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Okay, so believe it or not as a T player, Banelings aren't my biggest worry. Banelings are annoying sure, but Thors/Marauders tend to beat them, and they don't do much other than bust buildings or cripple ground armies. They need something to follow them up. In my last few Zerg games, I have been fighting players who mass Roach/Hydra and just push forward with HUGE armies. Now, I know in this game I did a lot of things wrong (I top level bronze, so give me a break), but what unit comp should I go for if I know they are going to be using mass Hydra/Roach armies?
I tried for mass marines, which was a STUPID move (double reactors was a bad idea), but would traditional MM + Siege work? Or MMM? I just need some kind of strategy that will work against massive Roach/Hydra. What sucks is that this guy had some BM going on mid game (calling out my next move and then bragging about countering is a DICK move...), and he was a rank 29 silver player, meaning if I beat him I probably would have moved up, but now it'll probably be another 30 games before I get another shot. Ugggghhhhhhh...
So anyway, what's the counter? My replay is posted below, and any help is appreciated. I need to beat this strategy, since it's really annoying when I lose to it.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/120397-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
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Roach is armored unit, so it's best to use anty-armour unit like marader or tank. Also hydras shouldn't be allowed to retreat, as they are good vs mara. I think that's all you need to know now, when you're in bronze.
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I believe marine tank w/ 1 thor does exceptionally well against roach hydra and muta baneling so why not make that your standard?
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Pure marine + medivac actually rapes the shit out of roach/hydra. Anything beats the crap out of roach/hydra as Terran, really. Just improve your macro. You don't need specific unit counters at such a beginner level of play. Add Tanks if Banelings become a problem.
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Well actually pretty much everything from terran ground is good for killing that - marines, marauders, tanks, thors..
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Try maruaders, marines, and tanks. The tanks/marauders will counter the roaches hard and the hydras soft. The marines are there for dps. You could opt to get hellions instead of marines to hard counter the hydras (they are light).
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Tank, maruaders, and dump minerals into Marines.
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yeah, actually, i find most terran ground army compositions fare well against roach hydra. it's not likely your main problem is army composition!
but if you had to add 1 unit to the mix against roach hydra it would probably be the siege tank.. tanks are fantastic against both roach and hydra.
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2base
4gas
3rax (2tech 1reactor)
2fact
how you get to this production rate is all you.
unit composition is
marine marauder tank
with all those tanks you can easily grab your 3rd with a seige line.
get a few thors just incase the zerg tech switches to mutas.
Make sure to get mech +1 attack
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mass tanks, throw in some marauders and the rest in marines... Once the terran has enough tanks going ground is not such a great idea...
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Marine Tank Thor with maybe some Medivacs (mainly used for drops) owns that combo hard. Just be careful of doom drops and Nydus' (Marines are good in preventing those though).
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if they decide not to get mutas, i'd build a hell of a lot of tanks, with marine and/or hellion support. the tanks, spread and sieged correctly, will absolutely rape roach hydra, and marines will take care of anything that gets too close. if you want to be fancy, flanking with blue flame hellions takes hydras down real fast.
you have to be careful though - burrowed roach play can kill your tanks, and a sudden switch to mutas can kill you (which is why i'd prefer marines over, say, marauders/hellions, which actually kill roach/hydra much faster).
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Hydras destroy marine marauder, however, if you watch pro replays you will notice that zergs rarely get hydras with their roaches against terrans, even infantry players; this should set off alarm bells that you're missing something. About one tank will shut down hydra play completely.
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Tanks with SM and Marauders with CC would've been the way to go. You can siege up your Tanks and have your Marauders up front to slow Roaches down while your Tanks blast away.
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On December 27 2010 02:57 TheBeesKnees wrote:
Hydras destroy marine marauder, however, if you watch pro replays you will notice that zergs rarely get hydras with their roaches against terrans, even infantry players; this should set off alarm bells that you're missing something. About one tank will shut down hydra play completely.
Actually marines destroy hydras ^^
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actually if you just macro properly mmm will beat roach/hydra. Unit composition is not your primary issue.
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Hard counter is marauder + blueflame hellions. Throw some marines in there for some extra dps and to survive against incoming mutas (in case the opponent makes a tech switch). It won't be mass zerglings in the next wave because you have hellions to roasty toasty them (unless opponent is desperate). Hard counter to the above is if you face roach, hydra with spine crawlers.
But these are just hard counters and this is RTS
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I think a good exercise for anyone with a "how did I lose post" is to watch their replay without paying any attention to unit composition first. Just look at the (a) army tab and more importantly the (r) resources tab.
