getting this however-many-seconds advantage is undoubtedly useful, and it DOES add up, but I'm not sure how many replays of these people that you'd see that clearly show, "Oh yeah he TOTALLY won because his larvae inject was faster and he didn't have to click as many buttons." That inherent RTS sense that's there from playing tons of games and analyzing your own replays won't be there. But still, they shouldn't be used. in about 15 seconds toying with the macro software that came with my microsoft mouse, i figured out a macro that would build an scv with perfect timing for an entire game. For Zerg you can do the same thing but for automatic injections, you dont even have to remember to press the button, just start the cycle once your first queen is out. And to resync it for new queens and bases, just press the reset button, get all queens in place, then click go. This is obviously a huge advantage. Just because you can't imagine a scenario of this type of software being abused "properly" doesn't mean such a scenario doesn't exist... Infact of all the races i think Z would be the easiest to "macro" the macro.. if you know what I mean. Since they don't need to place buildings for supply, it's possible to completely automate an entire opener like a roach rush, You'd have to to create hotkey setup per map for gas placement, but its still very possible and highly abusable. "Click here to download 4gate macro - Guaranteed to get you to diamond!"
...Oh shit yeah I didn't realize it could be that bad. That's just ridiculous then. -_- The fact that people are trying to justify that is insane.
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I've been messing with the macro program that comes with the Spectre since I got it. I can tell you flat out that this guy is lying his tail off and exaggerating the actual functionality of the software. It is prone to mis-clicks, missed injections, crashing when too many commands are issued, and all manner of other issues.
Thank you Numy...because surely, I would not have posted this without hunting through the forums and Terms of service. I have also said, pretty straightforwardly, that I haven't used these macro's in a ladder game yet. You can check my profile on the Blizzard website if you want to. I don't ladder very often and the games are dated. I think my win:loss ratio would be significantly higher if I were using magical macro buttons to build probes with perfect timing.
I want to use my macro's but I don't want to get banned from the game. I paid 50 bucks for it and I have no desire to get thrown off.
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I don't understand why you would want to be in diamond if you're not actually good enough to be there. Maphacks, macros, whatever... It seems silly. A little pathetic.
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Bottom line is if Blizzard sold the rights for Razer to make the devices- so people are going to use them. It's simply too confusing for the average user to have the company they bought the game from endorse a product and then somehow realize they're not supposed to be using it. Razer makes excellent hardware and Blizzard should either be more clear with the marketing on whats allowed, or not endorse it at all.
Most people are not going to shell out that much money to NOT use the product as advertised. Regardless on your opinions on if it's cheating or not.
Not that I macro, I have a 30 $ target mouse.
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Blizzard didn't just sell the rights to make the product. They helped with the creation and integration of the APM system and the alert system with Starcraft 2.
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Exactly! Even if you think this is cheating then you should be mad with Blizz, not the players. They are the ones avoiding the ToS (if it's even actually stated some macro is against the rules) to make more money.
You can run with the argument its not Blizzards problem how people use the product, but I think it's a bit shallow. If you look at the bottom of the page it says Blizzard licensed product.
http://www2.razerzone.com/sc2/spectre.php
The product is made with the intentioned usage of these "bannable" offenses. The people at Blizzard aren't retarded, they know what Razer does, and how they marketed the product they allowed them create. If there's any problems with confusion on whether or not it's cheating using Razer and Blizzard's products then I say it's Blizzards fault.
If it against the ToS then they shouldn't allow it to be sold with their name one it.
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I can't believe people are seriously trying to justify cheating, obviously in a high level ZvZ having better and fasfter injects CAN and WILL win you more games. Even pro players like darkforce start to slack on their injection after a while, because there are just too many things to do and having a macro that will do the same thing with less button presses can give you a HUGE advantage. Don't straight talk it with "it isn't THAT much of an advantage". SERIOUSLY? Just because you're cheating ( in your opinion ) a LITTLE bit means it's okay? People using macro's are cheating and should be banned.
And saying it's a failing program that misclicks all the time doesn't justify it either.
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Report it then. Get someone from Blizzard to actually get a statement. Post the statement. Seriously, you might get it faster than I will. Who knows? I sent them an e-mail. They'll get back to me eventually.
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As far as I know Blizzard wants one action per keystroke (I don't have a source, but this is all over the WoW boards and I'm sure I saw it on the SC2 boards).
Something a lot of people don't know is that you don't even need a "gaming keyboard" to create advance scripts and macros. With a program called autohotkey you are provided an immense amount of functionality, and this program doesn't require extra hardware. Another thing is that half the time this program provides more functionality and power than most gaming keyboards with custom software do!
Here is the thing, botting is obviously cheating. When your macros get so advance that you don't have to play the game then you're cheating. With some of these programs you can easily make it build a unit every so many seconds and with others you can do that as well as issue click commands so that you can also automate building placement and such. This is very much cheating, and any way you cut it you can't justify using this.
On the other hand I see no reason why a player cant assign his mouse wheel to left click. This pretty much simulates the ability to create a ton of infested terrans in half a second (holding shift to prevent you from having to hit the action hotkey again).
In the end I don't think you can group all of macros into an illegal category and be done with it. Some are obviously worse than others while some are harmless.
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Actually no it doesn't matter what the community thinks. Especially when "the community" is full of people who think RTS skill is about how fast your fingers can spam and not how fast or how well you think.
Seriously take a step back and ask yourself if you think waypoints ruined the game or if SCV's auto mining when rallied to a mineral patch his a bad thing. Dumb mindless clicking is not a good thing, ever. This is a strategy game, not tap tap revenge.
As far as the macros, what matters is what blizzard has said and until someone can show a statement by blizz or some part of the TOS that says using straight macros like these is not allowed then I'd say go ahead and use them.
In WoW blizzard's stance on macros was this: As long as the macros are not making decisions for you then it's okay. You could queue up things like 1->q or s->d, because you're just combining two actions and using those same two actions every time without any decision-making logic. These were actually supported in game. On the other hand anything that moved the mouse or contained conditional or dynamic logic was banned.
I'm not saying their policies on the games are the same, just pointing out that they're not necessarily against macros, and especially since this product is developed in conjunction with blizzard you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss its use.
Edit: Also, I haven't used the products from the OP but as far as I know there's no way to get macros to build SCV's consistently. The best you can do is program it to enter 5->q every 17s, but then if you don't have enough minerals or are supply blocked it waits another 17s to train another SCV.
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Some people really REALLY need to learn to differentiate between macros and bots....IF it's something that automates a process, like say making a scv every 17 seconds, without the requirement of a keypress, Thats a bot and is prohibited.
If it's a system that changes say 1 keypress into 2, thats a macro. A macro is not a bot. If it auto injects without any keypresses. Thats a bot. If it simply makes it so that by pressing button "A" it presses 5->V so you can click on the hatch to inject, thats a macro. That's also ubelievably minor. Actually someone who plays normally would prolly get messed up if they tried to use this macro for the first few days. And you should also realise that a macro like this is still a decision. You remember to inject so you press the button and click the hatch. You save a total of prolly .1 seconds actually.
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I think in the next patch blizzard is allowing players to remap hotkeys which will be great for me since i find it awkward to do certain things with my keyboard.
Btw im against macros, they are good for WoW but SC2 is tap tap revenge and from learning how to tap tap will open up minds to think creatively
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I can't believe people are seriously trying to justify cheating, I can't believe people are seriously trying to rationalize it as cheating.
Bots are one thing, but there's nothing wrong with making the game behave the way it SHOULD HAVE at release.
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OK so i have a G15 Keyboard
i have all Hatches on 0, so
G1 = 0,S (that selects all my larva on all the hatches)
G2 = 0,S, d,d,d,d,d,d,d,d ( i call that my drone hard button )
and then all the rest of the 4 G keys are set on each Queen
so i have each queen on 4, 5 , 6 ,7
G3 = 4,4, V
G4 = 5,5, V
and so on
anyways i am not going to get into the whole controversy of if this will get me banned or not, but i am just answering the OPs question
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On December 29 2010 03:48 gautamvirk86 wrote:
OK so i have a G15 Keyboard
i have all Hatches on 0, so
G1 = 0,S (that selects all my larva on all the hatches)
G2 = 0,S, d,d,d,d,d,d,d,d ( i call that my drone hard button )
and then all the rest of the 4 G keys are set on each Queen
so i have each queen on 4, 5 , 6 ,7
G3 = 4,4, V
G4 = 5,5, V
and so on
anyways i am not going to get into the whole controversy of if this will get me banned or not, but i am just answering the OPs question
Hmm I personally would rather put all queens on a button macroed with V, then hold shift and just use the minimap. I feel it would be faster that way.
ANd yeht eh controversy is stupid. People don't know the difference between Macros and bots.
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On December 29 2010 03:40 bobucles wrote:I can't believe people are seriously trying to rationalize it as cheating. Bots are one thing, but there's nothing wrong with making the game behave the way it SHOULD HAVE at release.
So the game should allow you to make one button do multiple actions? No it should not. Remapping hotkeys IS fine and condoned. Creating macros are not and is cheating.
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logitech g9x, put side buttons to 7/8 typically i only use 7 to bind broodlords for late game, thus barely ever use it.
other binds
if i'm going roach hydra brood: 1/2/7 respectively
muta sling bling brood: muta-1 sling/bling-2 brood-7
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dgReborn December 29 2010 03:50. Posts 232
Hmm I personally would rather put all queens on a button macroed with V, then hold shift and just use the minimap. I feel it would be faster that way.
ANd yeht eh controversy is stupid. People don't know the difference between Macros and bots.
Yeah i am not a big fan of Map spewing larva trick. plus i couldnt think of anything else to do with the rest of the G keys of the whole queen thing was perfect for me.
May i also suggest using the extra queen and putting in the macro as 6, 6, C (6 being the hotkey for queen) and then you can always use it to spread creep as long as u can time it with the rest of the queens it works great so i spew spew with the first two and then i POO with the extra one
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On December 29 2010 03:54 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 03:40 bobucles wrote:I can't believe people are seriously trying to justify cheating, I can't believe people are seriously trying to rationalize it as cheating. Bots are one thing, but there's nothing wrong with making the game behave the way it SHOULD HAVE at release. So the game should allow you to make one button do multiple actions? No it should not. Remapping hotkeys IS fine and condoned. Creating macros are not and is cheating.
afaik, wow pve and pvp is filled with macros which are blizzard sanctioned and creating macros thru your mouse/keyboard is the same thing just using software that isn't sanctioned by blizzard, but also, in their EULA it doesn't say you can't use: logitech setpoint blah blah. thus, it is legal and ppl who whine it isn't are fags. moreover, most people who use macros aren't good anyway seeing they are typically for people w/ lower apm.
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I seriously think we should move the whole legal issue on to another thread, because i would really like to hear what other people are using as there macro keys.
Lets just stick with what the OP wanted to go with.
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On December 29 2010 04:00 majestouch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 03:54 Numy wrote:On December 29 2010 03:40 bobucles wrote:I can't believe people are seriously trying to justify cheating, I can't believe people are seriously trying to rationalize it as cheating. Bots are one thing, but there's nothing wrong with making the game behave the way it SHOULD HAVE at release. So the game should allow you to make one button do multiple actions? No it should not. Remapping hotkeys IS fine and condoned. Creating macros are not and is cheating. afaik, wow pve and pvp is filled with macros which are blizzard sanctioned and creating macros thru your mouse/keyboard is the same thing just using software that isn't sanctioned by blizzard, but also, in their EULA it doesn't say you can't use: logitech setpoint blah blah. thus, it is legal and ppl who whine it isn't are fags. moreover, most people who use macros aren't good anyway seeing they are typically for people w/ lower apm.
WoW macros are all 1 button one action. In order for it to do more than 1 action you have to either press it more than once(sequence) or create another macro. The only difference is stuff like mouseover or other selection also stuff off CGD which generally isn't that important.
This is a perfect example of cheating:
On December 29 2010 03:48 gautamvirk86 wrote:
OK so i have a G15 Keyboard
i have all Hatches on 0, so
G1 = 0,S (that selects all my larva on all the hatches)
G2 = 0,S, d,d,d,d,d,d,d,d ( i call that my drone hard button )
and then all the rest of the 4 G keys are set on each Queen
so i have each queen on 4, 5 , 6 ,7
G3 = 4,4, V
G4 = 5,5, V
and so on
anyways i am not going to get into the whole controversy of if this will get me banned or not, but i am just answering the OPs question
1 button doing 10 actions.
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This thread is making me look forward to the fumes emanating from TL when Starcraft 3 comes out in 2020, when you can tell queue CC lifts/lands after construction, auto-maynard workers when the new hatch/CC/Nexus is done, tell unit-producing structures to auto-queue the next unit, put rallied units on A-move, hotkey regions of the map, set production & research priorities when your resources are too low, provide formations to make it easy to avoid unit clumping, use brain-computer interface to perform actions without even clicking or typing, etc. The outrage will be ****ing epic.
on-topic: while what makes starcraft hard is the multitasking, the stuff that is macroable is not the kind of multitasking that is hard. If you can remember to build units during the heat of battle, whether you have to hit "4ss3aaad<tab>ss<tab>vd" or the WIN button doesn't make that much difference. The hard part is remembering to do all that stuff in the first place. Use keyboard/mouse macros all you want; if your unit composition and positioning still sucks, or you forget to hit your production macros when the early harassment comes in, you'll still lose.
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Anything that reduces the amount of key clicks (like having a button that selects your barracks then immediately ques up a marine) is against the rules according to blizzard. You can remap your keyboard/mouse however you like, but if you do it to reduce the number of clicks you are by definition cheating (not that I care, maphacks, unit glitchs, immortal hacks, all mean more to me). Thats all I know about it.
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On December 29 2010 04:01 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 04:00 majestouch wrote:On December 29 2010 03:54 Numy wrote:On December 29 2010 03:40 bobucles wrote:I can't believe people are seriously trying to justify cheating, I can't believe people are seriously trying to rationalize it as cheating. Bots are one thing, but there's nothing wrong with making the game behave the way it SHOULD HAVE at release. So the game should allow you to make one button do multiple actions? No it should not. Remapping hotkeys IS fine and condoned. Creating macros are not and is cheating. afaik, wow pve and pvp is filled with macros which are blizzard sanctioned and creating macros thru your mouse/keyboard is the same thing just using software that isn't sanctioned by blizzard, but also, in their EULA it doesn't say you can't use: logitech setpoint blah blah. thus, it is legal and ppl who whine it isn't are fags. moreover, most people who use macros aren't good anyway seeing they are typically for people w/ lower apm. WoW macros are all 1 button one action. In order for it to do more than 1 action you have to either press it more than once or create another macro. The only difference is stuff like mouseover or other selection. This is a perfect example of cheating: Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 03:48 gautamvirk86 wrote:
OK so i have a G15 Keyboard
i have all Hatches on 0, so
G1 = 0,S (that selects all my larva on all the hatches)
G2 = 0,S, d,d,d,d,d,d,d,d ( i call that my drone hard button )
and then all the rest of the 4 G keys are set on each Queen
so i have each queen on 4, 5 , 6 ,7
G3 = 4,4, V
G4 = 5,5, V
and so on
anyways i am not going to get into the whole controversy of if this will get me banned or not, but i am just answering the OPs question 1 button doing 10 actions.
1 button doing 10 actions? Are you retarded? The only one that can be considered doing that is the second one and even that is pushing it. Every single other one simply selects the building/queen and sets your curser as spawn larva or selects larva. And by that logic i actually think the second one is worse then just pressing 4,s,hold d as the macro has a limit.
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Macros in a RTS game are cheating, plain and simple.. need advice on how to cheat better? Go to the battle.net forums, the mods can help.
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Macros break this game if you use them don't expect to run in a tourney with them... as with a macro you can pretty much make it so it automatically selects your Command center/hatch/nexus and have it build a worker when the timer reaches its end. this is a scripting macro and is easily do able with 3rd party programs. i wouldn't recommend playing this game with macros as it violates blizzards terms n service agreement and could cause the loss of your account.
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Ok let me restate this cause for some reason a lot of people are not understanding the extremely simple concept.
Macros (which bind 1 key to multiple keystroke assignments) are illegal, against the Terms of Service, and you *will* be banned if/when blizz finds out you're using them. + Show Spoiler +no it does not matter if you're using razer peripherals that say "starcraft 2" on them... its still against the ToS and quite obviously dumbs down the game in a way that would make it pretty stupid. A well-designed macro could execute a 4-gate rush with literally one click up until the point where you have to micro. Is that what you want to happen to SC2, morons?
