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As we all know you can 4 gate your way to diamond ( and probably 3 gate robo as well). But that is only for protoss. I was hoping that maybe there is a way to insert build order your way to diamond for terran, something similar to 4 gate that involves finishing the game in early game or mid game, but not late game.
I am currently a terran player who is about to start in the NA server (previously focused on SEA server, until someone told me that NA had better latency).
Anyway, what build orders can i do as a terran that is cheese, early agression, one big timing push or anything intended to end the game in early/mid game? And please describe the build order in specific details (e.g 10 depot, 12 rax etc) so that i can memorise and practice it.
Edit: i am diamond in SEA server which i reached through "straight up macro no gimmicks" play so enough with the "learn to play the game" comments please. And give me the specific details of the build order in the following format:
For example:
Build order X
10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
And even if i could get to diamond fast with straight up macro, the problem is i dont know any of those gimmicky plays. And watching pro tournaments has really made me feel like playing that way.
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3 rax marine/marauder 50 food push.
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What these guys said. More specifically, 2 tech lab, 1 reactor stim push.
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how about learning to play the game?
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Bunker at ramp -> cloaked banshees works with even less mechanics.
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You can also ask a friend to play on your account to get you to diamond league while you're at it lol if its the only thing you want! Seriously play the game, practice your macro and understand the mechanics and you will get there in no time !
If you dont want to then just work on a 3 rax stim timing push and you will get a 50% win rate against all 3 matchup
Hf !
Have fun
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Alternatively pull a Foxer and 2-rax SCV rush every game.
Pro: Works at the highest level, too.
Con: Takes actually micro.
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On November 24 2010 17:57 Tianx wrote:
Bunker at ramp -> cloaked banshees works with even less mechanics.
any sort of 3-7 roach rush crushes this
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I still lose to badly executed banshee rushes at 2400 diamond, bunker rus into banshee, same story, but the bio push is probably more, hmm, standard? idk what word to use, but yeah, bio ball with stim
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You should srsly learn to play the game from the bottom. No offence, but I really think poeple should get away from playing 4Gate and 3Rax.You learn nothing using those and when you reach diamond you still have to learn the game, because you will lose every game when you reach a certain point.
What are you going to do then? Quit playing?
So learn to macro, learn to expand, learn the basics of playing Starcraft and reach diamond with real skill.
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On November 24 2010 18:03 DennyR wrote:
You should srsly learn to play the game from the bottom. No offence, but I really think poeple should get away from playing 4Gate and 3Rax.You learn nothing using those and when you reach diamond you still have to learn the game, because you will lose every game when you reach a certain point.
What are you going to do then? Quit playing?
So learn to macro, learn to expand, learn the basics of playing Starcraft and reach diamond with real skill.
Bollocks.
Korean players practice the same build over and over again, and they're pretty good, so why can't we?
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On November 24 2010 17:59 FirstQT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 17:57 Tianx wrote:
Bunker at ramp -> cloaked banshees works with even less mechanics. any sort of 3-7 roach rush crushes this
There are plenty of ways to neutralize cloaked banshees, but roach rush isn't one of them. If you pull SCVs to repair you can hold anything but all-in banelings off one rax fine. Alternatively toss down another bunker if you scout it/don't see a natural hatchery but that may be getting to be too close to actual good, adaptive play for the scope of this thread.
Plus it's not like we're looking for actually 'good' builds here. Plenty of builds murder 4-gate, but that doesn't stop it from being an easy way to cheese your way into diamond.
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On November 24 2010 17:59 FirstQT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 17:57 Tianx wrote:
Bunker at ramp -> cloaked banshees works with even less mechanics. any sort of 3-7 roach rush crushes this
Roach rush loses to cloaked banshees.
Try a thor/marine/scv repair rush. You can do it without scouting off 1-base. Against protoss where you suspect DTs, you may have to save a couple of scans. That will possibly take you into diamond.
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On November 24 2010 18:05 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:03 DennyR wrote:
You should srsly learn to play the game from the bottom. No offence, but I really think poeple should get away from playing 4Gate and 3Rax.You learn nothing using those and when you reach diamond you still have to learn the game, because you will lose every game when you reach a certain point.
What are you going to do then? Quit playing?
