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Hello.
im a 2,5k Protoss Diamond (Europe) atm and i practiced a lot of PvZ lately. I think Psi storm is really not very useful in PvZ, and thats really weird for me, especially if i compare it with the PvZ in Broodwar.
Lets See:
Psi storm is not really great against Roaches, complete T3 Tech, Good Muta Micro etc. well i use psi storm sometimes if the opponent goes Muta/ling, then Blinkstalker + Second Expansion + Psi storm is a really good choice... but in 95% of my PvZ Games and the pvz games in the GSL theres no use of Psi Storm, i dont really like that . (cuz i love templars and their psi storm ;])
The ultimate combo in PvZ (200 Supply) seems to be Stalker / Colossi / Voidray, especially after 1.2 Patch, where Broodlords and Ultras die even faster against Voidrays. A Mothership is sometimes great too against Zerg for recalling Units back, or aggressive Vortex. (combined with Colossisplash its DEADLY like hell).
Well the real point of my post is: Psi storm seems to be not really important/strong in PvZ, in PvP its trash anyways and PvT there are a lot of Non-Psi builds too (Colossi/Stalker or Colossi Phoenix)
its kinda sad that tempalrs arent that important in the gameplay at the moment (at least in 1on1), what u guys think about that?
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I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS.
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btw i think its the same with speedlots in PvZ, u dont wanna have too much zealots in your 200 army (and u DONT need charge upgrade at all) cuz zealots die in 0,0001 seconds if they are attacking Roach/Hydra :[. Why should i ever spend 200/200 für a unit i dont wanna mass? I really dont like that Colossi are soooooo important for protoss =(.
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Well if you already have a mothership whats stopping you from getting templars if not just for storm but also some archons as well after you spam the storms for effective or ineffective damage =D
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well if psi storm would do more damage then it would be too strong in PvT i think.
Against Hydras colossi is just a better option. Look at the GSL oGsMC vs Julyzerg game on shakuras, july made air and then he build hydras, in the theory psi storm could be good in this case, but even in this game ogsmc went for lategame colossi + MASS stalker to burn the hydras to death.
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i like to use Psi Storm against roach hydra. i know its not as good as colosi are but i like templar a lot and so i still use my ht. as long as you focus on storming the hydras it works well and then you have archons which are also really good against roach hydra. I try to have immortals/zealots with my ht but it is really gas heavy to do this and it takes practice.(i still don't have it down all that well). mutas are a big issue with this build so i get a few cannons on my min line because i forge expand but archons and ht are my favorite units in the protoss army.
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I'm not a good player, but from what I've read on the boards, the reason that Psi Storm is so rarely used is because Robo for Observers and Immortals vs Roaches is considered very important and Colossi are not only tied to the same tech, but also are themselves very effective vs many units that the Stalkers, Zealots and Immortals are not so efficient at cleaning up, toss into this the fact that Colossi are good without range upgrade, and heralds of doom with it vs HT needing first the Psi Storm research, and then the Energy Upgrade before they can really pay off... in other words Psi Storm is put on the back burner really as a matter of convenience vs Colossi tech.
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Maybe psi storm will play a role in the future of PvP, the voidray change in 1.2 shows us, that blizzard want to get rid of colossi wars only in PvP.
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I disagree, any macro game (more than 2base zerg)you'll be able to utilize storm...
Most of the maps are so small and tight in SC2 compared to SCBW, it's almost impossible to micro your units away from 2 storms.
If there was ever any OP in a game it is the combination of forcefields and storm;P
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i dont say psi storm is BAD, but colossi tech + air support is in almost every game better in PvZ, and thats kinda boring sometimes imo. The main problem is, that psi doesnt help against Tier 3 Zerg and Roaches (especially with burrow) dont give a shit about storm.
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Storm affects burrowed roaches though, actually I just played a game earlier today where my roach army got stormed to death and I used burrow at 2-2 upgrade.
Quit eventhough my score was significantly higher than his.
Storm is a game changer, I tell ya...
I would say it's for midlate game, not complete tier 3 late game.
