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On December 18 2010 13:16 Kamikiri wrote:
Hello, I very much like this build for ZvP as in ZvP i feel it is the strongest build currently (imo) but in ZvT i still do the 14 hatch 15 pool on every map, including steppes and do just fine with it.
I can hold off a 2 rax marine scv all-in with 14 hatch 15 pool most of the time so i do not do this build in zvt, but if players do not have the micro or cant hold off a 2 rax marine scv push than this build is great for them.
May I ask what your ranking is? I don't think my micro is very bad, and yet I've lost 8 games in a row trying to defend hatch-first against 2rax all-in on steppes...
Maybe take a look at these reps and see if either I am doing something wrong or your opponents are doing something wrong.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176945
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On December 18 2010 13:04 genopath wrote:@jdseemoreglass Please look at this replay its a 3-4 Roach Rush vs 11 pool. This is one of the scenarios I believe you do not cover in your OP. Long story short, I've lost the match. Clearly my ling scout missed the roaches on the way to my base but that would have given me 24 extra seconds in which I don't think I could have done much given the larva available. My gas even went down a little later than what your OP proposes for ZvZ. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174740.jpg)
Hi...
If you look at the OP, I describe how to respond based upon your scouting. Unfortunately, you blindly put an expansion down before you knew what your opponent was doing. I would recommend you keep a drone in his base to see what he is doing and then follow the steps in the OP based on what you see.
I noted that in the scenario where your opponent goes pool-first and has no expansion, you need to scout if he is going for an aggressive speedling or roach opening and respond accordingly. Getting an expansion against a one-base zerg is very risky, especially in close positions, and shouldn't be attempted unless you are very confident in your defense.
Hope this helps your future games.
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On December 18 2010 11:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 10:35 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
BTW: i prefer hatch first, because it "feels" more economic to me and is more forgiving in case you sloppy inject (because of 2cnd hatch) ;-).
lol EVERYONE prefers hatch first... I would do it every game if it was viable. The point is that it's not.
i 10/11 hatch 10..13 pool. this fends of early pressure more easy, even if it sacrifices some eco .. works for me, maybe because me and my opponents suck, so anyway economy is hit by mistakes to the left and right. Loosing some early larvae is not a big issue compared to that :-)
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On December 18 2010 10:19 genopath wrote:
@Darkforce, I've read your comments on why this build has problems vs 1 stalk harass and 2rax terran,but how would you rate this build in ZvZ?
Hard to say. If your opponent goes Hatch first, and the distance is rather short, and you scout it in time so you can save larvae for when the pool finishes, i can see the build being pretty effective.
Against 1 base play, i would say it is generally a bit behind, as it is rather difficult to get up an early expansion after one players opened 14g 14p (again depending on maps though). But then again, i already see a certain person demanding proof now, but im not going to invest countless hours into proving a person on the internet wrong, as this seems like a massive waste of time :p
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I have a question, slightly off topic, for the op:
If in every thread made about the 11 overpool 18 hatchery says "it's only slightly behind the standard 14 hatch/15 pool", what is the reason for using this slightly less economic build?
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On December 18 2010 21:47 Jeffbelittle wrote:
I have a question, slightly off topic, for the op:
If in every thread made about the 11 overpool 18 hatchery says "it's only slightly behind the standard 14 hatch/15 pool", what is the reason for using this slightly less economic build?
much greater flexibility against very early cheesey shenanigans that you can't know about until well after your scouting drone arrives.
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I think the question should be is 11pool-18hatch better than 14pool-hatch after you kill the pylon or engineering bay blocking your expo build, not is the 11pool-18hatch better than 14hatch-14pool build. Because lets be really honest that is what the 14hatch-14pool turns into if there is any delay in the hatch going down. Granted so does the 11p18h but you will see 2 lings a lot sooner to clear the natural expansion if there is something blocking it.
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On December 18 2010 21:47 Jeffbelittle wrote:
I have a question, slightly off topic, for the op:
If in every thread made about the 11 overpool 18 hatchery says "it's only slightly behind the standard 14 hatch/15 pool", what is the reason for using this slightly less economic build?
14 Hatch is susceptible to hatch blocking with a unit or ebay or pylon, thereby forcing you to get a very late pool anyway.
14 Hatch is susceptible to many forms of early pressure, including speedling all-ins, 2gate-zealots, and 2-rax marine-scv all ins.
14 Hatch does not have the flexibility of going all-in and putting early pressure if you scout your opponent going for a risky, low-unit opening (like 14 Hatch  ).
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Thanks! Taking that into consideration I'm going to play around with it more.
Know any reason we don't see this getting tossed around by Nestea, idra, fruitdealer, etc?
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On December 19 2010 03:52 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Thanks! Taking that into consideration I'm going to play around with it more.
Know any reason we don't see this getting tossed around by Nestea, idra, fruitdealer, etc?
Because if you're confident enough that you can deal with anything that gets thrown at you early if you hatch-first, you absolutely should.
Edit: necessary insertion
If you're confident you can deal with anything that gets thrown at you early, *and* you never want to one-base all-in because you believe you will win a much higher percentage of the time by playing a long macro game, then you should always hatch first. 
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And we should not forget about the possibility that just maybe this build is not as good as some people try to make it look. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong, but so far no replay has been posted where people who actually play well use this build successfully.
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On December 18 2010 13:04 genopath wrote:@jdseemoreglass Please look at this replay its a 3-4 Roach Rush vs 11 pool. This is one of the scenarios I believe you do not cover in your OP. Long story short, I've lost the match. Clearly my ling scout missed the roaches on the way to my base but that would have given me 24 extra seconds in which I don't think I could have done much given the larva available. My gas even went down a little later than what your OP proposes for ZvZ.
In addition to what JD said, I wanted to note that you would have also died if your opponent didn't go Roaches but instead went Zerglings.
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I tried your build on the ladder a few times.
Iam a Middle-High Platinum Zerg and i keep getting wins.
I can hardly be cheesed and can make a perfect macro game out of this build.
Maybe its not the best build for Tournies but i think its really useful for laddering in High Plat - Middle Dia.
Thanks for this great build
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I've used 11 Overpool before. Thanks, I needed to know what to scout to counter.
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On December 19 2010 07:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:
And we should not forget about the possibility that just maybe this build is not as good as some people try to make it look. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong, but so far no replay has been posted where people who actually play well use this build successfully.
I actually don't think the build is that good, but why don't you try it in some practice game and then post the replays here? I mean, you have nothing to lose, and if it turns out to be a good build, you can start using it.
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I've been having a great deal of difficulty with this build. In an ideal world you could follow it step by step unharassed by your opponent before transitioning into a high tech more powerful army. I know the emphasis of this build is on flexibility but it seems like I just can't afford to lose any drones or make any buildings, all I can do is react with more units or ditch the expand for some heavy 1 Base play and expand when I attack later on.
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EPT