So learn to macro, learn to expand, learn the basics of playing Starcraft and reach diamond with real skill. Bollocks. Korean players practice the same build over and over again, and they're pretty good, so why can't we?
dubble bollocks
first of all:
just because koreans do it doent mean you have to do it.
seriously thats as stupid as saying player who do 4gate and 3rax are noobs
because if you do like a 4gate expand or a 3 rax expand your build is as lategameoriented as most other builds
quote day[9]:
starcraft isnt about what strategie you do, but about when you do them
more important that doing such a push is knowing a good next step
in most cases the best transitions out of a good one base push is an expo
so if you come to the pont when you start to lose with any 1 base all in (without expo) push
start doing an expo and you are find in mid/lategame
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There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing.
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is your macro bad? just drop mules.. and make planetary 
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On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing.
What? 3 rax rauder stim rush ring a bell? The hardest thing here is making sure your army is in position to attack when stim finishes! Timing for beginners!
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3 rax, 2 tech lab 1 reactor stim push should get you to atleast 2100 diamond.
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For those of you guys calling me a noob and telling me to just improve my skills, im already a diamond at SEA server. I just want to get to diamond in NA server ASAP, but i dont want to play up to late game everytime in ladder just to get to diamond again.
And for those of you who post build orders, please tell me the specific details (e.g 10 depot, 12 rax...). If you already posted a build order but didn't put in the specific details, edit your post.
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5-6 rax no gas marine rush. It is very tricky, the basic bo is very close to 1 rax FE, so you never know if there are multiple raxes coming up in the main or a cc. I think it is even better than 4gate. There was a thread here how someone made 1 rank diamond with this build in every MU.
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On November 24 2010 18:45 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing. What? 3 rax rauder stim rush ring a bell? The hardest thing here is making sure your army is in position to attack when stim finishes! Timing for beginners!
3 rax isn't all in where as 4 gate is, right? Never used 3 rax, you are way behind in tech.
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I'm pretty sure 3 rax can only get you to platinum, maybe. 3 rax tends to get shut down easily at higher levels, especially if scouted.
Early, early marine rushes would work, though.
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On November 24 2010 17:59 Tianx wrote:
Alternatively pull a Foxer and 2-rax SCV rush every game.
Pro: Works at the highest level, too.
Con: Takes actually micro.
If he had micro that good, he wouldn't be asking for a strat to carry him to diamond.
On November 24 2010 17:57 freetgy wrote:
how about learning to play the game?
My thoughts exactly.
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On November 24 2010 18:41 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing. As a P player that got himself into mid diamond with T within trial account time period (granted, it was back when bonus pool wasn't this stupidly high), I strongly disagree. Any Bo that involves M & M is much easier to execute than proper 4gate. In fact I bet you can just n-rax marine all-in every game up to 2000+.
You can't, you can't even 3 rax to diamond. Like the person above me said, 3 rax is too easy to shut down. It's not an all in and by design isn't meant to win the game immediately, it just denies an early expo from protoss then requires you to transition into something that can actually win the game. Against any protoss platinum+ you will never push up their ramp and as soon as colossi pop you're dead if you don't know what you're doing. Against zerg you just auto lose to 14 hatch on any map with a rush distance longer than Steppes of War. Terran gets a lot of grief for being mindless to play but try 4 gating as toss then try 3 raxing against a diamond player and tell me which works better. I'm not trying to tell you one is easier to play WELL than the other, I'm just saying at a very minimum level of competency you will fare better as protoss because the way the mechanics of the race work. The race is a lot more forgiving at low levels of play. This apparently does not apply to the OP anyway, though it probably applies to me.
Also the game is still new and evolving rapidly. A few months ago you could virtually roll your face across the keyboard and end up in diamond, but the overall skill level has increased dramatically since then as would be expected. Be careful with anecdotal evidence.
is your macro bad? just drop mules.. and make planetary
Mules don't help at all if your macro is bad, they just let you bank more minerals that you probably won't spend. And you realize making planetary cuts down on the amount of mules you can even use anyway right?
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On November 24 2010 18:05 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:03 DennyR wrote:
You should srsly learn to play the game from the bottom. No offence, but I really think poeple should get away from playing 4Gate and 3Rax.You learn nothing using those and when you reach diamond you still have to learn the game, because you will lose every game when you reach a certain point.
What are you going to do then? Quit playing?