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It's not uncommon to see Stalker/Sentry/Collosus against Roach/Hydra/Corruptor where the corruptors shut down the collosus so you're forced to add templar into the mix. Properly done this can be very devastating, if zerg invests to heavily into corruptors.
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Sorry but I found them so useless.
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why mixing in templars against roach hydra corrupter, if u just can add void rays. Void rays EAT corrupter, because corrupter dont have +dmg against void rays
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On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS.
Psi storm deals 80 damage which is a hell lot. I really dont understand how psi storm is bad against mutas, they litterally obliterate them because they are usually stacked.
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Obbalord, give me you identifier and we can practice some ZvP sometime
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On December 05 2010 14:07 DoctaD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS. Psi storm deals 80 damage which is a hell lot. I really dont understand how psi storm is bad against mutas, they litterally obliterate them because they are usually stacked.
The many times I've run into Psi Strom in in PvZ with my Mutas, I am usually able to pull them out of a Psi Storm before they take 20 damage thanks to their speed. They may usually be stacked, but they are also very fast and are habitually micro'ed even during a battle of macro to snipe high risk targets such as Immortals, Colossi, HT's or Sentries, so usually they'll not only see the storm the instant it is used, but also have them presently under their control to move them out immediately.
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teching to templar is just a pain in the ass vs an aggressive zerg though =\ storm just melts the shit out of hydras and mutas though. like lobo said i think it works better to go colossi then tech after your colossus ball is out and he's probably making 1000 corruptors.
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On December 05 2010 13:08 Obbalord wrote:
i dont say psi storm is BAD, but colossi tech + air support is in almost every game better in PvZ, and thats kinda boring sometimes imo. The main problem is, that psi doesnt help against Tier 3 Zerg and Roaches (especially with burrow) dont give a shit about storm.
Well it all depends how you play the late game.
If you use 8+ immortals, then both roaches and ultras become horrible choices against you, and corruptors can't kill templars like they can kill colossi. Also, broodlords make colossi considerably less effective, but don't really affect the effectiveness of templar, and they can be stormed, and having archons allows you to handle lings and mutas reasonably well, so there's definitely a way to play PvZ with templar that works imo.
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oooooh idk. getting enough HTs out and controlling them well can be a major pain, but carpet storming to escape and cut off escape routes isn't unheard of. I can see your point, that lategame collosi would be more useful, but this applies to most matchups? and a templar tech switch over from collosi will catch the zerg off guard if he's got lots of useless corurptors. Also, feedback on overseers, queens and infestors, storm on ling infestor bling hydra or even mutas. There are lots of uses imo, though when brood lords come out IDK what to do as toss lol. I usually finish the game with broods as Zerg.
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On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS.
First of all not every zerg gets hydras. Second they are great against mutas. It may take 4 or 5 storms but mutas are a pain to deal with. They are fine as is.
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templars are a great transition for blink stalker/heavy gateway unit build. They take fungals out of the picture (with good micro), punish massing "trash"(just like colos), and can allow you to break a muta contain by having a few at home.
In reality though, ZvP games just dont last long enough for these uses to come into fruition. You will usally win on the blink push against susceptible builds, or you will get roach all in'd and either defend or fall.
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I feel that templar/archons are far more useful against muta/ling/roach strats than any sort of air based play. Phoenix just don't do well keeping air control vs corrupters, and once the skies are clear mutas and broodlords are devastating even with a decent number of stalkers.
On the other hand, an equal cost of HTs will decimate a flock of moderate sized flock of mutas, and the archons that are left will do extremely well against the zerglings left to mop up. Of course you don't want to waste storms on 2-3 mutas, but if you can consistently hit 7-8 per storm they will go down far more quickly than trying to chase them down with phoenix regardless of how well they are microed.