Some points:
He was ahead in resource gathered for much of the game (so much so he was floating 2000 minerals and it didn't matter).
At 17:20 when you first hit this hydra army you were concerned about here are the army value counts:
YOURS: 2250 minerals/550 gas/79 supply
HIS: 3375 minerals/1175 gas/108 supply
All this talk about unit composition is silly, he could have had pretty much any ground unit and he would have won that.
If you really want to talk about it-- hydras are always pretty much a terrible choice ZvT for Zerg. Roaches are good against mech, but him going hydras is basically a gift. Lock down the middle with tanks, and expand. If you had matched his army size with that composition, or even tossed a couple tanks, you would have rolled his hydras flat.
The second big battle at the end was even worse off, you also shouldn't have tried banshee harass after he said it and you knew he had hydras. Should have just kept the banshees with your main force instead. But that's all splitting hairs, the problem is as simple as don't attack with a smaller army and keep your macro up.
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You lost long before the main ran out.
It's very easy for terran to expand on steppes of war. Drop the OC down, and plant a few siege tanks on the ridge. Wall off the ramp with some barracks, it's FAR easier than you think.
Oh, and build more SCVs. It's just a good idea.
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Every time i see Roach Hydra i always do a Maruader Blue Hellion. This is pretty easy since i usually go MMTank. Which also Provides the neccessary buildings for Maruader Blue Hellion.
But in General Marine Tank Should easily deal with this.
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If I see roach hydra, just heavy on the tanks, with upgrades (important) attack for tanks, and attack and defense for MASS MARINES. On 2 bases, at least 2 fac and 6 rax with reactors on most if not all. 2/2 or 3/3 infan with medics and a 6-10+ tank line is unbeatable with roach hydra. If he's hydra heavy, make a 3rd fac and reactor it for reactored blue flames.
Don't listen to 95% of the stuff you read on TL. It's all theorycraft. Tanks with good positioning and hopping with upgrades will SHIT all over roach hydra, with a wall of marines just sitting there firing. Learn to run back a bit to dodge a volley and let tanks throw an extra volley or two, then re-engage.
You gotta stay on top of base count vs this, at get a 3rd if you can (should be able to) with +2 armor and scvs ready to repair. Roach hydra DPS is majooooorrrrr. But, as I said, heavy on the tanks, with a reactor marine ball. I go 2 port 1 tech lab 1 reactor for medic upgrade AND just so if I face hydras I can throw out a raven or two. If you keep constant pressure with marine tank medic with upgrades, they can't drone hard, can't expo hard, can't do anything but keep making units. We as terran know if you keep them off 4 bases, and to 3 max, you got a fighting shot to do deadly damage.
TL;DR
Marine tank with upgrades, heavy on the tanks. You always get armory in TvZ anyways, and just don't stop upgrading.
2600T
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Tanks, Marauders and Marines.
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I'd say siege tanks (with siege mode) w/ marauders and thors (if possible)
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MMM + Tank works well against Roach/Hydra.
There may be a better composition but most people go MMM Tank anyways, so just stick with it.
You should go heavier on the Marines, though. You don't really need that many Marauders, if at all.
When you engage, make sure they come to your tanks. Step micro like a beast. Marine + Rauders have more range than the Roaches which should be blocking the Hydras, so just step micro again and again, while they are being hammered by the Siege Tanks.
Usually most of my MM dies though, and I have a bunch of Medivacs left over. Keep this in mind, try not to be too Medivac heavy. For unit ratio... I'd say 24 Marine 6 Marauder 2 Medivac 3 Tank. Just about. The Marauders really are more for just in case if he has banelings, so that you can pull marines back and let Marauders take hits, but more importantly for the Concussive Shells, which will give your Tanks more hits.
Remember, when you step micro. Do NOT step micro with your medivacs! Keep them in a separate control group. If you keep moving around the medivacs won't heal, although you should rape the Hydra/Roach army anyways. Only move the medivacs back once he actually starts to target fire them. And when you move them back move them back as far as possible while still being able to heal. This way they waste the least amount of time turning and moving and can heal the most.
It's great if you can have a lot of Tanks but you don't need that many. And this is for if he goes like a Hydra:Roach ratio of 2:1 around.
Edit: Oh yeah, also keep upgrading Vehicle Weapons + 1 throughout, just like you should be doing whenever you get Tanks. Infantry upgrades are good too ofc, but I'd say priority on the Vehicle Weapons. Those tanks get a beastly +5 (right?) each time you upgrade.