So learn to macro, learn to expand, learn the basics of playing Starcraft and reach diamond with real skill. Bollocks. Korean players practice the same build over and over again, and they're pretty good, so why can't we?
not the same thing, cheesing every game isn't learning the game
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To the OP: I did the same thing as you (was diamond SEA, and got to diamond in NA). My advice is to play your strongest build. This way, you'll maximise your win % and thus get into diamond faster. I reached there under 30 games.
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On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing.
I think you are heavily biased. MM and its transitions are very simple to play. To say you cannot reach diamond playing three rax is absurd. Three rax against a protoss will provide you with similar amounts of autowins as 4gate up to a certain skill level which is well above the diamond threshhold.
At the same time, while MULEs do not compensate as much for lack of unit production, it compensate for a lack of worker production, which is also an aspect of macro.
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same situation as you, i got to diamond in NA by pure macro play in less than 20 games. No need to cheese, but be prepared for NA cheese. They love it.
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I'm actually quite confused... If you're a Diamond level player on another server, you obviously have at least A build you use that got you there. Shouldn't that one work...? Just because it may have taken you a decent amount of time to get to that point the first time doesn't mean it will again. If you haven't placed yet, you should be able to get there VERY quickly. If you have, well, the system seems to adapt pretty quickly. You can just play standard, roll all your opponents, and get promoted. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you're better off playing standard: you're less likely to lose against a player who doesn't just outplay you.
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DTs :D
haha, jk. any build your good at practice 1 mother fing build and learn it well.
obviously saying DTs is a joke, learn humor
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On November 24 2010 22:27 Dominator1370 wrote:
I'm actually quite confused... If you're a Diamond level player on another server, you obviously have at least A build you use that got you there. Shouldn't that one work...? Just because it may have taken you a decent amount of time to get to that point the first time doesn't mean it will again. If you haven't placed yet, you should be able to get there VERY quickly. If you have, well, the system seems to adapt pretty quickly. You can just play standard, roll all your opponents, and get promoted. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you're better off playing standard: you're less likely to lose against a player who doesn't just outplay you.
Let me fill you in on my current situation. I want to play diamond in NA server because i am diamond in SEA server and i know im diamond material, i always played straight up macro in SEA but i want a shortcut to diamond in NA because i don't wanna deal with the people below diamond. All my build orders are for straight up macro like 1/1/1, 1rax FE,2 rax FE. Playing straight up macro to diamond takes hella long time. So i want to learn some cheesy, all-in, rush, agressive, any "finish-the-game-by- early/midgame" build orders.
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Actually, don't lose any games and you'll be playing diamond players in 8-9 games. You don't have to be in diamond to be playing diamond players.
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On November 24 2010 18:47 Brad` wrote:
3 rax, 2 tech lab 1 reactor stim push should get you to atleast 2100 diamond.
Nope I did that when I was still Terran and it stopped working at around 1000 diamond back then which should be around 1.3-1.5k atm.
2100 will easily scout it.
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On November 24 2010 21:36 Coolcatqt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:05 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:03 DennyR wrote:
You should srsly learn to play the game from the bottom. No offence, but I really think poeple should get away from playing 4Gate and 3Rax.You learn nothing using those and when you reach diamond you still have to learn the game, because you will lose every game when you reach a certain point.
What are you going to do then? Quit playing?
So learn to macro, learn to expand, learn the basics of playing Starcraft and reach diamond with real skill. Bollocks. Korean players practice the same build over and over again, and they're pretty good, so why can't we? not the same thing, cheesing every game isn't learning the game
While I would normally agree with you, you seem to be using "cheese" in this strange way that people seem to be using these days.
Did you know that, once upon a time, builds that could exert pressure on your opponent relatively early were normal, and any sort of early tech or fast expansion build was considered to be gimmicky, rather than sound play?
Four gate and three rax are* strong enough threats that the opponent cannot who puts up adequate defenses cannot also gain a large advantage through macro/tech, and so you are still in a good position against an opponent who can resist the pressure as long as you play well.
*: Or, at least, seem to be
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3 rax.
And it will get you way farther than 4 gate will get a protoss player.
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3rax into 5rax expand is the most devisating build I have every seen done against a Protoss doing anything but gate robo first.
