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Before I start, a bit of an introduction. I play on the SEA servers and I am a Silver level (Link to Profile: only got promoted 2 weeks ago) player. However, being from the Day9 school of thought, my mechanics are pretty decent. As he would say, I make Pylons and Probes from the beginning and my macro is pretty decent as well and my mineral count is never too high until the late game where it starts to bank up.
Which is where the real problem starts? Against Terran and Protoss, I have a clear idea of what to do and usually execute it to the best of my ability. I still do lose against those races but it is not because my basic mechanics were at fault. I can even provide a link to my profile in which all the losses recently are against Zerg. I am now at the point where I am happy if my opponent is not a Zergy because I get the feeling that it would most definitely be a loss.
I find the main problem is that I just do not know what to do these days against Zerg. My brain literally stops functioning if I go up against Z and my hands are almost frozen. I literally miss all my early game timings from the Pylons to the Gateways to the CBs. I do not know whether to make a lot of probes and miss on the one or two early zealots in case I get Ling rushed. I do not know whether to make a lot of zealots by going 2-Gate because Roaches simply rape me. And I definitely do not know whether to get the Robo early for fear of Roaches.
I know the Protoss metagame against Zerg is in a kind of transitional state right now with the Roach buffs simply ruining everything. But I still don't have any idea what exactly do against a Z player. The problem being he/she can put a lot of early pressure on me and still drone up with multiple hatcheries and larva whereas that is simply not the case with me.
So, any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated? (I am not posting any replays because this is a general problem for me and it has more to do with my mental state than anything else.)
Edit: Am uploading a few replays, so bear with me. 
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I don't mean any offense by this but I don't think your mechanics are nearly as good as you think. If your mechanics are skilled u should be able to easily dominate any bronze-low diamond zerg with a 4 gate push. What is your apm at? When you win vs protoss and terran oppoents is that off of 1 base timing attacks or cheese?
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I also have some trouble against zerg. The only build I know of which is good almost no matter what the zerg does is Nazguls Blinkstalker build. If done correctly, it usually comes down to micro.
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I am really sorry, when I meant my mechanics are good, I was talking about what it usually is at my level which is Silver. Which means I can macro pretty decently without missing production cycles and all that stuff which is what I wrote in my first post.
When I win against Terran or Protoss, it is usually by holding off rushes and taking expansions and overpowering them. I never cheese for fear of it being scouted and held off. Against Terran it is usually reactionary to see what he is going for and then responding properly. With Protoss, it is usually with overpowering in sheer number from a large number of Warp Gates. I did not mean to brag that I was great or something, I was merely pointing out that since I did learn by watching and executing Day9's basics, I meant that those basics are in place. My APM usually averages anywhere between 80-100 in a normal game at the end.
I actually don't know what to pull off against a Zerg because of the Roach buffs. As I said it is like a mental block where my brain stops functioning against Z.
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Well if your apm is between 80-100 I would think you should be dominating the silver league. My advice watch about 10 protoss vs zerg replays and find a strategy you want to learn. However I highly recromend you pick something that 1) isn't cheese 2) isn't only effective on a select few maps 3) Requires you to use your apm. I think your best bet is a 3 gate sentry expand. You can pretty much do it on any map (though it loses its effectiveness on maps like scrap station where there is so much room for lings and roaches to get at your base. Basic idea is
1) wall in with gate cybernatics core
2) make a second gas and get 3 gates/warp gate asap
3) make about 6 sentries and expand
Eventually your going to want to do a lot more than that, but for now I would suggest use that build. Get hallucination right after warp gate upgrade. Then scout if he is hydra or roach heavy go 4-5 gate 2 robo collosus, with mostly stalkers/colossus. If he is going mutas go 5 or 6 gate with blink while slowly teching to templar. You will probably lose a lot at first but you will at least have a game plan going into each game. Eventually you will figure stuff out, and slowly begin to understand the matchup better.
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Monk, Really thanks for the suggestion. It gives me a lot to work with as far as basic strategy against Z is concerned.
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post a replay mate. cant helpo otherwise
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Yes, while you say you will not post replays, posting one would help us see any very basic flaws in your gameplay. While I agree that watching Day[9] helps you improve your basics by A LOT, seeing a replay will help us notice any fatal flaws that you yourself may be blind to.