Rebinding keys (via mouse/keyboard drivers + software, or via Starcraft 2 menu on PTR) is not illegal. It may provide an advantage if you find a very optimal key layout that increases your physical APM cap, but is confirmed to be supported by Blizzard in the upcoming patch. + Show Spoiler +not to mention that starcraft 2 is pretty much the only new game in which you weren't able to fully customize your keys from the outset... this is standard practice and levels the playing field for people who use their right hand for keyboard hand, or who have very small hands and can't constantly span accross the keyboard to reach some things... ffs I see minigun, who is a very good player, using his mouse to build immortals because of the inconvenient key layout.
Anyways if that doesn't clear it up for whoever is still under the impression that macros are legal or that rebinding keys is illegal, then i'm not sure I know what will.
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Some people really REALLY need to learn to differentiate between macros and bots....IF it's something that automates a process, like say making a scv every 17 seconds, without the requirement of a keypress, Thats a bot and is prohibited.
If it's a system that changes say 1 keypress into 2, thats a macro. A macro is not a bot. If it auto injects without any keypresses. Thats a bot. If it simply makes it so that by pressing button "A" it presses 5->V so you can click on the hatch to inject, thats a macro. That's also ubelievably minor. Actually someone who plays normally would prolly get messed up if they tried to use this macro for the first few days. And you should also realise that a macro like this is still a decision. You remember to inject so you press the button and click the hatch. You save a total of prolly .1 seconds actually.
This. Having one key do multiple actions is botting. It is using a third-party program (in this case this means a program NOT Starcraft 2, it does not mean a program created/endorsed by someone other than Blizzard) to perform automated actions for you. That's a bot.
I'd also like to address the "fixing the interface" argument. This is Blizzard's product, thus they dictate the interface. If you don't like how things are done or think they are archaic then it is your responsibility to tell Blizzard that so THEY can fix it. It is not up to you to fix their product, and if they don't want to change something (they are adding the ability to remap hotkeys) then it is working as they INTENDED and by you using bots you are breaking their game. It is Blizzard's game, they decide how we should play it. If you don't like how it's played then don't play it. If you are finding a way to play in a manner other than the one they intended for you to use, they have every right to ban you, especially when its giving you an advantage over other legitimate players in a multiplayer game. Otherwise adapt and play it like everyone else and play it the way Blizzard meant it to be played.
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yeah i was wondering why HuK has 8 set to his scouting probe. lol
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On December 28 2010 19:58 roadrunner343 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 19:04 holynorth wrote:On December 28 2010 14:00 Ummbeefy wrote:On December 28 2010 12:04 chessiecat wrote:
The community seems to be vastly divided on this subject so if that's your metric then you're going to have a tough time. I'm failing to see the divide. This topic infuriates me. How do you not see this is cheating? I have to click two buttons. The game is designed this way. It takes more focus and effort. You click one button, same result. CHEATING. You will be banned for using macros. This has been discussed. The keyboard that says starcraft on it and has macro capability. The macros are cool. They can be used for many things that are not starcraft related. The fact is, Blizzard endorsed this product. Blizzard supported and licensed this product. You would expect, a user would be allowed to use this product on a Blizzard game. Uhg. Once again, just because Blizzard licensed the starcraft name, logo, and artwork to Razer does not mean they had anything to do with the keyboard, nor does it mean they endorsed it, its software, or it's potentially illegal use. Razer designed the keyboard, mouse, and headset... they are the ones that added the macro functionality, not blizzard. It's like saying SteelSeries' SC2 themed mats were endorsed by blizzard. It doesn't make a difference if you use macros on your Lycosa, the Black widow, or a G15... macros are macros, and Razer and Logitech are both third parties. Artwork doesn't mean anything.
Actually, the TOS says that you cannot use any third party programs not licensed by Blizzard. Well guess what? When you open the software it has a huge "Licensed by Blizzard" logo on it. Sounds legal to me. There is no other statement in the TOS that would apply here.
Try again.
Also, the Blackwidow keyboard is the safest for macros as the keyboard sends individual keypresses to your computer when you press a macro button, unlike other keyboards which has the software do it. Therefore, it is impossible to catch.
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So because you think rts' shouldn't be about clicking really fast you think it's okay to use a program/cheat that removes a big part of the clicking and thus makes the game alot easier for you, giving you an advantage over your opponent who does not use this cheat. I can't think of a more flawed argument. You're modifying a program because YOU think the interface is bad but thereby giving you an unfair advantage over your opponent and it's justified because in your opinion blizzard made a flawed game.
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The stupidity here blows my mind.
Of course the artwork and starcraft 2 name are "Licensed by blizzard," how else would Razer be allowed to use it?
Again, it's still a RAZER keybord. It's not made by blizzard. You do not have the right to use all of the macro functions in game. RAZER advertises the macro abilities, not blizzard. Blizzard does not endorse the use of the macro functions.
And back to the example of steelseries gaming mats... they are blizzard licensed too. They sport some awesome SC2 artwork. This does not make them the "Official starcraft 2 gaming mat" anymore than it makes razer's peripherals "Official Starcraft 2 peripherals."
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I too have 1-button casting
Usually, while controlling my Stalkers, I push "B" and press a location to use my Blink micro, I feel that's the best way to do it. Also, when I want to storm I select my Temps and press "T" on an area. This "storm micro technique" as I have dubbed it has been working out pretty well for me since 2007
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I have used autohotkey to create a variety of macros that I have not yet used in ladders because they are totally imba. I have a bunch of fairly innoculous ones for things like worker micro, and spell casting, but I also have some hardcore ones, like the auto injector, and my all time favorite: the automatic burrower. It can detect any red roaches in my current selection and automatically burrow them, and then pop them up again when they are green again. Totally cheating, but super awesome.
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Some of this stuff in this thread makes me sad.
Do it yourself people. Don't cheat.
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On December 29 2010 10:41 captncraig wrote: It can detect any red roaches in my current selection and automatically burrow them, and then pop them up again when they are green again. Totally cheating, but super awesome. Wait. Autohotkey can do what?
Although it would be totally bad ass for roaches to have auto cast burrowing.
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It's called integrity.
Apparently, it's hard to come by in this community. (Which I really didn't expect.)
It really doesn't matter what buttons you re-bind, what macros you use, or what sort of bullshit scripts/bots you decide are worth utilizing. The bottom line is that you're not playing the game the way it is meant to be played by the vast majority of players, and thus any sort of win, or level (points) achieved is not worth shit. You're a cheater by definition, and what's worse, you don't SEE the problem with it.
It's not about comfort, it's not about fixing a crap interface, it's not about an endorsed product, and it's not about what you can and cannot due with the limitations of the hard/software. It's about integrity, ethics and some freaking morality. Grow up, and play the game like it's mean to be played.
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On December 29 2010 11:31 Flexx wrote:
It's called integrity.
Apparently, it's hard to come by in this community. (Which I really didn't expect.)
It really doesn't matter what buttons you re-bind, what macros you use, or what sort of bullshit scripts/bots you decide are worth utilizing. The bottom line is that you're not playing the game the way it is meant to be played by the vast majority of players, and thus any sort of win, or level (points) achieved is not worth shit. You're a cheater by definition, and what's worse, you don't SEE the problem with it.
It's not about comfort, it's not about fixing a crap interface, it's not about an endorsed product, and it's not about what you can and cannot due with the limitations of the hard/software. It's about integrity, ethics and some freaking morality. Grow up, and play the game like it's mean to be played.
I wouldn't mark the whole community by a couple bad apples.
Every community has a sheriff. There are bad people everywhere.
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You're a cheater by definition, and what's worse, you don't SEE the problem with it.
It's not about comfort, it's not about fixing a crap interface, it's not about an endorsed product, and it's not about what you can and cannot due with the limitations of the hard/software. It's about integrity, ethics and some freaking morality. Grow up, and play the game like it's mean to be played. So I lose integrity by helping my friends play better, so that we can have more fun playing Starcraft?
Bad. Ass.
+ Show Spoiler +Starcraft. Serious Business.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 29 2010 11:54 bobucles wrote:Show nested quote +You're a cheater by definition, and what's worse, you don't SEE the problem with it.
It's not about comfort, it's not about fixing a crap interface, it's not about an endorsed product, and it's not about what you can and cannot due with the limitations of the hard/software. It's about integrity, ethics and some freaking morality. Grow up, and play the game like it's mean to be played. So I lose integrity by helping my friends play better, so that we can have more fun playing Starcraft? Bad. Ass. + Show Spoiler +Starcraft. Serious Business.
No one cares what you do with your friends. Just don't bring it onto ladder.
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Or if you do bring it on ladder, don't be stupid enough to tell everyone -_-
To those saying it isn't cheating: Just because you are not hacking, doesn't mean you're not cheating. You can definitely do some complex macros that are almost as bad as hacking. So yeah, it's not the same as hacking, but it's still unfair and not permitted.
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Ugh who even cares, it's not going to change anything a great deal, if you're a half decent player you're going to be doing everything at a similar rate to Macroboy anyway.
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On December 29 2010 11:54 bobucles wrote:Show nested quote +You're a cheater by definition, and what's worse, you don't SEE the problem with it.
It's not about comfort, it's not about fixing a crap interface, it's not about an endorsed product, and it's not about what you can and cannot due with the limitations of the hard/software. It's about integrity, ethics and some freaking morality. Grow up, and play the game like it's mean to be played. So I lose integrity by helping my friends play better, so that we can have more fun playing Starcraft? Bad. Ass. + Show Spoiler +Starcraft. Serious Business.
Do you know what is not "fun"? What's not fun is losing to a player that has an unfair advantage over you. That's not fun at all. But you're ok with it... as long as you're the one with the advantage. Because you are having fun.
To be perfectly honest with you it's EXACTLY the same thing as steroids. Anyone can get them, anyone can use them. Hell, they aren't even very hard to hide from testing. The point though, is that people who use them are cheating. Those who don't use them have integrity, those who do lack it. Period.
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I use the Razor Spectre to. I want to make a macro that goes something like r click r click r click, so when I use ghosts they would all snipe what ever my cursor is over really fast. The problem is when I try using it in the game 1 ghost would snipe and I would have the unit I was trying to snipe selected.
All I want is to set a macro where I can just move my mouse across the enemy units with ghosts selected, and have all the units die, or have all the ghosts run out of energy before they die.
If you know how to set it up using the Spectre, thanks!
Also, lets keep this thread on topic, its about what macros we use, not if we can use them, which we can.
Edit:
I'm also trying to set up a macro where it says hello and GL HF at the start. When I use it , it takes about 8 seconds to type out with a even delay between each key stroke. How do I fix this?
Edit: Yes I did have "ignore delay between events" checked off, am I missing something?
Edit: I fixed the second problem with GL HF macro, nevermind.
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I can't imagine why it wouldn't work provided it went; enter, g, l, , h, f, enter, or the caps variant if you prefer.
Also the steroids analogy only works for tournaments, where they aren't allowed anyway.
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To be perfectly honest with you it's EXACTLY the same thing as steroids Wow. Ease off on the MAD. Seriously. You aren't the Blizzard Balance Defense Force.
Besides, using macros is more like football players using code words for known plays. If you pick the wrong strategy, or can't adapt to a changing field, you still lose. The only issue here is making sure everyone gets the same play book.
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its just a feature thats added to the product. it's not allowed in this game or any blizzard games but it is allowed in other games so they didnt leave the feature out. fact is using them is flat out cheating. no ifs ands or buts.
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Bobucles: I'll agree with you on easing off the mad...
But Macros are nowhere near using "code words." Macros allow you to perform an infinite number of actions instantly, assuming you know how to program them. It's not "code" for anything...
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Am I the only one who has visited every CheesieCat thread in the last week and left flabergasted by the topic at hand? I mean has the TeamLiquid Strat thread really denegraded to the point where topics like this warrant 7 pages of responses!? No you are not allowed macros, and if you think you are...what the hell are you doing on a SC enthusiast site?
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On December 29 2010 13:17 bobucles wrote:Wow. Ease off on the MAD. Seriously. You aren't the Blizzard Balance Defense Force. Besides, using macros is more like football players using code words for known plays. If you pick the wrong strategy, or can't adapt to a changing field, you still lose. The only issue here is making sure everyone gets the same play book.
I loath cheating, and I despise unfair game play... I need no other reason than that to post in this thread.
Back on topic:
You're wrong... macro's are much more akin to people using weighted boxing gloves.
By your logic, I'm picking an incorrect strategy by refusing to use outside help to play the game in a non-standard way? Sensible...
None of these things will ever, ever be allowed in tournaments. Do you know why? Because they give the player using them and unfair advantage over a player who is not.
These things are not a sign of the times. They are not gameplay advancements that will shape the future of how Starcraft is played. They are a crutch for the weak. They are used by those who cannot compete fairly and honestly.
I promise you this, the professional scene will not tolerate these (or any other) types of macros/rebinds. Why hold yourself to anything but the most premium of standards?
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Please, can you stay on topic? If you want to argue if macros are illegal or not make another thread or something. I came here expecting to find some good macros I could use for my Spectre, not argue about if macros are illegal, which they are not.
I'm interested in what the OP meant by EMP's are single click and I have a macro set to super-quickly (when I have a group of marines, marauders, and ghosts selected) switch to the Marines and stim instantly (less than one millisecond) then switch back to the Ghosts.
Care to elaborate? Sounds interesting.
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For all this whining about it being wrong or cheating I STILL haven't seen a direct quote from Blizzard or their ToS showing that it is.
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On December 29 2010 13:38 Hubris wrote:
For all this whining about it being wrong or cheating I STILL haven't seen a direct quote from Blizzard or their ToS showing that it is.
On October 02 2010 07:07 JinDesu wrote:
The 1:1 rule comes from where if you map 2 or more actions to 1 key, you have an advantage over someone who cannot do 2 actions on one key. This is directly against the EULA bit where it disallows advantages provided by hacking or third party programs:
"A "hack" or "third party" program is any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment, that is used to modify, cheat, or alter Blizzard Entertainment games. These may include, but are not limited to:
- Programs that enhance players unnaturally
- Programs that modify units
- Programs that cause other players to disconnect from the game servers, or cause server/game crashes"
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Here is Blizzard's stance on it.
The sixth header states:
Exploitation and Client/Server Manipulation Policy
This document details Blizzard Entertainment's stance on the use of third-party programs or utilities, bug exploitation, usage of user interface modifications, and client/server manipulation. The factor that links these various policies is that they are all considered "cheating" and our intent is to keep the playing field level for all players.
The header is a link that points here, of which the first quote and the following paragraph are quite interesting to the "debate" in this thread:
Unapproved Third Party Software
A third party program is any file or program that is not a part of the StarCraft II software, but is used to gain an advantage in the game, such as increasing your resource gathering rate or map visibility. It also includes any programs that obtain information from the game that is not normally available to the regular player or that transmit or modify any of the game files. Any external applications that are used in conjunction with StarCraft II can cause quite a few unwanted side effects. Some of the major possible results of the use of third party programs can be instability of the game to the point that a player "crashes" from the game quite often.
Unwanted anomalies have already been stated in this thread, such as the queens moving across the map.
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On December 29 2010 13:40 Keldrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 07:07 JinDesu wrote:
The 1:1 rule comes from where if you map 2 or more actions to 1 key, you have an advantage over someone who cannot do 2 actions on one key. This is directly against the EULA bit where it disallows advantages provided by hacking or third party programs:
"A "hack" or "third party" program is any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment, that is used to modify, cheat, or alter Blizzard Entertainment games. These may include, but are not limited to:
- Programs that enhance players unnaturally
- Programs that modify units
- Programs that cause other players to disconnect from the game servers, or cause server/game crashes"
A "hack" or "third party" program is any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment
It says right on it, "Licensed Blizzard Product".
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Oh, the link is summed up with:
While certain actions may not bother you, consider the fact that these same actions may be perceived in a completely different manner by those around you.
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Unapproved Third Party Software
A third party program is any file or program that is not a part of the StarCraft II software, but is used to gain an advantage in the game, such as increasing your resource gathering rate or map visibility. It also includes any programs that obtain information from the game that is not normally available to the regular player or that transmit or modify any of the game files. Any external applications that are used in conjunction with StarCraft II can cause quite a few unwanted side effects. Some of the major possible results of the use of third party programs can be instability of the game to the point that a player "crashes" from the game quite often.
Looks like a blizzard product to me. Why would it be Unapproved Third Party Software?