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psi storm eats up hydras i know that... lings get wrecked too but theyre so fast they can just run right out of it
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It's not as useful as something like Dark Templar/Stalker/Colossus, the reason being is that most Zerg players don't use detector units as much as Terran and Protoss players do, mainly because as far as I recall Zerg doesn't have much for undetectable units except for the burrowed units, so some players are less inclined to think about that unless they do a nice bit of other classes, or it becomes necessity, but if you have enough invisible units and mess up theirs, in the case of DT's then they're already at a disadvantage, where you can just flood in and finish them off. Templars to out the defensive structures, then Stalkers to out main structures and Colossi to do the unit destruction.
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They used to be pretty useful as a late game transition after colossi back when you could feedback corruptors. If you do use them w/o colossi though you pretty much have to have a very heavy immortal force to deal with roaches.
Another issue is templar usually go hand-in-hand with a heavy zealot army due to the being so gas-heavy whereas colossi mesh more with ranged units.
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Psy storm is bad against zerg. =! are you kidding me? Psy storm is good on everything the zerg has except for ultralisk.
............In sc2, AOE dmg is deadly. That's why psy storm is deadly to a group of clump of zerg units. bannelings are deadly. siege tanks are deadly. colossi are deadly. archon is deadly but no one use them[just think of archon as thor and start to use them]. Thor is deadly to air units. Ultra are deadly.
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As a Zerg I don't feel the effects of Psy Storm to badly with Roaches but at Dreamhack in the final I thought there was some very nice uses of Psy Storm - Using Storms to clear mineral lines must be the most annoying thing in the world.
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Hydra Corrupter would be a great late game army if it wasn't for storm. As it is now, hydras are not very good against Protoss in the late game which leaves Zergs anti air weak.
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I watched HuK beat NesTea on only gateway tech without transitioning out of it at all. He basically held everything off with psi storm and just kept making archons out of them. Archons do heavy damage and can take lots of damage from every zerg unit. I thought it was pretty awesome watching him use blink stalker with templar/archon to hold nestea off.
Just to describe this game: Close air on lost temple (nestea 12 o clock huk 3 o clock). It went to a 4 base v 5 base macro game. Huk used blink stalkers early to help secure expansions and ended up getting templar tech. He not only held off the big broodlord/ling/roach/hydra busting push, but also the 10 ultralisk re-inforcement push. All he did was use storm along the edge of his army to melt the lings and broodligs, and then again on the roaches and hydras. allowing the blink stalkers to finish off the broodlords once everything got cleared. As for the ultras, he just made a few archons and used blink stalkers to abuse terrain, and nestea ran out of stuff. Being able to hold off the most drastic tech switch in the game with templar-based play is quite impressive. He used storm to hold off all sorts of harass that nestea was attempting, and ended up winning (nestea also had about 16 spine crawlers for defense in the open area near the xel'naga tower). This was no fluke game or a pushover opponent. He did not waste his templar for just 1 storm, but made sure that he saved all of them for archons. They are very strong units, especially against zerg.
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On December 05 2010 14:07 DoctaD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS. Psi storm deals 80 damage which is a hell lot. I really dont understand how psi storm is bad against mutas, they litterally obliterate them because they are usually stacked.
agreed, on average it still damages all of the mutas for 10-20 damage minimum, against a stack of like 10 mutas that can wear them down rather quickly
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I can say as a 2000 Zerg i never see high templars that often.
However when I do they are amazing against hydralisks. Especially off creep.
Since they do like 80 dmg over 6 seconds its really not a bad ability if u know how to predict the enemy movements and include around 4 high templars would be quite effective.
Ive stilll havent seen a protoss use warp prism to call down a high templar at a zergs expo and storm the drones.
I guess there arent any creative Protoss players as of right now.
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I agree, psi storm is very deadly against muta / ling and its good against hydras too, but my main issue remains.
Why should i ever make psi storm, if air+Colossi is stronger(and safer against lategame zerg). I think psi storm would only be "better" against zerg, if the zerg uses much infester for fungal and neural, so feedback is a great thing to have anyway,
but i dont see this coming on the european server in the next time D;. I got only once totaly crushed by mass ling roach + some hydras and many infester. He managed to get all 3 Colossi of mine and my army INSTANTLY melted. in this game i should have switched to templars i guess.
