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On December 14 2010 20:35 Shikyo wrote:Darkforce is 3.2k Zerg on EU. http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/175901/aTnDarKFoRcEThat being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches. Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random. You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time). If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy. Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure. Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21. I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way.
On a map like Xel naga caverns you cannot defend against stalker harras with 1 stalker. and XNC happens to be one of the maps where this is pretty common, and it is a map that is played quite often has it is rarely voted down by P or Z. Getting gas so late also makes you extremely vulnerable to very fast 4 gate stalker allins (like for example socke plays in PvP).
Also, building a spine crawler that early is also quite costly, so why not just get the zergling speed earlier (you need that anyway)? - Ling speed will also allow you to scout for proxy pylons faster, and it will allow you to intercept scouting probes, leaving your opponent in the dark much more (it takes ages to kill scouts with slow lings).
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On December 14 2010 20:53 mansnicks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 08:52 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Im not sure if i missread something or whether you editted your post afterwards, but how in gods name can you scout whether your opponent is going for what you call "gateway pressure" or a stargate? Of course, when you know what your opponent will do within the next minutes it is easy to counter, but any decent protoss will deny this information.
Furthermore, if your opponent scouts you getting a late gas, he will pressure with his first stalker, whats your plan to defend against this?
The thing is, you cant just have such different plans depending on what your opponent will do in the future, as it is not possible to know what will come. Question - overlord sacrifice at 4:45 (best time vs toss). How could a toss denie that scouting information? :o At that time he has max 1-2 stalkers normally. Can't really kill the overlord fast enough to not let him see what the protoss is doing :/
Even a single stalker kills a slow overlord pretty quickly, even on XNC you are not guaranteed to see his tech. I completely stopped sacrificing overlords personally, i just try to take a peek at the edges of the baes sometimes.
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On December 14 2010 10:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
So I did some testing because I was curious about the gas timings...
IdrA's MLG build vs Terran reaches 100 gas around the 4:20 mark.
The 11 Overpool 18 Hatch build reaches 100 gas around the 4:32 mark. At which supply did you take the gas for 11OP18H?
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On December 14 2010 22:03 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I completely stopped sacrificing overlords personally, i just try to take a peek at the edges of the baes sometimes. Do you also quit suiciding overlords with speed? How do you scout if he techs to dark templar? I am always afraid of DTs.
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On December 14 2010 20:35 Shikyo wrote:
I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way. At which supply do you build the overlord for 12-pool? 9, or 10?
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On December 17 2010 01:06 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 22:03 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I completely stopped sacrificing overlords personally, i just try to take a peek at the edges of the baes sometimes. Do you also quit suiciding overlords with speed? How do you scout if he techs to dark templar? I am always afraid of DTs.
No of course i will use overlords to scout once i have speed, but then you will actually very likely find his tech, instead of just a smal chance of seeing a a part of what he has. How do you scout a correctly placed dark shrine when he has 1 stalker looking for overlords?
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On December 17 2010 01:19 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:06 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2010 22:03 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I completely stopped sacrificing overlords personally, i just try to take a peek at the edges of the baes sometimes. Do you also quit suiciding overlords with speed? How do you scout if he techs to dark templar? I am always afraid of DTs. No of course i will use overlords to scout once i have speed, but then you will actually very likely find his tech, instead of just a smal chance of seeing a a part of what he has. How do you scout a correctly placed dark shrine when he has 1 stalker looking for overlords? I try to move the slowerlord around his base without getting detected and then fly into the rear of his base. At least in the newb leagues I play, I sometime can see some starports or a templar tech he tries to hide.
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On December 14 2010 21:54 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 20:35 Shikyo wrote:Darkforce is 3.2k Zerg on EU. http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/175901/aTnDarKFoRcEThat being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches. Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random. You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time). If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy. Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure. Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21. I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way. On a map like Xel naga caverns you cannot defend against stalker harras with 1 stalker. and XNC happens to be one of the maps where this is pretty common, and it is a map that is played quite often has it is rarely voted down by P or Z. Getting gas so late also makes you extremely vulnerable to very fast 4 gate stalker allins (like for example socke plays in PvP). Also, building a spine crawler that early is also quite costly, so why not just get the zergling speed earlier (you need that anyway)? - Ling speed will also allow you to scout for proxy pylons faster, and it will allow you to intercept scouting probes, leaving your opponent in the dark much more (it takes ages to kill scouts with slow lings).
