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So to start, a quick personal introduction: + Show Spoiler + I am a recently graduated math major from a little school you may or may not have heard of, known as Harvey Mudd College, and as such, I must give a shout out to the one and only Sean Plott. If it weren't for him holding a live-cast event for the MSL Mind vs. Bisu, I definitely would not be as obsessed with SC2 as I am right now.
That said, in response to one of the more recent State of the Game podcasts, where the difficulty of tech switching was brought up, I decided to take a little time in order to create an easy visual for the innocuous term "tech switch". Rather than talk about how constricting certain situations "feel", an actual graph/tree (in the mathematical sense) can tell us a lot more in a broad sense of what strategies are more robust, instead of the more basic (and often detrimental) discussion of "Have problems with X? Just get Y!".
So here it is: scaled tech trees for both protoss and terran. I didn't include Zerg because (at least in my opinion) it's much more quirky, and I don't know if this would really provide any new insight for zerg.
Legend:
-- Buildings are scaled according to cost. 1 millimeter squared = 1 mineral = 0.5 gas.
-- Tech Tree Arcs are scaled according to time-to-build. 1 millimeter = 2 in-game seconds.
-- Also, a few buildings were omitted from the Terran tree: Bunker, Orbital Command, Sensor Tower, Planetary Fortress, Reactor, and Tech Lab.
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I personally would like it if these graphs spoke for themselves, but it'd be way too boring if I didn't give my own analysis.
+ Show Spoiler +First, on the Terran side: at least from what I've been seeing during the GSL, terrans are way too comfortable sitting on their midgame units forever. There is no good reason why the Brood Lord -> Ultralisk tech switch should be as amazing as it is, and the only real reason it seems to be like that is because terrans stay stuck so long on their mid-game tech for eternities. Both ghosts (sniper rounds) and battlecruisers should be a quick option before the Zerg gets hive, as neither ghosts nor BCs are ever really that far away. The only common use of any of Terran's "end-game" units it the use of the Thor to discourage mutalisks, or ghosts to EMP protoss just because.
Then, on the Protoss side: we really need to branch out more. Or rather, we really need to get better about balancing between the first-tier of tech buildings and the second. The game that I think stands as a perfect example was Nada vs. sSKS. on two bases, there was 4 gateways, 1 robo + bay, and 2 stargates. Instead of combating the anti-colossus vikings with more stalkers and more colossi, he threw down those stargates and pumped out phoenixes like a boss. I suppose my point by bringing this up is this: You're probably going to need to tech up one of these three branches all the way, but if you don't diversify by going one step into the other two branches, you're really only going to end up screwing yourself over.
It's entirely possible my analysis is short-sighted or misguided. I'm not the greatest player in the world. I have no control over nerves/adrenaline, and I'm insanely out of practice. But I still think that this sort of look can be helpful when asking, "what new, crazy strategy can I come up with that is actually stable and robust, without being a gimmick?". And maybe some people can tell me why my own analysis is stupid (or not-so-stupid), but hopefully it'll just help people (mainly protoss) take a second look at the way they compare choices like stargate vs. robo vs. templar.
p.s. I know it's really the most stupid-simple way of looking at things, but when pro-gamers who live-and-breathe SC2 can't articulate why exactly they feel it's much easier for Terran (compared to Protoss) to tech switch, or recover from being caught without a certain type of unit, I feel like it might actually be useful to take a much more simple and fundamental look at things.
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I think it makes perfect sense, it shows why a 111 build (such as fast banshee) is alot safer than say void ray. As even if/when it comes time to withdraw a Terran still has access to 90% of his tech tree whereas a Protoss wouldn't.
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I just think it's too easy for terran to tech switch unlike the other 2 races. E.g Zerg you need that certain tech structure before you can start producing those units where as Terran has almost his entire tech tree out when he gets to banshees and can easily switch to bioball or full mech.
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I don't think Terran can switch techs as easily as Zerg, sure they can make a little if everything but saying that they can "switch to full mech" is taking it abit far seeing as they would still be limited by factories or barracks (for bio). Although I do agree that they do have a head start over protoss.
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Great idea to visually map out the tech trees. I think visuals do speak for themselves. =)
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On November 28 2010 20:48 Maicro wrote:
I just think it's too easy for terran to tech switch unlike the other 2 races. E.g Zerg you need that certain tech structure before you can start producing those units where as Terran has almost his entire tech tree out when he gets to banshees and can easily switch to bioball or full mech.
So what your saying is, the races have a diverse identity and similarly varied methods of reaching the same goal, each with its own set of drawbacks and its own set of positive uses.
"i just think its too easy" (for protoss to warp in around the map) (for Zerg to build an entire composition at once) (for terran to have access to a variety of units early)
Meh, considering the "Terran has it easy" stuff that's still going around, why not have a Lategame TvZ thread again XD
(i play protoss).