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On December 29 2010 13:47 Trion wrote:Show nested quote +Unapproved Third Party Software
A third party program is any file or program that is not a part of the StarCraft II software, but is used to gain an advantage in the game, such as increasing your resource gathering rate or map visibility. It also includes any programs that obtain information from the game that is not normally available to the regular player or that transmit or modify any of the game files. Any external applications that are used in conjunction with StarCraft II can cause quite a few unwanted side effects. Some of the major possible results of the use of third party programs can be instability of the game to the point that a player "crashes" from the game quite often. Looks like a blizzard product to me. Why would it be Unapproved Third Party Software?
its not a blizzard product. typically its a razer or steelseries product but im not sure exactly which product you are speaking of. im guessing probably the razer spectre/marauder
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It is a Blizzard product. It's advertised on their website, it has 'Blizzard' on the packaging, on the software, on the product itself, on the sale's page, and Blizzard contributed to the integration of the alarm system and the APM system with StarCraft 2 specifically.
So please, tell us how it's not a Blizzard product. Maybe if you say it louder it'll help. Try Capslock.
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Well IMO, macro keys won't get you far, keep in mind that since macro keyboard means MORE KEYS added on the side of the key board. This would put you in a disadvantage because you wont be able to move back and forth between hot keys+macro keys, compared to the player who doesn't use macro keys and rely's on PURE HOTKEY LOVE because he will simply have more practice in using all his hotkeys too often.
Again MACRO keys will put in a disadvantage in the long run because you will be missing the key features of the game to help you grow and be better at this game.
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For about the fourth time this thread: Licensing a freaking name doesn't make it a "Blizzard" product.
The Razer Marauder is no more a Blizzard product than the Razer Lycosa... or the Logitech G15 for that matter. All three of them are third party products. Licensing a name doesn't mean it's a Blizzard product.
I suppose Blizzard makes "official" mouse pads too, not steel series... right? Somebody shoot me now, the stupidity is overwhelming. I'd expect to have to explain it once, but I've done it what... 3, 4 times now? And I've seen other people explain the same thing. And for everyone of our replies, there's another 3-4 idiots saying the same, incorrect horse crap about the Marauder being an "Official Blizzard Product."
I fell in love with the TL forums because this kind of stupidity didn't exist... could you return the the battlenet forums please?
EDIT: ROFL... advertising something on your website makes it YOUR product? Google owns about 90% of the internet... hell, I saw this gear advertised on amazon... it must be an OFFICIAL (Caps for you Chessicat) Amazon product then.
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I personally don't think you'd get banned for using macro keys. Maybe they would give you a warning... But they wouldn't ban fellow customers for something that 99.9% of people don't read.
I mean sure, don't cheat or hack, that's pretty straight forward and common sense, I can understand a ban for that, but you buy a new mouse, why wouldn't you use macro keys. Anyways on topic, I have a Razer Deathadder, and it has two macro keys, I was really trying to put them into use, but there really wasn't any use for them as protoss. With that said, I don't mind not using the macro keys, it's not a big deal, afterall, SC2 is a RTS, make macro as easy you want for yourself, you'll still lose in the strategy and micro part of the game.
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I'm going to get a case of the giggles if I get to post a reply in this thread in three days that is Blizzard saying 'Yeah, sure, use the macro's. Just don't use bots'.
I've got another question. If all of those things don't make this an official Blizzard product...what is required for it to be an official Blizzard product?
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I'm already giggling about how many people care about such a non issue.
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1 key press = 1 action.
anything else is cheating in my book.
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On December 29 2010 14:42 chessiecat wrote:
I'm going to get a case of the giggles if I get to post a reply in this thread in three days that is Blizzard saying 'Yeah, sure, use the macro's. Just don't use bots'.
I've got another question. If all of those things don't make this an official Blizzard product...what is required for it to be an official Blizzard product?
blizzard would have to have designed and made and distributed it. which is what Razer did.
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They assisted with the design and they advertise it on a link from their website. That seems pretty straightforward.
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I have Double click on mouse scroll down thats all
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They assisted with the design and they advertise it on a link from their website. That seems pretty straightforward.
You're just being extremely ignorant, like all cheaters are. They don't want to KNOW ( caps, eh?) that they're cheating because then all their wins and accomplishments would suddenly mean shit.
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Getting called names is getting a bit old, I've got to admit.
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You're just being extremely ignorant, like all cheaters are. It's not cheating, because fighting the Starcraft II interface isn't a competitive E-sport.
Outsmarting your opponent IS.
If macros make your guys fight harder, your workers mine faster, and heals your units for free, then there is a problem.
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On December 29 2010 23:04 chessiecat wrote:
Getting called names is getting a bit old, I've got to admit.
Reading shitty threads which you start is getting a bit old, I've got to admit.
In two weeks you have posted 37 times.
Most of them have been in your own threads.
In two weeks you have started 7 threads. They all have been answered multiple times and come with great discussion points such as, Dealing with The Early Ghost in PVT, 4-gate Forge Cannon Push?,
Who is the Protoss Hero?, Effective Use of Stalker/Zealot?, Was Brood War as Cheese heavy as SC2?,
Multi-Player Unit Tester?.
And lest I forget, the best of all. The Fear Of Bronze.
Play some games instead of thinking up terrible threads and openly acknowledging that you cheat and cannot advance leagues. This should alleviate the name calling. Frankly your posting is trash.
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I think I said pretty blatantly that I don't cheat. I think I also said I hadn't used any of these macro's on the ladders and was currently in the process of getting replies from Blizzard on the macro topic so I could post it to this thread.
I also searched the forums for the specific answers to each of those posts and in each of those threads I got new information on the subjects I was posting for.
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Well I found a bliz post that talks about the issue of hotkeys and basically he says they don't want to take action vs anyone for something so simple but they also ask people to wait for it to be added to sc2 before doing it.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/791409182?page=2
So imo switching hotkeys is currently frowned upon by blizzards but will most likely not get you banned unless you are doing it by edit files or stuff that would make them think something is up. However the reality is they could ban you for almost any reason they wanted to so you probably should not admit your using macros or anything else that doesn't come with starcraft 2 besides a monitor and keyboard.
Also to people who say it can't be detected imo I think you are wrong I believe blizzards has the right to scan your computer when you agree to the tos and that is to my knowledge how they detect most hacks with other bnet games. Obv you can avoid it or get around it but at that point imo your not a gamer anymore.
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It can be detected I think if you look for a super-consistent execution between certain moves. Even the most tip-top players can't execute a 5 millisecond switch between Templar and Sentries every time, hundreds of times.
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Also I wanted to say this... One of the reasons chess as a game has been so popular for so long is because it is a very fair game to play. If you asked me what makes chess fair I would say that it is the fact that the board never changed so both players will know exactly how to play and how the games going to play out in effect. If you think of starcraft2 as a chess like game then you will quickly understand how one player having a super fancy keyboard while the other player does not is not is like one player in chess having to play without being able to see one of his pawns or something. It creates an imbalance in the game board that could possibly favor one person. I personally want to be playing on the most basic keyboard and most basic monitor with no extra stuff helping me like a timer clock ect so I can improve my game play at a very basic level so that I do not have an advantage over my opponent via gear as it just seems more fair to me. However with that said starcraft2 is just a game and while some people make it become much more then just a game for the vast majority it is just for fun a way to cope with stress. So with that said I think it's a good thing if people are able to play the way they want to so I really don't care about people using extra stuff in games as it is just a game.
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On December 28 2010 11:40 Shikyo wrote:
Oh, that changes everything. It would do so much good for the game if you could just press 4 and all your Queens spawn larvae on every single of your hatcheries. Why not just play on slowest speed, or make the game turn-based instead?
No macro could do that man...that is not how it works. I would definitly like to see more info on this issue tho..it doesnt make sense for blizzard to put their name all over the keyboard and ban people for using functions that are built into it
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On December 29 2010 13:43 Ir0nClad wrote:Here is Blizzard's stance on it.The sixth header states: Show nested quote +Exploitation and Client/Server Manipulation Policy
This document details Blizzard Entertainment's stance on the use of third-party programs or utilities, bug exploitation, usage of user interface modifications, and client/server manipulation. The factor that links these various policies is that they are all considered "cheating" and our intent is to keep the playing field level for all players. The header is a link that points here, of which the first quote and the following paragraph are quite interesting to the "debate" in this thread: Show nested quote +Unapproved Third Party Software
A third party program is any file or program that is not a part of the StarCraft II software, but is used to gain an advantage in the game, such as increasing your resource gathering rate or map visibility. It also includes any programs that obtain information from the game that is not normally available to the regular player or that transmit or modify any of the game files. Any external applications that are used in conjunction with StarCraft II can cause quite a few unwanted side effects. Some of the major possible results of the use of third party programs can be instability of the game to the point that a player "crashes" from the game quite often. Unwanted anomalies have already been stated in this thread, such as the queens moving across the map.
I don't see how this applies to drivers for your hardware. They do not increase your "resource gathering rate" or "map visibility," they also don't obtain any information from the game that is not normally available, nor do they "transmit or modify any of the game files."
Like I said earlier, until someone can link a post by blizzard saying "you are not allowed to use mouse/keyboard macros in starcraft" you should all keep you "OMG IT'S CHEATING" nonsense to yourselves. This is a very simple issue to resolve and it has nothing to do with opinion.
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Hi!
Well you're right it is very vague. It's best to use common sense. If it feels like cheating then it may be. But the best thing to remember is that as long as you aren't changing the games programming or botting then you should be fine. No map hacks, automated programs, or other program/game altering should be used and other than that you welcome to use the macros all you want.
Sincerely,
Judah H.
Customer Services
Blizzard Entertainment
-----Original Message-----
From:
To: web.support@blizzard.com
Sent: 12/27/2010 6:04:32 PM
Subject: [en]StarCraft II -- Miscellaneous Game Information
Contact Information -----------------------
Name: Chessie
Email:
System Information ------------------------
IP:
Request ------------------------------------
Product: StarCraft II
Category: Miscellaneous Game Information
Description --------------------------------
I got a Spectre Mouse and Marauder Keyboard for Christmas this year. The included software allows for the creation of very complex macro's. I would like to know exactly what sort of macro I am disallowed from creating under the terms of service. As it stands right now they are rather vague (or at least, I couldn't find a section pertaining to this particular issue.)
What is the current Blizzard policy on complex macros? (setting Zerg Hatcheries to inject with just a couple button presses or setting EMP to cast from one button on my mouse. That sort of thing.) None of these seem terribly game breaking but I figure I ought to ask before I proceed.
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Like I said earlier, until someone can link a post by blizzard saying "you are not allowed to use mouse/keyboard macros in starcraft" you should all keep you "OMG IT'S CHEATING" nonsense to yourselves. This is a very simple issue to resolve and it has nothing to do with opinion.
Hallo XXXX, vielen Dank für Ihre Email bezüglich StarCraft II. Jegliche Automatisierung der Spielabläufe verstößt gegen die Nutzungsbestimmungen des Battle.net und dürfen nicht benutzt werden. So lange Sie nur etwas spezielles im Chat schreiben möchten, wie "gg hf" ist es nicht verboten. Wir hoffen Ihnen hiermit weitergeholfen zu haben und wünschen Ihnen noch viel Spaß in StarCraft II. Sollten Sie weitere Fragen oder Anliegen haben, zögern Sie bitte nicht uns erneut zu kontaktieren. Mit freundlichen Grüßen Blizzard Entertainment Europe Stefan K. http://eu.blizzard.com/support
Basically the Support said, any automating of the Gameaction is forbidden.
This email i got back in August, cause i wasn't sure if macros are ok on my gaming mouse, so I asked if its ok, to bin "a,click" to a button and a macro to say gl&hf. To write something in chat with a macro is ok.
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you should all keep you "OMG IT'S CHEATING" nonsense to yourselves.
I can't believe you seriously just typed that, really in all honesty look at that sentence from a completely unbiased view and just think of how retarded it is.
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That's...um...That's in German. I don't suppose you have that e-mail in English?
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i translated the core meaning: its forbidden
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On December 30 2010 04:58 chessiecat wrote:
That's...um...That's in German. I don't suppose you have that e-mail in English?
A quick toss into google translate returns
Hi XXXX,
Thank you for your email regarding StarCraft II
Any automation of the game procedures violate the terms of Battle.net and may not be used.
As long as you only want to write something special in the chat, like "gg hf" is not prohibited.
We hope to have helped with this and wish you much fun in Starcraft II
If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
Yours sincerely,
Which is exactly what Pharaun explained it to be.
You also have ignored the posts explaining botting. I'll re-iterate it for you, botting is the use of a program to automate game actions for you. Therefore using a macro (which is done using a program in most cases) to automate the actions of larvae inject on all your hatcheries is botting. Remapping your hotkeys is a macro and is fine. We've given you countless examples on how botting is not allowed and even blizzard says it, so I don't understand how you don't see it anymore.
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So we have one message from Blizzard saying 'don't do it' and one saying ' sure, go ahead'
That's pretty messed up right there...and entirely consistent with Blizzard's recent customer service.
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maybe its only forbidden for germans 
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I think we're facing a classic issue that Blizzard has had before. The customer service people have absolutely no idea what the official stance is and one err's on the side of caution and the other on the side of open play.
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On December 30 2010 05:12 chessiecat wrote:
So we have one message from Blizzard saying 'don't do it' and one saying ' sure, go ahead'
That's pretty messed up right there...and entirely consistent with Blizzard's recent customer service.
Which one said go ahead? Yours states you may use macros, ie. remapping hotkeys. As I explained if you are automating the game (casting larvae inject on all your hatcheries with few buttons) you are botting. Even in your email they stated this is wrong. Try looking up botting, you'll see its exactly how I described.
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I don't know what they're defining as botting here. I honestly don't. I've sent another e-mail for clarification and will post that as soon as I get a response. Since the e-mail I sent was more complete in it's contents, hopefully we'll get a better reply. Considering how completely screwed up this situation is, I expect a blue to show up on the main forums to give us an answer with a fair degree of 'soon as Hell'.
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On December 30 2010 05:16 chessiecat wrote:
I think we're facing a classic issue that Blizzard has had before. The customer service people have absolutely no idea what the official stance is and one err's on the side of caution and the other on the side of open play.
The only issue we are facing is that you and many others are cheaters but instead of just admitting it and continuing cheating you try and act as if it's not. I hope when hackers get caught hacking they don't say it's alright.
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It is 100% forbidden to do more than one action with one button. So you can bind whatever you want to whatever key (the mousewheel thing is clever!)(my mouse has a function that says autofire, so u hold down left button and it spams left click at an rate you can choose, this also will be forbidden).
The thing is, why the hell did blizzard get those friggin hardware on the marcet with a functuin in the ad that is forbidden?
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Jeez, Numy, is that really helpful? If Blizzard says we're not cheating then your judgement doesn't mean a damn thing. You can call the cheesers cheating bastards but hey, there you go. It's part of the game and if Blizzard is letting people use macro's then...it's part of the game. Suck it up buttercup.
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On December 30 2010 05:23 chessiecat wrote:
and if Blizzard is letting people use macro's then...it's part of the game. Suck it up buttercup.
Thats the point: they don't!
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On December 30 2010 05:20 chessiecat wrote:
I don't know what they're defining as botting here. I honestly don't. I've sent another e-mail for clarification and will post that as soon as I get a response. Since the e-mail I sent was more complete in it's contents, hopefully we'll get a better reply. Considering how completely screwed up this situation is, I expect a blue to show up on the main forums to give us an answer with a fair degree of 'soon as Hell'.
There is only one definition of botting here. Performing automated game actions. The only difference between making one mouse click and having a program play the entire game for you and clicking one key to perform 2+ actions is the number of actions performed. If it is any more than 1:1 then you are botting.
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Is that your opinion or is that Blizzard's official stance? If it is Blizzard's official stance then I want you to point me directly to the link on their website where it says that explicitly.
So far I've gotten two dead thread links on forums other than Blizzard's, a customer service reply from Blizzard saying it's fine and another which doesn't include the original questions posed to the representative.
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On December 30 2010 05:29 chessiecat wrote:
Is that your opinion or is that Blizzard's official stance? If it is Blizzard's official stance then I want you to point me directly to the link on their website where it says that explicitly.
You keep saying that. They said it in your own post.
But the best thing to remember is that as long as you aren't changing the games programming or botting then you should be fine.
If you look up botting, its performing automated game actions. There is no other definition. At this point I see you will not change your mind until it comes directly from blizzard, so I will await the reply you post.
Edited for typos.
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Clearly this is just him being completely ignorant and wanting to justify cheating as he still won't be satisfied with blizzard's responses that ALL do say the SAME thing. And that is that it's NOT allowed.
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The game is a real time STRATEGY game. Anything that gets in the way of strategy makes the game less about strategy and thus less fun.