For example, things like not doing a functioning wall vs zerg. Not a complete wall-in, but your post indicates difficulties vs early zerglings and with a proper wall you can hold off almost infinite amount of zerglings with a zealot + 1-2 supporting units.
Things like this, so a reply WOULD help us in helping you.
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If you do choose to go with the 4 gate. Make sure to hide forward pylons in the event that you need to warp in reinforcements.
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Hey guys, I have posted three replays on GR and linked to them here. Two are against Zerg and you can tear me apart to pieces in them. But, I have to say that I have a mental block against Z. I have also uploaded a replay against a Terran (admittedly a not too great one) whom I beat. But it does show that I have decent macro for my level which is Silver.
Let the ripping apart begin!
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-167217.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-167220.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-167219.jpg)
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as with most ppl in lower leagues, strategy/bo etc is rarely the problem. make sure to practice proper macro first (like making non stop probes). a lot of times when i see a lower lvl replay i see that they just kinda stop making probes at around 20/30 while a more realistic target is having like 60/70 probes on 3 base.
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APM really shouldnt be a factor as protoss until the high diamond, I manage to beat 1600ish players with 70apm as a protoss without too much trouble... its more about strategy and counters up until that point
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I have watched the first replay against the Zerg who went mutas into double evo chamber on one base, and I was more than surprised that you lost.
The execution of your 4-gate was alright until you turned them into warpgates. What you should have done is instantly warping in a set of units and move out to pressure/kill him. What you did was waiting unnecessarily long, getting Blink (which you never ever used) and moving out too late with an army that could have been substantially larger. Then you proceed into losing your entire base to 4 mutas instead of warping in a few stalkers which would have won you the game.
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ah wait now i watched the replays, here are some comments:
in general: after a very good start of constant probe production at around 30 you just seem to stop, ocassionally cbing 2 probes out. make sure this is constant and use cb on things like research.
especially in the game vs terran, you were very passive. now correct me if im wrong but at some points it just seemed that you were doing nothing more but building units out of your existing production facilities. I usually try to macro AND do something constructive such as:
-scout (and with scout i mean making sure you realy know whats going on: unit comp, expos, etc)
-harass/pressure
-expand
-or ofcourse just attack
you have decent apm but you dont seem to be focussing on micro. I saw that especially in your game vs terran you attacked with stalkers up front with the zealots being blocked behind them and completely forgetting about your colo! (it was around 17 min mark) this might not be fatal against that player but trust me, higher level players will rip you apart if you make mistakes like that.
now a bit more specific about the games:
vs terran:
-1st pylon is a bit late, no real problem ofc but its just one of those things that can slow a player down.
-you had to much money at some point
-if you had known about his unit compo you couldve gotten colo a bit earlier (skipping immortals)
vs zerg:
-your blocking of ramp wasnt tight enough. try this out: go to menu>options>gameplay>check show building grid. when you use this you can see the building grid devided into small squares when you are choosing building placement. try to leave an opening of 1 square, it should be enough for zealots stalkers and immortals. doing it like this allows you to completely block with 1 zealot.
-vs muta harass it can be really useful to just place 3 cannons between your mineral patch and nexus. make sure not to block your probes but these cannons will really hinder muta harass. adding +1 attack blink stalkers really makes mutas live's really tough.
the zerg player did kinda use a weird strat (1 base muta) and tbh with a well executed 4gate push you couldve crushed him. but overall i think you have very promising play, just keep the basics in mind and worry about finding the exact right unit composition later!
hope it helps, gl
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Yeah, I saw he was one-basing and getting fast Lair and decided that 4-gate should win it for me. I got blink because I knew he would go Mutas and thought that it would be good to have blink, but as you say I did not put it to good use. I think my hand kind of froze when I saw the Mutas in my base and I f***ed it up. Thanks for the analysis and any general tips against Zerg would also be of great help.
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B.I.G, Thanks for the comments and analysis and yeah I am working on a lot of things but my focus is on just getting the basics right because I am at Silver. I will definitely work on making those units do something instead of being passive as you have said and also try to get cannons behind my mineral line to help against those Mutas. Any general thoughts in how to open up against Z would also help a lot.
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Biggest advice I can give is for you to get hallucination. Scout the zerg almost constantly with hallucinated phoenixes.
You'll realise when he expands, how big his army is, what tech path he's going... etc.
With enough games you'll need to scout less and less because of the subtle things you learn when you only see a small portion.
