My previous thread was a discussion regarding whether the 11 Overpool build was viable as a standard opening in all match-ups. After much testing and practice I have concluded that it is certainly viable. Whether or not it is the best option in each circumstance is up to you to decide.
The purpose of this thread is to provide a guide for the different variations I have begun using in different scenarios. In my mind, the true power of this build is in it's flexibility and adaptability. However, without knowing how to adapt and why, the value of this build is lost.
This thread is geared toward players who aren't high-diamond, who might have trouble knowing how to respond and adapt to their opponents play in every circumstance. I want to give an account of my thought-process going into each game with this build. Note: The current replays are a little out-dated and do not perfectly reflect the strategy described, but they are close enough to be useful. As I encounter these builds more often on the ladder I will update the OP with reps.
I want this thread to be a continual work in progress. If you have any suggestions or need anything added, please let me know. If you have lost with this build recently or have had trouble with a particular strategy and want help, please post a detailed explanation and a replay of the game so we can help solve the problem and further adapt the build.
Please don't make claims without having some evidence to back it up. Also, hearsay and arguments from authority are not evidence.
ZvZ 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 11 Pool 14 Gas 15 Queen 17 Zergling 18 Overlord
STOP! What do you scout?
1) Opponent went 6 or 7 pool and is building lings. This is an auto-win if played correctly. Begin saving larvae for lings. Once lings pop use them + drones + queen to clean up the attack. 2) Opponent went hatch then pool. This is also pretty much an auto-win. Drop a hatch here at 18 and get your third overlord. Mine gas until you reach 100, then get speed and remove drones from gas. You will need all of your drones on minerals in order to support constant ling production. Rally both hatches to enemy and pump 100% lings with constant injections. I haven't seen one person defend against this on the ladder. I am thinking it may theoretically be possible to defend on the map Jungle Basin if the Zerg can rush to roaches and quickly block the ramp, but I can't be sure because I haven't seen it happen. 3) Your opponent went pool first and is making a hatch. Drop a hatch at 18 here. Opponent's build will typically transition into either heavy speedling pressure, or a more macro-based game with roaches to defend. If the opponent went gas before pool, it is likely he is getting fast metabolic boost and is going for ling play. Check for the pool movement to be sure speed is upgrading. Then try and match him in ling production. If he is being very aggressive, drop a baneling nest. If you don't see speed upgrading, or you see a roach warren, get a roach warren yourself. Again, try to match your opponents production so that you can keep even with macro and also not die . These games are always about finding the balance between unit and drone production. If there is a significant discrepancy in units between players, an attack can end the game. So keep scouting. 4) Your opponent went pool first and has no expansion in sight. This is the trickiest scenario to engage. You must keep scouting. See if he is going speedlings or roach push, or if he plans on expanding. The trouble is the opponent will often get two lings and kill your scouting drone before revealing his plan. You should have your own pair of lings to continue scouting. Be persistent about it; you cannot play this in the dark. Whether or not you decide to get your expo up is up to you. I will say there is a degree of risk in it, but the rewards can be significant if your opponent either doesn't attack or the attack fails. I usually add my second overlord and pump drones while waiting for more info. It is key to see if he is going roaches or not. You don't want to waste your gas on speed and have 7 roaches coming at you.
In this match-up, you should have a single-minded goal early on of determining whether the build is 2rax or not. That is the priority over anything else. Get a drone into his base quickly before he can wall-off. Key things to look for: No gas. Most Terran builds will get gas when the barracks is around halfway done, or slightly later. (Note: This isn't foolproof, as some high-level Terran's may get gas to throw you off your guard, and then transition into a sudden attack. However, this will of course diminish the strength and speed of the push.) A second barracks. (DUH!) An oddly placed barracks, for example at the bottom of the ramp. Also, be wary of a potential hidden maka-rax.
1) Your opponent is not going 2rax. Drop your hatch at 18. Add an extractor and work toward ling speed. Get two zerglings to scout, then keep producing drones. From here the strategy is up to you, and you can play the standard ZvT match-up. 2) Your opponent is going 2rax. Start producing lings. Once you have around 6 lings, drop your expansion. Continue scouting. If you see your opponent massing marines and pulling scv's, use all your larvae inject on lings. Micro is key to this engagement. If you think you have enough lings to win outright, then attack. Otherwise, wait for injection-lings to pop before engaging. If you see your opponent building a bunker outside your nat, pull drones and lings and attack immediately. If you see he is going all in by pulling tons of scv's then pull your own drones as well and attack as one group of drone/zergling. Try to micro your zerglings to get behind the marines. They are the real damage dealers, and this will prevent them from stutter-stepping backwards. "But won't I be behind in economy?" Having his workers running around the map instead of mining is a significant hit to your opponent. If you can kill his marines and scv's with just lings and lose no drones of your own, your opponent will be in terrible shape. You should have no trouble cleaning up his attack with the number of lings you have. "But what if he doesn't attack?" Drop a spine as soon as creep is available. Then add gas and make drones. Don't worry, you won't be that far behind because you used 3 larvae on lings instead of 1. Two drones shouldn't cost you the game. You will easily surpass Terran in workers with queen injections. Use the lings as map control/scouting and try to deny his expansion. If your opponent is expanding too quickly and has only a few marines, just go ****ing kill him. Get banelings if you need to... but it shouldn't be too hard to punish a FE terran with just marines if you have the production capacity of two hatches and two queens with units already out.
ZvP 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 11 Pool 16 Queen 18 Patrol drone at bottom of ramp
STOP! What do you scout?
1) Two gateways. Get lings and a spine to defend. If necessary, add gas and a roach warren. Don't expand until you feel safe enough to do so. 2) A gateway and a cyber core. Drop your hatch here. Keep scouting. For gateway pressure, get lings/roaches/spines at natural. Keep your units by your natural to prevent FF on ramp. For stargate play, add a third queen and a couple spines at expo. Use your first 100 gas for lair instead of speed and tech to hydras. 3) A forge You can safely expand here if you play correctly. Keep patrolling drone to prevent your ramp from getting blocked, as this will cost you the game in most cases. Keep an overlord over your expansion and scout thoroughly for any hidden pylons. If your opponent is using the forge to FE, you have several options: All-in bust the front, nydus in the main, or drone hard and tech to mutas. 4) Nothing... my opponents base is empty. OMG LOOK HE HAS ZEALOTS IN YOUR MINERAL LINE!
Hatch then pool being auto-win for the 11 Overpool build ??? Following your explanation, by the time you have your ling speed they will have the (slight) economic advantage and will AT LEAST be able to match you in lings (heck, if you waited for ling speed they can have banelings).
The real advantage you have are those 6-8 lings that come really early. I usually all-in when using 11 overpool and see the early hatch on small maps.
ZvZ: Your plan for the two most likely scenarios is .... strange to say the least:
vs Hatch first: its probably more viable to immidiately save larvae and build lings once the pool is done (depends on distance) and do damage to his eco before his lings spawn. Your suggestion is just a speedling allin which can work if the opponent is too greedy and/or doesnt scout correctly, but can be rather easily fended off with queens blocking the ramp at first, 1-2 spine crawlers and then added roaches.
vs Pool no expansion: You are not wasting gas on speed when the opponent is going for some kind of strange early roach rush, as speedling counter roaches in small numbers. Furthermore, there is no mention of the popular ling baneling build, which kinda makes this section useless.
ZvT: 1) Your opponent is not going 2rax.
Erm, so, how do you counter fast hellions? you get your gas super late, so ling speed wont be there in time, are you getting roaches then? Are the Roaches even there in time with your BO?
On the 2 rax section: i think you are overly optismistic here, especially on how easily you can kill an early expansion after 2 rax pressure, as any good terran will put down a sufficient number of bunkers and/or make a wall with his raxes.
Also, i think you underestimate your economic hit
ZvP:
vs 1 gate + core: fast teching to lair without speed just outright dies to to 1 gas 4 gate, and probably dies to pretty much any other 4 gate aswell, as you wont have sufficient hydra numbers out in time. And no, i dont believe your eco is that much better because of your great build that it works.
Unfortunately, the followups you have presented are not very solid.
IMO, you should really try to put "scout" in the build order -- when you do it affects both the timings of the build, and whether you can see things before a decision point.
11overpool pretty much fails against the following builds:
1) 2rax opening from terran 11overpool is good for a fast larva injection for a great economy. against 2rax you will often have to use these larva agaisnt early agression. You won't have any creep and of course no spine crawler. Sure you might hold but you are way behind then
2) fast stalker BO from protoss Pretty much the same. 2-3 fast harass stalkers are common these days and without creep or a spine crawler you will have to produce a lot of lings which negates the strength of the 11overpool BO
After playing with this build a bit in each matchup, I only find it effective in ZvP. This is mainly because 14 hatch in that matchup is suicide, and those damn pylons blocking my expansion piss me off.
In ZvT I always 14 hatch (except on Steppes, but I downvote that map) and it's pretty safe from everything as long as you can get down that spine crawler as soon as the hatch finishes.
In ZvZ I 14 gas 14 pool sling/baneling. I feel like this is the best build for this matchup excluding a few positions on some maps where hatch first would be viable. Also I believe 14 gas 14 pool would beat the 11 pool build, especially if they spend 300 minerals on that hatchery or even just get more than 15 drones.
