|
On December 14 2010 09:05 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 06:13 DarKFoRcE wrote:
vs Hatch first: its probably more viable to immidiately save larvae and build lings once the pool is done (depends on distance) and do damage to his eco before his lings spawn. Your suggestion is just a speedling allin which can work if the opponent is too greedy and/or doesnt scout correctly, but can be rather easily fended off with queens blocking the ramp at first, 1-2 spine crawlers and then added roaches.
In my experience the first few lings produced will reach the opponent just in time for his own lings to finish. The real advantage in my opinion is the earlier queen inject and faster zergling speed. Also, I don't quite see what is stopping you from getting lings once the pool is done. In the replays I posted I pumped lings pretty consistently and I don't think my opponents were particularly greedy. Also, I don't quite see how queens on the ramp will defend against speedling all-in. Either the hatch will die putting the opponent severely behind, or the lings will be able to attack and kill the queens without taking much loss. It is quite possible my opponents had no idea what they were doing and defended terribly. Without actual evidence I can't really reach a conclusion on the viability of defending this attack.
Congratulations on the wins in the OP, but the timings on your replays could easily have been any other BO in the Zerg playbook.
Plus your opponents on the second replay did make game-losing mistakes. In the second game he could have started getting speed at 4:30 (at which point you should be scouting your opponent to see if you should take guys off gas to pump just lings or keep them in there). At 5:00 he saw your lings leaving your base but waited a long time to make lings of his own (and supply blocked himself)! Plus note he had 4 more drones than you. 8 lings at any point in those battles would have turned the tide around (even though I believe he could have won even without them).
In the first game he had 6 more drones than you (AND had no forward overlord to see your lings coming). Even though he was getting hammered and had no tech going, he never took guys off gas!
This doesn't even come CLOSE to being enough for you to be able to say "This is also pretty much an auto-win.".
I know TL has a major problem these days with what zatic called the "bandwagon effect," where a pro says something and everyone in the thread agrees and attacks anyone who disagrees until the entire forum has a single mindset.
I totally agree, why else would people disagree with you?
|
The obvious weakness is your weak economy early on which will slow down your expansion and leave you vulnerable to Hellions and Stalkers. To fight this you need either quick Speedlings or Roaches (only vs Hellions) off one base which will further slow down your expansion, all in all resulting in a weaker economy than if you'd gone with a normal 14 Pool.
I'll run it through in YABOT tomorrow to show you some solid data.
|
Erg. That following up by Terran into his 2 Rax timing was kinda meh. You can get a tank out much faster off even a all-inish 2 Rax Expand. You just 2 base ling/bling him to death.
I guess that defense of the 2 Rax was okay since you had lings out but to be honest, pulling all your drones doesn't really illustrate that your build validly holds off a 2 Rax better than 14/15. Maybe it does it better on Steppes, I'm not really sure but if the Terran was a touch better and not so FotM, you would have been in trouble.
Additionally, I could have straight Teched to a 2 port banshee all-in instead of expoing because your econ was down the toilet. ^_^
|
So I did some testing because I was curious about the gas timings...
IdrA's MLG build vs Terran reaches 100 gas around the 4:20 mark.
The 11 Overpool 18 Hatch build reaches 100 gas around the 4:32 mark.
The fastest I could build a hellion with a standard opening (gas during barracks) was 4:54.
Interpret this how you will.
If anyone would like the evidence I can provide replays.
Also, in regard to the other statements, I would love to practice this build against different strategies with a practice partner. If any diamond players are interested, send me a PM. Then we can reach some evidence regarding the builds viability against 2rax plays, stalker rushes, etc. Of course the evidence will be easy to reject since we aren't code S, but I am at least curious to see the results.
|
On December 14 2010 09:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Erg. That following up by Terran into his 2 Rax timing was kinda meh. You can get a tank out much faster off even a all-inish 2 Rax Expand. You just 2 base ling/bling him to death.
I guess that defense of the 2 Rax was okay since you had lings out but to be honest, pulling all your drones doesn't really illustrate that your build validly holds off a 2 Rax better than 14/15. Maybe it does it better on Steppes, I'm not really sure but if the Terran was a touch better and not so FotM, you would have been in trouble.