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@HitStarcraft
True, storming drones is underused at the moment and infesteruse in zvp is underused too, i think we will see both more in the future. The Metagame will evolve!
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I like them vs hydra a lot. Basically no matter what units they have (cept ultra's) they can't really attack into an army with a ton of templar with storms ready, if they do they end up running around avoiding storms while stalkers pick them apart. Even though mutas shouldn't die to storms easily, they are so fragile that if they stay in the storm too long its quite punishing, and even you you move them away, they can't attack and move at the same time. If you get storm early (lets say 2 bases) there is a timing where a zerg can just run you over so you usually have to tech to something else first, just for breathing room.
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To me it's always felt that the aoe just isnt big enough
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I'm a 40th rank diamond zerg. And mass psi storms is the only thing that I NEVER win against.
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imo Psi storm is what get you through mid game, then you need to transition into robo/stargate tech in late game, because storm is not that good against fully upgrade roach, ultra or broodlord. However, with psi storm research early in mid game allow you to do storm drop and give you a chance to go into DT tech too.
I don't see HT as late game units in PvZ but is always nice to have like 4~5 HT in your army in late game.
*oh psi storm is always good at defending your base from harass with cannon
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On December 05 2010 14:28 Conrose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 14:07 DoctaD wrote:On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS. Psi storm deals 80 damage which is a hell lot. I really dont understand how psi storm is bad against mutas, they litterally obliterate them because they are usually stacked. The many times I've run into Psi Strom in in PvZ with my Mutas, I am usually able to pull them out of a Psi Storm before they take 20 damage thanks to their speed. They may usually be stacked, but they are also very fast and are habitually micro'ed even during a battle of macro to snipe high risk targets such as Immortals, Colossi, HT's or Sentries, so usually they'll not only see the storm the instant it is used, but also have them presently under their control to move them out immediately. replay please
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On December 05 2010 14:07 DoctaD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:57 commandercup wrote:
I don't think that Psi Storm is useless (far from it), but the reason why it is rarely seen is because it is such late game tech. In the GSL specifically, the Protoss games (rare in GSL3 :'(), they are usually short and involve All-Ins or just general play that ends in a shorter game. Templars take a ton of gas to tech up to and to build and they aren't good unless you have a sizable meaty army.
I do think that they are surprisingly weak against roaches though, but zergs always have lings and hydras as well. It's true that they are also pretty horrible against mutas unless the zerg is brain dead. I feel like the psi storm should do just a little bit more DPS. Psi storm deals 80 damage which is a hell lot. I really dont understand how psi storm is bad against mutas, they litterally obliterate them because they are usually stacked.
in SC2, Psi Storm does not stack
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I watched a game with Socke playing some random terran, and he used storm more as a shield than an attack -- he basically went carrier tech, and when group of vikings came in for the snipe, he used storm to shut the air down or force them to regroup. It was a very interesting tactic, and i think it can be applied to a lot of situations. I've also noticed a changelog for the new patch that hasn't got a lot of discussion, which is the fact that workers can no longer get through ff's while in the mineral line. That means you can theoretically drop a sentry and a ht or 2 or whatever as long as you have enough energy, deny all methods of retreat, and kill every miner if there is no defense. Basically, storm is more than a aoe death spell you hope makes the game for you, but it's also a cattleprod to make things back off or face alot of damage. Archons are also like mini thors vs mutas, and if you have a few of them and actually micro them they can help even the odds in stalker vs large muta fights. I think feedback explains itself.
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People complain about storm not being strong enough because it doesn't insta kill everything.
80 dmg is 80 dmg. From 1 unit. Thats extremely cost effective. 125-80=55
If they dodge you get free shots. If they stay they die. If they burrow storm again since their ubber slow.
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storm is strong but voidray+ colossi is stronger, thats the point =) and sorry but storm is horrible against roaches
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The problem that can happen with colossi is that a zerg player who gets a ton of corruptors and plays defensively until broodlords can win the air battle and end up with a force that crushes a protoss ground army.