On December 14 2010 08:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: sigh...
Your previous thread was filled with noobs to the brink both completely flaming the BO and praising it. Now you've got fucking darkforce in here giving you a lengthy reply on stuff you should work on. If I was in your position I would be rejoiced like no other to have a pro's input on my thoughts.
darkforce is the highest caliber player that reads the strategy forums and you reply with a 'sigh'. Give me a fucking break and him some respect.
mid-diamond player here. I tried this BO on ladder. Ended up with a 6 loose-streak. Now i understand why: ""the true power of this build is in it's flexibility and adaptability. However, without knowing how to adapt and why, the value of this build is lost."" I guess that i'm so used to the standart that I have lost my "feeling of the game rythm". So I guess that I should: a) memorize what and when i must build depending on the different things that I scout. or b) Keep playing standart.
If this BO is really so good then in the long-run I should benefit of learning and practicing this BO. But from the other side - perhaps I should keep playing standart just to get the "feeling of the game rythm" and only THEN start playing with this BO.
ohh lol. i don't even know/remeber what i just wrote. nor i do care :D
On December 14 2010 08:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: sigh...
Your previous thread was filled with noobs to the brink both completely flaming the BO and praising it. Now you've got fucking darkforce in here giving you a lengthy reply on stuff you should work on. If I was in your position I would be rejoiced like no other to have a pro's input on my thoughts.
darkforce is the highest caliber player that reads the strategy forums and you reply with a 'sigh'. Give me a fucking break and him some respect.
Is he a pro? I'm sorry, I never heard of him. From my point of view, his post sounded no different than any of the others. For example, arguing against my suggestion to get a lair and skip speed against 4gate builds when I actually suggested getting lings/roaches/spines. But I don't know, maybe it is a language barrier or something...
I know TL has a major problem these days with what zatic called the "bandwagon effect," where a pro says something and everyone in the thread agrees and attacks anyone who disagrees until the entire forum has a single mindset. You can see this clearly with the ret/IdrA debate which defies explanation.
I remember even putting in the OP that I wanted people to provide some type of evidence and I get the inevitable "this build fails to 2rax" post. I'm really losing faith in this community day by day.
On December 14 2010 08:36 jdseemoreglass wrote: Is he a pro? I'm sorry, I never heard of him. From my point of view, his post sounded no different than any of the others. For example, arguing against my suggestion to get a lair and skip speed against 4gate builds when I actually suggested getting lings/roaches/spines. But I don't know, maybe it is a language barrier or something...
I know TL has a major problem these days with what zatic called the "bandwagon effect," where a pro says something and everyone in the thread agrees and attacks anyone who disagrees until the entire forum has a single mindset. You can see this clearly with the ret/IdrA debate which defies explanation.
I remember even putting in the OP that I wanted people to provide some type of evidence and I get the inevitable "this build fails to 2rax" post. I'm really losing faith in this community day by day.
I think there is a real difference between people following a general statement thrown out by a high-caliber player (e.g. hatch first required to stop X), and a high-caliber player providing a specific and thorough criticism of your post directly.
As such, despite the fact that I think you have put in a lot of great effort working and defending your build (i was there from page 1 man!!), I don't understand the above response.
Of course not knowing who he is is totally forgivable, but not considering his experience without specific evidence seems foolish.
On December 14 2010 08:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: sigh...
It's frustrating to get hearsay when you ask for evidence, but realize that the pros aren't doing your build as their standard so they're not going to have a ton of replays just sitting around of what failed/worked for it.
I'm curious as to how your build holds off 10 gate / fast zealot pressure. This is something that a fast pool should be strong against.
Im not sure if i missread something or whether you editted your post afterwards, but how in gods name can you scout whether your opponent is going for what you call "gateway pressure" or a stargate? Of course, when you know what your opponent will do within the next minutes it is easy to counter, but any decent protoss will deny this information. Furthermore, if your opponent scouts you getting a late gas, he will pressure with his first stalker, whats your plan to defend against this?
The thing is, you cant just have such different plans depending on what your opponent will do in the future, as it is not possible to know what will come.
On December 14 2010 06:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: vs Hatch first: its probably more viable to immidiately save larvae and build lings once the pool is done (depends on distance) and do damage to his eco before his lings spawn. Your suggestion is just a speedling allin which can work if the opponent is too greedy and/or doesnt scout correctly, but can be rather easily fended off with queens blocking the ramp at first, 1-2 spine crawlers and then added roaches.
In my experience the first few lings produced will reach the opponent just in time for his own lings to finish. The real advantage in my opinion is the earlier queen inject and faster zergling speed. Also, I don't quite see what is stopping you from getting lings once the pool is done. In the replays I posted I pumped lings pretty consistently and I don't think my opponents were particularly greedy. Also, I don't quite see how queens on the ramp will defend against speedling all-in. Either the hatch will die putting the opponent severely behind, or the lings will be able to attack and kill the queens without taking much loss. It is quite possible my opponents had no idea what they were doing and defended terribly. Without actual evidence I can't really reach a conclusion on the viability of defending this attack.
there is no mention of the popular ling baneling build, which kinda makes this section useless.
When I mentioned getting a baneling nest after scouting the opponents aggressive ling play, I was referring to baneling-type plays.
1) Your opponent is not going 2rax.
Erm, so, how do you counter fast hellions? you get your gas super late, so ling speed wont be there in time, are you getting roaches then? Are the Roaches even there in time with your BO?
Is the gas super late? I wasn't aware of that. It seems like the timing would be pretty close to any other standard build, for example IdrA's MLG BO vTerran. 14 Hatch 14 Pool 16 Gas vs. 11Pool 16/18 Hatch 17 Gas doesn't seem like there would be that much of a delay between the two. Without actual evidence I can't really reach a conclusion on how late gas is.
On the 2 rax section: i think you are overly optismistic here, especially on how easily you can kill an early expansion after 2 rax pressure, as any good terran will put down a sufficient number of bunkers and/or make a wall with his raxes.
I am having trouble visualizing how the terran can afford a command center, several barracks, marines, and bunkers before the zerg can produce lings and banelings. Without actual evidence I can't really reach a conclusion regarding how quickly terran can bunker in an expansion.
vs 1 gate + core: fast teching to lair without speed just outright dies to to 1 gas 4 gate, and probably dies to pretty much any other 4 gate aswell, as you wont have sufficient hydra numbers out in time. And no, i dont believe your eco is that much better because of your great build that it works.
This is just a misunderstanding. Against a gateway build I recommended ling/roach/spines, and against a stargate build I recommended the faster lair and hydras.
On December 14 2010 06:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: vs Hatch first: its probably more viable to immidiately save larvae and build lings once the pool is done (depends on distance) and do damage to his eco before his lings spawn. Your suggestion is just a speedling allin which can work if the opponent is too greedy and/or doesnt scout correctly, but can be rather easily fended off with queens blocking the ramp at first, 1-2 spine crawlers and then added roaches.
In my experience the first few lings produced will reach the opponent just in time for his own lings to finish. The real advantage in my opinion is the earlier queen inject and faster zergling speed. Also, I don't quite see what is stopping you from getting lings once the pool is done. In the replays I posted I pumped lings pretty consistently and I don't think my opponents were particularly greedy. Also, I don't quite see how queens on the ramp will defend against speedling all-in. Either the hatch will die putting the opponent severely behind, or the lings will be able to attack and kill the queens without taking much loss. It is quite possible my opponents had no idea what they were doing and defended terribly. Without actual evidence I can't really reach a conclusion on the viability of defending this attack.
Congratulations on the wins in the OP, but the timings on your replays could easily have been any other BO in the Zerg playbook. Plus your opponents on the second replay did make game-losing mistakes. In the second game he could have started getting speed at 4:30 (at which point you should be scouting your opponent to see if you should take guys off gas to pump just lings or keep them in there). At 5:00 he saw your lings leaving your base but waited a long time to make lings of his own (and supply blocked himself)! Plus note he had 4 more drones than you. 8 lings at any point in those battles would have turned the tide around (even though I believe he could have won even without them). In the first game he had 6 more drones than you (AND had no forward overlord to see your lings coming). Even though he was getting hammered and had no tech going, he never took guys off gas! This doesn't even come CLOSE to being enough for you to be able to say "This is also pretty much an auto-win.".
I know TL has a major problem these days with what zatic called the "bandwagon effect," where a pro says something and everyone in the thread agrees and attacks anyone who disagrees until the entire forum has a single mindset.
I totally agree, why else would people disagree with you?
The obvious weakness is your weak economy early on which will slow down your expansion and leave you vulnerable to Hellions and Stalkers. To fight this you need either quick Speedlings or Roaches (only vs Hellions) off one base which will further slow down your expansion, all in all resulting in a weaker economy than if you'd gone with a normal 14 Pool.
I'll run it through in YABOT tomorrow to show you some solid data.
Erg. That following up by Terran into his 2 Rax timing was kinda meh. You can get a tank out much faster off even a all-inish 2 Rax Expand. You just 2 base ling/bling him to death.
I guess that defense of the 2 Rax was okay since you had lings out but to be honest, pulling all your drones doesn't really illustrate that your build validly holds off a 2 Rax better than 14/15. Maybe it does it better on Steppes, I'm not really sure but if the Terran was a touch better and not so FotM, you would have been in trouble.