Additionally, I could have straight Teched to a 2 port banshee all-in instead of expoing because your econ was down the toilet. ^_^
Well this is the first game I've encountered with a 2rax play. Unless people are willing to put in some effort and post their own games or practice with me, then we will have no choice but to be content with the data we have.
|
On December 14 2010 10:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
So I did some testing because I was curious about the gas timings...
IdrA's MLG build vs Terran reaches 100 gas around the 4:20 mark.
The 11 Overpool 18 Hatch build reaches 100 gas around the 4:32 mark.
The fastest I could build a hellion with a standard opening (gas during barracks) was 4:54.
Interpret this how you will.
If anyone would like the evidence I can provide replays.
Also, in regard to the other statements, I would love to practice this build against different strategies with a practice partner. If any diamond players are interested, send me a PM. Then we can reach some evidence regarding the builds viability against 2rax plays, stalker rushes, etc. Of course the evidence will be easy to reject since we aren't code S, but I am at least curious to see the results.
idra also gets gas late. the thing is, against hellions he can plant a spine crawler at the natural way earlier than you can, as he gets the hatchery, and thus creep, faster (i play it this way too).
|
On December 14 2010 09:53 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
The obvious weakness is your weak economy early on which will slow down your expansion and leave you vulnerable to Hellions and Stalkers. To fight this you need either quick Speedlings or Roaches (only vs Hellions) off one base which will further slow down your expansion, all in all resulting in a weaker economy than if you'd gone with a normal 14 Pool.
I'll run it through in YABOT tomorrow to show you some solid data.
You're worried about economy... so you choose a late pool which is stuck with fewer drones overall?!?!
|
On December 14 2010 09:05 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 06:13 DarKFoRcE wrote:
vs Hatch first: its probably more viable to immidiately save larvae and build lings once the pool is done (depends on distance) and do damage to his eco before his lings spawn. Your suggestion is just a speedling allin which can work if the opponent is too greedy and/or doesnt scout correctly, but can be rather easily fended off with queens blocking the ramp at first, 1-2 spine crawlers and then added roaches.
In my experience the first few lings produced will reach the opponent just in time for his own lings to finish. The real advantage in my opinion is the earlier queen inject and faster zergling speed. Also, I don't quite see what is stopping you from getting lings once the pool is done. In the replays I posted I pumped lings pretty consistently and I don't think my opponents were particularly greedy. Also, I don't quite see how queens on the ramp will defend against speedling all-in. Either the hatch will die putting the opponent severely behind, or the lings will be able to attack and kill the queens without taking much loss. It is quite possible my opponents had no idea what they were doing and defended terribly. Without actual evidence I can't really reach a conclusion on the viability of defending this attack.
Queen block is because there should be 1/2 spine crawlers placed in the nat. Then you dance your lings around while blocking the ramp thus he has to continually change between attacking the queens/spine/zerglings and with good micro the defender can fend it off or delay long enough to get out banes/roaches to deal with it.
Some of the issues I think people are having with the way you are arguing is because you base a lot of the argument from experience but it's rather hard for a non-pro to use experience as a basis for an argument.
|
On December 14 2010 10:04 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 09:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Erg. That following up by Terran into his 2 Rax timing was kinda meh. You can get a tank out much faster off even a all-inish 2 Rax Expand. You just 2 base ling/bling him to death.
I guess that defense of the 2 Rax was okay since you had lings out but to be honest, pulling all your drones doesn't really illustrate that your build validly holds off a 2 Rax better than 14/15. Maybe it does it better on Steppes, I'm not really sure but if the Terran was a touch better and not so FotM, you would have been in trouble.
Additionally, I could have straight Teched to a 2 port banshee all-in instead of expoing because your econ was down the toilet. ^_^ Well this is the first game I've encountered with a 2rax play. Unless people are willing to put in some effort and post their own games or practice with me, then we will have no choice but to be content with the data we have.
Here:
+ Show Spoiler +
2 Rax FEs from about 2 months ago. Just imagine that every Raven is 2 Tanks and about 1/3rd of the marine count is half the number of marauders. No Kyrix style 2 base bust but those aren't that game breaking if you get tanks and enough buildings.