On the other hand, templar usually provoke a bunch of roaches into ultras, which makes templar+immortal extremely strong.
Also, I think Plexa got it right that, regardless of which combo you start out with, you should add void rays lategame so broodlords don't wreck your army.
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I find that storm is useless against burrowed roaches, so my zealot stalker ht army loses to mass roaches a lot. However, storm melts hydras. The other problem is that if a ling runs through storm, it barely takes damage.
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Psi storm rapes terran, I'm not gonna lie. If you've got that diamond level micro and the ability to macro all the way up to templar (which is the hardest part), you can effectively make it close to impossible for the terran to win. Templar shut down bio balls, tank lines, and scv's repairing thors with psi storm, and can blast through ghosts ravens and medivacs with feedback. Psi storm is still crazy good in PvT.
However, I agree with the OP when he says it kinda blows in PvZ and PvP. I feel like templar need to be a little better in PvZ, maybe archons should start with 1 armor and have +5 more damage to bio or something. Storm can be effective against hydras and occasionally roaches and mutas, but not much else. Templar aren't as big in sc2 than they were in bw for sure.
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On December 06 2010 04:26 Skank wrote:
Psi storm rapes terran, I'm not gonna lie. If you've got that diamond level micro and the ability to macro all the way up to templar (which is the hardest part), you can effectively make it close to impossible for the terran to win. Templar shut down bio balls, tank lines, and scv's repairing thors with psi storm, and can blast through ghosts ravens and medivacs with feedback. Psi storm is still crazy good in PvT.
However, I agree with the OP when he says it kinda blows in PvZ and PvP. I feel like templar need to be a little better in PvZ, maybe archons should start with 1 armor and have +5 more damage to bio or something. Storm can be effective against hydras and occasionally roaches and mutas, but not much else. Templar aren't as big in sc2 than they were in bw for sure.
lol archon need 1 shield not 1 armor and should have a bigger splash and immune to storm and slow.
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On December 06 2010 04:26 Skank wrote:
Psi storm rapes terran, I'm not gonna lie. If you've got that diamond level micro and the ability to macro all the way up to templar (which is the hardest part), you can effectively make it close to impossible for the terran to win. Templar shut down bio balls, tank lines, and scv's repairing thors with psi storm, and can blast through ghosts ravens and medivacs with feedback. Psi storm is still crazy good in PvT.
However, I agree with the OP when he says it kinda blows in PvZ and PvP. I feel like templar need to be a little better in PvZ, maybe archons should start with 1 armor and have +5 more damage to bio or something.
Archons with 1 Armor is not really going to change anything since it won't affect damage at all until the shields are out at which point all that is keeping the Archon alive is 10 HP. Now a +1 Shield or some sort of Shield upgrade at the Templar Archives would be nice.
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Colossi are just closer in the tech-tree. As they seem to do their job, there is no reason to go templars.
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On December 06 2010 03:58 GinDo wrote:
People complain about storm not being strong enough because it doesn't insta kill everything.
80 dmg is 80 dmg. From 1 unit. Thats extremely cost effective. 125-80=55
If they dodge you get free shots. If they stay they die. If they burrow storm again since their ubber slow.
125 - 80 is 45.
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On December 06 2010 10:13 King of Blades wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 06 2010 03:58 GinDo wrote:
People complain about storm not being strong enough because it doesn't insta kill everything.
80 dmg is 80 dmg. From 1 unit. Thats extremely cost effective. 125-80=55
If they dodge you get free shots. If they stay they die. If they burrow storm again since their ubber slow. 125 - 80 is 45.
Haha, epic one.
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try getting storm AND colossi, its awesome. you can do that if you go more then 2 bases agaisnt zerg. I know it's a revulotionary concept guys, but srsly, try it. it's fun 
off 3-4 bases i can trade armies with a zerg, get maxed with about 6 templars and 5 colossus including khaydarin and thermal lance and upgrades. Don't rule either one out, they are two super strong tech paths, combining them can be super deadly. feedback infestors, storm hydras. and 80 damage agaisnt a roach WILL make a difference, especially if ur doing a more stalkery/colossi type play behind it
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I've been transitioning into HTs (and DTs) as of late behind a 3-gate blink stalker into expand. HT works very well to the common responses to blink stalkers with lings, mutaling, or roaches. The key is you have to support the HT with double robo immortals to combat roaches since storm is ineffective vs roach regen.