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On November 24 2010 21:16 cmp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:41 Inori wrote:On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing. As a P player that got himself into mid diamond with T within trial account time period (granted, it was back when bonus pool wasn't this stupidly high), I strongly disagree. Any Bo that involves M & M is much easier to execute than proper 4gate. In fact I bet you can just n-rax marine all-in every game up to 2000+. You can't, you can't even 3 rax to diamond. Like the person above me said, 3 rax is too easy to shut down. It's not an all in and by design isn't meant to win the game immediately, it just denies an early expo from protoss then requires you to transition into something that can actually win the game. Against any protoss platinum+ you will never push up their ramp and as soon as colossi pop you're dead if you don't know what you're doing. Against zerg you just auto lose to 14 hatch on any map with a rush distance longer than Steppes of War. Terran gets a lot of grief for being mindless to play but try 4 gating as toss then try 3 raxing against a diamond player and tell me which works better. I'm not trying to tell you one is easier to play WELL than the other, I'm just saying at a very minimum level of competency you will fare better as protoss because the way the mechanics of the race work. The race is a lot more forgiving at low levels of play. This apparently does not apply to the OP anyway, though it probably applies to me. Also the game is still new and evolving rapidly. A few months ago you could virtually roll your face across the keyboard and end up in diamond, but the overall skill level has increased dramatically since then as would be expected. Be careful with anecdotal evidence. Mules don't help at all if your macro is bad, they just let you bank more minerals that you probably won't spend. And you realize making planetary cuts down on the amount of mules you can even use anyway right?
Yes at the bronze to gold levels of play, I fully agree that 4 gate is more forgiving of a very bad player. However, the OP asked about an easy way to get into diamond quickly. I'm assuming from this that he is a competent player who can macro. 4 gate may be more forgiving of a bad player, but 3 rax is more forgiving of an intermediate player. You can queue up units without having to constantly keep an eye on your warp gate cooldowns to make sure you are using your resources/time effectively. Arguing which race is easier for bad players is pointless. Am I arguing that 4 gate is hard? No, it's easy as shit.
The point is that as a terran, you have to put considerably less thought into your unit composition, formation, and in general what your opponent is making. You can open 3 rax with 2 tech labs and a reactor and pump half and half marines and marauders and you will beat most openers/armies up into diamond league.
If you put a good amount of thought into what units you make, scouting your opponents composition, and keeping your marauders in the front, watching out for banelings and FF's, and stim kiting, you can get into a very high level of diamond.
You can literally win mid-diamond games with MMM alone. Provided you expand appropriately and macro correctly you will get very far off of this build.
EDIT: also, if you were a diamond on SEA why are you asking about how to get into diamond quickly. You should be able (if you deserve your diamond rating) to completely shut down your platinum and lower opponents in 10 minutes.
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On November 25 2010 00:15 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 21:16 cmp wrote:On November 24 2010 18:41 Inori wrote:On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing. As a P player that got himself into mid diamond with T within trial account time period (granted, it was back when bonus pool wasn't this stupidly high), I strongly disagree. Any Bo that involves M & M is much easier to execute than proper 4gate. In fact I bet you can just n-rax marine all-in every game up to 2000+. You can't, you can't even 3 rax to diamond. Like the person above me said, 3 rax is too easy to shut down. It's not an all in and by design isn't meant to win the game immediately, it just denies an early expo from protoss then requires you to transition into something that can actually win the game. Against any protoss platinum+ you will never push up their ramp and as soon as colossi pop you're dead if you don't know what you're doing. Against zerg you just auto lose to 14 hatch on any map with a rush distance longer than Steppes of War. Terran gets a lot of grief for being mindless to play but try 4 gating as toss then try 3 raxing against a diamond player and tell me which works better. I'm not trying to tell you one is easier to play WELL than the other, I'm just saying at a very minimum level of competency you will fare better as protoss because the way the mechanics of the race work. The race is a lot more forgiving at low levels of play. This apparently does not apply to the OP anyway, though it probably applies to me. Also the game is still new and evolving rapidly. A few months ago you could virtually roll your face across the keyboard and end up in diamond, but the overall skill level has increased dramatically since then as would be expected. Be careful with anecdotal evidence. is your macro bad? just drop mules.. and make planetary Mules don't help at all if your macro is bad, they just let you bank more minerals that you probably won't spend. And you realize making planetary cuts down on the amount of mules you can even use anyway right? You can queue up units without having to constantly keep an eye on your warp gate cooldowns to make sure you are using your resources/time effectively.