Yep, of course you'll need to alter your strategy depending on the map. On Xel'Naga an earlier gas will be a good idea, and it doesn't really alter your build much at all. Can get the gas at 16 and it still won't delay your hatch timing much at all. This still won't be in time to defend vs the fast Stalkers, though. I've found it viable to just have one crawler protect my nat ramp while the Stalkers pew pew my expansion(might need to pull drones) and hold out until ling speed.
Of course I'm nowhere near as good as you are so maybe this doesn't work like I said against better opponents.
For 12pool, actually it seems like extractor trick - 11ov - drone after ov comes out and then pool right after might be the best way to go about it. Gives a really fast pool and if you do the early droning perfectly(not too difficult), you'll only delay your larvae for about half a second, on some maps not at all.
The crawler, by the way, I'd build when my first inject is around halfway done. You're going to want your second Queen here as well, and then your larvae come out. The flaw with building a crawler like this is the fact that you'll be supply blocked at 26/26 for a little while(ov at about 25/26), but it's not so bad since you're going to get a tumor with your second 25 energy.
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The 11 pool build is very powerful, and if the number crunching is to be believed, it can macro nearly just as well as any other macro orientated build. In the thread I was reading on TL when the build is focused entirely for drone production and expanding against other builds like 14 hatch 15 pool or 14 pool 15 hatch or whatever, it was like 97% as effective. Two or three hundred minerals behind after the first 5,000 or so minerals collected is just fine.
Zerg isn't all about money and expansions, larva timing can be extremely crucial. I would really like to see how much larva this build can mass at certain time marks against certain timing pushes, and I would like to see how scouting at different times (taking a drone off production), building lings at x supply or a spine crawler can effect the economy. My experience from using this build pretty much every game is that it is very flexible but more then a little finicky. Interruptions in drone timing, or losing an early overlord can reek havoc on this build economically within the early game. After about 35 supply it doesn't matter what you opened with if you scored a second base with drone saturation. I think against terrans that go two racks and bunker rush, it can actually be more beneficial to go 15 hatch 15 pool and try and get up the natural more quickly, so you can use drone micro and a spine crawler to stop the bunker rush and guarantee an economic advantage. If they can block off your ramp, even if you have a few lings, then you are much worse off in that one example. More testing needs to be done for sure.
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On December 17 2010 01:53 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 21:54 DarKFoRcE wrote:On December 14 2010 20:35 Shikyo wrote:Darkforce is 3.2k Zerg on EU. http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/175901/aTnDarKFoRcEThat being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches. Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random. You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time). If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy. Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure. Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21. I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way. On a map like Xel naga caverns you cannot defend against stalker harras with 1 stalker. and XNC happens to be one of the maps where this is pretty common, and it is a map that is played quite often has it is rarely voted down by P or Z. Getting gas so late also makes you extremely vulnerable to very fast 4 gate stalker allins (like for example socke plays in PvP). Also, building a spine crawler that early is also quite costly, so why not just get the zergling speed earlier (you need that anyway)? - Ling speed will also allow you to scout for proxy pylons faster, and it will allow you to intercept scouting probes, leaving your opponent in the dark much more (it takes ages to kill scouts with slow lings). Yep, of course you'll need to alter your strategy depending on the map. On Xel'Naga an earlier gas will be a good idea, and it doesn't really alter your build much at all. Can get the gas at 16 and it still won't delay your hatch timing much at all. This still won't be in time to defend vs the fast Stalkers, though. I've found it viable to just have one crawler protect my nat ramp while the Stalkers pew pew my expansion(might need to pull drones) and hold out until ling speed. Of course I'm nowhere near as good as you are so maybe this doesn't work like I said against better opponents. For 12pool, actually it seems like extractor trick - 11ov - drone after ov comes out and then pool right after might be the best way to go about it. Gives a really fast pool and if you do the early droning perfectly(not too difficult), you'll only delay your larvae for about half a second, on some maps not at all. The crawler, by the way, I'd build when my first inject is around halfway done. You're going to want your second Queen here as well, and then your larvae come out. The flaw with building a crawler like this is the fact that you'll be supply blocked at 26/26 for a little while(ov at about 25/26), but it's not so bad since you're going to get a tumor with your second 25 energy.