So usually it's 3-gate blink stalker into expand, then if there's a heavy roach response cannon up your expo a bit and throw down 2 robos while trying to harass with blink stalkers (and DTs are good too on large maps). The goal here is to try to deny their 3rd hopefully. More likely than not they will eventually transition into hydras and then you go HT to round out your composition. Immortals + HT + anti-air (stalkers and eventually voids if it gets that far) is a very robust unit composition vs zerg even in late game. Immortals + HT do very well vs ultraling and blink stalkers and/or voids will do well vs any broodlords.
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^ the only problem I would have with that is, does that build delay expansion too much? When do you start it? because it seems like a good speed-roach, or on shorter maps hydra push off 2 bases would break your expo. Otherwise, I might add that as a more aggressive build in my repertoire
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Honestly I think the problem isn't psi storm itself. Hight templar and psi storm is increadibly usefull. It's just Colossi fill the same splash damage role. Collossi does the same thing, from a safer position, with the abillity to climb walls, without geting trapped behind your own units, all while unlocking the ever important observer, with the bonus of the immortal. It's a good unit that's rendered obsolete because of the colossi.
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Colossi aren't as good late game.
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HT against zerg don't seem like the best option since storms are good against things that clump up a lot, but lings tend to spread out a lot, roaches are fairly resilient to storms, storms are obviously useless against ultras, and mutas can just dodge, leaving hydras as the main target, but hydras are often not seen en masse as they are so easily countered by colossi and aren't super common in late PvZ. All that being said, archons are excellent against zerg as all zerg units are biological, and archons can tank damage quite well, so HT still have some use since they can do a little damage with their storm, but archons are excellent against zerg.
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psi storms are rediculously strong against zerg, they destroy zerglins so fast, they kill hydras, and do alot of damage to roaches and mutas, the only unit HT's are bad against are broodlords and ultras, and then you can just pump out voids or immortals and your back in the game
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The best way to use them is in transition from like, 3 gate blink. If you've forced hydras or a ton of lings, it can do so much damage. But rush teching HT's isn't quite effective vs Z.
Also works well in a 4 gate transition scenario as well. But again, it's all situational. If you see ling/hydra or ling/muta, go for it. Mass roach... nope.
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storms are quite bad but u have to get them if they went mutaling
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HTs being able to warp in in 5ingame seconds (3seconds irl~) and instantly being able to use storm is clearly terrible. Not like it makes lings utterly worthless and devours hydralisk just as fast as collosus, furthermore, they can't 1hit infestors w/ feedback or anything. Every unit in the game has a purpose, find it instead of saying it is useless.
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I thought that oGsMC's games against Foxer would be very different if he went colossus. Those emps would have crushed through his core army and isolated the colossus, especially on such a big map, if storms weren't there to instantly wipe him out. Colossus just aren't as mobile on a map like Jungle Basin and the damage is far lower against someone who can split like Foxer can.
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vortex the mutas, broods w.e. then sent in couple archon... they will 1 shot all zerg air units
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On December 12 2010 06:46 Kiarip wrote:
^ the only problem I would have with that is, does that build delay expansion too much? When do you start it? because it seems like a good speed-roach, or on shorter maps hydra push off 2 bases would break your expo. Otherwise, I might add that as a more aggressive build in my repertoire
Its timing is similar to a 3wg push (slightly slower) into expand into 5-6wg push, but instead of adding on the extra wg's you tech up a bit. So the initial push is used to prevent mass droning.
There is a timing window where if zerg holds your initial push they can push back into your main if they went heavy roach which is why you need to cannon up a bit. However blink stalkers (and DTs if you needed on larger maps) allows you to harass to at least make it difficult for the zerg to get a 3rd up and going while you tech (depends a lot on the map since blink effectiveness is very map dependent).