FakeEdit: Thanks OP for this diagram, i'm currently teaching my wife a little bit more about sc2, and these diagrams will be a nice little aid in when talking about the tech differences/similarities)
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Protoss templar tech is so far away since you can warp them in immediately at a pylon of choice once the tech structure is done. Once Terran is done building supply depot/ barracks/ factory/ starport/ fusion core/ tech lab he still has to wait 90 seconds for a single Battlecruiser to pop out.
I do think that the Battlecruiser will become the Terran lategame unit versus Zerg but you can't just pop a few out when you see Zerg starting his Hive. You'll have to plan getting them way in advance, before Zerg gets Hive actually.
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I just think it's too easy for terran to tech switch unlike the other 2 races. E.g Zerg you need that certain tech structure before you can start producing those units where as Terran has almost his entire tech tree out when he gets to banshees and can easily switch to bioball or full mech.
Really? You going to stick with that? Z is the race of tech switching. Ling/Muta to mass roach is so powerful vs T.
P can just as easily get as many units options as T. Stargate + robo = Factory + Starport. Yeah, i know i left out cyber. P delay stargate cause there is nothing necessary to get in there. Terran need vikings and can use medic/banshee. Moreover, terran needs armory for thor and that thing for bcs. Protoss and Terran tech structure are just so similar--almost mirrors if you leave out cyber.
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On November 29 2010 00:20 Saechiis wrote:
Protoss templar tech is so far away since you can warp them in immediately at a pylon of choice once the tech structure is done. Once Terran is done building supply depot/ barracks/ factory/ starport/ fusion core/ tech lab he still has to wait 90 seconds for a single Battlecruiser to pop out.
I do think that the Battlecruiser will become the Terran lategame unit versus Zerg but you can't just pop a few out when you see Zerg starting his Hive. You'll have to plan getting them way in advance, before Zerg gets Hive actually.
If you want to use battlecruisers against hive tech units then you can easily get them before the zerg get his units if you scout the building of the hive.
Fusion core - 65s
Battlecruiser - 90s
= 155s
Hive - 100s
Ultralisk cavern - 65s / Greater spire - 100s
Ultralisk - 70s / Broodlord - 34s
= 235s / 234s
Sure, several ultralisks or broodlords can be built at the same time but terrans can put down extra starports while building the fusion core to push out 3-4 battlecruisers each production cycle.
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On November 28 2010 20:48 Maicro wrote:
I just think it's too easy for terran to tech switch unlike the other 2 races. E.g Zerg you need that certain tech structure before you can start producing those units where as Terran has almost his entire tech tree out when he gets to banshees and can easily switch to bioball or full mech.
You cannot switch to "bioball"or fullmech on 1-1-1...
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Neat, but I think this is an oversimplification. It doesn't take into account techlabs/reactors or the cost of units themselves.
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It's very interesting but I think there are very few in game applications to this. It is interesting to note that the Templar tech tree is so much more removed compared to comparable spell casters in other races. It also should be said that you are totally excluding tech labs and reactors though idk how big an impact this has on the whole visual diagram. Overall interesting but has a few issues that make it not that useful
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On November 28 2010 20:48 Maicro wrote:
I just think it's too easy for terran to tech switch unlike the other 2 races. E.g Zerg you need that certain tech structure before you can start producing those units where as Terran has almost his entire tech tree out when he gets to banshees and can easily switch to bioball or full mech.
This is a common misconception since the other races (gateway-heavy Protoss and larva-using Zerg) tech availability is more due to "unlocking" it (getting your Robo Bay, Spire, or whatever), and once you do you can dump essentially all your money into that sort of unit with relatively little future investment for infrastructure. With Terran, having a unit tech unlocked does not mean you can suddenly use it fully--for example, with 1/1/1 you theoretically have every unit other than Ghosts, Thors, and Battlecruisers available without any extra tech structures, but in reality if you want to mass Banshees you will need to add a lot of Starports, and then if you later want to mass Marauders you will need to add a lot more Barracks. Unlocking the tech does not allow you to use it as much as you want.
Protoss is sort of between Terran and Zerg in this regard in that they still have independent production structures but most of their production is done from the gateway regardless of their build.
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On November 29 2010 03:06 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 20:48 Maicro wrote:
I just think it's too easy for terran to tech switch unlike the other 2 races. E.g Zerg you need that certain tech structure before you can start producing those units where as Terran has almost his entire tech tree out when he gets to banshees and can easily switch to bioball or full mech. You cannot switch to "bioball"or fullmech on 1-1-1...
Sure you can. 1/1/1 can transition into bio or mech. For both builds you need air anyway.
It's hard to switch from bio to mech, or from mech to bio, but 1/1/1 is pretty generic and from there you can go pretty much anywhere.
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I would like to see a replay of going "fullmech" off 1 factory
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/WinterNightz/protoss-scaled.png)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/WinterNightz/terran-scaled.png)