Queueing units is making sure you AREN'T using your resources/time effectively.
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Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping.
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On November 25 2010 00:53 TheGiz wrote:
Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping.
One single good FF on the ramp to cut his army in half and you should be golden right there. 3rax shouldn't beat any good robo+gateways opening unless the P fucks up his FFs. It's mostly strong vs FE's and heavy teching P's (read: any builds that doesnt get a lot of early units).
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6 rax
there was a thread here on TL about it
10 depot
12 rax(que 4 rines)
15 OC
wait for 750 mins
toss down 5 rax's
make depots and use mules as needed
Just constant stream of rines
Push when u get like 17
Make waypoint on a rine
GG
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Message to all zergs... Start 6-8 pooling on two player maps. :p
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Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping.
When I open 3rax, the only thing that protoss can do to beat me is to attack REALLY fast with a 2 gate =/. That or better positioning/FF
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I love how zerg is absent from this thread, yet all the Z OP talk generally...
So are T/P just the easiest races to blind strat/cheese your way through the game?
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On November 25 2010 00:53 TheGiz wrote:
Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping.
It's all about expansion timing.
1) If you're going to FE, you must 1 gate FE. You cannot 3 gate expand. Once you FE, you must quickly get at least 6 warpgates and a robotics... as in BEFORE you fully saturate you natural.
2) If you are not going to FE, you must either get a robotics facility, or a lot of sentries and zealots
3) In any case, you must not make too many stalkers. They are very bad unless you expect banshees.
4) You must always use forcefield well.
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On November 25 2010 00:15 bobcat wrote:
also, if you were a diamond on SEA why are you asking about how to get into diamond quickly. You should be able (if you deserve your diamond rating) to completely shut down your platinum and lower opponents in 10 minutes.
That was my thinking, as well. Again, if you were still learning the game while you were getting into Diamond the first time, it probably took a while. That doesn't mean you're going to have to play 150 long, drawn out macro games to get there again. If you've only got 20 games played and won 18 of them, I'm pretty sure you'll be playing the appropriate level of opponents. If you're playing Diamond opponents and winning, things will sort themselves out.
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On November 24 2010 18:47 Brad` wrote:
3 rax, 2 tech lab 1 reactor stim push should get you to atleast 2100 diamond.
It won't. Just cause you are probably over 2100 doesn't mean everyone below you are newbs. Rax rushes are awful unless you plan to tech and/or FE (in which case you should have 2 rax, initially).
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I love how people try to get a cheap way to win instead of working on their gameplay and basics.
And wonder why they get tore up at high tier games.
As a Protoss I really have no sympathy for people who 4 gates cannon rush or proxy to diamond and cry since they can't win anymore. As underpowered as Protoss is, it's because of mainstream of fast win trolls that make the valid complaints look like whining.
Good to see that terran does that or tries to look for it too
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On November 25 2010 01:20 DevanT wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping. When I open 3rax, the only thing that protoss can do to beat me is to attack REALLY fast with a 2 gate =/. That or better positioning/FE
You forgot to say Protoss at your level or up for actually validating your false claim?
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On November 24 2010 18:03 DennyR wrote:
You should srsly learn to play the game from the bottom. No offence, but I really think poeple should get away from playing 4Gate and 3Rax.You learn nothing using those and when you reach diamond you still have to learn the game, because you will lose every game when you reach a certain point.
What are you going to do then? Quit playing?
So learn to macro, learn to expand, learn the basics of playing Starcraft and reach diamond with real skill.
untill these builds stop getting people to high places on ladder, we shouldnt discourage people doing them
all players builds should have to be safe vs them so we dont seem them rise in popularity again later on
see also; the amount of 4 gating good koreans still do
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If you're looking for a "cheese my way to diamond" play, I would have to suggest 2 port banshees w/ cloak.
You can have 2 banshees in your opponents base killing their dudes in under 10 minutes.
It works against all 3 races.
You can choose to follow up with a real game if it doesn't go so well.
Best scrub cheese out there IMO.
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On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing.
i have to disagree here simply based on the fact that you dont really have to micro a 3 rax stim push to beat most people. At least 4 gates have to manage units that dont all do the same thing
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All I know is that I play Silver and every Terran player I've faced in the past week has beaten me BEFORE the Mid-Game on an extremely loaded initial Marine/Marauder push with Stim. I think I held it off once with large numbers of Sentries. Another time that it didn't happen I got beaten by a turtle into Ghost/EMP/Marine Tank Walk, which won simply because of how unorthodox it was.