I think youre in for alot of trouble going 16 Gas after 11 Pool on XNC, as this gets gas even later than a 14 pool 16 gas build, which is already way too late imo. WhiteRa for example always Chronoboosts his first stalker out and will scout your Gastiming and thus know when speed finishes. It is extremely annoying to have to build a ton of pretty much useless Lings because you get harrased by 1-2 Stalkers, which you basically cannot kill without speed.
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On December 17 2010 02:41 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:53 Shikyo wrote:On December 14 2010 21:54 DarKFoRcE wrote:On December 14 2010 20:35 Shikyo wrote:Darkforce is 3.2k Zerg on EU. http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/175901/aTnDarKFoRcEThat being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches. Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random. You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time). If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy. Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure. Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21. I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way. On a map like Xel naga caverns you cannot defend against stalker harras with 1 stalker. and XNC happens to be one of the maps where this is pretty common, and it is a map that is played quite often has it is rarely voted down by P or Z. Getting gas so late also makes you extremely vulnerable to very fast 4 gate stalker allins (like for example socke plays in PvP). Also, building a spine crawler that early is also quite costly, so why not just get the zergling speed earlier (you need that anyway)? - Ling speed will also allow you to scout for proxy pylons faster, and it will allow you to intercept scouting probes, leaving your opponent in the dark much more (it takes ages to kill scouts with slow lings). Yep, of course you'll need to alter your strategy depending on the map. On Xel'Naga an earlier gas will be a good idea, and it doesn't really alter your build much at all. Can get the gas at 16 and it still won't delay your hatch timing much at all. This still won't be in time to defend vs the fast Stalkers, though. I've found it viable to just have one crawler protect my nat ramp while the Stalkers pew pew my expansion(might need to pull drones) and hold out until ling speed. Of course I'm nowhere near as good as you are so maybe this doesn't work like I said against better opponents. For 12pool, actually it seems like extractor trick - 11ov - drone after ov comes out and then pool right after might be the best way to go about it. Gives a really fast pool and if you do the early droning perfectly(not too difficult), you'll only delay your larvae for about half a second, on some maps not at all. The crawler, by the way, I'd build when my first inject is around halfway done. You're going to want your second Queen here as well, and then your larvae come out. The flaw with building a crawler like this is the fact that you'll be supply blocked at 26/26 for a little while(ov at about 25/26), but it's not so bad since you're going to get a tumor with your second 25 energy. I think youre in for alot of trouble going 16 Gas after 11 Pool on XNC, as this gets gas even later than a 14 pool 16 gas build, which is already way too late imo. WhiteRa for example always Chronoboosts his first stalker out and will scout your Gastiming and thus know when speed finishes. It is extremely annoying to have to build a ton of pretty much useless Lings because you get harrased by 1-2 Stalkers, which you basically cannot kill without speed.
Maybe instead of doing an extractor trick we should just let the extractor finish at 10/10... Gas doesn't get much quicker than that lol....
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Then you will heavily lack minerals though to use your larvae, get a queen and research speed, which is the reason why i dont like the build.
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Just get the extractor at 13 and pull off gas after speed if you really want same timings as a 14g 14p.
First stalker comes out around 4:10 and you get your natural with a crawler at 5:05(going lategas), giving the walking distances and some delaying and such, it really should be all right, and has been for me. 12pool can do the same thing as 14g 14p, just better econ
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DarkForce - thank you for your input. Always love reading knowledgeable Z posts from individuals who know what they are talking about. The bigger picture becomes clearer.
Cheers.
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with 14g 14p you have around 325-350 minerals when the pool finishes, which is exactly what you need to get 2 pairs of lings (100 minerals) 1 queen (150) and speed (100). Getting the Gas or Pool or both earlier than that thus seems completely counterintuitive to me, as you cannot build everything you want anyway when the pool finishes.