Frankly, I don't buy not allowing macros. Technology has made macros/remapping keys readily available. Everyone has access to this, there is no unfair advantage gained if everyone has access to the same stuff. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to remap keys or build simple macros.
What is a simple macro? To me, it means anything that doesn't factor in time. So if I press one button it can type glhf gg .... however it can't do some action, wait a bit, do another action -- this would be similar to botting.
Botting != Remapping Keys OR simple macros
The following is a quick sample of a macro, using Autohotkey, one may want to use.
Health Bar Toggler
+ Show Spoiler +
#SingleInstance force
#MaxThreadsPerHotkey 1
showing_health_bars := false
LWin up::
if not showing_health_bars
{
Send, {\ down}
Send, {[ down}
Send, {] down}
showing_health_bars := true
}
else
{
Send, {\ up}
Send, {[ up}
Send, {] up}
showing_health_bars := false
}
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you capitalized strategy but didn't capitalize REAL TIME....
if you don't like the idea that the game requires you to focus on both micro and macro actions, then play something turn-based.
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On December 29 2010 14:30 roadrunner343 wrote:
For about the fourth time this thread: Licensing a freaking name doesn't make it a "Blizzard" product.
The Razer Marauder is no more a Blizzard product than the Razer Lycosa... or the Logitech G15 for that matter. All three of them are third party products. Licensing a name doesn't mean it's a Blizzard product.
I suppose Blizzard makes "official" mouse pads too, not steel series... right? Somebody shoot me now, the stupidity is overwhelming. I'd expect to have to explain it once, but I've done it what... 3, 4 times now? And I've seen other people explain the same thing. And for everyone of our replies, there's another 3-4 idiots saying the same, incorrect horse crap about the Marauder being an "Official Blizzard Product."
I fell in love with the TL forums because this kind of stupidity didn't exist... could you return the the battlenet forums please?
EDIT: ROFL... advertising something on your website makes it YOUR product? Google owns about 90% of the internet... hell, I saw this gear advertised on amazon... it must be an OFFICIAL (Caps for you Chessicat) Amazon product then.
Well, for the Xth time, yes it does. Once upon a time Google ads had a bunch of Buy WoW Gold on the Official WoW forums. Of course it was quickly taken and down and it was changed to something else. However, any users that were banned for buying gold shortly after that, could simply say they clicked the link on the WoW forum. Guess what happened? Blizzard unbanned them.
Any person with a brain could argue that they were endorsing it, despite what it says in the ToS. (This same person could argue that 1% of all users even read the ToS, and therefore the person assumed buying gold would be ok).
The same applies with the Spectre/Marauder. Blizzard cannot and will not ban you for this. They will more than likely make a public statement claiming they will, but it will only be a threat. They fucked up by endorsing the razer products and supporting them on their own page.
Besides, you won't get caught if the products work like the Black WIdow anyways.
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On December 30 2010 05:44 troynt wrote:The game is a real time STRATEGY game. Anything that gets in the way of strategy makes the game less about strategy and thus less fun. Frankly, I don't buy not allowing macros. Technology has made macros/remapping keys readily available. Everyone has access to this, there is no unfair advantage gained if everyone has access to the same stuff. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to remap keys or build simple macros. What is a simple macro? To me, it means anything that doesn't factor in time. So if I press one button it can type glhf gg .... however it can't do some action, wait a bit, do another action -- this would be similar to botting. Botting != Remapping Keys OR simple macros The following is a quick sample of a macro, using Autohotkey, one may want to use. Health Bar Toggler + Show Spoiler +
#SingleInstance force
#MaxThreadsPerHotkey 1
showing_health_bars := false
LWin up::
if not showing_health_bars
{
Send, {\ down}
Send, {[ down}
Send, {] down}
showing_health_bars := true
}
else
{
Send, {\ up}
Send, {[ up}
Send, {] up}
showing_health_bars := false
}
You are correct, botting is not remapping hotkeys or macros like your example. I think the confusion spawns in the fact that bots ARE macros, but macros are not necessarily bots. The macro you described does not automate game actions for you. Automating larvae inject on the other hand does, therefore is a bot.
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I gotta say, until you've actually tried it it's tough to say how much these macro's actually affect the game itself.
I've been screwing with them and frankly...the answer is not much. Sad, but there it is. They simplify a few button presses but you're still required to make EVERY basic decision from 'Do I drone now or do I make units now?' to 'Should I wall this part of my base? Am I likely to be attacked from this direction or that direction? yourself. You can't automate the game using them.
The auto-inject macro DOES NOT WORK. It simulates the actions without actually performing them reliably and the heart of a macro is that it improves the game. Once you're on three bases, you'll spend half your time off chasing Queens who've caught a case of the derp from your macro set-up and gone for a wander.
They're not going to make a Gold level player platinum or even a Bronze level player Silver. They will give you a tiny in basic command execution but the more complex the macro the more frequently they fail. Anything over 1 second long is going to fail about half the time. Anything longer than that is going to fail constantly. The chaotic nature of the game makes your input as a player (your knowledge of the game and plan) far more essential than your speed and all the macro's do is simplify some things and put them closer at hand.
In many circumstances the macro's will make things worse. Brushing a macro with the wrong units selected can have disastrous consequences. You can lose an entire game to one over-complicated macro going off. You have to be VERY selective with them and they must be simple to get any help from them.
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On December 30 2010 05:58 chessiecat wrote:
I gotta say, until you've actually tried it it's tough to say how much these macro's actually effect the game itself.
I've been screwing with them and frankly...the answer is not much. Sad, but there it is. They simplify a few button presses but you're still required to make EVERY basic decision from 'Do I drone now or do I make units now?' to 'Should I wall this part of my base? Am I likely to be attacked from this direction or that direction? yourself. You can't automate the game using them.
They're not going to make a Gold level player platinum or even a Bronze level player Silver. They will give you a tiny in basic command execution but the more complex the macro the more frequently they fail. Anything over 1 second long is going to fail about half the time. Anything longer than that is going to fail constantly. The chaotic nature of the game makes your input far more essential than your speed and all the macro's do is simplify some things and put them closer at hand.
But the problem is when top players get ahold of this. It would make a world of difference if a Zerg player could quickly inject 4-5 bases, allowing them to focus on other things.
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@Bitters Please provide a sample of a macro, that doesn't make use of time delays, that would take focus away from either. I think you are confusing micro and macro actions with bad user experience.
A) Pressing f1 to builds a drone. <= Macro action
B) Pressing 5, s, d builds a drone. <= Macro Action ( bad user experience, too many clicks )
They are both macro actions, they both require the same mental abilities.
B takes 2 more keypresses. Will those 2 keypresses change the outcome of the game?
Answer: It should not. If it does, we should to re-evaluate the game, as it shouldn't be about spamming drones.
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Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not arguing that you will get banned. I agree with holynorth in the fact that they will likely say "you aren't supposed to" and not ban anyone. I'm also not saying that botting will give you a great advantage, or any advantage at all. All I'm trying to point out is that blizzard can ban you for it if they choose to, and that you can't complain if they do.
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so you're bad at the game and have to use macros? lolololol
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I hope the Warden catches you and beat you up.
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On December 30 2010 05:52 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 14:30 roadrunner343 wrote:
For about the fourth time this thread: Licensing a freaking name doesn't make it a "Blizzard" product.
The Razer Marauder is no more a Blizzard product than the Razer Lycosa... or the Logitech G15 for that matter. All three of them are third party products. Licensing a name doesn't mean it's a Blizzard product.
I suppose Blizzard makes "official" mouse pads too, not steel series... right? Somebody shoot me now, the stupidity is overwhelming. I'd expect to have to explain it once, but I've done it what... 3, 4 times now? And I've seen other people explain the same thing. And for everyone of our replies, there's another 3-4 idiots saying the same, incorrect horse crap about the Marauder being an "Official Blizzard Product."
I fell in love with the TL forums because this kind of stupidity didn't exist... could you return the the battlenet forums please?
EDIT: ROFL... advertising something on your website makes it YOUR product? Google owns about 90% of the internet... hell, I saw this gear advertised on amazon... it must be an OFFICIAL (Caps for you Chessicat) Amazon product then. Well, for the Xth time, yes it does. Once upon a time Google ads had a bunch of Buy WoW Gold on the Official WoW forums. Of course it was quickly taken and down and it was changed to something else. However, any users that were banned for buying gold shortly after that, could simply say they clicked the link on the WoW forum. Guess what happened? Blizzard unbanned them. Any person with a brain could argue that they were endorsing it, despite what it says in the ToS. (This same person could argue that 1% of all users even read the ToS, and therefore the person assumed buying gold would be ok). The same applies with the Spectre/Marauder. Blizzard cannot and will not ban you for this. They will more than likely make a public statement claiming they will, but it will only be a threat. They fucked up by endorsing the razer products and supporting them on their own page. Besides, you won't get caught if the products work like the Black WIdow anyways.
This is such a horrendously stupid post (Poster?) it's hilarious. Nothing in your post was remotely related to mine. You went on a tangent about nothing, and are still too stupid to realize: It's a Razer product, not a blizzard one. They licensed the name and artwork. That's it.
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i type in "fuck you" and all my scv/marines rush into my opponents base.
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One single post from Blizzard that says you can't bind two actions to one hotkey. I'll eat my hat. I have a hat I can eat and it's a nice one. I beg you! Just post something to make all of this end and I will kiss your toes and chew on this lovely leather head-piece.
ANYwhere in the Terms of Service or any Blizzard post by any Blizzard employee where this is laid out in explicit terms.
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On December 30 2010 06:02 troynt wrote:
@Bitters Please provide a sample of a macro, that doesn't make use of time delays, that would take focus away from either. I think you are confusing micro and macro actions with bad user experience.
A) Pressing f1 to builds a drone. <= Macro action
B) Pressing 5, s, d builds a drone. <= Macro Action ( bad user experience, too many clicks )
They are both macro actions, they both require the same mental abilities.
B takes 2 more keypresses. Will those 2 keypresses change the outcome of the game?
Answer: It should not. If it does, we should to re-evaluate the game, as it shouldn't be about spamming drones.
yeah if you have all the time in the world in doesn't matter for the outcome
but when you're in an intense game and every ms counts, and you have to be at multiple places at the same time, it obviously does matter if you just press some preprogrammed buttons. it's a clear advantage, it's cheating.
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On December 30 2010 09:04 chessiecat wrote:
One single post from Blizzard that says you can't bind two actions to one hotkey. I'll eat my hat. I have a hat I can eat and it's a nice one. I beg you! Just post something to make all of this end and I will kiss your toes and chew on this lovely leather head-piece.
ANYwhere in the Terms of Service or any Blizzard post by any Blizzard employee where this is laid out in explicit terms.
Alright chessie, I've been nice and respectful in explaining how and why it's considered botting. You are botting if you are doing that. You have proof of blizzard saying you can't bot. Now I've looked up your multiple posts on the b.net forums, and here and all I can decided is either you're trolling or are way too naive and close minded to accept anything other than blizzard directly saying "you cannot use your macros to automate actions on your razer keyboard." Nothing any of us say will change your mind, so why even talk to us about it? Take it up with blizzard instead of wasting all our time.
I'm all for thoughtful discussion and you're welcome to your opinion, but when your only argument is "prove it" when we have countless times and you've done nothing to refute our claims then you are wasting all of our time. How bout instead of us proving over and over again how Blizz doesn't allow it (and we have) you tell us how we are wrong. Find me any definition of botting that convinces you that you are not botting by automating your actions with an external program. Binding more than one action to a hotkey is botting, period. You may not get banned for it, but it doesnt mean that they cant or wont in the future nor does it mean that you are not breaking their ToS.
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On December 30 2010 07:26 roadrunner343 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 05:52 holynorth wrote:On December 29 2010 14:30 roadrunner343 wrote:
For about the fourth time this thread: Licensing a freaking name doesn't make it a "Blizzard" product.
The Razer Marauder is no more a Blizzard product than the Razer Lycosa... or the Logitech G15 for that matter. All three of them are third party products. Licensing a name doesn't mean it's a Blizzard product.
I suppose Blizzard makes "official" mouse pads too, not steel series... right? Somebody shoot me now, the stupidity is overwhelming. I'd expect to have to explain it once, but I've done it what... 3, 4 times now? And I've seen other people explain the same thing. And for everyone of our replies, there's another 3-4 idiots saying the same, incorrect horse crap about the Marauder being an "Official Blizzard Product."
I fell in love with the TL forums because this kind of stupidity didn't exist... could you return the the battlenet forums please?
EDIT: ROFL... advertising something on your website makes it YOUR product? Google owns about 90% of the internet... hell, I saw this gear advertised on amazon... it must be an OFFICIAL (Caps for you Chessicat) Amazon product then. Well, for the Xth time, yes it does. Once upon a time Google ads had a bunch of Buy WoW Gold on the Official WoW forums. Of course it was quickly taken and down and it was changed to something else. However, any users that were banned for buying gold shortly after that, could simply say they clicked the link on the WoW forum. Guess what happened? Blizzard unbanned them. Any person with a brain could argue that they were endorsing it, despite what it says in the ToS. (This same person could argue that 1% of all users even read the ToS, and therefore the person assumed buying gold would be ok). The same applies with the Spectre/Marauder. Blizzard cannot and will not ban you for this. They will more than likely make a public statement claiming they will, but it will only be a threat. They fucked up by endorsing the razer products and supporting them on their own page. Besides, you won't get caught if the products work like the Black WIdow anyways. This is such a horrendously stupid post (Poster?) it's hilarious. Nothing in your post was remotely related to mine. You went on a tangent about nothing, and are still too stupid to realize: It's a Razer product, not a blizzard one. They licensed the name and artwork. That's it.
Did you read my post? Can you read my post? The definition of "endorse:" back: be behind; approve of. Blizzard does endorse these products. Because Blizzard endorsed these products they cannot and will not ban you for them. This has been seen in the past with Blizzard.
But you would rather spend your time flaming users than contribute anything useful.
And also, as mentioned in the original post and several times throughout the thread, but we have determined you do not like to read other posts, Blizzard worked with Razer to create the software needed. Sounds a lot like endorsement to me. And the only thing that matters in the court of law is endorsement.
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I'm curous about your Terran macros, OP, would you mind elaborating on them?
Also, just stop responding to people saying its illegal. This thread is not the place for this. Lets keep this thread on track, and talk about the macros we use for SC! If you don't want to use them then don't. If you want to argue about them being illegal, make another thread or something. I for one would like to find some helpful macros.
I've also found a way to make sniping easier. I've bound r+click onto forward and back on the mouse wheel. So by placing the cursor over enemy units and scrolling forward and back it auto-snipes. It's not much better then just r-clicking, but it's something. I often end up selecting the enemy units, however, even when many ghosts still have energy. If anyone has an idea to make it better, please post.
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On December 30 2010 09:37 AScenT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 09:04 chessiecat wrote:
One single post from Blizzard that says you can't bind two actions to one hotkey. I'll eat my hat. I have a hat I can eat and it's a nice one. I beg you! Just post something to make all of this end and I will kiss your toes and chew on this lovely leather head-piece.
ANYwhere in the Terms of Service or any Blizzard post by any Blizzard employee where this is laid out in explicit terms. Alright chessie, I've been nice and respectful in explaining how and why it's considered botting. You are botting if you are doing that. You have proof of blizzard saying you can't bot. Now I've looked up your multiple posts on the b.net forums, and here and all I can decided is either you're trolling or are way too naive and close minded to accept anything other than blizzard directly saying "you cannot use your macros to automate actions on your razer keyboard." Nothing any of us say will change your mind, so why even talk to us about it? Take it up with blizzard instead of wasting all our time. I'm all for thoughtful discussion and you're welcome to your opinion, but when your only argument is "prove it" when we have countless times and you've done nothing to refute our claims then you are wasting all of our time. How bout instead of us proving over and over again how Blizz doesn't allow it (and we have) you tell us how we are wrong. Find me any definition of botting that convinces you that you are not botting by automating your actions with an external program. Binding more than one action to a hotkey is botting, period. You may not get banned for it, but it doesnt mean that they cant or wont in the future nor does it mean that you are not breaking their ToS.
You're being incredibly dense here. All chessie asked for was a source for this oft-stated supposed fact that anything other than a 1:1 keypress to action ratio is considered botting. Either provide proof (statement by blizzard) saying so or leave the thread please.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 30 2010 15:20 thesmoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 09:37 AScenT wrote:On December 30 2010 09:04 chessiecat wrote:
One single post from Blizzard that says you can't bind two actions to one hotkey. I'll eat my hat. I have a hat I can eat and it's a nice one. I beg you! Just post something to make all of this end and I will kiss your toes and chew on this lovely leather head-piece.