The important timings for the 2 Rax are 4-5 min for the initial poke/SCV all-in and 8-11 min for either 2 separate pushes or a single massive push. Most people aren't as good at marine micro as KME but uber micro tricks shouldn't be factored into build discussions.
|
On December 14 2010 10:25 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 10:04 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 14 2010 09:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Erg. That following up by Terran into his 2 Rax timing was kinda meh. You can get a tank out much faster off even a all-inish 2 Rax Expand. You just 2 base ling/bling him to death.
I guess that defense of the 2 Rax was okay since you had lings out but to be honest, pulling all your drones doesn't really illustrate that your build validly holds off a 2 Rax better than 14/15. Maybe it does it better on Steppes, I'm not really sure but if the Terran was a touch better and not so FotM, you would have been in trouble.
Additionally, I could have straight Teched to a 2 port banshee all-in instead of expoing because your econ was down the toilet. ^_^ Well this is the first game I've encountered with a 2rax play. Unless people are willing to put in some effort and post their own games or practice with me, then we will have no choice but to be content with the data we have. Here: + Show Spoiler +2 Rax FEs from about 2 months ago. Just imagine that every Raven is 2 Tanks and about 1/3rd of the marine count is half the number of marauders. No Kyrix style 2 base bust but those aren't that game breaking if you get tanks and enough buildings. The important timings for the 2 Rax are 4-5 min for the initial poke/SCV all-in and 8-11 min for either 2 separate pushes or a single massive push. Most people aren't as good at marine micro as KME but uber micro tricks shouldn't be factored into build discussions.
Wow, thanks a lot for the reps! I will certainly look through them later and see what conclusions we can draw from the games.
|
If thats the first two rax, ever faced a 2 rax -> bunker blocking your ramp to force you to stay in base as terran expos?
|
On December 14 2010 11:52 iAmJeffReY wrote:
If thats the first two rax, ever faced a 2 rax -> bunker blocking your ramp to force you to stay in base as terran expos?
I used to face this when I went hatch first. I haven't faced it once going pool first.
How about you?
|
I haven't found a good use for the build in ZvZ. It does win against 6 pool, but it's inferior to 14 hatch in every other situation where you take your expo. In particular, it's extremely difficult to hold a 1 base attack because your spines are late (you also don't get creep up to your ramp in time to put a building there, which helps). Your response to hatch first is basically the same as hatch first mass ling, which isn't an 'instant win' by any means, only it's worse because you get a late gas. If you don't take your expo you're stuck doing an inferior roach open or a really inferior ling open.
In ZvT I find the standard build and my original variation (extractor trick to get lings out at 18, hatch on 19) doesn't do great against hellions on account of the late gas. You can put up a crawler in time if you start it early at your base and move it but you can't get your second queen and use all your inject larva if you do, at least if you want your gas at any reasonable time. So I've been going 11 overpool, with a queen, extractor, and set of lings immediately as the pool finishes. I skip the drone scout and just scout with the initial lings, killing off any hatch block/scout and taking my hatch. This way, ling speed is not very late. (You can take drones off gas once you hit 100) The downside is a pretty miniscule 75 mineral delay on your hatch (and it's only a delay if they weren't blocking) and more importantly you can't afford an early second queen.
I've been doing the same thing against toss - again, without relatively early gas stalker pressure is really obnoxious.
|
I compared 11 Pool 14 Gas with 14 Gas 14 Pool by measuring their situation at the 7min mark. I found that 11 Pool had managed to produce 2 more Larva, both of which had to be invested in Zerglings - you have to fend off Hellions without a Spine for a longer time with 11 Pool. However, more interesting was that the 11 Pool was sitting on 400 less minerals in the bank.
|
On December 14 2010 19:26 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
I compared 11 Pool 14 Gas with 14 Gas 14 Pool by measuring their situation at the 7min mark. I found that 11 Pool had managed to produce 2 more Larva, both of which had to be invested in Zerglings - you have to fend off Hellions without a Spine for a longer time with 11 Pool. However, more interesting was that the 11 Pool was sitting on 400 less minerals in the bank.
Are you positive you built all the exact same stuff with the two builds? 100 mins are already accounted for by the two extra sets of lings.