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On November 25 2010 01:24 eth3n wrote:
I love how zerg is absent from this thread, yet all the Z OP talk generally...
So are T/P just the easiest races to blind strat/cheese your way through the game?
Both ideas feed one-another.
Zerg has 0 cheese options vs terran, so they must learn to play.
While cheese is viable against Z and P, its not game-ending most times, the best you can consistantly get out of it is a better economic position. In order to actually win, you have to back it up with solid game play.
Due to zerg requiring solid game play to even make it to diamond, everybody thinks they're OP in the late game (most because late game comes after a failed cheese).
Due to everybody thinking Z is OP, they cheese harder and harder, forcing Zerg to cut the fat and get an even stronger way to get to late game.
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4 gate and 3 rax are standard builds that aren't even all in. People who say learn to play instead of doing that are idiots who can't understand that it's a viable strat.
It has its pro's and cons but so does every build.
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On November 25 2010 01:48 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:24 eth3n wrote:
I love how zerg is absent from this thread, yet all the Z OP talk generally...
So are T/P just the easiest races to blind strat/cheese your way through the game? Both ideas feed one-another. Zerg has 0 cheese options vs terran, so they must learn to play. While cheese is viable against Z and P, its not game-ending most times, the best you can consistantly get out of it is a better economic position. In order to actually win, you have to back it up with solid game play. Due to zerg requiring solid game play to even make it to diamond, everybody thinks they're OP in the late game (most because late game comes after a failed cheese). Due to everybody thinking Z is OP, they cheese harder and harder, forcing Zerg to cut the fat and get an even stronger way to get to late game.
+1
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On November 24 2010 17:59 FirstQT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 17:57 Tianx wrote:
Bunker at ramp -> cloaked banshees works with even less mechanics. any sort of 3-7 roach rush crushes this
ever heard of scouting?
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i don't get the need to cheese to get to high levels, if you're playing inferior players, you'll steamroll them with macro in about 11 minutes, it's like oGsMc rolled Aya today in about the same timing both times, if you're just a much better player, it'll be the end pretty quickly
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Always FE , low tier opponents are almost never going for some sort of an 1 base semi-all in.
Bunker up, build a good economy, scout ,have map awareness, see what the opponent is doing ,make counters, go for the third expansion ,do medivac drops, make upgrades, build a lot production facilities, punish him for his mistakes.
Glorious victories awaits you Commander.
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lol wtf...
there is thousands of terrans who played their way into diamond with mm pushes and thats all they know....
well anyway there's a really mean all-in marine build, 4-5 rax without add-ons or gas.
A friend of mine played himself into diamond using this build only.
I think u have like 16 marines around 5-6 minutes, the only thing that easily stops this is early banelings and forcefields can help too. But there rly is not much that can counter marines for the same cost.
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On November 25 2010 01:25 farseerdk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 00:53 TheGiz wrote:
Protoss here.
How the hell do you stop a 3 Rax Stim initial push anyways? One can't simply macro ahead of it because Terran early game macro will always win due to MULEs. (I always win the macro game later with 2-3 expansions vs. a 1 or 2-base Terran.) I always go 3 gate Robo but can't get my first Colossus out in time to hold it off. I also get an Immortal instead of an Observer first, and I think this may be hurting me more than helping. It's all about expansion timing. 1) If you're going to FE, you must 1 gate FE. You cannot 3 gate expand. Once you FE, you must quickly get at least 6 warpgates and a robotics... as in BEFORE you fully saturate you natural. 2) If you are not going to FE, you must either get a robotics facility, or a lot of sentries and zealots 3) In any case, you must not make too many stalkers. They are very bad unless you expect banshees. 4) You must always use forcefield well.
Of course you can 3 gate expand. Why wouldn't you be able to? 3 gate 1 gas openings are great against mm openings and can be very economical. You don't need to get 6 gateways before teching, either. Tech is extremely important for protoss because as you hit the midgame, pure gateway units start to be cost inefficient versus terran. Also, stalkers are a very core unit for protoss. Always make at least a few stalkers in the beginning and more later on.