Additionally, I could have straight Teched to a 2 port banshee all-in instead of expoing because your econ was down the toilet. ^_^
So I did some testing because I was curious about the gas timings...
IdrA's MLG build vs Terran reaches 100 gas around the 4:20 mark. The 11 Overpool 18 Hatch build reaches 100 gas around the 4:32 mark. The fastest I could build a hellion with a standard opening (gas during barracks) was 4:54.
Interpret this how you will. If anyone would like the evidence I can provide replays.
Also, in regard to the other statements, I would love to practice this build against different strategies with a practice partner. If any diamond players are interested, send me a PM. Then we can reach some evidence regarding the builds viability against 2rax plays, stalker rushes, etc. Of course the evidence will be easy to reject since we aren't code S, but I am at least curious to see the results.
On December 14 2010 09:58 Antisocialmunky wrote: Erg. That following up by Terran into his 2 Rax timing was kinda meh. You can get a tank out much faster off even a all-inish 2 Rax Expand. You just 2 base ling/bling him to death.
I guess that defense of the 2 Rax was okay since you had lings out but to be honest, pulling all your drones doesn't really illustrate that your build validly holds off a 2 Rax better than 14/15. Maybe it does it better on Steppes, I'm not really sure but if the Terran was a touch better and not so FotM, you would have been in trouble.
Additionally, I could have straight Teched to a 2 port banshee all-in instead of expoing because your econ was down the toilet. ^_^
Well this is the first game I've encountered with a 2rax play. Unless people are willing to put in some effort and post their own games or practice with me, then we will have no choice but to be content with the data we have.
On December 14 2010 10:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: So I did some testing because I was curious about the gas timings...
IdrA's MLG build vs Terran reaches 100 gas around the 4:20 mark. The 11 Overpool 18 Hatch build reaches 100 gas around the 4:32 mark. The fastest I could build a hellion with a standard opening (gas during barracks) was 4:54.
Interpret this how you will. If anyone would like the evidence I can provide replays.
Also, in regard to the other statements, I would love to practice this build against different strategies with a practice partner. If any diamond players are interested, send me a PM. Then we can reach some evidence regarding the builds viability against 2rax plays, stalker rushes, etc. Of course the evidence will be easy to reject since we aren't code S, but I am at least curious to see the results.
idra also gets gas late. the thing is, against hellions he can plant a spine crawler at the natural way earlier than you can, as he gets the hatchery, and thus creep, faster (i play it this way too).
On December 14 2010 09:53 ZerG~LegenD wrote: The obvious weakness is your weak economy early on which will slow down your expansion and leave you vulnerable to Hellions and Stalkers. To fight this you need either quick Speedlings or Roaches (only vs Hellions) off one base which will further slow down your expansion, all in all resulting in a weaker economy than if you'd gone with a normal 14 Pool.
I'll run it through in YABOT tomorrow to show you some solid data.
You're worried about economy... so you choose a late pool which is stuck with fewer drones overall?!?!
On December 14 2010 06:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: vs Hatch first: its probably more viable to immidiately save larvae and build lings once the pool is done (depends on distance) and do damage to his eco before his lings spawn. Your suggestion is just a speedling allin which can work if the opponent is too greedy and/or doesnt scout correctly, but can be rather easily fended off with queens blocking the ramp at first, 1-2 spine crawlers and then added roaches.
In my experience the first few lings produced will reach the opponent just in time for his own lings to finish. The real advantage in my opinion is the earlier queen inject and faster zergling speed. Also, I don't quite see what is stopping you from getting lings once the pool is done. In the replays I posted I pumped lings pretty consistently and I don't think my opponents were particularly greedy. Also, I don't quite see how queens on the ramp will defend against speedling all-in. Either the hatch will die putting the opponent severely behind, or the lings will be able to attack and kill the queens without taking much loss. It is quite possible my opponents had no idea what they were doing and defended terribly. Without actual evidence I can't really reach a conclusion on the viability of defending this attack.
Queen block is because there should be 1/2 spine crawlers placed in the nat. Then you dance your lings around while blocking the ramp thus he has to continually change between attacking the queens/spine/zerglings and with good micro the defender can fend it off or delay long enough to get out banes/roaches to deal with it.
Some of the issues I think people are having with the way you are arguing is because you base a lot of the argument from experience but it's rather hard for a non-pro to use experience as a basis for an argument.
On December 14 2010 09:58 Antisocialmunky wrote: Erg. That following up by Terran into his 2 Rax timing was kinda meh. You can get a tank out much faster off even a all-inish 2 Rax Expand. You just 2 base ling/bling him to death.
I guess that defense of the 2 Rax was okay since you had lings out but to be honest, pulling all your drones doesn't really illustrate that your build validly holds off a 2 Rax better than 14/15. Maybe it does it better on Steppes, I'm not really sure but if the Terran was a touch better and not so FotM, you would have been in trouble.
Additionally, I could have straight Teched to a 2 port banshee all-in instead of expoing because your econ was down the toilet. ^_^
Well this is the first game I've encountered with a 2rax play. Unless people are willing to put in some effort and post their own games or practice with me, then we will have no choice but to be content with the data we have.
Here are the reps (sadly they are all pre patch now). Some of the opponents are lower than me but some are higher:
The last repay is the most recent one, it features killing the first overlord xD and later some nice HSMs.
2 Rax FEs from about 2 months ago. Just imagine that every Raven is 2 Tanks and about 1/3rd of the marine count is half the number of marauders. No Kyrix style 2 base bust but those aren't that game breaking if you get tanks and enough buildings.
The important timings for the 2 Rax are 4-5 min for the initial poke/SCV all-in and 8-11 min for either 2 separate pushes or a single massive push. Most people aren't as good at marine micro as KME but uber micro tricks shouldn't be factored into build discussions.
On December 14 2010 09:58 Antisocialmunky wrote: Erg. That following up by Terran into his 2 Rax timing was kinda meh. You can get a tank out much faster off even a all-inish 2 Rax Expand. You just 2 base ling/bling him to death.
I guess that defense of the 2 Rax was okay since you had lings out but to be honest, pulling all your drones doesn't really illustrate that your build validly holds off a 2 Rax better than 14/15. Maybe it does it better on Steppes, I'm not really sure but if the Terran was a touch better and not so FotM, you would have been in trouble.
Additionally, I could have straight Teched to a 2 port banshee all-in instead of expoing because your econ was down the toilet. ^_^
Well this is the first game I've encountered with a 2rax play. Unless people are willing to put in some effort and post their own games or practice with me, then we will have no choice but to be content with the data we have.
Here are the reps (sadly they are all pre patch now). Some of the opponents are lower than me but some are higher:
The last repay is the most recent one, it features killing the first overlord xD and later some nice HSMs.
2 Rax FEs from about 2 months ago. Just imagine that every Raven is 2 Tanks and about 1/3rd of the marine count is half the number of marauders. No Kyrix style 2 base bust but those aren't that game breaking if you get tanks and enough buildings.
The important timings for the 2 Rax are 4-5 min for the initial poke/SCV all-in and 8-11 min for either 2 separate pushes or a single massive push. Most people aren't as good at marine micro as KME but uber micro tricks shouldn't be factored into build discussions.
Wow, thanks a lot for the reps! I will certainly look through them later and see what conclusions we can draw from the games.
On December 14 2010 11:52 iAmJeffReY wrote: If thats the first two rax, ever faced a 2 rax -> bunker blocking your ramp to force you to stay in base as terran expos?
I used to face this when I went hatch first. I haven't faced it once going pool first.
I haven't found a good use for the build in ZvZ. It does win against 6 pool, but it's inferior to 14 hatch in every other situation where you take your expo. In particular, it's extremely difficult to hold a 1 base attack because your spines are late (you also don't get creep up to your ramp in time to put a building there, which helps). Your response to hatch first is basically the same as hatch first mass ling, which isn't an 'instant win' by any means, only it's worse because you get a late gas. If you don't take your expo you're stuck doing an inferior roach open or a really inferior ling open.
In ZvT I find the standard build and my original variation (extractor trick to get lings out at 18, hatch on 19) doesn't do great against hellions on account of the late gas. You can put up a crawler in time if you start it early at your base and move it but you can't get your second queen and use all your inject larva if you do, at least if you want your gas at any reasonable time. So I've been going 11 overpool, with a queen, extractor, and set of lings immediately as the pool finishes. I skip the drone scout and just scout with the initial lings, killing off any hatch block/scout and taking my hatch. This way, ling speed is not very late. (You can take drones off gas once you hit 100) The downside is a pretty miniscule 75 mineral delay on your hatch (and it's only a delay if they weren't blocking) and more importantly you can't afford an early second queen.
I've been doing the same thing against toss - again, without relatively early gas stalker pressure is really obnoxious.
I compared 11 Pool 14 Gas with 14 Gas 14 Pool by measuring their situation at the 7min mark. I found that 11 Pool had managed to produce 2 more Larva, both of which had to be invested in Zerglings - you have to fend off Hellions without a Spine for a longer time with 11 Pool. However, more interesting was that the 11 Pool was sitting on 400 less minerals in the bank.
