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On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS.
First of all not every zerg gets hydras. Second they are great against mutas. It may take 4 or 5 storms but mutas are a pain to deal with. They are fine as is.
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templars are a great transition for blink stalker/heavy gateway unit build. They take fungals out of the picture (with good micro), punish massing "trash"(just like colos), and can allow you to break a muta contain by having a few at home.
In reality though, ZvP games just dont last long enough for these uses to come into fruition. You will usally win on the blink push against susceptible builds, or you will get roach all in'd and either defend or fall.
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I feel that templar/archons are far more useful against muta/ling/roach strats than any sort of air based play. Phoenix just don't do well keeping air control vs corrupters, and once the skies are clear mutas and broodlords are devastating even with a decent number of stalkers.
On the other hand, an equal cost of HTs will decimate a flock of moderate sized flock of mutas, and the archons that are left will do extremely well against the zerglings left to mop up. Of course you don't want to waste storms on 2-3 mutas, but if you can consistently hit 7-8 per storm they will go down far more quickly than trying to chase them down with phoenix regardless of how well they are microed.
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psi storm eats up hydras i know that... lings get wrecked too but theyre so fast they can just run right out of it
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It's not as useful as something like Dark Templar/Stalker/Colossus, the reason being is that most Zerg players don't use detector units as much as Terran and Protoss players do, mainly because as far as I recall Zerg doesn't have much for undetectable units except for the burrowed units, so some players are less inclined to think about that unless they do a nice bit of other classes, or it becomes necessity, but if you have enough invisible units and mess up theirs, in the case of DT's then they're already at a disadvantage, where you can just flood in and finish them off. Templars to out the defensive structures, then Stalkers to out main structures and Colossi to do the unit destruction.
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They used to be pretty useful as a late game transition after colossi back when you could feedback corruptors. If you do use them w/o colossi though you pretty much have to have a very heavy immortal force to deal with roaches.
Another issue is templar usually go hand-in-hand with a heavy zealot army due to the being so gas-heavy whereas colossi mesh more with ranged units.
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Psy storm is bad against zerg. =! are you kidding me? Psy storm is good on everything the zerg has except for ultralisk.
............In sc2, AOE dmg is deadly. That's why psy storm is deadly to a group of clump of zerg units. bannelings are deadly. siege tanks are deadly. colossi are deadly. archon is deadly but no one use them[just think of archon as thor and start to use them]. Thor is deadly to air units. Ultra are deadly.
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As a Zerg I don't feel the effects of Psy Storm to badly with Roaches but at Dreamhack in the final I thought there was some very nice uses of Psy Storm - Using Storms to clear mineral lines must be the most annoying thing in the world.
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Hydra Corrupter would be a great late game army if it wasn't for storm. As it is now, hydras are not very good against Protoss in the late game which leaves Zergs anti air weak.
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I watched HuK beat NesTea on only gateway tech without transitioning out of it at all. He basically held everything off with psi storm and just kept making archons out of them. Archons do heavy damage and can take lots of damage from every zerg unit. I thought it was pretty awesome watching him use blink stalker with templar/archon to hold nestea off.
Just to describe this game: Close air on lost temple (nestea 12 o clock huk 3 o clock). It went to a 4 base v 5 base macro game. Huk used blink stalkers early to help secure expansions and ended up getting templar tech. He not only held off the big broodlord/ling/roach/hydra busting push, but also the 10 ultralisk re-inforcement push. All he did was use storm along the edge of his army to melt the lings and broodligs, and then again on the roaches and hydras. allowing the blink stalkers to finish off the broodlords once everything got cleared. As for the ultras, he just made a few archons and used blink stalkers to abuse terrain, and nestea ran out of stuff. Being able to hold off the most drastic tech switch in the game with templar-based play is quite impressive. He used storm to hold off all sorts of harass that nestea was attempting, and ended up winning (nestea also had about 16 spine crawlers for defense in the open area near the xel'naga tower). This was no fluke game or a pushover opponent. He did not waste his templar for just 1 storm, but made sure that he saved all of them for archons. They are very strong units, especially against zerg.
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On December 05 2010 14:07 DoctaD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS. Psi storm deals 80 damage which is a hell lot. I really dont understand how psi storm is bad against mutas, they litterally obliterate them because they are usually stacked.
agreed, on average it still damages all of the mutas for 10-20 damage minimum, against a stack of like 10 mutas that can wear them down rather quickly
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I can say as a 2000 Zerg i never see high templars that often.
However when I do they are amazing against hydralisks. Especially off creep.
Since they do like 80 dmg over 6 seconds its really not a bad ability if u know how to predict the enemy movements and include around 4 high templars would be quite effective.
Ive stilll havent seen a protoss use warp prism to call down a high templar at a zergs expo and storm the drones.
I guess there arent any creative Protoss players as of right now.
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I agree, psi storm is very deadly against muta / ling and its good against hydras too, but my main issue remains.
Why should i ever make psi storm, if air+Colossi is stronger(and safer against lategame zerg). I think psi storm would only be "better" against zerg, if the zerg uses much infester for fungal and neural, so feedback is a great thing to have anyway,
but i dont see this coming on the european server in the next time D;. I got only once totaly crushed by mass ling roach + some hydras and many infester. He managed to get all 3 Colossi of mine and my army INSTANTLY melted. in this game i should have switched to templars i guess.
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@HitStarcraft
True, storming drones is underused at the moment and infesteruse in zvp is underused too, i think we will see both more in the future. The Metagame will evolve!
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I like them vs hydra a lot. Basically no matter what units they have (cept ultra's) they can't really attack into an army with a ton of templar with storms ready, if they do they end up running around avoiding storms while stalkers pick them apart. Even though mutas shouldn't die to storms easily, they are so fragile that if they stay in the storm too long its quite punishing, and even you you move them away, they can't attack and move at the same time. If you get storm early (lets say 2 bases) there is a timing where a zerg can just run you over so you usually have to tech to something else first, just for breathing room.
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To me it's always felt that the aoe just isnt big enough
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I'm a 40th rank diamond zerg. And mass psi storms is the only thing that I NEVER win against.
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imo Psi storm is what get you through mid game, then you need to transition into robo/stargate tech in late game, because storm is not that good against fully upgrade roach, ultra or broodlord. However, with psi storm research early in mid game allow you to do storm drop and give you a chance to go into DT tech too.
I don't see HT as late game units in PvZ but is always nice to have like 4~5 HT in your army in late game.
*oh psi storm is always good at defending your base from harass with cannon
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On December 05 2010 14:28 Conrose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 14:07 DoctaD wrote:On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS. Psi storm deals 80 damage which is a hell lot. I really dont understand how psi storm is bad against mutas, they litterally obliterate them because they are usually stacked. The many times I've run into Psi Strom in in PvZ with my Mutas, I am usually able to pull them out of a Psi Storm before they take 20 damage thanks to their speed. They may usually be stacked, but they are also very fast and are habitually micro'ed even during a battle of macro to snipe high risk targets such as Immortals, Colossi, HT's or Sentries, so usually they'll not only see the storm the instant it is used, but also have them presently under their control to move them out immediately. replay please
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On December 05 2010 14:07 DoctaD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS. Psi storm deals 80 damage which is a hell lot. I really dont understand how psi storm is bad against mutas, they litterally obliterate them because they are usually stacked.
in SC2, Psi Storm does not stack
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EPT