But right now it seems that a lot of people underestimate the power of storm vs lings, mutas, and ultras. Everybody knows they are good vs hydras but storm is IMO one of the best response to mutaling and ultraling as a transition from 3wg push. I will admit you do have to be on your toes at all times however as getting caught by surprise in an open field can spell your doom, but as a protoss player you should be used to that with all the FFs and harassment you have to deal with.
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I always try to transition to to HT immortal late-game, I think I'm just having trouble understanding your blink stalker build. What does the build order look like? gate gas cyber gas 2 gates, I assume, but what order do you get the nexus and twilight/blink and forge
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On December 12 2010 10:21 Kiarip wrote:
I always try to transition to to HT immortal late-game, I think I'm just having trouble understanding your blink stalker build. What does the build order look like? gate gas cyber gas 2 gates, I assume, but what order do you get the nexus and twilight/blink and forge
I usually go gate gas cyber gas gate twilight gate. A much easier way to remember it is just to toss down twilight before your last gate since you can easily alter the build into a 4-gate blink stalker all-in instead of 3-gate expo if you suspect they are mass droning. Also obviously save your chrono boost so you can continually CB blink and WG. Also you have to scout for mass speedlings, preferably before you drop your TC. If you see mass speedlings you should transition into something else (I usually just 3-gate sentry expand at that point). You should also harass w/ your first 2 stalkers until they have zerg speed done.
You can expand as your walking toward their base or while you have them contained. You should be able to contain them w/ your blink stalkers on most maps for a good amount of time. It really depends how effective you feel your push will be honestly.
If they push you back w/ mass roach you want to add a few more cannons to protect your nat since for the impending counter push. Then toss down double robo to pump out immortals. You don't have to rush the transition into HT when you see mass roach as you don't need them until hydras come out on the field.
If they pushed you back w/ lings it is almost guaranteed he's going mutas, so cannon up your mineral lines and start rushing to HT. This is also where I like to go DTs as well as most zerg will start mass expanding once they have a fleet of mutas on the field. DTs will slow down their macro game a bit giving you more time to tech up. Once you have storm online leave a HT at each mineral line next to your cannons if they try to harass, and push out and take your third.
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Here's the reason why I think Psistorm is so not good in PvZ:
Zerg's get to replenish their force really easily. They're also in numbers. With collosus, you usually get it worth for your money (aka, they keep firing). But with high templars, it's always burst damage.
The reason why its so effective (templar tech) in PvT is because Terrans cannot replenish and swarm you like crazy like Zerg do. (In addition, it's great for marine balls which do die in one storm, compared to zergs who don't)
But storm vs Zerg is just so meh. I storm, kill a bunch of zerglings or damage a bunch of roaches, great. But then soon enough, they rush me with a nother wave and my templars just haven't regenerated enough energy. Meanwhile, collosi (as long as you don't have it die, which is pretty easy) will continue to do damage. Hence, why I find Robo tech so good against zerg.
(With Terran, I would recommend you transition to templar tech. The Robo's just there because you can't transition to anything that does splash early enough. When they get too many vikings, the templar will make it easier to survive)
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Sorry for bumping, but I would rather post here then make a new thread.
Why is everyone saying Psi Storms suck vs Z? Am i missing something really important? Once storms come it in instantly kills my hydras, zerglings, and roaches. Hydras and roaches are too slow to dodge storms and zerglings just get instantly killed by zealots.
Every darn game I ZvP and the toss gets templars, i feel fucked because it just kills everything.
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As a zerg storm feels to be my worst enemy, really hard to micro properly out of it if u have a bunch of roaches and hydras..
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I prefer Psi Storm over Colossus, the only con is that it's more expensive and harder to tech than Robo.
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I must agree with the OP. Zergs in this thread have mainly complained about Zergling and Hydralisk deaths. Zerglings are extremely fast, and don't naturally conglomerate in transit or in battle. Instead, they usually form lines or arcs of running or gnawing. They also don't have quite the dps per area that Marines have, meaning the same swath of Zerglings slain (if for some reason a clump of Zerglings just sits in storm the way a clump of Marines firing on a target will keep firing under storm) detracts less from the Zerg's damage potential.