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get battlecruisers to hard counter roaches and hellions + ravens for pdd to hard counter hydras
+ Show Spoiler +
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3 things:
Build and composition:
tank marine medivac is the ideal composition for dealing with T1.5 and T2 ranged units. so your focus should be on getting 2 rax, then tech lab, then factory, then stim or combat shield depending on how early you are expecting to get med, then another rax and a reactor on it when done, then tech lab when your fact is done, then tank and siege, and starport with no addon when you have enough time. Add a tech lab to the starport once you have 3 medivac incase he gets burrow. But, remeber that the hydras cannot escape once burrowed like the roaches, so it is good for you if he tries to burrow. Try to get an ebay for +1 attack, then expo . Scout, and if you see him expo, and lots of drones are popping/there are sunkens coming up, delay the 3rd rax and ebay and get started on a 2nd CC right away. the tank or 2 and rines on the ramp will defend if he suddenly gets aggressive, and you can always make a PF if you are afraid of his army. getting to 4 gas is more important than a 2nd OC, but you'll need to be extra disciplined about building workers since you won't be geting 2x mule. once your minerals start to go out of control, make like 3 fact with reactor and 3 more rax with tech lab, a 2nd ebay and an armory for + vehicle attacks and to enable lvl 2 infantry ups.
econ:
never stop making workers. I know you've heard this before, but you will start to see if you pay attention to the stats that the winner/winning team ALWAYS has the most workers. be sure to get OC at 14 or 15, and keep up with mules. make one gas as OC is producing, and the second just as it finishes. remember that you won't need to start an extra depot when OC is building, because your supply production will be reduced, 'cause you can't make SCVs.
micro:
Siege up first, stim second. Take advantage of high ground when possible. Try to create situations where you entice him to walk by high ground that is covered with tanks, effectively widdling his army down before any real clash (e.g. - expo somewhere where he has an ovi, then put some tanks on a cliff along the attack path, then cancel the expo once his army goes by—with some losses). Because his strat relies on his overwhelming numbers, and because hydras are slow to retreat once they blunder into siege range, this sort of play is huge. Remeber that because of medivacs you can set up tanks on a cliff below his main, then lift rines and a few tanks up the cliff to push his main. the tanks below will be unhittable by lings, and roach hydra too if you keep them back. try to body-block his advance with toward tanks with your marines. the thing about it is, if he tries to focus on rines or tanks, tanks will chew him up while you run your shielded, buff, superfast stimrines around him in circles, or else the insane dps of rines will ruin him if he tries to blitz the tanks. for extra pointz, try grabbing 4 rines in a quick selection box and FFing on a hydra instead of a roach/rinse/repeat. If you are fast you can kill off the damage dealers early and leave the damage-absorbers behind to die a slow but ultimately vain death.
rationale:
I only play terran when I'm randoming in team games, but i certainly have a lot of experience fighting them 1v1 as zerg. To understand why tankrine medivac is the best choice, we must look at the strenghts and weaknesses of hydra roach, and of tankrine.
HR:
Strengths:
1) critical mass. Zerg is going hydraroach not because it is the strongest unit mix in the game. its just not. it has bad range, its slow, and the hydras have crap health. What makes hydraroach nice is that you can open roach with early +1, then start making hydras to cover yourself from air, spend gas, and add a damage-dealer to your mix. Also, unlike most zerg tech compositions, this one is relatively mineral-heavy, and can therefore be executed from 2 bases, and benefit quite a bit from higher saturation, especially in roach count, which is what you want anyway. This allows the zerg to rush to high drone-count while your army is small and you are afraid to pressure because you could be overwhelmed by lings. Then he will push hard with a much bigger army and hope to overwhelm you with sheer quantity of hp/dps on the field, never mind counters and micro. The only way you can stop this is by *not* letting him outmacro you so badly. Scout more, try to say even or 1 base behind him, taking an expo each time he does. drop 1-2 loaded medivacs on isolated bases, then draw back before his slow-ass army arrives. Then, push his while he is out of position. And disciple about making SCVs, and depots: can't say it enough. People on this site will chide me, but I say that SCV and depot are the one thing it's ok to queue. late game I will have as many as 15 SCVs queued on my various command centers, especially if i have suffered SCV losses, just to MAKE SURE that i don't forget. also, whenever you make a depot, if you have like 600+ mins, press B, S, shift-click, to queue another, which the SCV will build immediately after.