ANYwhere in the Terms of Service or any Blizzard post by any Blizzard employee where this is laid out in explicit terms. Alright chessie, I've been nice and respectful in explaining how and why it's considered botting. You are botting if you are doing that. You have proof of blizzard saying you can't bot. Now I've looked up your multiple posts on the b.net forums, and here and all I can decided is either you're trolling or are way too naive and close minded to accept anything other than blizzard directly saying "you cannot use your macros to automate actions on your razer keyboard." Nothing any of us say will change your mind, so why even talk to us about it? Take it up with blizzard instead of wasting all our time. I'm all for thoughtful discussion and you're welcome to your opinion, but when your only argument is "prove it" when we have countless times and you've done nothing to refute our claims then you are wasting all of our time. How bout instead of us proving over and over again how Blizz doesn't allow it (and we have) you tell us how we are wrong. Find me any definition of botting that convinces you that you are not botting by automating your actions with an external program. Binding more than one action to a hotkey is botting, period. You may not get banned for it, but it doesnt mean that they cant or wont in the future nor does it mean that you are not breaking their ToS. You're being incredibly dense here. All chessie asked for was a source for this oft-stated supposed fact that anything other than a 1:1 keypress to action ratio is considered botting. Either provide proof (statement by blizzard) saying so or leave the thread please.
Just don't respond, this thread is still salvageable.
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To be fair there was a TLer a while back that was banned by blizz for having a macro keyboard but not using macros and blizzard flat out told him that because it was a macro keyboard that wasn't a blizzard licensed producted it was not allowed. at the time alot of us TLers got mad and said blizz was being dumb for that specific wording and allusion.
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All I want is to change my hotkeys on any keyboard through SC2 so I don`t need crazy stretch fingers
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i have a blackwidow, and i have F5-F7 bound to my macro keys. it can't be detected since it just sends the same signal to the computer as the actual keys, and i'm only using those until the customizable hotkeys come around so i can rebind those to F2-F4
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On December 30 2010 15:20 thesmoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 09:37 AScenT wrote:On December 30 2010 09:04 chessiecat wrote:
One single post from Blizzard that says you can't bind two actions to one hotkey. I'll eat my hat. I have a hat I can eat and it's a nice one. I beg you! Just post something to make all of this end and I will kiss your toes and chew on this lovely leather head-piece.
ANYwhere in the Terms of Service or any Blizzard post by any Blizzard employee where this is laid out in explicit terms. Alright chessie, I've been nice and respectful in explaining how and why it's considered botting. You are botting if you are doing that. You have proof of blizzard saying you can't bot. Now I've looked up your multiple posts on the b.net forums, and here and all I can decided is either you're trolling or are way too naive and close minded to accept anything other than blizzard directly saying "you cannot use your macros to automate actions on your razer keyboard." Nothing any of us say will change your mind, so why even talk to us about it? Take it up with blizzard instead of wasting all our time. I'm all for thoughtful discussion and you're welcome to your opinion, but when your only argument is "prove it" when we have countless times and you've done nothing to refute our claims then you are wasting all of our time. How bout instead of us proving over and over again how Blizz doesn't allow it (and we have) you tell us how we are wrong. Find me any definition of botting that convinces you that you are not botting by automating your actions with an external program. Binding more than one action to a hotkey is botting, period. You may not get banned for it, but it doesnt mean that they cant or wont in the future nor does it mean that you are not breaking their ToS. You're being incredibly dense here. All chessie asked for was a source for this oft-stated supposed fact that anything other than a 1:1 keypress to action ratio is considered botting. Either provide proof (statement by blizzard) saying so or leave the thread please.
I think you haven't read the whole thread. I've stated numerous times on how doing it is botting. All he can say is "please give me a post by blizzard" which he knows doesn't exist (or does if you include BOTH emails from blizzard in this thread, one posted by himself). Botting isn't a term invented by Blizzard, they just use it. It's an accepted and established term in the game industry. If Blizzard uses the term botting, its the same as EA or Ubi or any other Dev/publisher. Therefore if they say he cannot bot, and I tell him how what he is doing is botting, he should not be able to do it. And if you read everything you'd see I and many others explained how he is botting and he still wont accept it, which is why I declared that he shouldn't carry on a discussion if he can't refute any arguments and just demands more "proof".
Perhaps instead of jumping into other people's discussion and calling one of the people "dense" you should take some time to understand and read the discussion. And if you have then I'm sorry we disagree about chessie's attitude, but like I stated, he's posted numerous times in both the b.net forums and here and has by himself continued this argument, and I merely stated if all that will convince him is an exact statement from blizzard then he should get that instead of arguing with others about it when he knows nothing will convince him.
And to reiterate, the German email did specifically state that "Any automation of the game procedures" is not allowed. Anything more than 1:1 on a macro is "automation of the game procedures" a.k.a botting.
Edited for typos.
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Hmm... I'm curious about something. Would a self written program that changes, say, your middle mouse button to backspace be considered a macro? By definition, a macro has to perform an action, and be multiple steps. But then, the rule doesn't only just apply to macros, but botting and "unattended play" (more in reference to WoW; speaking of which, very related to this thread, check this post: http://www.infernix.net/wowban/). Any thoughts on this?
As far as my opinion of this thread so far... it's kind of unfair for Blizzard to advertise products like this (http://www2.razerzone.com/sc2/marauder.php) INSIDE of Starcraft 2, with paragraphs like "On-The-Fly Macro Recording allows for Effortless Configuration
Record unlimited macros on-the-fly without having to take your eye off the game and immediately change between up to 10 profiles without the hassle of going into complex driver menus" on their webpage then turn around and ban people, calling it botting. I'm pretty sure that's all the OPer is trying to illustrate. It's also understandable for him to be so frustrated and unbelieving of anyone here, seeing as he laid down 200$ for the thing.
I'd post my own set up, but I'm pretty sure I'd just be included in the flame war then, and I'm not wearing my fire retardant underwear.
But for the record, Autohotkey has been around in Blizzard games for many years, and Blizzard has never once banned a person for using it. When I almost lost one of my arms, I remapped my entire keyboard to be left-hand friendly -- I could do everything with one hand, almost as well as I did with 2 -- using Autohotkey. Autohotkey allows one to write incredibly comprehensive macros well within the realms of cheating, if one wanted. No one ever has, because people aren't looking to make a bot to play the game for them. They just want want to reach to the other side of the keyboard to hit a button that could easily be located somewhere more convenient.
I think it's a good thing Blizzard is considering this point of view. It doesn't enhance the game even a little bit making keys unaccessible. Blizzard acknowledges this by eventually releasing a CustomKeys.txt file for each of their games that people can modify. It doesn't give control over certain core concepts, but each game gets more and more flexible. When the community will accept this view, is a whole different story, however.
These things are tools; hammers if you will. You can build a house or you can kill your neighbor, it's your choice. Using them.. not bad. Abusing them... very bad. The OPer admits this when saying "potential for bullshit" is high. The infested Terran spam, etc. BTW Chessie, you can do the exact same thing if you use shift + click. I'm sure there are differences, but it's pretty nasty, too.
Chessie, if you want to discuss this in private, hit me up. Like I said, I'm avoiding the public flame war.
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On December 28 2010 11:21 Shikyo wrote:That's like using maphack on Broodwar and talking openly about it. People were getting permabanned for it on teamliquid even if they didn't attend tournaments. It's cheating and nothing else. Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 11:17 locopuyo wrote:
After a couple games of using my macros it boosted my APM by about 15. I was averaging around 50 and went up to around 65. Obviously, since you only press one key and it counts as multiple ones. Hey, let's bind 44324143243241242142343443321423413412434123423432142342343241242 onto one key and spam that to have over 4000 apm, that makes us more skilled.
I lol'd.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Ahhh this reminds me of back in beta when i didn't know you weren't allowed to use macros so i happily set up (5+v+shift+backspace+left click) sequence to spawn larvae all my hatch in milliseconds. Good times.
But yeah, you can't use macro other than 1:1 remapping.
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I would agree with Telcontar that that is probably the intention behind the Marauder keyboard.
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Using macros as far as I'm concerned is cheating. If the game has such a bad interface that you can't stand playing without using macros then just go play another RTS. Using macros to do more things with less effort is just blatant cheating imo. It doesn't matter how small an advantage it is because it is still an advantage in a game where every little thing can add up over time.
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Well one email says its okay and another says it isn't. So I'm going with the one that says it is, considering Blizzard themselves are backing a product which directly advertises macros. I think it's unfair to say so otherwise, considering anyone can pull the argument that they endorse it because their name is on it. They didn't just approve the artwork, these keyboards have been built specifically for Sc2. To say so otherwise requires some burden of proof (considering its an official Blizzard product), along with the claim that it's cheating to use these Blizzard products which they directly promote.
Ignoring the argument, how do they even work? I've never seen someone use Macros, do you have to manually set up everything? What are common uses of these Macros if you use them? I personally can't wait for Blizzard to release new hot key set ups. I feel the current hotkeys are too spread apart for my causal gaming.
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So... where does it end?
Is a macro to select all your SCVs, split them into groups of 2 like a pro, and start mining acceptable? Don't say it's not possible, i've seen it done on the G15 forums. Trust me, Macros, if you put in the time and effort, can be EXTREMELY complex.
So if we've determined that was ok, is it okay to include into that same macro to pull an SCV @ 10 Supply + 100 minerals to build a supply depot? After all, it's just more clicks. Strategy is what matter, so if you already knew to build a supply depot, it should be okay to automate that action.
Since the above two actions are simply mindless clicking, it should also be okay to add that an scv should throw down a barracks @ 12 supply + 150 minerals. Everyone does that, no need for more needless clicking.
@ 15 supply + 150 minerals, I always get my orbital, might as well throw that into my script. It doesn't require any thought or strategy to do this after all, lets make it automatic... and before you know if, you have people writing scripts to play basically every aspect of the game for them.
Foxer style marine splitting? No problem, press a hotkey and have them scatter all over the place. After all, knowing what you should do is far more important than all of those excessive clicks. You know to split your marines, never mind the fact that it is humanly impossible for you to do so, so why not just have a script do it for you?
This is my last post here. I'm not one for flaming, unless you really are completely retarded, and unfortunately there's a few of you like that here. I don't care if you agree with me, but goodness some of you have terrible reasoning. Like someone else before me said, this thread is nothing more than a mindless waste of time at this point. I'll save my breath for topics that are actually worthy of being posted on TL from here on out.
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Hi!
Honestly, it is a GIANT grey area. If it gets to the point your barely playing the game, you probably gone too far. Use your judgement. If it goes too far you'll know.
Sincerely,
Judah H.
Customer Services
Blizzard Entertainment
<https:blizzard.com/support>
-----Original Message-----
From:
To:
Sent: 12/29/2010 11:55:51 AM
Subject: RE: [en]StarCraft II -- Miscellaneous Game Information
Can I set a macro which will condense the button presses required to cast High Templar Psi Storm into a single button press and then bind that to the Spectre mouse, so when I have my High Templar selected it only requires me to position the mouse over the location I want stormed and click the button? This would apply to Fungal Growth and EMP.
I've gotten a ton of flack from a lot of people on this issue and it's been so controversial that I need something to show people from Blizzard. This could fundamentally change the current views on the use of macro's throughout the community which are currently viewed as a total anathema. There have been wild claims made about Blizzard policy from total banhammering for the use of macro's of ANY kind to claims that macro's can only be used to re-map keys on the keyboard.
This software and it's attendant peripherals are supported and licensed by Blizzard and the software includes the ability to simplify game-play in big ways. I have a particular macro which, when I have a group of High Templar and Sentries selected, will quickly switch to the Sentries and cast Guardian Shield then switch back to the High Templar. This makes it VERY convenient to quickly cast Guardian shield without several extra key presses (tab, g, shift+tab). I haven't made use of any of this on the ladder. I'm waiting for a response from Blizzard.
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Well I think that pretty much clears it. I'm sure there are built-in limiters -- like the technicality of marine splitting; a program isn't going to be able to detect whether an area is safe or not without direct functionality to SC's engine itself -- that will keep gameplay fair. As it is, anyone can use Autohotkey to do any kind of 1:1 reprogramming.
Because, while we're on the topic of macroing and keyboards, one must ask: Some older AZERTY keyboards have backspace positioned on the left hand side of the keyboard. That would inherently give Zerg players an advantage (backspace is critical to good inject timings). So by some people's argument, "It doesn't matter how small an advantage it is because it is still an advantage in a game where every little thing can add up over time" and that is cheating.
Welcome to the world of computers. There is no standardization and we're all going to live with it just fine. That's the beauty of customization -- the playing field is leveled. Now, we leave it in the hands of the administrators -- and, ultimately, ourselves -- to decide what's going too far.
I also feel a lot more comfortable posting my own macros now. I use Autohotkey, as I stated. I keep all my hatcheries bound to 8, and all of my Queens to 7. ` is reprogrammed to send a "7 command", and F1 to send an "8 command". F2 selects all idle workers. A little reference as far as the macro goes, ^ = ctrl+, + = shift+, ! = alt+.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;; Origin code by Malcolm Heath, aka ;;
;; Pie.Cr3w and Shaft. Maintained by ;;
;; ChildLikEmperor. Please edit to ;;
;; your preference while maintaining ;;
;; the integrity of these credits. ;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
#SingleInstance force ;force a single instance
#HotkeyInterval 0 ;disable the warning dialog if a key is held down
#InstallKeybdHook ;Forces the unconditional installation of the keyboard hook
#UseHook On ;might increase responsiveness of hotkeys
#MaxThreads 20 ;use 20 (the max) instead of 10 threads
SetBatchLines, -1 ;makes the script run at max speed
SetKeyDelay , -1, 0 ;faster response (might be better with -1, 0)
SetDefaultMouseSpeed, 0 ;move the mouse faster for mouse moving commands
SetMouseDelay, -1
#NoEnv
SendMode Play
;; Make the icon the TFT icon
regread, war, HKEY_CURRENT_USER, Software\Blizzard Entertainment\Warcraft III, ProgramX
menu, tray, Icon, %War%, 1, 1
;; Variables
InChatRoomOn := False
HealthBarOn := True
FollowOn := False
AttackOn := True
NumMod := True
#ifWinActive, StarCraft II
*`::
Suspend, Permit
send 8
return
+`::
Suspend, Permit
send +8
return
^`::
Suspend, Permit
send ^8
return
*MButton::
Suspend, Permit
send {BS}
return
*F1::
Suspend, Permit
Send 7
return
+F1::
Suspend, Permit
Send +7
return
^F1::
Suspend, Permit
Send ^7
return
*F2::
Suspend, Permit
Send ^{F1}
return
*F3::
Suspend, Permit
Send {F1}
return
return
In function, this allows my Mouse button to work as backspace while I can easily access keys half way across my keyboard with my pinkie. It's pretty nifty, and I know I don't cross any lines. F3 will select a single idle worker, F2 does that as well if there's only 1
Also, if anyone wants to emulate the Infestor functionality of the Marauder keyboard, you can use a simple script (Z applies for Grid mode; change it to whatever hotkey use):
#ifWinActive, StarCraft II
*WheelUp::send::
+z
LButton Down
LButton Up
return
return
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To answer the OP, here is how I use my macros. I have not yet utilized them for spellcasting, but I just use them to help me build units.
I have a Belkin n52 that I sit next to my keyboard. I use the keyboard to actually play, and leave the Belkin just for the macros.
When I want to macro up units, I slide my hand over to the Belkin. There are alot of buttons there, so I have them configured to build various quantities of units quickly, and I use different buttons for whether it is early game or mid/late. The nice thing is with the Belkin, you can program a delay in ms, so you can make it seem like you are actually pressing the keys (if you want to put in a 50ms delay, you can!)
I have the following macros:
0 (orbital command), s, tab, s - this is to select my orbital command/cc group and queue up 2 SCVs
7 (barracks) a, a - select barracks and queue up 2 marines
7 (barracks) a, a, a, a, d, d - select barracks and queue up 4 marines and 2 marauders. This is useful when you have say, 4 barracks with 2 labs and 2 reactors, which happens often in my game.
I will not go into further details, as you get the idea, but I have similar various setups for my factories and starports. I even have one super duper macro key for building SCVs, marines/marauders, tanks, and vikings and medivacs all in one key. So that is like 20 keystrokes on one key. I use that in late game if I let my money get too high.
I think macros are nice in that they let low APM people like me have a chance against really high APM players. I used to be stuck in silver, but now have advanced through gold into platinum, and I have to say I really like using macros as they help me level the playing field against faster players.
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The barracks thing is actually a REALLY awesome idea. I am not a Terran player but I've got a friend who is and I'll totally tell him that one.