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oh thats easy, just 4 gate the bastards to death 
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As a bronze/silver zerg. (high bronze.. mostly play silver players) I can tell you, as a Zerg if a protoss tries anything clever or cheesy i crush them easily. If they do a simple 1base 4 gate it rolls me everytime, much to my annoyance. Its mostly my own bad play, but simple 4 gating is probably enough to defeat the majority of low lever zerg just due to how messy our macro can be (talking low level zerg)
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Loss Against Zerg - 1:
-1 base Zerg loses to 1 base Protoss, when it comes to "resource war" - protoss units are more powerful and general concensus is (or seems to be) that Zerg needs 1,5 bases for every protoss base, in order to win. Because Zerg is 1-basing, you should be in no hurry to kill him. "Base trading" (see who kills each others base off first) is usually very bad idea, unless you are 100% sure you can win.
What I'm trying to say is: GO DEFEND when mutalisks come out. Or, at least kill them and go back to attacking. Leaving mutalisks alone is a mistake.
In case of this game, killing the 4 mutalisks and then returning to killing your enemy would have been enough.
Also, I'm not sure if your wall at your ramp is really tight enough? It's difficult to tell. You should only have 1 square room to move through. It is enough for even stalkers and immortals, but this way you only need 1 zealot to defend it vs zerglings. This way if you move out of your base with main army, zerglings can't just run in and kill off your probes.
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Loss against zerg 2:
-This time wall seemed good.
-You should REALLY stick around with your scout probe and see if he is expanding. If no expansion is coming form Zerg, you can be certain that some kind of early rush/attack is incoming. This way you can prepeare for it. In this case you could have built extra gateways, maybe even robo facility or cannon(s).
You would have had more than enough time to build a sentry while warping in more units from your extra gateways (3-4 total at least). If nothing else, instead of a stalker.
You REALLY should spend that money you have, at the beginning of the game every piece of resource counts. Having 300 extra minerals means 2 earlier gateways or THREE extra zealots you could have had. 100 extra gas is 1 extra sentry to block your ramp (while you wait for extra troops), or to split enemy roaches in 1/2 while they run up your ramp so that you only have to deal with 1/2 of them.
This "sticking around with probe to see if he expands" applies to loss #1 too, you can run the probe around in circles forever until first zerglings arrive, even then off-creep you can outrun them for a while if you have HP left. If zerg has no units you can even run in and see what tech structres he is doing. Use shift + click to insert multiple waypoints that the probe runs around while you do other stuff in your base.
Keeping count of enemy expansions is always important, but vs zerg it is absolutely ESSENTIAL, because if zerg expands you will fall behind very fast unless you do something about it. More advanced, platinum-diamond players need to learn how to prevent and/or force zerg to not expand but silver/gold players need to not worry about it too much.
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Win vs terran:
-I like to stick around with the scout probe to see if terran attacks or expands early.
-Observer scout for attacks and expanding was very good, imo. Just REMEMBER, a moving observer is easier to spot than a not moving one. Even if something is invisible other player may see the visual distortion graphic it has, and then knows to throw a scan on it.
-You should ALWAYS build troops from warp gates. You seemed to forget to do so now and then.
-Too much money again. Building lots of probes is good, but using the money is as important! You noticed this too after few minutes, but this is why you should constantly build troops (and probes and pylons): then you know exacly how much production you can support, and when you afford to add extra, like upgrades or more troop buildings.
-Poke the enemy around now and then, with a couple of units, observers or some other means of scouting so you know what they are up to. You could have ended the game at 17min mark or earlier if you had scouted enemy, seen he is weak, and just killed him. You had a 60 food (!) lead. With periodic poking around you can also keep track of his expansions, which becomes very important in higher leagues. I'm not saying you macroing up is WRONG, but sometimes not attacking gives enemies time to recover from losses. Your enemy had 2k mineral and 1,5k gas at 21:22. If he had played well he may have wery well caught up with your army size by now.
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Anyway, I think your basic macro and BASIC strategy were ok. If you refine it a bit you will skyrocket upwards from silver. TL;DR would be that I think you can improve your macro a bit (spending the money more wisely), and that you might be sometimes too aggressive when it's fatal, and too defensive when you don't need to or shouldn't be.
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....yeah, I was bored.
