[G] Adapting the 11 Overpool Build in each MU. - Page 4

On December 18 2010 01:34 Warrior Madness wrote:
@Darkforce, may I ask how you usually open vs toss on close and cross positions? I still try to get away with a 14 hatch on cross positions (I'll probably experiment with 13 hatch/15 pool for the next week) and I usually open with 14 gas 14 pool on close positions and on 2 player maps like XNC.

On December 18 2010 03:18 jdseemoreglass wrote:
You know, I must have heard about 100 arguments against this build, and after enough debate it seems every single one of them boils down to an assumption about having less minerals or larvae... Which is why I went to the trouble of documenting the precise mineral and larvae differences between each build, so people could see exactly how many minerals they would have compared to another at each point in time.

Intuitively I've never understood how a build that has a similar resource count to another would have more trouble getting the same amount of buildings, units, and gas. The only argument that has made sense to me is the fact you can get a spine at the nat sooner with hatch-first.

I'm not trying to be an ass or close-minded or anything... I just don't understand most of the criticisms being leveled against the build. If you need gas sooner, then get gas sooner? How does it hurt you more with an 11pool than a 14pool to get gas?

Because they assume they have less minerals or larvae... That is always the only answer possible.

The problem is I am battling against years of firmly cemented convictions that earlier pools sacrifice too much economy. And some convictions are nearly impossible to break.

On December 18 2010 05:44 mothergoose729 wrote:


I use this build a lot and I am a huge fan. In my experimentation with it, there are somethings that are very awkward about it. For instance, you are supposed to plan to be supply blocked at 11 and 18. In the econ/mass ling style this is just fine, because you can save up for a pool at 11 and a hatchery at 18, and everything works out just great. When you want to go fast roaches, this build just feels awkward, but I think it might be just as well off if not better then a traditional pool styles. So far with a build order I am experimenting with now, I am able to get 8 roaches at the 5 minute mark and still expand. I can go quick lair from that too. Later today I am going to try a 14 pool early gas build instead, and try and compare the two.

On December 18 2010 04:16 DarKFoRcE wrote:

I thought you agreed in the other thread that you sacrifice some eco early on for an earlier inject. Now youre trying to make it look like 11 pool is never behind in eco (lol). And no, im not going to make a shiny graph for you to prove it. I mean, why dont we get a 6 pool for the super fast queen if there is no economic sacrifice?!

I will not comment on the meaning or implications of this data -- I will simply allow you to analyze it and form your own conclusions regarding the relative merits and economic efficiency of each build.
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 18 2010 10:35 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:

BTW: i prefer hatch first, because it "feels" more economic to me and is more forgiving in case you sloppy inject (because of 2cnd hatch) ;-).

On December 18 2010 11:37 Mephs wrote:
I gave this thread some BM last time but I did give this some trial and error on ladder off and on.

So instead of trashing it furthur, I'm going to be constructive about this:

I really, really do not feel as though this is effective. I was 2200 diamond when I BM'd it, now 2500. However, I still have never won a game BECAUSE of it.

ZvZ: absolutely not. Its an awful thing to do, because fast expanding when your opponent goes early roach, and all you have are slowlings by the time his push comes out = absolute fail. You will not get 100 gas off one geyser using your setup. He can also freely expand since you have slowlings meaning he'll get ahead of you in economy fairly quickly. Having a queen out for 1 faster inject means nothing if you can't put that extra larva to use. In fact, you lose the auto generated larva benefits of a more standard opening in ZVZ like 14 pool/gas (depending on sling or roach open).

ZvT: DEFINITELY NOT. Almost every terran opens 2 rax, or some kind of hellion harass. All I can say is, the later you expand, the worse off you are against this matchup. Reason being, that if you hatch on 18 your creep at your natural will NEVER be up in time for the push to drop a spine down. The reason we go 14 hatch almost every game against TVZ is for the creep to defend both your natural and main, and also for the earlier auto larva.

So think of it this way. You get a queen out 2 supply sooner with 11overpool since your economy is raped by the fact you pooled so early. But its just 1 queen. With 14 hatch, you'll get that extra larva inject you didn't get with the 1 queen, but now you have TWO QUEENS INJECTING MUCH FASTER.

So logically 1 extra inject on 1 hatch < 2 sooner injects on 2 hatch. So your larva production is much better with 14 hatch than 11 overpool. And I am sorry to tell you this, but getting 6 lings out to defend your 18 hatch will fail when they get there with 4 hellions and your hatch just popped. Also they are slowlings too, so they are a joke to kill with hells. You won't have a spine to defend that expansion, and if you aren't droning up at it, (and day9 went over this thoroughly) that expansion is a NET LOSS until you can saturate it decently and pay back the costs in lost mining time. So you can't put drones at your natural until you have one of two things: ling speed, or 1-2 spines + lings to defend it.

And you can't do that with such a late hatch. So this build is extremely vulnerable to bunker play, hellion play, early marines (if your opponent doesn't fail at micro).

ZvP: Only time thsi build has any merit, because the point is valid that earlier lings = preventing pylon blocking. GREAT. I actually would emphasize that this isn't a bad idea, but neither is opening 7 pool against protoss as shown in a recent ZvP against HuK. You can actually use that 7 pool to force the protoss to lock himself to one base, and overcompensate to not get wtfpwned by early ling rush. And then transition smoothly into a standard build. I forget what the zerg player's name was, but it was on last night's daily. Excellent example of why early lings is good in ZvP, but I'd much rather use that 7 pool transition build than 11 overpool. It forces a much more early overreaction whereas 11 overpool both hurts your economy and doesn't get anything dangerous out at a timing window that's worth it. 7 pool does have a very real danger to it to the protoss player.

4) Your opponent went pool first and has no expansion in sight.
This is the trickiest scenario to engage. You must keep scouting. See if he is going speedlings or roach push, or if he plans on expanding. The trouble is the opponent will often get two lings and kill your scouting drone before revealing his plan. You should have your own pair of lings to continue scouting. Be persistent about it; you cannot play this in the dark.
Whether or not you decide to get your expo up is up to you. I will say there is a degree of risk in it, but the rewards can be significant if your opponent either doesn't attack or the attack fails. I usually add my second overlord and pump drones while waiting for more info. It is key to see if he is going roaches or not.

If you have lost with this build recently or have had trouble with a particular strategy and want help, please post a detailed explanation and a replay of the game so we can help solve the problem and further adapt the build.