Having done sort of a ridiculous amount of testing on the topic myself, and having done mathematical breakdowns of exactly where 11pool is behind, how much it's behind, and why, I have a really hard time believing it's that far behind unless your 11pool execution is sub-optimal and you're comparing it to a very much practiced 14gas/14pool. (although to be fair, all my testing has been using drone races that never take gas, which isn't exactly the most realistic of tests, but that seems to be the best way to measure a build's maximum potential economy)
Happen to still have the replays? I'd be interested in seeing them.
|
I'm a 2.1k diamond zerg and i have bin using this build sience i first saw it on this forum about 2-3 threds ago.
I realy have had my ups and downs with it.
If i face toss i go something like:
11 OL
11 pool
drones to 14 if small map and 15 if slighly bigger.
when pool is done i build lings from the larvas + queen + extractor trick and one more set of lings then ol with next larva. the lings are usually about 50-60% done when his scouting probe comes then i kill it and sometimes fake a roach warren before i kill it then take expand (wich he doesnt see right away) and run to him pokeing at ramp and try to see anything that lets me know his build.
My scouting ol is also placed somewere around his base so i can do i overlord sac later on if i cant see his tech.
From here i go gas before my exp is done and maynard like 4 drones and put up a spine at exp (and ofcourse another queen). Now i pump drones untill i see any kind of aggression.
Now i build lair with my first 100 gas and then i saw overlord to see his tech.
If he does does 4 gate i build 3 more spines + roach warren and uppgrade burrow asap and just pump drones, as long as i didnt loose massive to his push and micro well he will have to go back when my burrow is done and make robo, then i aply some preassure with roach while taking 3rd expand and uppgrade zerglingspeed and make a spire asap. then its all up to mass ling mass mutt marass (i sometimes ad a baneling nest and get drop if my gas alow it to drop some banes in probes while harassing mith mutta).
If the toss makes stargate i had 2 queen and just tech to 2-3 hyds and then burrow + roach, this is the time when u can really punnish him... he will not have observer so you can abuse burrow roach.
If he makes 3 gate robo or some kind of fast robo build i will get overseer asap to kill his observer then mass uppg. ling (and slow roach if needed for early preassure) then mutta/corruptor.
If FE with photon, then just the same burrow roach but slightly slower as i take my 3rd but not droneing it up right away.
It works most of the times, cuz if the protoss does anything els then robo in begining you will be able to stand your ground with burrow roach, and possible harass and/or even win with it. and if he does early observer / immortal / collosus then just make mutta asap, cuz immortal sux against lings and cant shoot air 
vs terr it is the same but fastling speed to mutta/baneling/speedling and possible 2-3 roach in beggining just to nullify those helions.
If terr does banashe just 2 extra queen and sverseer then ure safe.
z v z:
here i have some slight problem. what i do is i have my 18 hatch inbase, and make gas at 13 (just for the fast ling speed or a early +atack uppgrade for roach/hyd) then if he expand i take 1 drone away from gas to minerals uppgrade speed pump lings outisde is base and when speed is about 50% i make banelingnest and start to harass is expand with speedling and some baneling to kill his lings (if he has any) if he doesnt have have roach i go for drones with bling and kill everything els with ling. If he holds is ramp with roach, u realy need to be fast to transfe to roach play and make a +1uppgrade asap and try to expand asap.
If it becomes a mid game play i make mass roach/hyds with nass uppgrade then go for infestor.
only problem i have had in this matchup with 11 overpool is a timing window when i have taken my expand and started roach,. Even tho i have superior uppgrades on roach but just slightly smaller roach numbers then my oponent he kills me, i have even tryed to fast roach myself with fast uppgrade with this build against another one base fast roach zerg, and even tho i have better uppgrades he seem to have such numbers of roach that he just runs me over.
i hope someone can find then strenght to read through this wall of text and find some sense in it
i have tryed this BO in about 40-50 ladder games so i have some experience
thanks for all responses!
/R
|
Darkforce is 3.2k Zerg on EU.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/175901/aTnDarKFoRcE
That being said, your builds are totally wrong for the most part. I like to do 12pool instead of 11pool but the idea is pretty much the same. In ZvZ, I'd just scout with my first 2 zerglings and react from there. However, you need to start with one of the few options in mind here: Banelings or Roaches.
Banelings I'd use on Scrap and Blistering and other maps with long rush distances/difficult-to-defend ramps. Roaches I'd use on other maps, mostly like Steppes but I also use them on Metal etc. because of the way they force a macro game and are less random.