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Hey someone posted a response from Blizzard early on dealing with this EXACT question. Someone got banned for using macro functions on a logitech keyboard and sent questioning the SC2 keyboards macro capabilities.
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9687/macros.png
note he directly says you cannot assign more then one action per keypress.
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On December 31 2010 01:05 eatenbyagrue wrote:
To answer the OP, here is how I use my macros. I have not yet utilized them for spellcasting, but I just use them to help me build units.
I have a Belkin n52 that I sit next to my keyboard. I use the keyboard to actually play, and leave the Belkin just for the macros.
When I want to macro up units, I slide my hand over to the Belkin. There are alot of buttons there, so I have them configured to build various quantities of units quickly, and I use different buttons for whether it is early game or mid/late. The nice thing is with the Belkin, you can program a delay in ms, so you can make it seem like you are actually pressing the keys (if you want to put in a 50ms delay, you can!)
I have the following macros:
0 (orbital command), s, tab, s - this is to select my orbital command/cc group and queue up 2 SCVs
7 (barracks) a, a - select barracks and queue up 2 marines
7 (barracks) a, a, a, a, d, d - select barracks and queue up 4 marines and 2 marauders. This is useful when you have say, 4 barracks with 2 labs and 2 reactors, which happens often in my game.
I will not go into further details, as you get the idea, but I have similar various setups for my factories and starports. I even have one super duper macro key for building SCVs, marines/marauders, tanks, and vikings and medivacs all in one key. So that is like 20 keystrokes on one key. I use that in late game if I let my money get too high.
I think macros are nice in that they let low APM people like me have a chance against really high APM players. I used to be stuck in silver, but now have advanced through gold into platinum, and I have to say I really like using macros as they help me level the playing field against faster players.
Seriously?
If you think there's any way to call this anything but blatant cheating, then please give me whatever you're smoking.
Cheating!= leveling the playing field.
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Heck, until a Blue on the Starcraft Forums issues a statement...I've got my answers. Frankly, if they ban me, fine. I'll show them the e-mail, got unbanned, and then relearn the non-macro way. If they don't ban me then wow, awesome, I can use macro's.
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On December 31 2010 02:11 chessiecat wrote:
Heck, until a Blue on the Starcraft Forums issues a statement...I've got my answers. Frankly, if they ban me, fine. I'll show them the e-mail, got unbanned, and then relearn the non-macro way. If they don't ban me then wow, awesome, I can use macro's.
Have fun staying in bronze! Learning to play the wrong way is not going to help you improve. If you are fine with that, then macros were designed for people like you. If you actually want to be challenged and improve, then stop cheating and learn how to play correctly.
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The problem with all you idiots is that you can't read.
You cannot use any third-party programs.According to the OP, he bought blizzard merchandise therefore it is not third-party.
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On December 31 2010 02:45 RageQuitter wrote:
The problem with all you idiots is that you can't read.
You cannot use any third-party programs.According to the OP, he bought blizzard merchandise therefore it is not third-party.
It's Razer's. Not Blizzard's.
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** edit **
The person JBrown08 is referring to is in Bronze, I take back this comment.
** edit **
@JBrown08 How does Macros = Bronze? Who are you to tell people the "right way" to play? Everyone plays differently, get over it. Chessiecat went out of his way to email blizz, and you troll him. It is almost 2011, people should be able to rebind keys in all games. Not all all hands are shaped the same and not all keyboards are shaped the same, don't be so naive.
What would you think of someone who repeats a mindless task over and over and doesn't make it more efficient?
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On December 31 2010 02:55 troynt wrote:
@JBrown08 How does Macros = Bronze? Who are you to tell people the "right way" to play? Everyone plays differently, get over it. Chessiecat went out of his way to email blizz, and you troll him. It is almost 2011, people should be able to rebind keys in all games. Not all all hands are shaped the same and not all keyboards are shaped the same, don't be so naive.
What would you think of someone who repeats a mindless task over and over and doesn't make it more efficient?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179118
We're not talking about custom hotkeys, as no one has a problem with those. They'll be out in the next patch. You still have to hit each key to do one action. Macros can do tons of actions with one button press.
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@sjschmidt93 my statement applies to any mindless task. You still have to press keys to perform tasks, just not as many.
e.g. 5, s, d - to build a drone
.
My opinion, as long as delays/loops are not used in the macro, it isn't "botting"/cheating.
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lol troynt
just because you feel something is "mechanical" or boring doesn't mean its not part of the game design and shouldn't be played.
people use the exact same argument as you for other bots/cheats...
"oh, leveling/honor grinding/gathering is boring in WoW, so I'll just bot a few levels/points/materials and get to the real of game (whatever)"
"oh, aiming is boring and too hard in shooters, so I'll use an aim-bot to get to the REAL game of just killing people"
"oh, i only like doing boss kills and pvp in diablo 2, so i'll use a pindlebot to farm gear since i don't like farming"
or even more related ...
"scouting is a boring part of starcraft, ill just use a maphack so i can get to the real game of army attacks"
sorry, but just because you don't like the macro side of the game or feel its not the main part of the game, doesn't make cheating acceptable.
at the end of it all, you're cheating by doing something your opponent cannot simply because you purchased a third party good or service. you're trying to eliminate an aspect of the game because you deem it unimportant.
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On December 31 2010 02:55 troynt wrote:
@JBrown08 How does Macros = Bronze? Who are you to tell people the "right way" to play? Everyone plays differently, get over it. Chessiecat went out of his way to email blizz, and you troll him. It is almost 2011, people should be able to rebind keys in all games. Not all all hands are shaped the same and not all keyboards are shaped the same, don't be so naive.
What would you think of someone who repeats a mindless task over and over and doesn't make it more efficient?
Well seeing as he created a thread named "The Fear of Bronze" I might be just going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure my statement was accurate.
Now with that said, you would do well to read the TeamLiquid Commandments in regards to calling someone a troll.
I was very serious when I said that using macro's is something that will not help him get out of bronze. The want to cheat the system and not actually improve is a much deeper ingrained problem.
A macro is cheating, you are using computer software to play a portion of the game for you. If you cannot understand this, then there really isn't much of a debate. Oh and go check out the automated ban list and see incontrol's comment when he banned someone in this thread. (Hint Hint: he called it cheating, what a shocker).
You don't come to a competitive StarCraft site and look for cheats, this site must just not be for you people. Maybe BNet is a more appropriate place.
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@JBrown08 Sorry, I didn't realize he already admitted he was in bronze, I missed the connection. I take back my comment.
@Bitters I said mindless (without thought), I didn't say boring. All the examples you listed are hacks and or using macros with time delays or looping -- obviously cheating. I'm referring to simple macros, ones that do not factor in time or looping.
e.g.
build a drone
F1 -> Presses 5, s, d
If you add unnecessary keystrokes to the game the game becomes less about strategy and more about keyboarding speed. We shouldn't be limited by the speed of our hands on the keyboard, only by our strategies.
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I rearranged the button on the left side of my mouse to 'backspace' (to center hatcheries)
would this count as a macro and be illegal in tournaments?
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On December 31 2010 04:59 troynt wrote:
If you add unnecessary keystrokes to the game the game becomes less about strategy and more about keyboarding speed. We shouldn't be limited by the speed of our hands on the keyboard, only by our strategies.
Except that's the way RTS games are designed. Ever since Dune 2 (and even to some degree its predecessors) reaction-speed and ability to quickly tell the computer what to do has been one of the things tested by this genre of games. Hence the "RT" in "real-time strategy". There are plenty of quality games where that's not one of the things that matters. The fact is that the designers put in a certain amount of wrestling with the interface on purpose. They made many things easier in SC2 compared to Brood War, but they didn't do all the things they could have. This was on purpose. You can argue about whether the game and the UI should be more or less automated, but it is NOT up to you to make the final call and change something. That is solely the province of Blizzard Entertainment.
Automating actions and breaking the 1 keypress = 1 action rule is giving yourself an advantage that someone who is playing the game solely with the UI that is presented in the game client does not have. It's cheating. Certain things have been explicitly approved, namely rebinding keys, but macros of the kind in the OP and several other posts in this thread are not approved.
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Blizzard's call was 'Hey, it's a gray area, use your judgment and if you don't get banned then you didn't screw up'.
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No, Aven, that's a 1:1 key bind. You're fine with that, under all circumstances.
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The thing I posted up there ^^ is a dirct response from blizzard when asked about using the BLIZZARD keyboard for macro (read: more then one keypress per key.)
Someone posted this on the first page and the OP did not actually read it. The poster was banned for using a regular macro keyboard, then sent a question at blizzard about the if he was using the blizzard keyboard. The blizzard employee directly stated that even with the blizzard keyboard more then one key assigned to one key was bannable.
Guess what guys, you don't like the games design? design your own or play it the way its made! Blizzard implemented alot of things in this game that BW people consider to be on the scale of cheating/noob (MBS, queueing) but it was THEIR decision.
If you don't like something in the game, tough. You personally changing the game is you playing by your own rules, also known as cheating. If your managing to do it and not get banned (because Razer hardware does the multiple keys from the hardware making it hard to detect.) go you but don't post about it here.
edit: also SC2 is not supposed to be a purely cerebral game. People talk like the challenging interface is some bug getting in the way of an ideal game where its purely like chess with troops and the better strategist wins. no! strategy is important but RTS games involve a speed/mechanical skill element too. Just because you suck at that doesn't mean the game sucks or is buggy.
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twst, what you don't understand is, there have been several things said by Blizzard, all of them conflicting. You may choose only to read one link, and believe it 100%, but the rest of us have read the others, coming from real Blizz associates as well, and they're not so cut and dry. The guy you're referring to is using a LOGITECH keyboard, not a Razer Marauder. Therefore it is "third-party". Something issued by Blizzard is "first-party". Something released by Razer but endorsed by Blizzard? Well, that's closer to "second-party", but as someone earlier pointed out, endorsement is backed in a court of law -- which is where this will end up, if Blizzard is as hostile about the subject as you and others here. People pay for the game; removing their right to play it because they use a keyboard that you endorse... well that's rather close to fraud, and is theft at the very least.
I believe in a fairly benevolent Blizzard. I don't think they'd do that. I think they're experimenting with an idea, and some of us here are oaks, breaking with the winds of change. Others here are willows, moving with the changes, waiting to see what happens next.
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First off, the post was actually a guy with a logitech keyboard asking about if he had been using the Blizzard keyboard. He was upset that he was banned but that someone using a blizz one wouldn't be (which would be ludicrous.)
Secondly, yeah there have been multiple posts from different blizzard reps on the subject which leads me to think it is probably being debated at blizzard as well/ they don't have a clearly worded policy on it. Another problem is that Blizzard's keyboard is made by Razer, which makes it's macros undetectable as compared to a software based macro system (feel free to correct if Im wrong.)
My original opinion still stands though. I don't care about 3rd party/blizz issues, I just don't think it makes sense to go "I don't like the interface, I can script things," regardless of how effective it is or how talented the people using it are. I think they need to make a clear statement regarding their definition of bots/maphacks because my opinion is still that any program/hardware altering the interface externally ( multiple keypresses -> one ) really does make the game unfair.
All that said, I actually agree with you on the final point. Blizzard is a great company and I'm sure at some point in their busy schedule (not being sarcastic their developing multiple games and trying to manage a fledgling online community with huge expectations on them) they'll come out with a clearer stated opinion. If they say its alright then it's alright and scripting/using scripts is a valid part of the skill-set of starcraft 2, if not then "extra mouse clicks" is part of the skill set and one of us will have to deal with it
My real irritation is only with the sentiment of "Hey this is hard and I don't see the point, I should change it" instead of actually learning to play the game they are designing. Thats just how alot of it strikes me but hey I'm just some random kid... so best of luck and if you are gonna use macros make sure their hardware based c shitty software macros==banhammer!
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The generally accepted rule (as far as I know) is 1 click on a mouse should be equal to 1 click on the keyboard if you are going that route. Therefore injecting your larva in 2 clicks is not possibly abiding and therefore you are cheating.
How to inject larvae without cheating:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125725
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The spirit of the rule is to prevent an uneven playing field; meaning whether or not it's a third party product (or official blizzard product) isn't really nearly as important as establishing what's fair between players.
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I have questions about the default set "Profiles" inside of the Marauder; do they count as 1:1 binds or are they potentially macros as well? Could someone with an actual keyboard provide us with more detailed information? I know the OPer put a few examples, but a lot of the details have kind of been melted in the flame war.
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The only reason for you to do this is to get an unfair advantage over other players. Allowed by the TOS or not, I don't see how you would even get satisfaction from your wins.
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I think some people here are trying to be stupid.
Blizzard has always stated that one key press = one action. NEVER more.
How can you not understand this? ALL emails from Blizzard say this and you still dont get it.
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On January 01 2011 09:05 CounterOrder wrote:
I think some people here are trying to be stupid.
Blizzard has always stated that one key press = one action. NEVER more.
How can you not understand this? ALL emails from Blizzard say this and you still dont get it.
Actually they don't. They actually have no clue what they're talking about apparently and it doesn't matter to them. Then again your forcing them to back away from a promoted product by clarifying the rules. Protip, they wont. Guess its not cheating because cash rules everything.
Not saying its not really cheesy after a point to have automated macros. Not saying most of the community likes them. Just saying that anyone who bought that keyboard and used the macros will probably not get banned. And if they somehow do all they have to say is Blizzard supported it, bam UNBAN.
I'm surprised this thread isn't locked yet. The majority of the posts are completely off topic. Including this one.
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On January 01 2011 09:16 Hubris wrote:
Then again your forcing them to back away from a promoted product by clarifying the rules. Protip, they wont. Guess its not cheating because cash rules everything. .
On January 01 2011 09:05 CounterOrder wrote:
I think some people here are trying to be stupid.
Blizzard has always stated that one key press = one action. NEVER more.
How can you not understand this? ALL emails from Blizzard say this and you still dont get it.
did you read OP's e-mail to blizzard?
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This should settle it once and for all.
My question to Blizzard:
+ Show Spoiler +
My question is whether macros are allowed in Starcraft 2.
Is it for example allowed to make your Psi Storm a one-click cast? Is it allowed to make Spawn Larva a one-click cast for your Queens? Is it allowed to create a macro that switches f rom what you currently have selected, to your marines, stim the marines, and switch back?
Is it more allowed if you bought the Spectre Mouse and Marauder keyboard? They come with a program capable of creating macros. They are both manufactured by Razer but they seem to be licensed by Blizzard.
Their response:
Hello Boxxi, Thank you for your email. Anything that permits you to do with a single click what you'd usually need two or more clicks or key-presses to accomplish isn't permitted. Mapping individual actions to individual buttons (effectively giving an action a new "hotkey" on your mouse or keyboard) is fine, but any sort of performing multiple actions with a single click would be viewed as an unfair advantage in a multiplayer game. If you have any further questions or concerns please do not hesitate to contact us again. Best regards, Blizzard Entertainment Europe Adam L. Account and Technical Support http://eu.blizzard.com/support
It does not matter whether you use the macro program you get with the Razer keyboard/mouse or some other macro program. It does not make it more okay if you use the bundled one. That program Razer is responsible for and Razer only; they most likely did not ask Blizzard for permission or anything like that.
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according to razer's website. the marauder keyboard and mouse are tournament ready
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doubt you can call it macro but i have mouse5 bound as backslash and mouse4 as 0. since im zerg i bind all my queens to 0 and with backslash i can switch to all my bases really quick for larva inject with shift+x.
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Everyone is Hitler. Can we end this thread now please? Blizzard will issue a ruling eventually. For now, the macro's are just not affecting my game that much. As much as I've been messing with them in every match-up the best I've managed is some MILDLY more efficient spell casting with my units sometimes going for a run to the other end of the map and picking their noses in the middle of a hail of gunfire.
I dunno if this is some artifact of the Marauder and Spectre, but frankly the macro's are kind of under-whelming. You can only run one at a time so these people claiming that you can run some kind of 'perfect probe production' scheme are talking out of their rears. You can produce probes but the actual increase in efficiency is slight and you won't automate it in any way without using some program besides the one included with the keyboard.
The unit production thing that lets you set up a hot-key to build off multiple structures works, IF you have those structures up. Again, slightly underwhelming increase in speed. The actual hand-speed required to do the same thing without using the macro is tiny and the lack of control over your precise unit composition makes it more worthwhile to not use it.
I haven't experienced this 'vast swing of speed that instantly wins games'. In fact, being that most games end before the 12 minute mark the major advantages I've had involved binding Chrono-boost to one key. This has the unfortunate side effect of once in a while Chrono-boosting my Nexus without meaning to so I kind of abandoned it.