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On November 20 2010 22:40 Monk wrote:
I don't mean any offense by this but I don't think your mechanics are nearly as good as you think. If your mechanics are skilled u should be able to easily dominate any bronze-low diamond zerg with a 4 gate push. What is your apm at? When you win vs protoss and terran oppoents is that off of 1 base timing attacks or cheese?
APM is pretty irrelevant unless you are high diamond/pro.
Mine is around 45-55 and I am 1800 diamond.
not saying i'm great or anything (far from it) but APM isnt everything, some people dont need to click 10 times to move a probe from a to b.
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I will post per-replay I watch, rather than watch all 3 and try to remember.
In your game on Delta Quadrant, you made just a few small mistakes that cost you the game.
1) Right as you start your first stalker, an Ovie flies in your base. You had more than enough time to micro and kill it with that stalker, which would've put a cap on his economy (as he must spend 100 a new overlord instead of for drones).
2) You saw he went early double gas, sim-city'ed his base, went fast lair, and never expanded. This means Mutas. All you need to do is drop a forge, put two cannons by your min line, and 4gate slightly later. Zerg one base will not kill you, and the cannons will protect your mins from any amount of mutas he'd get on one base to counter you. (What I mean, is he will not be able to afford mutas for both harass and base defense. He'll either have to defend or base trade, and with the cannons, you'll win that)
3) You focus fired the Lair. Notice when he sent his mutas to you, he killed all your probes first? That way you couldn't afford to reinforce and were done. You should have done this. Don't bother focus firing a Lair when you could easily kill every drone in the base. Also you lost units killing the EVO instead of the crawler/queen/spawning pool.
4) Bring a probe with your army, and get a closer proxy pylon. Your second wave arrived way too late.
5) If you scout early 1base like this from a zerg, you do NOT need to be aggressive. You can sit back a little more, since he will not produce the economy he needs to build the units to beat you.
6) If you're going to make sentries (which you always should), use them!! Forcefield is the most important spell we Protoss have, and guardian shield is great against Mutas.
You're almost there, and should've won this game. Decision making is where you lost this. Kill econ first. Then, when they can't afford new units, target the Lair. Generally, you will get a GG before you even kill the lair from players like this.
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If you're mechanics were decent, you wouldn't be in silver.
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In the game of 'Xel-Naga, you lost this on scouting.
You sent your early probe over to his base, saw when he pooled, and left.
You should not leave your opponents base with your scout until you have a reason to do so. Had you continued to run around, you'd have seen him drop the fast roach warren, and you'd know you were getting the 7roach rush.
When you see this coming, you must get a sentry immediately. You can use forcefields (you may only need two?) to hold the ramp until your warpgates are done, and you are chronoboosting your immortal. Once that is done, FF BEHIND the roaches and make them run into the zealots you've warped in. Zealots + one immortal + no movement roaches = you destroy him.
In this situation, I would've used your zealots you were walling with to push back the roaches. Yes, you'd have suicided them and probably not killed a roach, but that 5-10 seconds it would've bought you could easily have changed that game- as you'd have gotten warpgate and your robo before he broke your ramp, instead of right after. I wouldn't suggest suiciding your zealots all the time, but this is one of those situation where more games (and thus better game sense) would have helped you realize just how close you were to being able to hold.
You made a good try to hold the rush, but again, some decision making (and lack of sentries) hurt.
TIP: If you scout the 7roach rush (roach warren around 20, fast gas which they don't stop mining, roach warren before expansion/queen), get a chrono boosted sentry before your stalker. Forcefielding ramps buys you SO much time, it's almost imba lol. Then make a couple stalkers and chip away as you get that immortal. Defend his push, get your 2nd immortal, and go kill him. His one base will not hold your counter push
EDIT; I'm going to ladder myself, will post on vT replay if you need help with that matchup as well.
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Thanks a lot guys, I am going to reply to each one of you.
Greentellion, I don't care whether you posted that just because you were bored, but thanks a lot for the analysis. I will look at my wall, I have trouble nailing it most of the time but the grid tactics suggested here to note at the amount of squares remaining will help. I will remember that base trading thought because I thought I had it in that game and obviously didn't.
Second game, I had a lot of money left because I just froze I think. Obviously that was a dire mistake and I definitely hear what you're saying. I also try to make better use of my scouting probe but the point is a few games ago I got it skilled because my control was not good enough, so I end up pulling it back ASAP. Obviously, that is also a mistake, so I will keep it in mind.