You must choose to do one of these builds before you can scout your opponent... with Banelings you get gas at 13 and then speed -> baneling nest and then just keep spamming lings and banelings until the game is over, pretty much. With Roaches the gas is on 15 and I just do the build Machine described where you hold ramp with 6 Roaches and then tech to lair and do a speed-+1range-burrow timing attack(This kills every fast expansions that's not like 15hatch, and even muta tech assuming you scout it in time).
If you scout a 15hatch, you can expand on 18 and actually be ahead because you can make just drones and your opponent will most likely invest heavily on spine crawlers and zergling, while you can get more drones out. This is where this 11/12pool build really shines, in my opinion. Of course you can also do a baneling allin if you feel like that'd be better, also remember to instantly cancel speed / baneling nest if you scout 15hatch in time so that you can get a lead in economy.
Against both 2rax and the early stalker harrass, you can just build an early spine crawler in your main, and walk it down to your nat in order to plant it as soon as the creep comes up. The timing works just fine, I'm not sure why people commenting haven't thought about this? It doesn't even come up too much later than with a hatch-first, easily in time for dealing with stalker pressure.
Vs Terran I'd get gas at about 18, vs Protoss on 20 or 21.
I still think 12pool is superior to 11pool in pretty much every way.
|
Here's the data from a more detailed test where I minded the execution more.
11 Pool 14 Gas @ 7:00
Supply:48/60
Inject Progress:27/40 -> Add 5.4 Larva
Minerals: 409
Gas: 128
Expansion Complete: 5:52
14 Gas 14 Pool @ 7:01
Supply:51/60
Inject Progress:33/40 -> Add 6.6 Larva
Minerals: 389
Gas: 108
Expansion Complete: 5:30
Replay
Replay Notes:
I went for 4 Zerglings with the 14 Gas build and 6 with the 11 Pool, I resumed mining gas at 5:10 with both builds. I made a Spine Crawler when the expansion was at 50% with both builds. 14 Gas also gives you earlier Zergling Speed, against Hellions it won't matter, but against Stalkers it would.
Also, in a real game I'd probably need 2 Spine Crawlers, more Zerglings and a third Queen and a second Extractor when starting Lair. However, 11 Pool wouldn't be able to spend all its early Larva if I got all of that.
The only situation where an 11 Pool would be better than a 14 Pool would be against a 2 Rax all-in where all SCVs are pulled. However, we still don't know whether it can hold such a rush or not.
|
On December 14 2010 08:52 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Im not sure if i missread something or whether you editted your post afterwards, but how in gods name can you scout whether your opponent is going for what you call "gateway pressure" or a stargate? Of course, when you know what your opponent will do within the next minutes it is easy to counter, but any decent protoss will deny this information.
Furthermore, if your opponent scouts you getting a late gas, he will pressure with his first stalker, whats your plan to defend against this?
The thing is, you cant just have such different plans depending on what your opponent will do in the future, as it is not possible to know what will come.
Question - overlord sacrifice at 4:45 (best time vs toss). How could a toss denie that scouting information? :o
At that time he has max 1-2 stalkers normally. Can't really kill the overlord fast enough to not let him see what the protoss is doing :/
|
On December 14 2010 20:53 mansnicks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 08:52 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Im not sure if i missread something or whether you editted your post afterwards, but how in gods name can you scout whether your opponent is going for what you call "gateway pressure" or a stargate? Of course, when you know what your opponent will do within the next minutes it is easy to counter, but any decent protoss will deny this information.
Furthermore, if your opponent scouts you getting a late gas, he will pressure with his first stalker, whats your plan to defend against this?
The thing is, you cant just have such different plans depending on what your opponent will do in the future, as it is not possible to know what will come. Question - overlord sacrifice at 4:45 (best time vs toss). How could a toss denie that scouting information? :o At that time he has max 1-2 stalkers normally. Can't really kill the overlord fast enough to not let him see what the protoss is doing :/
If the main is large enough or his tech hidden well enough he can easily kill it in time. Of course he can aslo proxy his tech. You are never guaranteed to scout what your opponent is up to, but you can certainly attempt to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164246.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164247.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164248.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164249.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164250.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164253.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164252.jpg)