Hydralisks may be slower than their BW predecessors off creep, but on creep they're faster, as well as having more hitpoints and having to contend with a weaker, less damage per tick psi storm. A religiously creep spreading Zerg doesn't need to engage his Hydralisks off creep; even a number of early Hydralisk based timing attacks feature Overlord escorts for creep spread.
Generally the Roach/Hydralisk composition is used defensively during the mid-game to parry Protoss aggression while the Zerg ramps a huge gas economy to begin transitioning into Brood Lords. In this capacity, the vision and mobility benefits of creep should be exploited constantly to bait, waste, and dodge storms, only engaging at absolutely the last and best moment.
Psionic Storm does rape Mutalisks, though, in the rare situations where they're stacked and take multiple ticks.
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Templar are insanely strong late game again terran unless they have a thor BC comp... lol Literally every toss I play these days goes templar over colossus, once they get amulet they almost always win. Seriously, Im not sure how you think templar arent useful or used. They are so popular at the moment its crazy.
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the reason that templars are powerfull against terran, at best, medicore against Zerg and next to useless against Protoss can easy be explained by looking at the unit size.
a Psi storm can affect 15-24 food worth of units in a Terran bioball, a zerg Roach/Hydra ball will, at best, have maybe 10-14 food affected, half of wich will be roaches and you will be hardpressed to storm more then 8 food worth of protoss units, especialy in a stalker army. (only expection: Colossus above army, but they have to mutch life to care about storms anyways)
the terran bigest strenght, 3-4 times more DPS per Size then the other armys units, becomes there bigest weakness the second any form of Splash units hit the field.
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Psi storm imo is very underused. It can prove very effective to mutalisk based armies as well as hydralisks. Though I usually tend to go for robo, psi storm can be especially powerful against those that specifically counter colossus as corruptors become useless. If you start with blink stalker play or a dt rush, then the transition is logical. However, colossus tech is much quicker than ht usually and that often plays a big part in the decision. But then again, brood lords ruin your day. so....
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Storm is really only good against hydras and mutas (with good micro.) It's not very good against roaches because of fast regen and storming lings will likely do a ton of friendly damage. Plus there's nothing to feedback.
To be honest, I have no idea of what's a good build against zerg given the rigid tech structure of protoss.
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I truely hope that you're joking. Templar are rediculously strong in combination with speed zealots. Considering you can have about 3 bases up once you begin transitioning into templar, you can have so many warpgates taht you can litterally warp in like 12 zealots at a time.
In combination with forcefield against zerglings it gets completely insane, being hugely costeffective.
Against hydra's its very strong as long as you dont fight on creep ( and really, how hard is it to use your permanitely invisible observer to move forward with your death army in the midgame just to clear out some creep tumors for free?
The only thing storm isnt strong against is roaches, corruptors and ultralisks.
They won't kill zergs in the blink of an eye, sure, but it softens up the army by so much in the lategame that saying the spell is mediocre is laughable.
Another reason that storm is great against zerg is that it forces them to fall back. If you attack as a zerg you almost never want to leave halfway, because the protoss army will pursue you and take the free hits on the zerg army and simply walk into your expansions and tear apart your macro advantage, or the zerg army has to engage but endure the storm.
You just have to accept the fact that high templar are a late game tech. You're supposed to get them on 3/4 bases. The same way as a zerg wouldn't go broodlords off of 2 base and complain about the forums that they aren't strong enough.
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psi storm not useless in PvZ? The majority of my games lost from Protoss is BECAUSE of storm. I hate that tech, annoys the hell outta me. I'm having alotta trouble handling storms late game when I'm forced to go hydras with so many Stalkers and Immortals. He just comes back with 5 or 6 HTs and boom I gotta retreat or else all my units die, and also while the stalkers pick off the slow hydras. Frustrates me. Lol
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EPT