On December 14 2010 19:26 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I compared 11 Pool 14 Gas with 14 Gas 14 Pool by measuring their situation at the 7min mark. I found that 11 Pool had managed to produce 2 more Larva, both of which had to be invested in Zerglings - you have to fend off Hellions without a Spine for a longer time with 11 Pool. However, more interesting was that the 11 Pool was sitting on 400 less minerals in the bank.
Are you positive you built all the exact same stuff with the two builds? 100 mins are already accounted for by the two extra sets of lings.
Having done sort of a ridiculous amount of testing on the topic myself, and having done mathematical breakdowns of exactly where 11pool is behind, how much it's behind, and why, I have a really hard time believing it's that far behind unless your 11pool execution is sub-optimal and you're comparing it to a very much practiced 14gas/14pool. (although to be fair, all my testing has been using drone races that never take gas, which isn't exactly the most realistic of tests, but that seems to be the best way to measure a build's maximum potential economy)
Happen to still have the replays? I'd be interested in seeing them.
I'm a 2.1k diamond zerg and i have bin using this build sience i first saw it on this forum about 2-3 threds ago.
I realy have had my ups and downs with it.
If i face toss i go something like: 11 OL 11 pool drones to 14 if small map and 15 if slighly bigger. when pool is done i build lings from the larvas + queen + extractor trick and one more set of lings then ol with next larva. the lings are usually about 50-60% done when his scouting probe comes then i kill it and sometimes fake a roach warren before i kill it then take expand (wich he doesnt see right away) and run to him pokeing at ramp and try to see anything that lets me know his build. My scouting ol is also placed somewere around his base so i can do i overlord sac later on if i cant see his tech. From here i go gas before my exp is done and maynard like 4 drones and put up a spine at exp (and ofcourse another queen). Now i pump drones untill i see any kind of aggression. Now i build lair with my first 100 gas and then i saw overlord to see his tech. If he does does 4 gate i build 3 more spines + roach warren and uppgrade burrow asap and just pump drones, as long as i didnt loose massive to his push and micro well he will have to go back when my burrow is done and make robo, then i aply some preassure with roach while taking 3rd expand and uppgrade zerglingspeed and make a spire asap. then its all up to mass ling mass mutt marass (i sometimes ad a baneling nest and get drop if my gas alow it to drop some banes in probes while harassing mith mutta).
If the toss makes stargate i had 2 queen and just tech to 2-3 hyds and then burrow + roach, this is the time when u can really punnish him... he will not have observer so you can abuse burrow roach.
If he makes 3 gate robo or some kind of fast robo build i will get overseer asap to kill his observer then mass uppg. ling (and slow roach if needed for early preassure) then mutta/corruptor.
If FE with photon, then just the same burrow roach but slightly slower as i take my 3rd but not droneing it up right away.
It works most of the times, cuz if the protoss does anything els then robo in begining you will be able to stand your ground with burrow roach, and possible harass and/or even win with it. and if he does early observer / immortal / collosus then just make mutta asap, cuz immortal sux against lings and cant shoot air
vs terr it is the same but fastling speed to mutta/baneling/speedling and possible 2-3 roach in beggining just to nullify those helions. If terr does banashe just 2 extra queen and sverseer then ure safe.
z v z: here i have some slight problem. what i do is i have my 18 hatch inbase, and make gas at 13 (just for the fast ling speed or a early +atack uppgrade for roach/hyd) then if he expand i take 1 drone away from gas to minerals uppgrade speed pump lings outisde is base and when speed is about 50% i make banelingnest and start to harass is expand with speedling and some baneling to kill his lings (if he has any) if he doesnt have have roach i go for drones with bling and kill everything els with ling. If he holds is ramp with roach, u realy need to be fast to transfe to roach play and make a +1uppgrade asap and try to expand asap.
If it becomes a mid game play i make mass roach/hyds with nass uppgrade then go for infestor.
only problem i have had in this matchup with 11 overpool is a timing window when i have taken my expand and started roach,. Even tho i have superior uppgrades on roach but just slightly smaller roach numbers then my oponent he kills me, i have even tryed to fast roach myself with fast uppgrade with this build against another one base fast roach zerg, and even tho i have better uppgrades he seem to have such numbers of roach that he just runs me over.
i hope someone can find then strenght to read through this wall of text and find some sense in it i have tryed this BO in about 40-50 ladder games so i have some experience
That being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches.
Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random.
You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time).
If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy.
Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure.
Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21.
I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way.
Replay Notes: I went for 4 Zerglings with the 14 Gas build and 6 with the 11 Pool, I resumed mining gas at 5:10 with both builds. I made a Spine Crawler when the expansion was at 50% with both builds. 14 Gas also gives you earlier Zergling Speed, against Hellions it won't matter, but against Stalkers it would.
Also, in a real game I'd probably need 2 Spine Crawlers, more Zerglings and a third Queen and a second Extractor when starting Lair. However, 11 Pool wouldn't be able to spend all its early Larva if I got all of that.
The only situation where an 11 Pool would be better than a 14 Pool would be against a 2 Rax all-in where all SCVs are pulled. However, we still don't know whether it can hold such a rush or not.
On December 14 2010 08:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: Im not sure if i missread something or whether you editted your post afterwards, but how in gods name can you scout whether your opponent is going for what you call "gateway pressure" or a stargate? Of course, when you know what your opponent will do within the next minutes it is easy to counter, but any decent protoss will deny this information. Furthermore, if your opponent scouts you getting a late gas, he will pressure with his first stalker, whats your plan to defend against this?
The thing is, you cant just have such different plans depending on what your opponent will do in the future, as it is not possible to know what will come.
Question - overlord sacrifice at 4:45 (best time vs toss). How could a toss denie that scouting information? :o At that time he has max 1-2 stalkers normally. Can't really kill the overlord fast enough to not let him see what the protoss is doing :/
On December 14 2010 08:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: Im not sure if i missread something or whether you editted your post afterwards, but how in gods name can you scout whether your opponent is going for what you call "gateway pressure" or a stargate? Of course, when you know what your opponent will do within the next minutes it is easy to counter, but any decent protoss will deny this information. Furthermore, if your opponent scouts you getting a late gas, he will pressure with his first stalker, whats your plan to defend against this?
The thing is, you cant just have such different plans depending on what your opponent will do in the future, as it is not possible to know what will come.
Question - overlord sacrifice at 4:45 (best time vs toss). How could a toss denie that scouting information? :o At that time he has max 1-2 stalkers normally. Can't really kill the overlord fast enough to not let him see what the protoss is doing :/
If the main is large enough or his tech hidden well enough he can easily kill it in time. Of course he can aslo proxy his tech. You are never guaranteed to scout what your opponent is up to, but you can certainly attempt to.
That being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches.
Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random.
You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time).
If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy.
Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure.
Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21.
I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way.
On a map like Xel naga caverns you cannot defend against stalker harras with 1 stalker. and XNC happens to be one of the maps where this is pretty common, and it is a map that is played quite often has it is rarely voted down by P or Z. Getting gas so late also makes you extremely vulnerable to very fast 4 gate stalker allins (like for example socke plays in PvP). Also, building a spine crawler that early is also quite costly, so why not just get the zergling speed earlier (you need that anyway)? - Ling speed will also allow you to scout for proxy pylons faster, and it will allow you to intercept scouting probes, leaving your opponent in the dark much more (it takes ages to kill scouts with slow lings).
On December 14 2010 08:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: Im not sure if i missread something or whether you editted your post afterwards, but how in gods name can you scout whether your opponent is going for what you call "gateway pressure" or a stargate? Of course, when you know what your opponent will do within the next minutes it is easy to counter, but any decent protoss will deny this information. Furthermore, if your opponent scouts you getting a late gas, he will pressure with his first stalker, whats your plan to defend against this?
The thing is, you cant just have such different plans depending on what your opponent will do in the future, as it is not possible to know what will come.
Question - overlord sacrifice at 4:45 (best time vs toss). How could a toss denie that scouting information? :o At that time he has max 1-2 stalkers normally. Can't really kill the overlord fast enough to not let him see what the protoss is doing :/
Even a single stalker kills a slow overlord pretty quickly, even on XNC you are not guaranteed to see his tech. I completely stopped sacrificing overlords personally, i just try to take a peek at the edges of the baes sometimes.
On December 14 2010 22:03 DarKFoRcE wrote: I completely stopped sacrificing overlords personally, i just try to take a peek at the edges of the baes sometimes.
Do you also quit suiciding overlords with speed? How do you scout if he techs to dark templar? I am always afraid of DTs.
On December 14 2010 22:03 DarKFoRcE wrote: I completely stopped sacrificing overlords personally, i just try to take a peek at the edges of the baes sometimes.
Do you also quit suiciding overlords with speed? How do you scout if he techs to dark templar? I am always afraid of DTs.
No of course i will use overlords to scout once i have speed, but then you will actually very likely find his tech, instead of just a smal chance of seeing a a part of what he has. How do you scout a correctly placed dark shrine when he has 1 stalker looking for overlords?
On December 14 2010 22:03 DarKFoRcE wrote: I completely stopped sacrificing overlords personally, i just try to take a peek at the edges of the baes sometimes.
Do you also quit suiciding overlords with speed? How do you scout if he techs to dark templar? I am always afraid of DTs.
No of course i will use overlords to scout once i have speed, but then you will actually very likely find his tech, instead of just a smal chance of seeing a a part of what he has. How do you scout a correctly placed dark shrine when he has 1 stalker looking for overlords?
