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On November 25 2010 00:15 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 21:16 cmp wrote:On November 24 2010 18:41 Inori wrote:On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing. As a P player that got himself into mid diamond with T within trial account time period (granted, it was back when bonus pool wasn't this stupidly high), I strongly disagree. Any Bo that involves M & M is much easier to execute than proper 4gate. In fact I bet you can just n-rax marine all-in every game up to 2000+. You can't, you can't even 3 rax to diamond. Like the person above me said, 3 rax is too easy to shut down. It's not an all in and by design isn't meant to win the game immediately, it just denies an early expo from protoss then requires you to transition into something that can actually win the game. Against any protoss platinum+ you will never push up their ramp and as soon as colossi pop you're dead if you don't know what you're doing. Against zerg you just auto lose to 14 hatch on any map with a rush distance longer than Steppes of War. Terran gets a lot of grief for being mindless to play but try 4 gating as toss then try 3 raxing against a diamond player and tell me which works better. I'm not trying to tell you one is easier to play WELL than the other, I'm just saying at a very minimum level of competency you will fare better as protoss because the way the mechanics of the race work. The race is a lot more forgiving at low levels of play. This apparently does not apply to the OP anyway, though it probably applies to me. Also the game is still new and evolving rapidly. A few months ago you could virtually roll your face across the keyboard and end up in diamond, but the overall skill level has increased dramatically since then as would be expected. Be careful with anecdotal evidence. is your macro bad? just drop mules.. and make planetary Mules don't help at all if your macro is bad, they just let you bank more minerals that you probably won't spend. And you realize making planetary cuts down on the amount of mules you can even use anyway right? You can queue up units without having to constantly keep an eye on your warp gate cooldowns to make sure you are using your resources/time effectively.
Queueing units is making sure you AREN'T using your resources/time effectively.
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Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping.
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On November 25 2010 00:53 TheGiz wrote:
Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping.
One single good FF on the ramp to cut his army in half and you should be golden right there. 3rax shouldn't beat any good robo+gateways opening unless the P fucks up his FFs. It's mostly strong vs FE's and heavy teching P's (read: any builds that doesnt get a lot of early units).
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6 rax
there was a thread here on TL about it
10 depot
12 rax(que 4 rines)
15 OC
wait for 750 mins
toss down 5 rax's
make depots and use mules as needed
Just constant stream of rines
Push when u get like 17
Make waypoint on a rine
GG
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Message to all zergs... Start 6-8 pooling on two player maps. :p
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Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping.
When I open 3rax, the only thing that protoss can do to beat me is to attack REALLY fast with a 2 gate =/. That or better positioning/FF
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I love how zerg is absent from this thread, yet all the Z OP talk generally...
So are T/P just the easiest races to blind strat/cheese your way through the game?
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On November 25 2010 00:53 TheGiz wrote:
Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping.
It's all about expansion timing.
1) If you're going to FE, you must 1 gate FE. You cannot 3 gate expand. Once you FE, you must quickly get at least 6 warpgates and a robotics... as in BEFORE you fully saturate you natural.
2) If you are not going to FE, you must either get a robotics facility, or a lot of sentries and zealots
3) In any case, you must not make too many stalkers. They are very bad unless you expect banshees.
4) You must always use forcefield well.
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On November 25 2010 00:15 bobcat wrote:
also, if you were a diamond on SEA why are you asking about how to get into diamond quickly. You should be able (if you deserve your diamond rating) to completely shut down your platinum and lower opponents in 10 minutes.
That was my thinking, as well. Again, if you were still learning the game while you were getting into Diamond the first time, it probably took a while. That doesn't mean you're going to have to play 150 long, drawn out macro games to get there again. If you've only got 20 games played and won 18 of them, I'm pretty sure you'll be playing the appropriate level of opponents. If you're playing Diamond opponents and winning, things will sort themselves out.
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On November 24 2010 18:47 Brad` wrote:
3 rax, 2 tech lab 1 reactor stim push should get you to atleast 2100 diamond.