Weaknesses:
1) Hydras cost gas, but are not banelings. This means that your rines are not hard-countered. So, love your rines. one of the cheapest things about terran is the mule, which allows you to have outrageous mineral outcome off of fewer bases. your gas remains constant, so this basically only translates into; MORE RINES. So, if you are in a situation where rines are a key part of your play, go OC crazy! once you get an expo up, just drop new CCs all over the place. if they are in contended territory, make a PF, and if not, just make another OC. whenever you take a new base, start sending all the mules to that base so you don't deplete your older bases too fast. map all OCs to the same hotkey, so you can press E and then just shift-click on a row of minerals and drop like 6 mules at a time later in the game. this is especially cheez if you can expo to a golds. your income will go to like 3800. which means; more OCs and more rines! once you have like 6-8 gas, then you can make anything you want and get all the upgrades! (it used to be, in BW, that zerg was played like this, because lings were stronger, hats were needed anyway, and no other race could hope to equal zerg income off fewer bases, nor could they hope to overcome zerg map control enough to outexpo the zerg. Now, terran can do this, simply dumping excess minerals into expoing.)
2) hydras cannot escape. Stimmed rines run faster than them, and tanks outrange them really bad. and they are butt-slow. His gas is his more limited resource; make him waste it by never letting hydras escape.
3) tanks deal bonus to roach, and outrage them 3x. (assuming their range is still 12 as in BW?)... Brutal. upping the damage on tanks will REALL finish the job. forgetting to up damage on rines if he ups armor on roach is very bad, so watch for this.
Tank-rine-medivac
Strengths:
1) Everything can be healed. bring an SCV, or call down mules and put them on auto-repair if you think you have the upper-hand in army already.
2) Medihax are also dropships (wft? and ovis don't even detect anymore!). You can harass and deny new expansions with small rine drops. You can take islands. You can attack his islands. You can see/push up cliffs, spreading your tanks between two different terrain types (always good). you can lift your whole army to safety if you kill all/most of the hydra, and escape a big roach army. On maps like LT, you can even tank the opponent's nat, and he will have no recourse because all his gas will be going to hydras!
3) Tank defense is amazing. If you have even a ~8 rine force, with 1 med and 3 tanks at your main, you can hold your ramp against pretty much anything (if you macro a little just as you push out, you should have this stuff finished by the time he counters even if you took everything when you left. And even if he suicides enough to start to break through, you will definitely live until your army gets back and flanks him.
4) IF he switches to mutas, you are already covered. You have a huge rine army, and a bunch of facts that already have tech labs! and if he gets banes, you might want to start adding rauders but other than that you will be ok, as long as you stim and run near your tanks.
weaknesses: you're slightly less mobile because the tanks have to go into mode. But they are so powerful that it hardly matters, as long as you hit "o" as soon as you see him. either stim or combat shield will be slightly delayed, especially if you are forgetful like me.
Also, really cool trick: pretend to push out. go right up to the edge of the creep, siege up, wait a second, then pull right back. Hopefully, the zerg will make some panic lings, thereby weakening his economy. Later, when you do push, he won't be able to afford as much because he delayed some drones for those panic units!
Protoss variation:
I also use this strat v toss, because stalkers flail against it, and the marines handle immortals no problem. Colossi can catch tanks out of position later on, and vikings might be needed for support (in which case it might be good to get some hellions instead of rines, 'cause rines die so bad to colossi, but that's only an issue late-game. In a team game, it is not uncommon for me to beat 2 protoss armies at once when I push out with 4-5 tanks, 2-3 meds, and 18-24 rines. Pretty sure this is the hardest counter to stalkers in the game. Blink doesn't help: to get it in a timely fashion, he will need to sacrifice too much gas, and tanks usually get a volley or 2 before he's even in blink range. Then stimmed rines mop up shockingly fast. Call down repair-mules after a blink raid for sure: you will probably have a couple tanks on red life.
Since I don't use this for 1v1, I don't follow an exact build. I'm sure there are good exact rine tank openings written down somewhere on the site, feel free to check them for reference. I created mainly to repel big 3 player t1.5-2 pushes in 3v3, usually consisting of stalkers, roaches, and rine-rauder, and so base the number of early rines, expo timing, and the order of a few tech choices based on what they are doing. (the main question is this: many tanks ASAP with combat shield first? stim first and an early medivac with siege mode slightly delayed?)
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mass marines + medivacs beats it easily, add a few marauders if you wanna crush him harder. you dont even need siege tanks, but of course you can get a couple just for the laughs.
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On December 27 2010 02:12 ChickenLips wrote:
Pure marine + medivac actually rapes the shit out of roach/hydra. Anything beats the crap out of roach/hydra as Terran, really. Just improve your macro. You don't need specific unit counters at such a beginner level of play. Add Tanks if Banelings become a problem.
It really depends on who has the bigger army at engagement as there is a critical mass in which Hydras > MM due to the range factor.
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It's not the composition that's the problem. Pretty much everything Terran has beats hydra/roach. The problem is you're getting outmacroed.
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EPT