I try to move the slowerlord around his base without getting detected and then fly into the rear of his base. At least in the newb leagues I play, I sometime can see some starports or a templar tech he tries to hide.
That being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches.
Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random.
You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time).
If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy.
Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure.
Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21.
I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way.
On a map like Xel naga caverns you cannot defend against stalker harras with 1 stalker. and XNC happens to be one of the maps where this is pretty common, and it is a map that is played quite often has it is rarely voted down by P or Z. Getting gas so late also makes you extremely vulnerable to very fast 4 gate stalker allins (like for example socke plays in PvP). Also, building a spine crawler that early is also quite costly, so why not just get the zergling speed earlier (you need that anyway)? - Ling speed will also allow you to scout for proxy pylons faster, and it will allow you to intercept scouting probes, leaving your opponent in the dark much more (it takes ages to kill scouts with slow lings).
Yep, of course you'll need to alter your strategy depending on the map. On Xel'Naga an earlier gas will be a good idea, and it doesn't really alter your build much at all. Can get the gas at 16 and it still won't delay your hatch timing much at all. This still won't be in time to defend vs the fast Stalkers, though. I've found it viable to just have one crawler protect my nat ramp while the Stalkers pew pew my expansion(might need to pull drones) and hold out until ling speed.
Of course I'm nowhere near as good as you are so maybe this doesn't work like I said against better opponents.
For 12pool, actually it seems like extractor trick - 11ov - drone after ov comes out and then pool right after might be the best way to go about it. Gives a really fast pool and if you do the early droning perfectly(not too difficult), you'll only delay your larvae for about half a second, on some maps not at all.
The crawler, by the way, I'd build when my first inject is around halfway done. You're going to want your second Queen here as well, and then your larvae come out. The flaw with building a crawler like this is the fact that you'll be supply blocked at 26/26 for a little while(ov at about 25/26), but it's not so bad since you're going to get a tumor with your second 25 energy.
The 11 pool build is very powerful, and if the number crunching is to be believed, it can macro nearly just as well as any other macro orientated build. In the thread I was reading on TL when the build is focused entirely for drone production and expanding against other builds like 14 hatch 15 pool or 14 pool 15 hatch or whatever, it was like 97% as effective. Two or three hundred minerals behind after the first 5,000 or so minerals collected is just fine.
Zerg isn't all about money and expansions, larva timing can be extremely crucial. I would really like to see how much larva this build can mass at certain time marks against certain timing pushes, and I would like to see how scouting at different times (taking a drone off production), building lings at x supply or a spine crawler can effect the economy. My experience from using this build pretty much every game is that it is very flexible but more then a little finicky. Interruptions in drone timing, or losing an early overlord can reek havoc on this build economically within the early game. After about 35 supply it doesn't matter what you opened with if you scored a second base with drone saturation. I think against terrans that go two racks and bunker rush, it can actually be more beneficial to go 15 hatch 15 pool and try and get up the natural more quickly, so you can use drone micro and a spine crawler to stop the bunker rush and guarantee an economic advantage. If they can block off your ramp, even if you have a few lings, then you are much worse off in that one example. More testing needs to be done for sure.
That being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches.
Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random.
You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time).
If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy.
Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure.
Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21.
I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way.
On a map like Xel naga caverns you cannot defend against stalker harras with 1 stalker. and XNC happens to be one of the maps where this is pretty common, and it is a map that is played quite often has it is rarely voted down by P or Z. Getting gas so late also makes you extremely vulnerable to very fast 4 gate stalker allins (like for example socke plays in PvP). Also, building a spine crawler that early is also quite costly, so why not just get the zergling speed earlier (you need that anyway)? - Ling speed will also allow you to scout for proxy pylons faster, and it will allow you to intercept scouting probes, leaving your opponent in the dark much more (it takes ages to kill scouts with slow lings).
Yep, of course you'll need to alter your strategy depending on the map. On Xel'Naga an earlier gas will be a good idea, and it doesn't really alter your build much at all. Can get the gas at 16 and it still won't delay your hatch timing much at all. This still won't be in time to defend vs the fast Stalkers, though. I've found it viable to just have one crawler protect my nat ramp while the Stalkers pew pew my expansion(might need to pull drones) and hold out until ling speed.
Of course I'm nowhere near as good as you are so maybe this doesn't work like I said against better opponents.
For 12pool, actually it seems like extractor trick - 11ov - drone after ov comes out and then pool right after might be the best way to go about it. Gives a really fast pool and if you do the early droning perfectly(not too difficult), you'll only delay your larvae for about half a second, on some maps not at all.
The crawler, by the way, I'd build when my first inject is around halfway done. You're going to want your second Queen here as well, and then your larvae come out. The flaw with building a crawler like this is the fact that you'll be supply blocked at 26/26 for a little while(ov at about 25/26), but it's not so bad since you're going to get a tumor with your second 25 energy.
I think youre in for alot of trouble going 16 Gas after 11 Pool on XNC, as this gets gas even later than a 14 pool 16 gas build, which is already way too late imo. WhiteRa for example always Chronoboosts his first stalker out and will scout your Gastiming and thus know when speed finishes. It is extremely annoying to have to build a ton of pretty much useless Lings because you get harrased by 1-2 Stalkers, which you basically cannot kill without speed.
That being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches.
Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random.
You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time).
If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy.
Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure.
Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21.
I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way.
On a map like Xel naga caverns you cannot defend against stalker harras with 1 stalker. and XNC happens to be one of the maps where this is pretty common, and it is a map that is played quite often has it is rarely voted down by P or Z. Getting gas so late also makes you extremely vulnerable to very fast 4 gate stalker allins (like for example socke plays in PvP). Also, building a spine crawler that early is also quite costly, so why not just get the zergling speed earlier (you need that anyway)? - Ling speed will also allow you to scout for proxy pylons faster, and it will allow you to intercept scouting probes, leaving your opponent in the dark much more (it takes ages to kill scouts with slow lings).
Yep, of course you'll need to alter your strategy depending on the map. On Xel'Naga an earlier gas will be a good idea, and it doesn't really alter your build much at all. Can get the gas at 16 and it still won't delay your hatch timing much at all. This still won't be in time to defend vs the fast Stalkers, though. I've found it viable to just have one crawler protect my nat ramp while the Stalkers pew pew my expansion(might need to pull drones) and hold out until ling speed.
Of course I'm nowhere near as good as you are so maybe this doesn't work like I said against better opponents.
For 12pool, actually it seems like extractor trick - 11ov - drone after ov comes out and then pool right after might be the best way to go about it. Gives a really fast pool and if you do the early droning perfectly(not too difficult), you'll only delay your larvae for about half a second, on some maps not at all.
The crawler, by the way, I'd build when my first inject is around halfway done. You're going to want your second Queen here as well, and then your larvae come out. The flaw with building a crawler like this is the fact that you'll be supply blocked at 26/26 for a little while(ov at about 25/26), but it's not so bad since you're going to get a tumor with your second 25 energy.
I think youre in for alot of trouble going 16 Gas after 11 Pool on XNC, as this gets gas even later than a 14 pool 16 gas build, which is already way too late imo. WhiteRa for example always Chronoboosts his first stalker out and will scout your Gastiming and thus know when speed finishes. It is extremely annoying to have to build a ton of pretty much useless Lings because you get harrased by 1-2 Stalkers, which you basically cannot kill without speed.
Maybe instead of doing an extractor trick we should just let the extractor finish at 10/10... Gas doesn't get much quicker than that lol....
Just get the extractor at 13 and pull off gas after speed if you really want same timings as a 14g 14p.
First stalker comes out around 4:10 and you get your natural with a crawler at 5:05(going lategas), giving the walking distances and some delaying and such, it really should be all right, and has been for me. 12pool can do the same thing as 14g 14p, just better econ
DarkForce - thank you for your input. Always love reading knowledgeable Z posts from individuals who know what they are talking about. The bigger picture becomes clearer.
with 14g 14p you have around 325-350 minerals when the pool finishes, which is exactly what you need to get 2 pairs of lings (100 minerals) 1 queen (150) and speed (100). Getting the Gas or Pool or both earlier than that thus seems completely counterintuitive to me, as you cannot build everything you want anyway when the pool finishes.
I mean, i dunno how many games you have played, but i prefer intuition/experience and testing in real games over isolated models and statistics. If you are more interested in the problems with modelling and statistics, i can recommend the books "Fooled by Randomness" and "The Black Swan" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.
Im not saying the 11 Pool build has absolutely no uses, but it seems like the weaknesses become apparent once you start discussing how you adapt to certain circumstances, like early stalker aggression in ZvP.
On December 17 2010 03:47 Shikyo wrote: Just get the extractor at 13 and pull off gas after speed if you really want same timings as a 14g 14p.
First stalker comes out around 4:10 and you get your natural with a crawler at 5:05, giving the walking distances and some delaying and such, it really should be all right, and has been for me. 12pool can do the same thing as 14g 14p, just better econ
Doesnt change what i critiziced in the post above yours.
Well yeah, if you really want the superfast speed 14g 14p is probably better. I just don't think that should be a necessity, though it might be on Xel'Naga. As I said, thus far I haven't had problems with delaying the gas so long, but I probably don't play vs players that are good enough.