Against Terran, I have noted all your points. The big reason why I don't attack is because I am afraid of a mistimed attack and losing all my units because of it. But thanks for all the comments.
Durp, Again thanks for the awesome analysis. Overlord hunting is definitely important and I will keep it in mind. The tip of dropping a later 4-gate in favor of Forge and cannons is also something that really hits right at home with me as something that I should definitely remember when he is one-basing. All the other tips are also duly noted and I will apply them further.
In the second game, the basic point I see here is to make use of the scouting probe properly. And to get the Sentry first in general cases before the Stalker which I think has been noted here to be very important. The tip to scout the 7-roach rush is also helpful because that is something a lot of Zergs have been doing at Silver level.
And I would definitely like any productive replay you could offer me. Better if it is against Zerg but I have no problems with anything at all as everything will be helpful for me.
mrblue, Thanks for the comment. It is because of people like you that lower level players like me are afraid to post our replays for analysis. It is also because of people like Durp and Green that we are able to improve our game with the help of the awesome TL community.
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Hey!
I had some problem with Zerg for a while also, my problem was that the zerg outmacroed me and i was pretty much stuck at 2 bases and couldn't expand.
So i decided to try zerg for i while to get better understanding of it all. What i found out was that everytime the opponent poked at my base i stopped making drones. Just that feeling that you are under pressure stops you from making drones.(I'm not very good at zerg but anyway).
So back to my PvZ, i figured out that i need to make my opponent to feel under pressure and how do i do that? Just poke at his base, Simple as that!
My general idea vs Zerg is like this:
- 3 Gate, Blink stalkers timing push(mix in some sentrys and zealots) while expanding and getting a robo as soon as you feel secure
- If he decides to go mass Roach you have the immortal on the way
- If he decides Hydra, get a robobay --> colossus
- Muta? no way, then he is pretty much dead to you blink stalkers
Tips: Wall in with gate+core+zealot -- Get +1 weapon
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If you have problems with keeping your probe alive, you can put it on shift-patrol to circle around his whole base. It really lets you do other stuff without paying a large amount of your attention to your scout and you can still see everything that they are doing. Even if your opponent sends a worker after you, you won't ever take anything more than shield damage until they get attacking units out in any matchup. Also, make sure you don't send your probe through the mineral line. I've lost countless probes because my opponent trapped my scout as he was walking through the mineral line 
If you are around 14 food and the zerg hasn't made a pool yet pay close attention to any drones leaving the base and try to follow it. Pylon blocking a zerg's expo when they try to hatch first really puts a hitch into their plan.
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On November 21 2010 00:24 Greentellon wrote:
What I'm trying to say is: GO DEFEND when mutalisks come out. Or, at least kill them and go back to attacking. Leaving mutalisks alone is a mistake..
I dont agree with this
Id rather push zerg hard when mutas come out, mutas are most useless in a straight up fight.
Mutas are a harass unit, thats why they run like fuck when you fall back to defend your minerals.
Infact, tryin to defend against a mutaling is a losing battle. You will lose more and more probes and the zerg will comfortably expand over and over and macro the shit out of you
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Attacking when there are unchecked mutalisks about is an all-in. If your attack fails, you will be dead because you have no probes. Unless you manage to pull mutas into defence by attacking zerg base, but in the case of "Zerg Loss 1", mutas did NOT return to defence.
Day[9] recommended "preassure" as one way to deal with mutalisks, but if the map distances are long and you leave probes unattended it IS extremely risky. As far as I know there are 2 sure ways to kill a ball of mutalisks:
-Phoenixes
-High templars
Third option is the stalker/sentry ball supported by other units if you have them, attacking his base, but that's the move that may or may not succeed.
And THAT is why many protoss just HATE mutalisks. Defending gives map control to Zerg (unless you can beat them with Phoenixes/high templars), while attacking without defending leaves your probe lines wide open. Cannons work for small mutalisk numbers, but if the numbers grow mutas will just laugh and bust the cannons in seconds.