It won't. Just cause you are probably over 2100 doesn't mean everyone below you are newbs. Rax rushes are awful unless you plan to tech and/or FE (in which case you should have 2 rax, initially).
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I love how people try to get a cheap way to win instead of working on their gameplay and basics.
And wonder why they get tore up at high tier games.
As a Protoss I really have no sympathy for people who 4 gates cannon rush or proxy to diamond and cry since they can't win anymore. As underpowered as Protoss is, it's because of mainstream of fast win trolls that make the valid complaints look like whining.
Good to see that terran does that or tries to look for it too
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On November 25 2010 01:20 DevanT wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping. When I open 3rax, the only thing that protoss can do to beat me is to attack REALLY fast with a 2 gate =/. That or better positioning/FE
You forgot to say Protoss at your level or up for actually validating your false claim?
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On November 24 2010 18:03 DennyR wrote:
You should srsly learn to play the game from the bottom. No offence, but I really think poeple should get away from playing 4Gate and 3Rax.You learn nothing using those and when you reach diamond you still have to learn the game, because you will lose every game when you reach a certain point.
What are you going to do then? Quit playing?
So learn to macro, learn to expand, learn the basics of playing Starcraft and reach diamond with real skill.
untill these builds stop getting people to high places on ladder, we shouldnt discourage people doing them
all players builds should have to be safe vs them so we dont seem them rise in popularity again later on
see also; the amount of 4 gating good koreans still do
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If you're looking for a "cheese my way to diamond" play, I would have to suggest 2 port banshees w/ cloak.
You can have 2 banshees in your opponents base killing their dudes in under 10 minutes.
It works against all 3 races.
You can choose to follow up with a real game if it doesn't go so well.
Best scrub cheese out there IMO.
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On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing.
i have to disagree here simply based on the fact that you dont really have to micro a 3 rax stim push to beat most people. At least 4 gates have to manage units that dont all do the same thing
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All I know is that I play Silver and every Terran player I've faced in the past week has beaten me BEFORE the Mid-Game on an extremely loaded initial Marine/Marauder push with Stim. I think I held it off once with large numbers of Sentries. Another time that it didn't happen I got beaten by a turtle into Ghost/EMP/Marine Tank Walk, which won simply because of how unorthodox it was.
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On November 25 2010 01:24 eth3n wrote:
I love how zerg is absent from this thread, yet all the Z OP talk generally...
So are T/P just the easiest races to blind strat/cheese your way through the game?
Both ideas feed one-another.
Zerg has 0 cheese options vs terran, so they must learn to play.
While cheese is viable against Z and P, its not game-ending most times, the best you can consistantly get out of it is a better economic position. In order to actually win, you have to back it up with solid game play.
Due to zerg requiring solid game play to even make it to diamond, everybody thinks they're OP in the late game (most because late game comes after a failed cheese).
Due to everybody thinking Z is OP, they cheese harder and harder, forcing Zerg to cut the fat and get an even stronger way to get to late game.
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4 gate and 3 rax are standard builds that aren't even all in. People who say learn to play instead of doing that are idiots who can't understand that it's a viable strat.
It has its pro's and cons but so does every build.
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On November 25 2010 01:48 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:24 eth3n wrote:
I love how zerg is absent from this thread, yet all the Z OP talk generally...
So are T/P just the easiest races to blind strat/cheese your way through the game? Both ideas feed one-another. Zerg has 0 cheese options vs terran, so they must learn to play. While cheese is viable against Z and P, its not game-ending most times, the best you can consistantly get out of it is a better economic position. In order to actually win, you have to back it up with solid game play. Due to zerg requiring solid game play to even make it to diamond, everybody thinks they're OP in the late game (most because late game comes after a failed cheese). Due to everybody thinking Z is OP, they cheese harder and harder, forcing Zerg to cut the fat and get an even stronger way to get to late game.
+1
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On November 24 2010 17:59 FirstQT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 17:57 Tianx wrote:
Bunker at ramp -> cloaked banshees works with even less mechanics. any sort of 3-7 roach rush crushes this
ever heard of scouting?
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EPT