Yes, most Protoss players, even in diamond, dont look for gastiming and react accordingly when seeing a late gas. I also got gas at like 22ish supply for a long time, but i rather get it earlier and sacrifice a little eco instead of having to build like 10+ zerglings just because 1-2 stalkers come. There are even some super fast 4 gates which will come before you have speed when you get late gas, and when you have 6 stalkers knocking at your door you really want to have speed.
Personally the times I've come up against this build I wasn't too impressed. Hatch blocking or scv marine rushing really hurts this build, but I suppose it could have some uses on really, really big maps.
On December 17 2010 05:30 Fargoth wrote: Personally the times I've come up against this build I wasn't too impressed. Hatch blocking or scv marine rushing really hurts this build, but I suppose it could have some uses on really, really big maps.
I pretty strongly disagree there. 11 pool allows for a wicked fast queen, so you can start larva hording early. After the first 26 supply there is enough drone production to keep up constant lings, even on one base. The timing for a scv bunker rush is almost identical to the time it takes to put down a second hatch and get two queens. The transition from droning to rush defense is really fast at about the 35 supply mark, which, with larva inject, is going to give you about 12 larva every thirty seconds. As a zvt opening, this is very strong. The pros say to go 15 hatch 14 pool, but I don't understand that logic personally. An early queen is less of a resource, gives you time to cancel a hatchery in the event of a super early marine push ( < 26 food, after that both queens can be out an a handful of queens + drones can easily hold of 4 marines and 3 scvs) and with the ability to hit larva inject early you can drone up fast and punish quick with lots of lings. I have experiment a lot with this build, and as a ZvT I have a hard time finding the flaws.
This build is not quite as good with zvz or zvp. Trying to get down an early extractor is awkward because the build is pretty lopsided towards mass larva to make up for a little less drone production. I have been working with it a little myself, no expert gamer, just trying to practice a strong opening. I think 14 pool into extractors and a roach warren would be better if you feel early pressure is likely, 15 hatch into 14 pool if you feel safe in these match ups. It is tough though, because you can go for a 7RR very easily with this build if you can scout an early expand from protoss or zerg. Jungle basin is one map where a blind 7RR from 11 pool is 9 of 10 times going to work out just great in zvp and zvz where they go hatch first or delayed pool.
This build also has some problems with early hellion harrass. You need to go two base pretty quick for an eco style build in order to make use of all the larrva, which spreads out the few zerglings you have. It is also awkward trying to find a time to get down a spine crawler for defense, and it is difficult to fit in an early gas for zergling speed too. The window is short though, after 35 or so supply it is quite possible to get zergling speed and layer, and begin thinking banneling speed too or even quicker mutas.
I'm curious, do you aways build lings between 11pool and 18 hatch, because if you do, then you fall behind compared to 14 hatch builds. If you don't build at least 4, then it becomes extremely hard to hold 2 rax or even a cannon contain. I'm curious as to how well you can hold it without falling behind in econ. Also, I'm quite confident that 14 hatch can hold this build off on maps whose natural aren't completely open. 1-2 spines, 2 queens on the ramp and a couple lings will hold it off long enough.
It is not possible to mount an attack between 11 and 18 without going for an extremely early 2 or 3 rine bunker rush all in. By the time my drone scout meets up with the terran base they might be able to just have two rax down, and I am already on 14 or 15 supply with my pool nearly finished. The moment of weakness is in between the overload spawn, hatch going down, and waiting for the overload to pop. I make a habit of building six zerglings as soon as I go pass 18 food, and then scouting to see if it is ok to go back to drone production. I am not a high level player at all so I might be a lot more vulnerable then I think, but so far I haven't seen to many effective bunker rushes happening that early. Another thing, I time my hatchery so that its production is not finished before my first set of lings come out, and it just finishes when I rally my second queen to it. In my specific case with this build, it is possible to cancel the hatchery and focus more on lings and spines in that window. Six pool would definitely not work against this build, although maybe a really well played two gate and a cannon rush could deny the expansion but I don't think it could wall me in very easily.
@Darkforce, may I ask how you usually open vs toss on close and cross positions? I still try to get away with a 14 hatch on cross positions (I'll probably experiment with 13 hatch/15 pool for the next week) and I usually open with 14 gas 14 pool on close positions and on 2 player maps like XNC.
On December 18 2010 01:34 Warrior Madness wrote: @Darkforce, may I ask how you usually open vs toss on close and cross positions? I still try to get away with a 14 hatch on cross positions (I'll probably experiment with 13 hatch/15 pool for the next week) and I usually open with 14 gas 14 pool on close positions and on 2 player maps like XNC.
I'm assuming he opens 14 gas 14 pool, since he said 14 pool 16 gas gets speed too late for stalker pressure.
You know, I must have heard about 100 arguments against this build, and after enough debate it seems every single one of them boils down to an assumption about having less minerals or larvae... Which is why I went to the trouble of documenting the precise mineral and larvae differences between each build, so people could see exactly how many minerals they would have compared to another at each point in time.
Intuitively I've never understood how a build that has a similar resource count to another would have more trouble getting the same amount of buildings, units, and gas. The only argument that has made sense to me is the fact you can get a spine at the nat sooner with hatch-first.
I'm not trying to be an ass or close-minded or anything... I just don't understand most of the criticisms being leveled against the build. If you need gas sooner, then get gas sooner? How does it hurt you more with an 11pool than a 14pool to get gas?
Because they assume they have less minerals or larvae... That is always the only answer possible.
The problem is I am battling against years of firmly cemented convictions that earlier pools sacrifice too much economy. And some convictions are nearly impossible to break.
On December 18 2010 03:18 jdseemoreglass wrote: You know, I must have heard about 100 arguments against this build, and after enough debate it seems every single one of them boils down to an assumption about having less minerals or larvae... Which is why I went to the trouble of documenting the precise mineral and larvae differences between each build, so people could see exactly how many minerals they would have compared to another at each point in time.
Intuitively I've never understood how a build that has a similar resource count to another would have more trouble getting the same amount of buildings, units, and gas. The only argument that has made sense to me is the fact you can get a spine at the nat sooner with hatch-first.
I'm not trying to be an ass or close-minded or anything... I just don't understand most of the criticisms being leveled against the build. If you need gas sooner, then get gas sooner? How does it hurt you more with an 11pool than a 14pool to get gas?
Because they assume they have less minerals or larvae... That is always the only answer possible.
The problem is I am battling against years of firmly cemented convictions that earlier pools sacrifice too much economy. And some convictions are nearly impossible to break.
I thought you agreed in the other thread that you sacrifice some eco early on for an earlier inject. Now youre trying to make it look like 11 pool is never behind in eco (lol). And no, im not going to make a shiny graph for you to prove it. I mean, why dont we get a 6 pool for the super fast queen if there is no economic sacrifice?!
On December 18 2010 01:34 Warrior Madness wrote: @Darkforce, may I ask how you usually open vs toss on close and cross positions? I still try to get away with a 14 hatch on cross positions (I'll probably experiment with 13 hatch/15 pool for the next week) and I usually open with 14 gas 14 pool on close positions and on 2 player maps like XNC.
I either go 14 gas 14 pool (always on XNC) or 14 pool 14-16 gas. It depends on the opponent and the positions. There are some people who are very likely to do early stalker aggression, against these i prefer going for a faster gas, on closer positions i also get the gas faster. I never hatch first, as you almost always get blocked by a probe (sometimes building a pylon) or zealot+cannonrushed or both.
..............11 pool will hurt your economy a bit. Other than that, it's perfectly fine. You should use this only when you go 14-15 pool and got steam roll by any sort of early pressure including forge cannon from protoss. or even proxy barrack.
On December 18 2010 03:18 jdseemoreglass wrote: You know, I must have heard about 100 arguments against this build, and after enough debate it seems every single one of them boils down to an assumption about having less minerals or larvae... Which is why I went to the trouble of documenting the precise mineral and larvae differences between each build, so people could see exactly how many minerals they would have compared to another at each point in time.
Intuitively I've never understood how a build that has a similar resource count to another would have more trouble getting the same amount of buildings, units, and gas. The only argument that has made sense to me is the fact you can get a spine at the nat sooner with hatch-first.
I'm not trying to be an ass or close-minded or anything... I just don't understand most of the criticisms being leveled against the build. If you need gas sooner, then get gas sooner? How does it hurt you more with an 11pool than a 14pool to get gas?
Because they assume they have less minerals or larvae... That is always the only answer possible.
The problem is I am battling against years of firmly cemented convictions that earlier pools sacrifice too much economy. And some convictions are nearly impossible to break.
I use this build a lot and I am a huge fan. In my experimentation with it, there are somethings that are very awkward about it. For instance, you are supposed to plan to be supply blocked at 11 and 18. In the econ/mass ling style this is just fine, because you can save up for a pool at 11 and a hatchery at 18, and everything works out just great. When you want to go fast roaches, this build just feels awkward, but I think it might be just as well off if not better then a traditional pool styles. So far with a build order I am experimenting with now, I am able to get 8 roaches at the 5 minute mark and still expand. I can go quick lair from that too. Later today I am going to try a 14 pool early gas build instead, and try and compare the two.
On December 18 2010 03:18 jdseemoreglass wrote: You know, I must have heard about 100 arguments against this build, and after enough debate it seems every single one of them boils down to an assumption about having less minerals or larvae... Which is why I went to the trouble of documenting the precise mineral and larvae differences between each build, so people could see exactly how many minerals they would have compared to another at each point in time.