Yeah, the macro's are cute. I don't know that I'll be using them. They're sort of 'meh' in terms of actual changes to game-play and tend to be inflexible or, at worst, to cause more problems than they solve.
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On January 02 2011 09:02 chessiecat wrote:
Everyone is Hitler. Can we end this thread now please? Blizzard will issue a ruling eventually. For now, the macro's are just not affecting my game that much. As much as I've been messing with them in every match-up the best I've managed is some MILDLY more efficient spell casting with my units sometimes going for a run to the other end of the map and picking their noses in the middle of a hail of gunfire.
I dunno if this is some artifact of the Marauder and Spectre, but frankly the macro's are kind of under-whelming. You can only run one at a time so these people claiming that you can run some kind of 'perfect probe production' scheme are talking out of their rears. You can produce probes but the actual increase in efficiency is slight and you won't automate it in any way without using some program besides the one included with the keyboard.
The unit production thing that lets you set up a hot-key to build off multiple structures works, IF you have those structures up. Again, slightly underwhelming increase in speed. The actual hand-speed required to do the same thing without using the macro is tiny and the lack of control over your precise unit composition makes it more worthwhile to not use it.
I haven't experienced this 'vast swing of speed that instantly wins games'. In fact, being that most games end before the 12 minute mark the major advantages I've had involved binding Chrono-boost to one key. This has the unfortunate side effect of once in a while Chrono-boosting my Nexus without meaning to so I kind of abandoned it.
Yeah, the macro's are cute. I don't know that I'll be using them. They're sort of 'meh' in terms of actual changes to game-play and tend to be inflexible or, at worst, to cause more problems than they solve.
the e-mail boxxi posted is a very clear-cut ruling. macros are against the rules. they do not intend for you to be able to simulate multiple key presses with a single key press. having said that, i seriously doubt you will get caught/banned.
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I thought about using macros but wat would they do its not like u cant do something with them if u have that much energy on ur infestors that u can spam that many infested terrans then i would see that as a issue with ur gameplay.
At the end of the day if u are play well and have a good control group setup and know the hotkeys on the keyboard macros are just plain unecessary
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Back on topic...
Queen inject macro: 5-backspace-inject set to an extra mouse button. Allows me to inject with just two clicks of the mouse.
123 attack macro: 1-attack-click-2-attack-click-3-attack-click all set to the "`" key. For late game when I have a huge army. As zerg it's usually best to attack from 3 sides and sandwich your opponent. With one keystroke I can command all three attack groups to attack the same spot instantaneously.
Roach stutter step macro: (May also work for marines, stalkers, and marauder) I haven't tested this yet but I think it could be super effective, maybe even game breaking. move-delay-delay-delay-stop, with the key macro option "repeat as long as the key is held" on. What this should do is once the delay is set for the exact same amount as the roaches attack cool down. This should allow you to simply hold down one key, move the mouse and the roaches will basically attack anything in range every attack cool down and continue to move where you want.
APM macro. I saw on a youtube video some guy would hold ONE key down and his APM shot up to 3,000 (yes 3K) lol. I don't know exactly what his macro was set to but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to figure out. No real benefits other then for fun.
I can see peoples concern with macros. I think Blizzard may have made a mistake allowing the SC2 name to be put on a product that supports macros. Because once the dust settles I predict money will trump all and some form of macros will be allowed. But I don't think any of the hard core players have anything to worry about. I have played around with macros and they are hardly game breaking. If they were you would already see half the ladder exploiting it.
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The end of line is pretty simple. With Macro's the player is a 2000 diamond lets say, without he's more like 500 diamond. In this particular case he'll still be matched up with players his own skill level, even if it's assisted skill level. Here's the catch though, you and me are getting better while the guy using the macro's isn't as good as his rank says he is.
That's all I really care about, I don't care if I lost to twins playing with each other at the same time if I can figure out why I lost I can improve my game, and my tools are the generic everyday keyboards and mice. I can walk into a lan or play at a buddies house and be the same skill level, I can keep getting better and working on making my macro tight while he can't.
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I am sorry this thread had to go so off-topic and talk about whether macros are allowed or not and not what macros we are using.
I do think that macros are officially not allowed by Blizzard but that you seldom if ever will get caught and/or banned for doing it. Just like you probably won't get caught for littering 99% of the time as energy and tax-payer money is better spent elsewhere. That doesn't make it legal to do it.
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Its cheating, as bad as using a hack. Come on, even if Blizzard lets this slide (which will make me /facepalmx9001), having a magical keyboard that lets you do things faster and easier than other people is unfair, and if I face you and you win, I won't blame myself because you were cheating. Having a better keyboard and mouse lets you use you skill more efficiently, having a keyboard that does things for you is skipping the need for skill.
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Zeetee didn't...actually read my post. Wow. Okay, guess I'm...pretty much done here.
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Australia8532 Posts
On December 28 2010 10:29 chessiecat wrote:
I've recently gotten a Spectre Mouse and a Marauder keyboard and found that they have some truly amazing potential for bullshit on the macro side of things.
Currently when I'm set to my Zerg profile, I can roll the mouse-wheel forward while playing with Infestors to expend all of their energy on Infested Terrans in less than a second. It's a huge MASS of beachballs dropping all at once. Very ugly.
I've also got my Psi-storm and Guardian shield set to one click casting and for Zerg I can inject larvae on all of my Hatcheries with two button clicks. EMP's are single click and I have a macro set to super-quickly (when I have a group of marines, marauders, and ghosts selected) switch to the Marines and stim instantly (less than one millisecond) then switch back to the Ghosts.
Altogether I don't get to see most of these kinds of things used very often. I'm curious as to what your macros are? None of these seem particularly game breaking. They just simplify things significantly. Certainly Zerg macro is a lot easier with them.
I have yet to make Blink micro work with a macro but meh, I'll figure it out eventually.
What macro's do you usually set and what keyboard do you use to set them?
_____________
There's been a little controversy on this thread as to whether these products are likely to get you banned and what limits are on current macro set-ups. Obviously this system doesn't allow for some of the more complex pieces of macro.
I can't make it consistently Blink, it won't operate most race macro-mechanics with any reasonable reliability (The Zerg have this particular thing the worst. If you have an un-even number of Queens, they tend to attempt to walk to the other side of the map rather than injecting) and while it does switch units very quickly and apply buffs like guardian shield, it tends to fail miserably if your unit composition isn't precisely what it was when the macro was set.
At best, your units get their buff but get slightly distracted in battle. At worst, they wander headlong into an enemy composition like a line of pointy ducklings.
Has anyone seen Blizzard issue some proclamation on this?
None because it is cheating.
See email above.
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Ok so I'm playing against people who one click to make units, that's just marvelous. I wonder how many of these there on top of the ladder.
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On January 02 2011 23:11 Scoop wrote:
Ok so I'm playing against people who one click to make units, that's just marvelous. I wonder how many of these there on top of the ladder.
Should be relatively simple to figure out when they have like 50 apm over the course of the game and then suddenly it shoots up to like 500 for a second. But it's really troubling if some top players for instance begun using these. Online tournaments can't make sure people aren't using macros, or can they?
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I love how everyone here ignores the other two or three emails that say it isn't cheating and focus on one that does.
I understand if you're pissed. No one is saying it's fair or whatever, but it's certainly not going to get you banned with such vague responses.
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On January 03 2011 02:12 Hubris wrote:
I love how everyone here ignores the other two or three emails that say it isn't cheating and focus on one that does.
I understand if you're pissed. No one is saying it's fair or whatever, but it's certainly not going to get you banned with such vague responses.
There isn't a single e-mail that said macros are okay. Macros perform multiple actions with fewer clicks than the original. The e-mails say 1:1 key binds are fine, and to use common sense. If you're doing crap like this:
On January 02 2011 19:34 lowlypawn wrote:
Back on topic...
Queen inject macro: 5-backspace-inject set to an extra mouse button. Allows me to inject with just two clicks of the mouse.
123 attack macro: 1-attack-click-2-attack-click-3-attack-click all set to the "`" key. For late game when I have a huge army. As zerg it's usually best to attack from 3 sides and sandwich your opponent. With one keystroke I can command all three attack groups to attack the same spot instantaneously.
Roach stutter step macro: (May also work for marines, stalkers, and marauder) I haven't tested this yet but I think it could be super effective, maybe even game breaking. move-delay-delay-delay-stop, with the key macro option "repeat as long as the key is held" on. What this should do is once the delay is set for the exact same amount as the roaches attack cool down. This should allow you to simply hold down one key, move the mouse and the roaches will basically attack anything in range every attack cool down and continue to move where you want.
APM macro. I saw on a youtube video some guy would hold ONE key down and his APM shot up to 3,000 (yes 3K) lol. I don't know exactly what his macro was set to but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to figure out. No real benefits other then for fun.
I can see peoples concern with macros. I think Blizzard may have made a mistake allowing the SC2 name to be put on a product that supports macros. Because once the dust settles I predict money will trump all and some form of macros will be allowed. But I don't think any of the hard core players have anything to worry about. I have played around with macros and they are hardly game breaking. If they were you would already see half the ladder exploiting it.
then you are blatantly violating the rules. Customizing your set up, any way you see fit, is one thing; hell, using the middle mouse scroll to spam infested Terrans is still cool, because each scroll counts as an action, but "stutter step" macros? Hell, I don't really even have an issue with the 123 attack macro, because similar could be achieved using hotkeys (1 shift 2 shift 3; the problem of course is there's no method to remove the group before terminating the command) if the UI were better. But somethings are STILL crossing the line. A macro that builds an entire army for you? Yeah, no thanks...
By the way, anyone who says discussing the macros legitimacy as being off-topic is being slightly narrow-minded. This is an issue that HAS to be addressed; it's not going away. If people post their macros, they obviously don't see a problem with them; but this is a community decision, not an individual one. Sure, there are some people that will read people up here saying they're cheating and not care; but I believe there are also people who will read reviews of their set ups, and consider the points made by others here in regards to abusability.
A baseline MUST be established.
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Honestly, I'm pretty disappointed by Blizzard endorsing these products to begin with. When I first saw them advertised - with programmable macros as a selling point - I was pretty dumbfounded. Why would they open up such a can of worms? Even if Blizzard do not allow macros in their terms of service (and the above customer support responses have been ridiculously vague), marketing such a product obviously creates confusion. And while I'm heavily against the use of macros, I can imagine people who bought the (ludicrously priced) product on this basis feeling pretty ripped off if they risk being banned for using the advertised functionality. If Blizzard's mission is to create the most successful competitive e-sport game, then this seriously undermines their goal.
As for people trying to justify the use of macros by downplaying their significance or saying they aren't game changing... That's really not the point. Either you're getting some form of competitive advantage, or you're not. If you're getting any advantage at all that's not available to other players (and clearly you are), then there's a serious problem.
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Either you're getting some form of competitive advantage, or you're not. If you're getting any advantage at all that's not available to other players (and clearly you are), then there's a serious problem.
It is not a black and white issue. For example, remapping scrollwheel to spawn infested terran.
A faster computer could also provide a competitive advantage, however we don't seem to care if everyone uses the same computer or not. ( Probably because it would never happen. )
Accept that not everyone plays with the same computers, input devices, or hand sizes. Therefore, you should just play the way that works best for you. In the end, the best strategy usually wins, these macros/input devices are not going to carry you. Even if they did carry you, there is always someone who is better than you.
If you want to play in an atmosphere where all things are equal, play in tournaments where players are on site playing on the same computers etc. Otherwise, just accept that you can not control other people.
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heres my setup
g110
g1 - g
g2 - l
g3 - (space)
g4 - (empty)
g5 - h
g6 - f
g9x
mouse 3 - (empty), g9x middle mouse button is STIFF
mouse 4 - shift
mouse 5 - backspace
this way i can say 'gl hf' by just runnin my hand across the side of the keyboard, and i can center on hatches with my mouse
lazy? you betcha
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It's clearly cheating, it's almost impossible to be caught on certain keyboard types, and I'm not sure exactly how much of an advantage any of these macros actually give you until you're good enough that you shouldn't even need them.
It's actually nearly impossible to get any truly game-breaking macros to work in a manner that you can fully depend on. To set these types of macros, you have to have perfect conditions, and in a game like Starcraft, there are many, MANY ways that your opponents actions can completely obliterate your "perfect" macro. A single sniped queen, for instance, can make an inject macro completely useless until you send all your queens (back) to their proper locations, replace the sniped queen, and reset it's control #. In the meantime, you might lose another queen, or start a new hatch at the wrong time, or any other variable you can think of.
The most useful macros that you can make are simple ones that have been stated multiple times. Things like setting Mouse3 to [3-g-Mouse1-1] to switch from the lings you're controlling, single-click casting from your infestors (on control 3), and instantly switch back to your lings. Or something like setting G1 to [4-s-rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-1] to switch off your control group, make a round of roaches, and switch instantly back to your control group so that everything gets done faster, making it easier to perform actions while in high-action battles or other various micro-intensive times. These types of actions are very helpful, and might ACTUALLY be incorporated into future RTS games. But for now, it's not how Blizzard intends for their game to be played, and it's not allowed in ANY tournament. One would probably be correct in the assumption that EVERY pro on the scene has a keyboard capable of performing these macros, and as such it probably doesn't create an unfair advantage for anybody... BUT the people in charge want to reward particular skills that set players apart, and macros remove the need for those talents.
With that all said, I'm not convinced that binding simple macros to individual keys will help a player suddenly jump from 300pt Bronze to 2000pt Diamond, at Bronze level, you're not thinking about the things you need to do, you're losing because you don't know what you need to do. It certainly could help you jump from 1500ish Diamond to 2.5k or even 3k or more by making your macro mechanics easier to perform. At mid-Diamond and up, you usually know what you need to do, but you don't because you feel like you have to watch what's happening in front of you and be in complete control of your units. If you can bind 2, 3, whatever, 10 actions to a single key, suddenly that thing you need to do can be mindlessly executed with a single press of a key, which can give you a competitive edge against someone who has to manually carry out the same actions. And once you reach the top of the ladder... What then? At that level you become a well-known player, your replays are going to get out into the community, people are going to see your APM shoot up to 3000+ for split seconds while you play, and you're going to be exposed as a user of macros as a crutch to your game... What good is that, really?
If you want a game where you don't have to incorporate macro-mechanics (in the RTS sense of the word), or intensive micro-mechanics into your play, you are playing the wrong game, and should probably check out UMS games like Zone Control or other popular RTS games like Dawn of War or other games with auto-spawning units that are very focused on simply moving your units around. While you probably won't be caught, or even punished if you are, for using keyboard macros in SC2, you should know that you are playing with an unfair advantage over the vast majority of the ladder.
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Just because Blizzard makes(or contracts out or whatever) keyboards that have the ability to macro, doesn't automatically make it condoned. You can also use Starcraft 2 keyboards to threaten people on battle.net, but it is still not allowed. That being said, I doubt very many games are ever won or lost due to macro buttons. I would personally never use them, seems to violate the spirit of Starcraft, where making units and structures is just as integral to winning as controlling your army.
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Pro players think that Starcraft should be as difficult to play as possible, as it allows them all the micro and UI abuses possible to win games. No one can really explain how that makes Starcraft a better game.
Gnome showed that even a flaky player can beat the best by fooling his opponent with feints, hidden strengths, and better strategy. But let's not confuse Starcraft II with a strategy game; it's all about who can navigate the maze of buttons the fastest.
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But let's not confuse Starcraft II with a strategy game; it's all about who can navigate the maze of buttons the fastest.
This quote is so ridiculous I want to punch myself in the face. If learning the hotkeys for a race is a "maze" to you dude... I don't think you should even be playing computer games at all. Stick to halo. Nice and easy 1 stick to move you and 1 button to shoot colorful blobs in front of you. That sounds like your type of game.
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On January 04 2011 02:27 MerciLess wrote:
Just because Blizzard makes(or contracts out or whatever) keyboards that have the ability to macro, doesn't automatically make it condoned.
Yes it does. That's the whole point. The terms of service disallow third-party programs, but explicitly make an exception for those which are endorsed by Blizzard. The Razer software is a third-party program that is endorsed by Blizzard. The terms of service make it completely clear that it is allowed.
And for all of you saying "but it's so obviously cheating!", Blizzard is not a 13-year-old game master who makes up new rules on a whim. They are a large company owned by an even larger company with an enormous legal department. The terms of service are everything. Banning people for this will end up with a class-action lawsuit that they will almost certainly lose.