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On November 24 2010 18:05 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:03 DennyR wrote:
You should srsly learn to play the game from the bottom. No offence, but I really think poeple should get away from playing 4Gate and 3Rax.You learn nothing using those and when you reach diamond you still have to learn the game, because you will lose every game when you reach a certain point.
What are you going to do then? Quit playing?
So learn to macro, learn to expand, learn the basics of playing Starcraft and reach diamond with real skill. Bollocks. Korean players practice the same build over and over again, and they're pretty good, so why can't we?
Three rax is a build that allows transitoins. Sure, if they hold it off and hold an expansion you're somewhat boned, but just after 50 food you'll have enough for a cc, and expoing at 8 minutes ain't that bad. It's not an all ib build at all, although it's certainly not a four gate.
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I relied on 2 strategies to get me up to platinum as zerg (5rr ZvZ/P, baneling bust ZvT).
When I got to platinum and these stopped working, I was losing 90% of my games because I had very little experience in games longer than 10 minutes. Ended up getting dropped down to gold and now I default to speedling FE unless I scout something vulnerable or something that needs countering.
In bronze, silver, gold, and even platinum to some extent, you can use a pre-determined build and strategy and win a lot of games. In platinum and diamond, you need to be reactive to your opponent's strategy instead of hoping what you decided on pre-game works.
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3Rax is a joke. It can't even break a well-defended 1Gate FE, and then you'll be so far behind in tech and economy that you're soon to get 1-A'd by Collosus.
Like others have said, just play a solid macro strat and you'll crush inferior opponent in about 10 minutes. If you want faster, it's pretty much gonna be a cheese build of some kind...like the 6Rax Marine all-in.
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5 rax marines, intotherainbow did it in the allstar games. Walloff your ramp and make 4 raxes hidden behind, hide most marines and push out when you have about 12, while constantly rallying more.
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If you really made it to diamond with standard play then you should know how to cheese...
So I call bullshit on that.
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On November 24 2010 22:35 ace246 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 22:27 Dominator1370 wrote:
I'm actually quite confused... If you're a Diamond level player on another server, you obviously have at least A build you use that got you there. Shouldn't that one work...? Just because it may have taken you a decent amount of time to get to that point the first time doesn't mean it will again. If you haven't placed yet, you should be able to get there VERY quickly. If you have, well, the system seems to adapt pretty quickly. You can just play standard, roll all your opponents, and get promoted. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you're better off playing standard: you're less likely to lose against a player who doesn't just outplay you. Let me fill you in on my current situation. I want to play diamond in NA server because i am diamond in SEA server and i know im diamond material, i always played straight up macro in SEA but i want a shortcut to diamond in NA because i don't wanna deal with the people below diamond. All my build orders are for straight up macro like 1/1/1, 1rax FE,2 rax FE. Playing straight up macro to diamond takes hella long time. So i want to learn some cheesy, all-in, rush, agressive, any "finish-the-game-by- early/midgame" build orders.
Win like 6 games in a row and you'll be playing diamond opponents before getting promoted out of plat. Your MMR will jump way before your league promotion. Scout and counter? Plat and lower level players are especially easy to read. For a fast win, keep a scout in their base alive and smash their push with a proper response?
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On November 25 2010 11:04 nanoscorp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 22:35 ace246 wrote:On November 24 2010 22:27 Dominator1370 wrote:
I'm actually quite confused... If you're a Diamond level player on another server, you obviously have at least A build you use that got you there. Shouldn't that one work...? Just because it may have taken you a decent amount of time to get to that point the first time doesn't mean it will again. If you haven't placed yet, you should be able to get there VERY quickly. If you have, well, the system seems to adapt pretty quickly. You can just play standard, roll all your opponents, and get promoted. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you're better off playing standard: you're less likely to lose against a player who doesn't just outplay you. Let me fill you in on my current situation. I want to play diamond in NA server because i am diamond in SEA server and i know im diamond material, i always played straight up macro in SEA but i want a shortcut to diamond in NA because i don't wanna deal with the people below diamond. All my build orders are for straight up macro like 1/1/1, 1rax FE,2 rax FE. Playing straight up macro to diamond takes hella long time. So i want to learn some cheesy, all-in, rush, agressive, any "finish-the-game-by- early/midgame" build orders. Win like 6 games in a row and you'll be playing diamond opponents before getting promoted out of plat. Your MMR will jump way before your league promotion. Scout and counter? Plat and lower level players are especially easy to read. For a fast win, keep a scout in their base alive and smash their push with a proper response?