I mean, i dunno how many games you have played, but i prefer intuition/experience and testing in real games over isolated models and statistics. If you are more interested in the problems with modelling and statistics, i can recommend the books "Fooled by Randomness" and "The Black Swan" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.
Im not saying the 11 Pool build has absolutely no uses, but it seems like the weaknesses become apparent once you start discussing how you adapt to certain circumstances, like early stalker aggression in ZvP.
On December 17 2010 03:47 Shikyo wrote:
Just get the extractor at 13 and pull off gas after speed if you really want same timings as a 14g 14p.
First stalker comes out around 4:10 and you get your natural with a crawler at 5:05, giving the walking distances and some delaying and such, it really should be all right, and has been for me. 12pool can do the same thing as 14g 14p, just better econ
Doesnt change what i critiziced in the post above yours.
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Well yeah, if you really want the superfast speed 14g 14p is probably better. I just don't think that should be a necessity, though it might be on Xel'Naga. As I said, thus far I haven't had problems with delaying the gas so long, but I probably don't play vs players that are good enough.
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Yes, most Protoss players, even in diamond, dont look for gastiming and react accordingly when seeing a late gas. I also got gas at like 22ish supply for a long time, but i rather get it earlier and sacrifice a little eco instead of having to build like 10+ zerglings just because 1-2 stalkers come. There are even some super fast 4 gates which will come before you have speed when you get late gas, and when you have 6 stalkers knocking at your door you really want to have speed.
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Personally the times I've come up against this build I wasn't too impressed. Hatch blocking or scv marine rushing really hurts this build, but I suppose it could have some uses on really, really big maps.
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On December 17 2010 05:30 Fargoth wrote:
Personally the times I've come up against this build I wasn't too impressed. Hatch blocking or scv marine rushing really hurts this build, but I suppose it could have some uses on really, really big maps.
I pretty strongly disagree there. 11 pool allows for a wicked fast queen, so you can start larva hording early. After the first 26 supply there is enough drone production to keep up constant lings, even on one base. The timing for a scv bunker rush is almost identical to the time it takes to put down a second hatch and get two queens. The transition from droning to rush defense is really fast at about the 35 supply mark, which, with larva inject, is going to give you about 12 larva every thirty seconds. As a zvt opening, this is very strong. The pros say to go 15 hatch 14 pool, but I don't understand that logic personally. An early queen is less of a resource, gives you time to cancel a hatchery in the event of a super early marine push ( < 26 food, after that both queens can be out an a handful of queens + drones can easily hold of 4 marines and 3 scvs) and with the ability to hit larva inject early you can drone up fast and punish quick with lots of lings. I have experiment a lot with this build, and as a ZvT I have a hard time finding the flaws.
This build is not quite as good with zvz or zvp. Trying to get down an early extractor is awkward because the build is pretty lopsided towards mass larva to make up for a little less drone production. I have been working with it a little myself, no expert gamer, just trying to practice a strong opening. I think 14 pool into extractors and a roach warren would be better if you feel early pressure is likely, 15 hatch into 14 pool if you feel safe in these match ups. It is tough though, because you can go for a 7RR very easily with this build if you can scout an early expand from protoss or zerg. Jungle basin is one map where a blind 7RR from 11 pool is 9 of 10 times going to work out just great in zvp and zvz where they go hatch first or delayed pool.
This build also has some problems with early hellion harrass. You need to go two base pretty quick for an eco style build in order to make use of all the larrva, which spreads out the few zerglings you have. It is also awkward trying to find a time to get down a spine crawler for defense, and it is difficult to fit in an early gas for zergling speed too. The window is short though, after 35 or so supply it is quite possible to get zergling speed and layer, and begin thinking banneling speed too or even quicker mutas.
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I'm curious, do you aways build lings between 11pool and 18 hatch, because if you do, then you fall behind compared to 14 hatch builds. If you don't build at least 4, then it becomes extremely hard to hold 2 rax or even a cannon contain. I'm curious as to how well you can hold it without falling behind in econ.
Also, I'm quite confident that 14 hatch can hold this build off on maps whose natural aren't completely open. 1-2 spines, 2 queens on the ramp and a couple lings will hold it off long enough.
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EPT