As for why anyone would want to use macros, it makes the game mechanics more comfortable, in exactly the same way that custom hotkeys do. The auto-matchmaker is always going to give you a 50-50 match, so what business is it of yours how someone else chooses to enjoy their game?
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Pirsq, I'm assuming you're purposely being obtuse because if you're sincere I feel sorry for your ability to comprehend simple concepts. Blizzard would lose a class action lawsuit about banning people who violate the TOS? Macros(multiple key entries) are the same as custom-hotkeys(never more than 1 key)? If maphacks make someone more comfortable, it's none of my business? Since when are we suppose to ignore what other players do in games and sports and let them play the games however they want to? I'm sure you joking, because I don't think anyone but a troll could have stuffed so many logical fallacies into 3 small paragraphs.
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On January 04 2011 04:43 MerciLess wrote:
Pirsq, I'm assuming you're purposely being obtuse because if you're sincere I feel sorry for your ability to comprehend simple concepts. Blizzard would lose a class action lawsuit about banning people who violate the TOS? Macros(multiple key entries) are the same as custom-hotkeys(never more than 1 key)? If maphacks make someone more comfortable, it's none of my business? Since when are we suppose to ignore what other players do in games and sports and let them play the games however they want to? I'm sure you joking, because I don't think anyone but a troll could have stuffed so many logical fallacies into 3 small paragraphs.
I think you failed to read my post. How exactly does it violate the terms of service?
You probably haven't read that either. It's right here: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/termsofuse.html
It prohibits "unauthorized third-party software". The key word is "unauthorized". The word isn't defined in the licence, so it's somewhat vague, but in this scenario, any court is going to find that actively promoting the product for use with Starcraft 2 counts as authorizing it for that use.
Afterthought: if they did ban people, Razer would probably be the first to sue them. How would you feel if you paid Blizzard several million dollars to use their brand on your product, and then they went ahead and banned your customers for using that product for exactly its intended purpose? Would significantly dent Blizzard's chance of getting endorsement deals with other companies in future, too.
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I don't see why people are expecting Blizzard to enforce this, most macros will be impossible to detect. I don't even see much of an advantage at all to using them. So you can inject in two clicks? Bind the backspace key to your mouse, and you can inject nearly as fast. The difference would be milliseconds. The macro will get you an advantage over someone who doesn't inject properly, but that's it. Personally I will be happy if they can detect maphack, I'm not at all worried about macros.
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chessiecat, you have good common sense.
Use that keyboard all you want. Blizzard is not going to do anything.
Anyone can have a SC2 tourney and make up any rule they like. I could say NO CRT monitors as they give unfair advantage. If you don't like the rules just don't play in the tourney. They do not own blizzard its just a tourney.
If you are at home playing SC2 desert strike or ladder blizzard has no idea what your doing.
ban you LOL.
For one thing if they were to do something stupid like that you could kill them in small claims court. If its not easily found or conveyed by the company then NO there is no rule on using that keyboard.
I think there are people here that in there minds if they were the rule maker (and they are not) they would ban you for using a macro.
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Ok. I've read like the first 8 pages of responses on this thread.
I will not reiterate what the other ppl said.But know one thing.
Blizz can ban u for any reason from not liking the sound of ur name or they having a bad day at the office.It's in the freaking ToS .Thats stated in the WoW EULA too(the wall of text that no one reads and u press "accept" 3-4 times after u patched WoW).
Please remember that when u are trying to justify "is a Blizz product".It's not a Blizz product.If it has they're name on them ,doesnt mean it's a Blizz product.It's a Razer product or whatever company made it.
They banned ppl in WoW for even less.ToS states that they can ban u for any non-logical reason they can think off.
And when u press "I Agree" u cannot take legal actions if they ban u.Simple as that.
Not gonna start the ol' "back in my days,we had to click on each buildings to make stuff" .
I'm not a imba BW player.I was D- on Iccup,because when i started playing RTS WC3 was the next big thing.
The point is the interface already becomed incredibly simple.What do u want more?
When i've read certain ppl posts regarding "EMP macros" or "Larva inject macro".
If u want to perfectly inject larva,mentally train urself to count in ur head and every 40 game sec,an reflex should appear,like a ur finger twitching or a small itch on ur nose.
And then u will inject larva like a metronome.
If ppl will accept this? Ppl have proved that in the past,the more amends u make to them,the more they will want later.
Soon they will want giant macros that will allow entire BO to be perfectly done without any human error (missing a svc or harvesting 4 more gas then necessary).
Again,they banned ppl for far less in WoW.They can ban u for nothing.Is stated in the ToS.
Do not give them any reasons to do that.
Play the game as it is.
I don't see why people are expecting Blizzard to enforce this, most macros will be impossible to detect. I don't even see much of an advantage at all to using them. So you can inject in two clicks? Bind the backspace key to your mouse, and you can inject nearly as fast. The difference would be milliseconds. The macro will get you an advantage over someone who doesn't inject properly, but that's it. Personally I will be happy if they can detect maphack, I'm not at all worried about macros.
If u play a long macro game with like 4-5 hatches or more,the advantage of someone using macro compared to someone not using it is not milliseconds.It's more like 1-2 seconds.And for ppl saying "1-2 sec more is shit" pls think that sometimes those 1-2 sec will add up on the course of a long game.And that is spare time which u can do more.
And that will be even more relevant in a mirror match.
ZvZ is most of the time a macro game.Perfect injects means more larva which means more stuff,including and not limited to drones.
At low lvl,macros can patch the gap from lack of mechanincs.But if better ppl start using them,at higher skill lvl,they will know how to use those extra 2 sec or the extra larva considering the other guy doesnt have perfect larva injecting skills (most pros still miss a inject by a few to tens of seconds).
And that will make ppl not using them start using them (assuming they are legal as some ppl claim).
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On January 06 2011 21:52 Akash wrote:Ok. I've read like the first 8 pages of responses on this thread. I will not reiterate what the other ppl said.But know one thing. Blizz can ban u for any reason from not liking the sound of ur name or they having a bad day at the office.It's in the freaking ToS .Thats stated in the WoW EULA too(the wall of text that no one reads and u press "accept" 3-4 times after u patched WoW). Please remember that when u are trying to justify "is a Blizz product".It's not a Blizz product.If it has they're name on them ,doesnt mean it's a Blizz product.It's a Razer product or whatever company made it. They banned ppl in WoW for even less.ToS states that they can ban u for any non-logical reason they can think off. And when u press "I Agree" u cannot take legal actions if they ban u.Simple as that. Not gonna start the ol' "back in my days,we had to click on each buildings to make stuff" . I'm not a imba BW player.I was D- on Iccup,because when i started playing RTS WC3 was the next big thing. The point is the interface already becomed incredibly simple.What do u want more? When i've read certain ppl posts regarding "EMP macros" or "Larva inject macro". If u want to perfectly inject larva,mentally train urself to count in ur head and every 40 game sec,an reflex should appear,like a ur finger twitching or a small itch on ur nose. And then u will inject larva like a metronome. If ppl will accept this? Ppl have proved that in the past,the more amends u make to them,the more they will want later. Soon they will want giant macros that will allow entire BO to be perfectly done without any human error (missing a svc or harvesting 4 more gas then necessary). Again,they banned ppl for far less in WoW.They can ban u for nothing.Is stated in the ToS. Do not give them any reasons to do that. Play the game as it is. Show nested quote +I don't see why people are expecting Blizzard to enforce this, most macros will be impossible to detect. I don't even see much of an advantage at all to using them. So you can inject in two clicks? Bind the backspace key to your mouse, and you can inject nearly as fast. The difference would be milliseconds. The macro will get you an advantage over someone who doesn't inject properly, but that's it. Personally I will be happy if they can detect maphack, I'm not at all worried about macros. If u play a long macro game with like 4-5 hatches or more,the advantage of someone using macro compared to someone not using it is not milliseconds.It's more like 1-2 seconds.And for ppl saying "1-2 sec more is shit" pls think that sometimes those 1-2 sec will add up on the course of a long game.And that is spare time which u can do more. And that will be even more relevant in a mirror match. ZvZ is most of the time a macro game.Perfect injects means more larva which means more stuff,including and not limited to drones. At low lvl,macros can patch the gap from lack of mechanincs.But if better ppl start using them,at higher skill lvl,they will know how to use those extra 2 sec or the extra larva considering the other guy doesnt have perfect larva injecting skills (most pros still miss a inject by a few to tens of seconds). And that will make ppl not using them start using them (assuming they are legal as some ppl claim).
It's Blizzard licensed, promoted, and sold. It's a Blizz product. This isn't a difficult concept. And "they can ban you for whatever they want" isn't part of the argument against macros. Even if it was, being a BLIZZARD LICENSED PRODUCT you'd be able to sue or at least get unbanned. I'm not for either side of macros because I think it's retarded to blow it out of proportion, but this ignoring of simple logic and legal ability is just mind numbing.
Edit: Not directed to you specifically, but this entire thread is filled with people who are angry at others for having some sort of advantage. Sorry, it might not seem just, but there are thousands of these products out there. So, until Blizz either pulls the product or makes it CLEAR for the thousands of people using their game that it isn't allowed it will continue to be used.
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Edit: Not directed to you specifically, but this entire thread is filled with people who are angry at others for having some sort of advantage. Sorry, it might not seem just, but there are thousands of these products out there. So, until Blizz either pulls the product or makes it CLEAR for the thousands of people using their game that it isn't allowed it will continue to be used.
No offence taken m8.But u are right.Untill blizz or a blue post comes out and tells us that is bad,ppl will think its legit and keep using them.
Someone should post on blizz forums and see if they get Nethaera or other developer to shed some light on this.
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Pretty sure its not allowed, probably written somewhere in the long ToS that nobody ever reads but accepts anyways. You have to realise that if you accept the ToS, then you have to abide to the rules or possibly get your account banned. At that point you honestly can't really complain because the ToS specifically states that you understand the rules and are willing to respect it.
Of course this is all based on the presumption that it is banned according to the ToS.
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from the sounds of the posts. It appears a heard mentality or maybe an age thing.
Macros are not a cheat.
Any company can do anything it wants Blizzard can shut down all their servers etc. Don't live in fear and don't listen to the dribble of some of these minors with no legal experience.
use your keyboard don't listen to the 10 year olds.
this is not WOW its about SC2 macros.
And the Tos will not hold up in court concerning macros. Its a stupid conversation cause it will never get to that point. More likely whiners will protest to blizzard much like a kid say "Im telling my mom" someday these kids will grow up.
It is not a modification to any of the source code.
Don't use a lazer mouse pad, the fantasy net cops will ban you!
Its all a bunch of fear mongering from cry babies that think its a cheat.
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I have an Ideazon reaper edge mouse and Razer lycosa keyboard, and 0 hotkey bindings.
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On January 04 2011 04:31 pirsq wrote:
Banning people for this will end up with a class-action lawsuit that they will almost certainly lose.
read a treatise on complex litigation and shrinkwrap contracts please
also with actual damages at less than 60 dollars per customer (lets pretend that blizz will stipulate to these damages even though this would never happen), no lawyer would ever take the case as it wouldn't be remotely profitable.
that being said, blizzard are still ridiculous for this whole situation rofl
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On January 06 2011 23:07 Hubris wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 21:52 Akash wrote:Ok. I've read like the first 8 pages of responses on this thread. I will not reiterate what the other ppl said.But know one thing. Blizz can ban u for any reason from not liking the sound of ur name or they having a bad day at the office.It's in the freaking ToS .Thats stated in the WoW EULA too(the wall of text that no one reads and u press "accept" 3-4 times after u patched WoW). Please remember that when u are trying to justify "is a Blizz product".It's not a Blizz product.If it has they're name on them ,doesnt mean it's a Blizz product.It's a Razer product or whatever company made it. They banned ppl in WoW for even less.ToS states that they can ban u for any non-logical reason they can think off. And when u press "I Agree" u cannot take legal actions if they ban u.Simple as that. Not gonna start the ol' "back in my days,we had to click on each buildings to make stuff" . I'm not a imba BW player.I was D- on Iccup,because when i started playing RTS WC3 was the next big thing. The point is the interface already becomed incredibly simple.What do u want more? When i've read certain ppl posts regarding "EMP macros" or "Larva inject macro". If u want to perfectly inject larva,mentally train urself to count in ur head and every 40 game sec,an reflex should appear,like a ur finger twitching or a small itch on ur nose. And then u will inject larva like a metronome. If ppl will accept this? Ppl have proved that in the past,the more amends u make to them,the more they will want later. Soon they will want giant macros that will allow entire BO to be perfectly done without any human error (missing a svc or harvesting 4 more gas then necessary). Again,they banned ppl for far less in WoW.They can ban u for nothing.Is stated in the ToS. Do not give them any reasons to do that. Play the game as it is. I don't see why people are expecting Blizzard to enforce this, most macros will be impossible to detect. I don't even see much of an advantage at all to using them. So you can inject in two clicks? Bind the backspace key to your mouse, and you can inject nearly as fast. The difference would be milliseconds. The macro will get you an advantage over someone who doesn't inject properly, but that's it. Personally I will be happy if they can detect maphack, I'm not at all worried about macros. If u play a long macro game with like 4-5 hatches or more,the advantage of someone using macro compared to someone not using it is not milliseconds.It's more like 1-2 seconds.And for ppl saying "1-2 sec more is shit" pls think that sometimes those 1-2 sec will add up on the course of a long game.And that is spare time which u can do more. And that will be even more relevant in a mirror match. ZvZ is most of the time a macro game.Perfect injects means more larva which means more stuff,including and not limited to drones. At low lvl,macros can patch the gap from lack of mechanincs.But if better ppl start using them,at higher skill lvl,they will know how to use those extra 2 sec or the extra larva considering the other guy doesnt have perfect larva injecting skills (most pros still miss a inject by a few to tens of seconds). And that will make ppl not using them start using them (assuming they are legal as some ppl claim). It's Blizzard licensed, promoted, and sold. It's a Blizz product. This isn't a difficult concept. And "they can ban you for whatever they want" isn't part of the argument against macros. Even if it was, being a BLIZZARD LICENSED PRODUCT you'd be able to sue or at least get unbanned. I'm not for either side of macros because I think it's retarded to blow it out of proportion, but this ignoring of simple logic and legal ability is just mind numbing. Edit: Not directed to you specifically, but this entire thread is filled with people who are angry at others for having some sort of advantage. Sorry, it might not seem just, but there are thousands of these products out there. So, until Blizz either pulls the product or makes it CLEAR for the thousands of people using their game that it isn't allowed it will continue to be used.
It's not a blizzard product because blizzard didn't make it genius. Not to mention just because the keyboard has extra keys just for macros doesn't mean blizzard said you can use macros. Also if blizzard wrote in the EULA that they can ban you for whatever reason they want and you agreed you have no case in court despite anything you want to believe. You might not even get your day in court since they will most likely just throw the case out. As far as I'm concerned 1:1 macros are fine, macros that perform 2+ actions with 1 button press/mouseclick is giving you an unfair advantage. If it's not an unfair advantage then play without macros and see if your game is still as good as it was with macros.
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On December 28 2010 11:09 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 11:01 pwnasaurus wrote:
Yup, and definitely isn't allowed in tourneys, so I wouldn't get used to using them if you ever plan on competing. Was wondering where I've seen that username recently: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179118Probably not going to compete any time soon. Also seems like a "I am terrible legitly so let me cheat" train of thought. It's illegal and you'll hopefully get banned if caught.
this is so golden and awesome hahahahhahaha reminds me of bw on battle net west where everyone constantly hacked but you could pwn the fuck out of any of them easily cuz they sucked at the game and then once you found people who didnt use macro hacks like the folks that play iccup you start getting your ass whooped.
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On December 29 2010 23:19 Ummbeefy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 23:04 chessiecat wrote:
Getting called names is getting a bit old, I've got to admit. Reading shitty threads which you start is getting a bit old, I've got to admit. In two weeks you have posted 37 times. Most of them have been in your own threads. In two weeks you have started 7 threads. They all have been answered multiple times and come with great discussion points such as, Dealing with The Early Ghost in PVT, 4-gate Forge Cannon Push?, Who is the Protoss Hero?, Effective Use of Stalker/Zealot?, Was Brood War as Cheese heavy as SC2?, Multi-Player Unit Tester?. And lest I forget, the best of all. The Fear Of Bronze. Play some games instead of thinking up terrible threads and openly acknowledging that you cheat and cannot advance leagues. This should alleviate the name calling. Frankly your posting is trash.
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE FEAR OF BRONZE HAHAHAHHAHAHAH sorry cheesie but that shit is funny and just made my day. on a more constructive note. have you done any experimentation on blanket storming/ fungal growthing/emping??????
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EPT