Intuitively I've never understood how a build that has a similar resource count to another would have more trouble getting the same amount of buildings, units, and gas. The only argument that has made sense to me is the fact you can get a spine at the nat sooner with hatch-first.
I'm not trying to be an ass or close-minded or anything... I just don't understand most of the criticisms being leveled against the build. If you need gas sooner, then get gas sooner? How does it hurt you more with an 11pool than a 14pool to get gas?
Because they assume they have less minerals or larvae... That is always the only answer possible.
The problem is I am battling against years of firmly cemented convictions that earlier pools sacrifice too much economy. And some convictions are nearly impossible to break.
I use this build a lot and I am a huge fan. In my experimentation with it, there are somethings that are very awkward about it. For instance, you are supposed to plan to be supply blocked at 11 and 18. In the econ/mass ling style this is just fine, because you can save up for a pool at 11 and a hatchery at 18, and everything works out just great. When you want to go fast roaches, this build just feels awkward, but I think it might be just as well off if not better then a traditional pool styles. So far with a build order I am experimenting with now, I am able to get 8 roaches at the 5 minute mark and still expand. I can go quick lair from that too. Later today I am going to try a 14 pool early gas build instead, and try and compare the two.
The only reason to cut the later overlord is if you are planning on getting an immediate hatch. If you want units out sooner, then get the over at 18 and delay the hatch a bit. This of course relies on scouting or the match-up to know when to do each.
I thought you agreed in the other thread that you sacrifice some eco early on for an earlier inject. Now youre trying to make it look like 11 pool is never behind in eco (lol). And no, im not going to make a shiny graph for you to prove it. I mean, why dont we get a 6 pool for the super fast queen if there is no economic sacrifice?!
I will not comment on the meaning or implications of this data -- I will simply allow you to analyze it and form your own conclusions regarding the relative merits and economic efficiency of each build. + Show Spoiler +
This is the data we have been using for a while now... There are slight variations from minute to minute, but overall the economy differs little.
We used the data for 13 Pool 15 Hatch because according to jacobman's testing, this was the best pool-first build. If you would like to see the data on other builds which tested inferior, there are other builds and data he put on his thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374
The reason I have been favoring this build so much is because I believe the greater flexibility and larvae count more than make up for the economic differences that have been recognized, and because it is much safer than hatch-first, and because it denies scouting information to your opponent.
There has been some debate regarding whether hatch-first or pool-first is the safest response against 2rax pressure, which is why I created another thread to test each.
According to that thread's testing, 13 pool 15 hatch is slightly ahead of all other pool-first builds and, unless I missed something, ahead in terms of larva production compared to all of the other builds. It also gets the hatchery 23 seconds earlier, so it stands to reason there's a slightly less chance of getting your hatchery blocked - though that could be completely irrelevant.
Getting the OV @ 18 seems quite elegant. Overhatch following the Overpool.
Two things come to mind: 1- There seem to be a lot of criticisms based on "But on XelNaga you can't..." or other map specific objections. Maybe, just maybe, this build is not suitable for every single map and situation, but how can having more diversity hurt your play on maps on which this is actually viable?
2- Vs a Hatch first Zerg, if you spot it early, can't you just pull 2-3 drones, save larvae, and do the old fashioned crawlers + ling rally as soon as pool finishes? It seems to me like it would be extremely hard to hold.
watching the ressource and larvae charts, there seems to be no reason to not 11 pool (more tec/build options earlier). Ofc the earlier queen + inject makes up for slight early larvae loss. And even if darkforce is a very top level player, sarcasm about "why not play 6 pool to get inject ealrier" sounds like he's not a very mathematical person ;-). Ofc there is a range where earlier inject pays off somewhat for initial larvae sacrification. However in the extreme (7,8,9 pool) it hits your eco hard. If you get inject too late, you get larvae capped. I think a lot of very good players played BW before, and because there was no such thing as larvae inject, they have a strong feeling any kind of early pool hurts eco. Maybe there are other factors which makes later pools and hatch first attractive to people. E.g. a hatch first build is more forgiving if you do sloppy larvae inject or loose your queen to early pressure. There seem to be some "soft" factors, the game is more than economy and larvae ..
BTW: i prefer hatch first, because it "feels" more economic to me and is more forgiving in case you sloppy inject (because of 2cnd hatch) ;-).
I gave this thread some BM last time but I did give this some trial and error on ladder off and on.
So instead of trashing it furthur, I'm going to be constructive about this:
I really, really do not feel as though this is effective. I was 2200 diamond when I BM'd it, now 2500. However, I still have never won a game BECAUSE of it.
ZvZ: absolutely not. Its an awful thing to do, because fast expanding when your opponent goes early roach, and all you have are slowlings by the time his push comes out = absolute fail. You will not get 100 gas off one geyser using your setup. He can also freely expand since you have slowlings meaning he'll get ahead of you in economy fairly quickly. Having a queen out for 1 faster inject means nothing if you can't put that extra larva to use. In fact, you lose the auto generated larva benefits of a more standard opening in ZVZ like 14 pool/gas (depending on sling or roach open).
ZvT: DEFINITELY NOT. Almost every terran opens 2 rax, or some kind of hellion harass. All I can say is, the later you expand, the worse off you are against this matchup. Reason being, that if you hatch on 18 your creep at your natural will NEVER be up in time for the push to drop a spine down. The reason we go 14 hatch almost every game against TVZ is for the creep to defend both your natural and main, and also for the earlier auto larva.
So think of it this way. You get a queen out 2 supply sooner with 11overpool since your economy is raped by the fact you pooled so early. But its just 1 queen. With 14 hatch, you'll get that extra larva inject you didn't get with the 1 queen, but now you have TWO QUEENS INJECTING MUCH FASTER.
So logically 1 extra inject on 1 hatch < 2 sooner injects on 2 hatch. So your larva production is much better with 14 hatch than 11 overpool. And I am sorry to tell you this, but getting 6 lings out to defend your 18 hatch will fail when they get there with 4 hellions and your hatch just popped. Also they are slowlings too, so they are a joke to kill with hells. You won't have a spine to defend that expansion, and if you aren't droning up at it, (and day9 went over this thoroughly) that expansion is a NET LOSS until you can saturate it decently and pay back the costs in lost mining time. So you can't put drones at your natural until you have one of two things: ling speed, or 1-2 spines + lings to defend it.
And you can't do that with such a late hatch. So this build is extremely vulnerable to bunker play, hellion play, early marines (if your opponent doesn't fail at micro).
ZvP: Only time thsi build has any merit, because the point is valid that earlier lings = preventing pylon blocking. GREAT. I actually would emphasize that this isn't a bad idea, but neither is opening 7 pool against protoss as shown in a recent ZvP against HuK. You can actually use that 7 pool to force the protoss to lock himself to one base, and overcompensate to not get wtfpwned by early ling rush. And then transition smoothly into a standard build. I forget what the zerg player's name was, but it was on last night's daily. Excellent example of why early lings is good in ZvP, but I'd much rather use that 7 pool transition build than 11 overpool. It forces a much more early overreaction whereas 11 overpool both hurts your economy and doesn't get anything dangerous out at a timing window that's worth it. 7 pool does have a very real danger to it to the protoss player.
On December 18 2010 11:37 Mephs wrote: I gave this thread some BM last time but I did give this some trial and error on ladder off and on.
So instead of trashing it furthur, I'm going to be constructive about this:
I really, really do not feel as though this is effective. I was 2200 diamond when I BM'd it, now 2500. However, I still have never won a game BECAUSE of it.
ZvZ: absolutely not. Its an awful thing to do, because fast expanding when your opponent goes early roach, and all you have are slowlings by the time his push comes out = absolute fail. You will not get 100 gas off one geyser using your setup. He can also freely expand since you have slowlings meaning he'll get ahead of you in economy fairly quickly. Having a queen out for 1 faster inject means nothing if you can't put that extra larva to use. In fact, you lose the auto generated larva benefits of a more standard opening in ZVZ like 14 pool/gas (depending on sling or roach open).
ZvT: DEFINITELY NOT. Almost every terran opens 2 rax, or some kind of hellion harass. All I can say is, the later you expand, the worse off you are against this matchup. Reason being, that if you hatch on 18 your creep at your natural will NEVER be up in time for the push to drop a spine down. The reason we go 14 hatch almost every game against TVZ is for the creep to defend both your natural and main, and also for the earlier auto larva.
So think of it this way. You get a queen out 2 supply sooner with 11overpool since your economy is raped by the fact you pooled so early. But its just 1 queen. With 14 hatch, you'll get that extra larva inject you didn't get with the 1 queen, but now you have TWO QUEENS INJECTING MUCH FASTER.
So logically 1 extra inject on 1 hatch < 2 sooner injects on 2 hatch. So your larva production is much better with 14 hatch than 11 overpool. And I am sorry to tell you this, but getting 6 lings out to defend your 18 hatch will fail when they get there with 4 hellions and your hatch just popped. Also they are slowlings too, so they are a joke to kill with hells. You won't have a spine to defend that expansion, and if you aren't droning up at it, (and day9 went over this thoroughly) that expansion is a NET LOSS until you can saturate it decently and pay back the costs in lost mining time. So you can't put drones at your natural until you have one of two things: ling speed, or 1-2 spines + lings to defend it.