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On November 21 2010 05:46 DavidMcF wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 00:24 Greentellon wrote:
What I'm trying to say is: GO DEFEND when mutalisks come out. Or, at least kill them and go back to attacking. Leaving mutalisks alone is a mistake.. I dont agree with this Id rather push zerg hard when mutas come out, mutas are most useless in a straight up fight. Mutas are a harass unit, thats why they run like fuck when you fall back to defend your minerals. Infact, tryin to defend against a mutaling is a losing battle. You will lose more and more probes and the zerg will comfortably expand over and over and macro the shit out of you if he is going muta, his main army will be weaker. if you have a stalker heavy army cost for cost you can easily leave a few stalkers in your base (assuming you havent let him mass up a bunch in which case your problem isn't simply muta harass) and push with the rest of your army and if your economy isnt way worse than his your army will still be stronger.
mutas are a terrible direct combat unit. find ways to force him to directly engage your army and he will be punished for making muta unless his harass is ridiculously successful. if he only has 4-5 mutas even a cannon at your mineral line will defend enough for your push to be fruitful
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[QUOTE]On November 21 2010 00:25 Rarak wrote:
[QUOTE]On November 20 2010 22:40 Monk wrote:
I don't mean any offense by this but I don't think your mechanics are nearly as good as you think. If your mechanics are skilled u should be able to easily dominate any bronze-low diamond zerg with a 4 gate push. What is your apm at? When you win vs protoss and terran oppoents is that off of 1 base timing attacks or cheese? [/QUOTE]
APM is pretty irrelevant unless you are high diamond/pro.
Mine is around 45-55 and I am 1800 diamond.
not saying i'm great or anything (far from it) but APM isnt everything, some people dont need to click 10 times to move a probe from a to b.[/QUOTE
It is true you can get to diamond and get relativley high with low apm but you will hit a skill cap much faster than someone who can click twice as fast as you. Most diamond people with 45-50 apm either do extreme cheese every game, (and thats most of them,) or they happen to just have really good timing attacks and play smart. If your apm is 80-100 (not spam) in the silver divison as long as your macroing and constantly making units and not letting ur money stack you should win almost all of your games.
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Maybe SEA silver is more competitive than NA silver - as your BO looked pretty good and you were doing a very good job on mechanics for silver.
I only watched the first replay - but I would say this was somewhat bad luck for you. I know, its not good to make calls about luck - but those 4 mutas hit your base at a funny bad time - with your army across the map and the moment your money had hit <100.
I guess the question then is how can you force a situation where that exact form of bad luck is less likely to happen - and the answer is pressure.
If you had been knocking at his front door earlier putting pressure on and not letting him breath he wouldn't have had the chance to send those mutas cross map undetected. In one sense, yes it was bad luck, but in another sense we need to try to play in such a way as to minimize the chances for bad luck to happen - and that always means pressure and frequent skirmishing or relentless scouting. You were punished in this game for doing neither.
Once the 4 mutas were in your base, you had 16 minerals or so and an army across the map - going base trade may not have been a bad decision - i honestly don't know -- but the way to avoid losing like this is to figure out how to avoid being in that situation in the first place.
Maybe this is the kind of thing you need to work on to push past silver.
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[QUOTE]On November 21 2010 19:31 Monk wrote:
[QUOTE]On November 21 2010 00:25 Rarak wrote:
[QUOTE]On November 20 2010 22:40 Monk wrote:
I don't mean any offense by this but I don't think your mechanics are nearly as good as you think. If your mechanics are skilled u should be able to easily dominate any bronze-low diamond zerg with a 4 gate push. What is your apm at? When you win vs protoss and terran oppoents is that off of 1 base timing attacks or cheese? [/QUOTE]
APM is pretty irrelevant unless you are high diamond/pro.
Mine is around 45-55 and I am 1800 diamond.
not saying i'm great or anything (far from it) but APM isnt everything, some people dont need to click 10 times to move a probe from a to b.[/QUOTE
It is true you can get to diamond and get relativley high with low apm but you will hit a skill cap much faster than someone who can click twice as fast as you. Most diamond people with 45-50 apm either do extreme cheese every game, (and thats most of them,) or they happen to just have really good timing attacks and play smart. If your apm is 80-100 (not spam) in the silver divison as long as your macroing and constantly making units and not letting ur money stack you should win almost all of your games. [/QUOTE]
I never cheese - aside from cannons vs hatch first zerg on occasion. (which is a solid response).
When i watch replays of my opponents they often click multiple times to moce a scout, i tend to shift click and move on to something else. Back to the op - your biggest flaw if your apm etc is decent could be decision making and game sense. This is what i believe allows me to compete with and beat faster players.