I had a 65% win ratio for ages in GOLD. but 50% of my opponents were between 1.5k-1.8k diamond (this was 2 weeks ago) the other 50% were plat. it took me around 70 games to get promoted to platinum, with a 65% win rate vs dia/plat, with an 11 win streak at one stage but still no use.
then it matched me vs a gold player, i won and got promoted, very strange. took 30 games as plat to get into diamond.... Sooooo yeah roughly 100 games vs diamond opponents with an above 60% win ratio to get into diamond. My friends used to pm me and say "how are u in plat with that win ratio" they'd be in diamond with maybe 50-52%.
ANYWAY. its pretty easy to end games with straight up builds vs weaker opponents, around as quickly as it takes to do some timing attack.. so i just recommend playing straight up, its never bad for you to reinforce the basics
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Play Terran. BAM, you're diamond.
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Australia326 Posts
So many people aren't reading the OP's actual situation.
He's already diamond in SEA (with macro play) and wants strats to end games early-mid so he won't have to waste time in the lower leagues on the NA ladder. Get off your high horses yo.
I suggest 5/6 rax marine all-in (you can bring SCVs if you want), or a 3rax stim push.
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today in GSL S3 Ro64 day4 (Z)check prime defended 5 rax stim with 1 spine and ling/banelings vs (T)destination GG
it was on steppes of war (game 2)
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On November 24 2010 18:41 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:36 cmp wrote:
There is no terran build as effective and easy to play as 4 gate. If all you care about is getting diamond why don't you just play protoss? The race lends itself very well to bad play as well so if something does go wrong it's much easier to deal with. Getting dropped? No problem, since your macro is terrible you'll have plenty of money to warp in units to deal with it exactly where they need to be. Forgot to macro while fighting? No problem, warp in reinforcements at a forward pylon. You can get away with playing really really badly and still make it seem like you know what you're doing. As a P player that got himself into mid diamond with T within trial account time period (granted, it was back when bonus pool wasn't this stupidly high), I strongly disagree. Any Bo that involves M & M is much easier to execute than proper 4gate. In fact I bet you can just n-rax marine all-in every game up to 2000+. \
Its true. I've played 2000+ players where they do someting like 3 racks all in pushes. They do it poorly to and I wonder how often does that wokr for them because it was so easy for me to fend off.
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On November 25 2010 15:30 eeniebear wrote:
Play Terran. BAM, you're diamond.
Kinda 2 months late on that joke there buddy.
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if it really doesnt matter why dont you just 4gate your way into diamond
correct me if im wrong but you made this thread just to get into diamond so why not just 4gate
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From what i have seen, you can play a macro game as a continuation from the 3 rax push fairly readily assuming you expand soon after you push.
This is not true for the 4gate for the most part, although the 4gate does seem to end games more often.
edit: if you did all in with SCVs as well this would be closer to 4gate imo.
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1 base thor allin. Bring all your scv's for repair. No micro/macro involved. (Just make sure you dont A move your scv's, they should be repairing the thors).
This is autowin against any fast expaning player. (except zerg, but its hard to deal with it as zerg anyway since the scv's surround thors and mutas come too late in too few numbers)
Not sure what the exact timing would be, but around 2 - 5 thors, 2 hellions and a shitload of marines.
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On November 24 2010 17:59 Tianx wrote:
Alternatively pull a Foxer and 2-rax SCV rush every game.
Pro: Works at the highest level, too.
Con: Takes actually micro.
I know that "Foxer" is good in all,
but usually when I see his game in gomtv, his games usually last only within 10-15 minutes
with his same plan all marine/scv rush.
Yes this does require hardcore micro, but what about macro?
I simply just get bored watching his game, that is all.
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this thread and most of the comments are not even funny. i dont like it, when people think that their league are of much more importance than the fun due playing the game. having a high ladder ranking is nice, but serves mostly selfconfidence and nerdboners.
so lolz from my silverish point of view^^
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On November 24 2010 17:59 Tianx wrote:
Alternatively pull a Foxer and 2-rax SCV rush every game.
Pro: Works at the highest level, too.
Con: Takes actually micro.
what if the protoss you fight have sentries that block the ramp?
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EPT