And you can't do that with such a late hatch. So this build is extremely vulnerable to bunker play, hellion play, early marines (if your opponent doesn't fail at micro).
ZvP: Only time thsi build has any merit, because the point is valid that earlier lings = preventing pylon blocking. GREAT. I actually would emphasize that this isn't a bad idea, but neither is opening 7 pool against protoss as shown in a recent ZvP against HuK. You can actually use that 7 pool to force the protoss to lock himself to one base, and overcompensate to not get wtfpwned by early ling rush. And then transition smoothly into a standard build. I forget what the zerg player's name was, but it was on last night's daily. Excellent example of why early lings is good in ZvP, but I'd much rather use that 7 pool transition build than 11 overpool. It forces a much more early overreaction whereas 11 overpool both hurts your economy and doesn't get anything dangerous out at a timing window that's worth it. 7 pool does have a very real danger to it to the protoss player.
To be honest, I stopped reading once you said fast expanding and getting lings vs. roach = absolute fail. When I read such things, I have to assume you didn't bother to read the OP.
4) Your opponent went pool first and has no expansion in sight. This is the trickiest scenario to engage. You must keep scouting. See if he is going speedlings or roach push, or if he plans on expanding. The trouble is the opponent will often get two lings and kill your scouting drone before revealing his plan. You should have your own pair of lings to continue scouting. Be persistent about it; you cannot play this in the dark. Whether or not you decide to get your expo up is up to you. I will say there is a degree of risk in it, but the rewards can be significant if your opponent either doesn't attack or the attack fails. I usually add my second overlord and pump drones while waiting for more info. It is key to see if he is going roaches or not.
You might also find this section of the OP helpful for future posts:
If you have lost with this build recently or have had trouble with a particular strategy and want help, please post a detailed explanation and a replay of the game so we can help solve the problem and further adapt the build.
Please look at this replay its a 3-4 Roach Rush vs 11 pool. This is one of the scenarios I believe you do not cover in your OP. Long story short, I've lost the match. Clearly my ling scout missed the roaches on the way to my base but that would have given me 24 extra seconds in which I don't think I could have done much given the larva available. My gas even went down a little later than what your OP proposes for ZvZ.
Hello, I very much like this build for ZvP as in ZvP i feel it is the strongest build currently (imo) but in ZvT i still do the 14 hatch 15 pool on every map, including steppes and do just fine with it.
I can hold off a 2 rax marine scv all-in with 14 hatch 15 pool most of the time so i do not do this build in zvt, but if players do not have the micro or cant hold off a 2 rax marine scv push than this build is great for them.
On December 18 2010 13:16 Kamikiri wrote: Hello, I very much like this build for ZvP as in ZvP i feel it is the strongest build currently (imo) but in ZvT i still do the 14 hatch 15 pool on every map, including steppes and do just fine with it.
I can hold off a 2 rax marine scv all-in with 14 hatch 15 pool most of the time so i do not do this build in zvt, but if players do not have the micro or cant hold off a 2 rax marine scv push than this build is great for them.
May I ask what your ranking is? I don't think my micro is very bad, and yet I've lost 8 games in a row trying to defend hatch-first against 2rax all-in on steppes...
Maybe take a look at these reps and see if either I am doing something wrong or your opponents are doing something wrong.
On December 18 2010 13:04 genopath wrote: @jdseemoreglass
Please look at this replay its a 3-4 Roach Rush vs 11 pool. This is one of the scenarios I believe you do not cover in your OP. Long story short, I've lost the match. Clearly my ling scout missed the roaches on the way to my base but that would have given me 24 extra seconds in which I don't think I could have done much given the larva available. My gas even went down a little later than what your OP proposes for ZvZ.
Hi...
If you look at the OP, I describe how to respond based upon your scouting. Unfortunately, you blindly put an expansion down before you knew what your opponent was doing. I would recommend you keep a drone in his base to see what he is doing and then follow the steps in the OP based on what you see.
I noted that in the scenario where your opponent goes pool-first and has no expansion, you need to scout if he is going for an aggressive speedling or roach opening and respond accordingly. Getting an expansion against a one-base zerg is very risky, especially in close positions, and shouldn't be attempted unless you are very confident in your defense.
BTW: i prefer hatch first, because it "feels" more economic to me and is more forgiving in case you sloppy inject (because of 2cnd hatch) ;-).
lol EVERYONE prefers hatch first... I would do it every game if it was viable. The point is that it's not.
i 10/11 hatch 10..13 pool. this fends of early pressure more easy, even if it sacrifices some eco .. works for me, maybe because me and my opponents suck, so anyway economy is hit by mistakes to the left and right. Loosing some early larvae is not a big issue compared to that :-)
On December 18 2010 10:19 genopath wrote: @Darkforce, I've read your comments on why this build has problems vs 1 stalk harass and 2rax terran,but how would you rate this build in ZvZ?
Hard to say. If your opponent goes Hatch first, and the distance is rather short, and you scout it in time so you can save larvae for when the pool finishes, i can see the build being pretty effective.
Against 1 base play, i would say it is generally a bit behind, as it is rather difficult to get up an early expansion after one players opened 14g 14p (again depending on maps though). But then again, i already see a certain person demanding proof now, but im not going to invest countless hours into proving a person on the internet wrong, as this seems like a massive waste of time :p
I have a question, slightly off topic, for the op:
If in every thread made about the 11 overpool 18 hatchery says "it's only slightly behind the standard 14 hatch/15 pool", what is the reason for using this slightly less economic build?
On December 18 2010 21:47 Jeffbelittle wrote: I have a question, slightly off topic, for the op:
If in every thread made about the 11 overpool 18 hatchery says "it's only slightly behind the standard 14 hatch/15 pool", what is the reason for using this slightly less economic build?
much greater flexibility against very early cheesey shenanigans that you can't know about until well after your scouting drone arrives.
I think the question should be is 11pool-18hatch better than 14pool-hatch after you kill the pylon or engineering bay blocking your expo build, not is the 11pool-18hatch better than 14hatch-14pool build. Because lets be really honest that is what the 14hatch-14pool turns into if there is any delay in the hatch going down. Granted so does the 11p18h but you will see 2 lings a lot sooner to clear the natural expansion if there is something blocking it.
On December 18 2010 21:47 Jeffbelittle wrote: I have a question, slightly off topic, for the op:
If in every thread made about the 11 overpool 18 hatchery says "it's only slightly behind the standard 14 hatch/15 pool", what is the reason for using this slightly less economic build?
14 Hatch is susceptible to hatch blocking with a unit or ebay or pylon, thereby forcing you to get a very late pool anyway.
14 Hatch is susceptible to many forms of early pressure, including speedling all-ins, 2gate-zealots, and 2-rax marine-scv all ins.
14 Hatch does not have the flexibility of going all-in and putting early pressure if you scout your opponent going for a risky, low-unit opening (like 14 Hatch ).
On December 19 2010 03:52 Jeffbelittle wrote: Thanks! Taking that into consideration I'm going to play around with it more.
Know any reason we don't see this getting tossed around by Nestea, idra, fruitdealer, etc?
Because if you're confident enough that you can deal with anything that gets thrown at you early if you hatch-first, you absolutely should.
Edit: necessary insertion
If you're confident you can deal with anything that gets thrown at you early, *and* you never want to one-base all-in because you believe you will win a much higher percentage of the time by playing a long macro game, then you should always hatch first.
And we should not forget about the possibility that just maybe this build is not as good as some people try to make it look. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong, but so far no replay has been posted where people who actually play well use this build successfully.
On December 18 2010 13:04 genopath wrote: @jdseemoreglass
Please look at this replay its a 3-4 Roach Rush vs 11 pool. This is one of the scenarios I believe you do not cover in your OP. Long story short, I've lost the match. Clearly my ling scout missed the roaches on the way to my base but that would have given me 24 extra seconds in which I don't think I could have done much given the larva available. My gas even went down a little later than what your OP proposes for ZvZ.
In addition to what JD said, I wanted to note that you would have also died if your opponent didn't go Roaches but instead went Zerglings.
I tried your build on the ladder a few times. Iam a Middle-High Platinum Zerg and i keep getting wins. I can hardly be cheesed and can make a perfect macro game out of this build. Maybe its not the best build for Tournies but i think its really useful for laddering in High Plat - Middle Dia.
On December 19 2010 07:17 DarKFoRcE wrote: And we should not forget about the possibility that just maybe this build is not as good as some people try to make it look. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong, but so far no replay has been posted where people who actually play well use this build successfully.
I actually don't think the build is that good, but why don't you try it in some practice game and then post the replays here? I mean, you have nothing to lose, and if it turns out to be a good build, you can start using it.
I've been having a great deal of difficulty with this build. In an ideal world you could follow it step by step unharassed by your opponent before transitioning into a high tech more powerful army. I know the emphasis of this build is on flexibility but it seems like I just can't afford to lose any drones or make any buildings, all I can do is react with more units or ditch the expand for some heavy 1 Base play and expand when I attack later on.
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. These games are always about finding the balance between unit and drone production. If there is a significant discrepancy in units between players, an attack can end the game. So keep scouting.![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170612.jpg)
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