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On November 21 2010 00:25 Rarak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 22:40 Monk wrote:
I don't mean any offense by this but I don't think your mechanics are nearly as good as you think. If your mechanics are skilled u should be able to easily dominate any bronze-low diamond zerg with a 4 gate push. What is your apm at? When you win vs protoss and terran opponents is that off of 1 base timing attacks or cheese? APM is pretty irrelevant unless you are high diamond/pro. Mine is around 45-55 and I am 1800 diamond. not saying i'm great or anything (far from it) but APM isnt everything, some people dont need to click 10 times to move a probe from a to b.
I completely agree. I get my ass kicked by 2k diamonds sometimes with 60 apm. I go back and watch the replay and I go HUH? He's missing timings, he's not macroing nearly as well as I am, HOW DID I LOSE TO HIM? And then I realize that he countered everything I did...
For the OP: since you already have decent mechanics, I would highly recommend you do as Idra says and 'play one build over and over and over.' It really teaches you important timings and transitions. I play zerg so I'll start with how I improved and then relate it to protoss.
The first build that I used against protoss was the 5 roach rush. I did it every single game for a while. A lot of people may think this is cheese or a terrible economic opener. But the fact of the matter is, it allowed me to play a aggressive opener that can transition into a lot of other builds. The games where my roach rush didn't do damage, I would transition into 2-base mutalisk.
As I advanced through the ladder, I wasn't winning as many ZvP games with my roach rush. I started playing muta-ling and it was much easier because I was forced to play muta-ling in all the games where my roach rush failed. Eventually, I switched to the speedling expand because that's what muta-ling opens with. And now I am now comfortable playing any unit composition against protoss. I have no strategy going in... (besides 14 pool, 16 hatch) I simply scout and react. Most of this was learned from my original 5RR.
If I were a protoss player, the 1 build I would choose against zerg would be undoubtedly the 4-gate. If you 4-gate every single game, you will have a great opener on any map which can transition into a macro game. Most people seem to think that if a 4-gate fails you will be behind economically, but this is not the case until you reach diamond league at the very least.
Just make sure to practice a build that goes up to 40+ supply. Don't vary it at all. The same thing every game... Eventually work your way down to the standard 13 gate 18 core and you'll see how smooth it feels when you're playing.
I think it's important for players anywhere below high plat to use the same opener against race x every single game. You shouldn't have to think about the build, you should be like a robot when you're doing it. Once you're able to do that, you can focus your attention on countering what the other player is doing while still being able to execute your opener/macro.
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vsportsguy (his post is too long for me to comfortably quote) is pretty much all right. I played toss all through the beta and for about a month after release. I started out just 4 gating every match-up until I hit a ceiling in PvT, at which point I started using 2-gate robo if I scouted any bio play.
What this did was solidify my sense for timings, an essential skill for any race. The only way you can really develop this sense is by having some sort of consistency between your games. Because it is impossible to force your opponents to do the same build over and over, the only feasible way to incorporate consistency is to be consistent in your own play. I have a friend who jumped from bronze all the way to plat over the course of two weeks because he 4 gated every game until he was at the top of his gold division, wherein he started to add some more variety to his play book.
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I highly suggest not listening to anyone saying anything along the lines of "don try to play smart, just 4gate"
While adding a solid 4gate rush to your arsenal of build orders is a great idea as toss, you should not attempt to climb the ladders by crushing your opponents with these "easy" strats.
When i was climbing bronze to gold I did however choose to commit to always doing one build (short of me scouting something cheesy) to focus more on my mechanics then my builds. Instead of choosing 4 gate however i would 3gate robo every game. I began to change the build around as i got better and eventually i started branching out.
Tl:dr Dont just 4gate to higher ranks, although choosing another solid not so cheesy strat may be a good way to learn basic mechanics.
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@Anomalist, I am the same guy as OP using a different account. And my goto build in every match up is a 3-Gate Robo with slight variations in whether I get Gates 2 and 3 first or the Robo first. I only 4-gate if I see something insane from my opponent like one-base Lair or something. The 3-Gate Robo expand is just an amazingly diverse build for anyone looking to climb up the ranks in my opinion. You can transition into pretty much any standard build using that.
Not saying 4-gate is not amazingly awesome. I <3 All the people who suggested my mechanics are good and I should 4-gate. But I do get the Robo for fast observer and just getting to know what the opponent is doing which I find essential to my style of play which is reactive by seeing what the opponent is going for.
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EPT
