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I'm currently ~ 1800 wondering what higher level zerg players prefer in Z v P or Z v T
So far I'm a lover of Hatch first at around 14 or 15 but it's starting to get really annoying when Terran's and Toss players build Pylon or Bunker block your NE. I hate having to have 1 or 2 drone patrol the entrance to prevent this from occurring. Having less then 2 drones effects your economy and you can't really use 2 hatcheries + 1or 2 queen to its full potential because of the mineral restrictions restrictions (you have to pay for drones + overlord + lings to scout). Hatch first is also annoying b/c harder to defend the NE and harder to defend all-in rushes compared to Pool first / delayed hatch. Pool first allows for early map control and it's easy to defend early attacks. So whats everybody else's take on it.
I remember watching a stream of Steve (aka Destiny) he said that pool first/ delayed hatchery was better on ANY MAP. He tried to test this with another zerg player but in the end both economies were very similar. Only way to get the real answer somebody needs to do a systematic test to both builds.
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Only way to get the real answer somebody needs to do a systematic test to both builds.
please let us know your results. kthx =)
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On October 29 2010 01:05 pingy[wen] wrote:Show nested quote +Only way to get the real answer somebody needs to do a systematic test to both builds. please let us know your results. kthx =)
Never said i was going to do it. haha Would take a very long time to do this because you'd have to use similar map location and everything has to go perfect.
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So you are voluteering someone else to do something for you... That takes alot of work... That you want... ...
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i was watching destiny's stream when he was testing this with copro. although they seemed similar, i would have to agree with the observation that pool first is far less risky for potentially a minimal economic benefit.
for the record, he and copro were racing to either 30 or 50 drones, only droning (+queens) and ended in a virtual tie each time. they did several trials, but each were subject to human error, etc.
it would be interesting if this challenge could go through that zerg bo optimizer thread....
bo's tested:
hatch first - 15h/14p
pool first - 13p/16h
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Depending on map. Close spawns I've been going back to 14/15 pool because of the same problems you're running into. I feel it's become more of a liability than a benefit.
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On maps where its much harder to defend the natural, (4gate on blistering sands for example) I really prefer to 15 hatch in base than 15 pool. The reason being that when I do take my natural expansion around 27 supply I have much more larvae for production available which = more units I have to defend. It can be very effective, but you honestly need to practice it a bit to get the feel + timings down.
Edit: Oh, and if he comes with the push as your hatch is building/built, the time he spent attacking that is well worth the 300 minerals since it gave you about a whole nother minute to build/prepare to takeout his force.
As long as he doesn't have his expo up and running, it really doesn't put you behind by much.
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The zerg build order optimizer isn't a build order tester. It only optimizes builds. There is no way of optimizing a build where you've already stated exactly when to expand, when to pool and when to build drones. can juggle around with the queen timing, but it's still just a simple search.
I can however give you the results on what the fastest way to get 4lings and 50 drones is...
I'll let it run for a while.
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On paper, going pool first gives you more production, and more money. Your queen finishes faster, and the fact the queen is cheap still lets you place a hatch quickly.
Going for a 15 hatch in base is always inferior. If you got an early queen you'd have more larva production than if you went hatch in base, and it would cost you half as much. That's until you got your second queen at least.
Queen gives you 6 larva per minute. Hatchery gives you 4 larva per minute. A queen takes 50 seconds to build, and the hatch takes 100 seconds to build. Even if you were to pool at the exact same time that you would hatch (Which you wouldn't) you'd still be behind.
Going Hatch first at your nat means your hatchery is established before any strong timing pushes can be executed. It's pretty tough to apply enough pressure to force a cancel on a 14 hatch in general. A later hatch is easier to stop because the other races have a chance to get their production established. A bunker shouldn't be able to block a 14 hatch, because your hatch will be going down before a barracks finishes. A bunker rush next to your hatch can be expected, but that can be stopped with drone and ling control.
I don't think I would say that pool first is less risky. Maybe pool first means you feel more safe, but what do you need those lings so early for? Unless your opponent is doing some all-in early gateway or barracks cheese, a normal barracks or gateway timing, especially now with the supply depot requirement for building the barracks is going to have a hell of a time forcing you to cancel that natural. However, if you delay putting that natural down, that's when you have the possibility that they actually have a reasonable sized force that can delay that hatch or force a cancel. The faster you can get the hatch up, the sooner you can get a spine crawler on it too.
I'd say it's just better to be able to stop the bunker rush with drones and your first few lings. Delaying that hatch a bit could mean you end up having to delay it much longer than you want to if 1base pressure is applied, and being down a hatch, or down 2 geysers if you hatch in main means you're going to have a hard time securing that number advantage that zerg needs to survive the midgame.
In my opinion, in the ultra-early game, yeah, it's a bit harder to defend hatch first than pool first. However, options that early in the game are limited, you only have to learn how to deal with a very few possible options that your opponents can throw at you. If you can learn how do deal with those possibilities, the benefits that the hatch-first build gives you in the midgame really more than make up for it.
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15 hatch/14 pool as long as you can pull it off and aren't very close positions
hiding the drone outside your natural works sometimes to prevent the block. their scout worker will usually at least check to make sure its not a 6 pool before he goes back down to block the hatch
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15 hatch/14 pool as long as you can pull it off and aren't very close positions
hiding the drone outside your natural works sometimes to prevent the block. their scout worker will usually at least check to make sure its not a 6 pool before he goes back down to block the hatch
i think its actually easier to defend most one-base allins (IE 4 gate) with hatch first provided you can get it down on time. its only really early aggression thats a little rough if it comes early enough (before the benefit from the extra larva can do anything)
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I prefer 14 or 15 hatch versus terran.
14 pool into hatch versus protoss. Because the early early pressure is quite a bit more powerful than terran.
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I'm running the build order tester with only one condition:
Get 50 drones and 4 lings (I didn't specify when the lings had to be out, but as long as the pool isn't stupidly late, you can always switch them for earlier drones with minimal delay)
Surprisingly... after almost 800.000 games played the fastest way to get 50 drones and 4 lings is... 10pool/10overlord
I guess drones are cheap enough for the extra larvae production from fast queens to really be worth it.
10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0
10 Overlord M:100 G:0
13 Queen M:153 G:0
16 Hatchery M:305 G:0
17 Overlord M:108 G:0
19 Queen M:202 G:0
22 Overlord M:103 G:0
35 Overlord M:327 G:0
36 Overlord M:489 G:0
36 Queen M:605 G:0
39 Overlord M:405 G:0
40 Queen M:255 G:0
45 Zergling M:286 G:0
49 Zergling M:199 G:0
50 Overlord M:149 G:0
This is only 20 minutes though, it might change at some point. the final drone pops at 6:18
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That's almost exactly what I did before I started getting 15 Hatch / 14 Pool up to the 22 Overlord. Always got a second Hatchery inside my main ASAP Guess I was a bit smarter (ignoring the fact that I didnt build the Hatch at my Natural) before I read those build orders.
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Some of you guys aren't understanding the reason for this post. If you go to higher level gaming 1700+ rating. 70% of the Terrans/ Toss's will attempt to delay your FE as long as they can whether it's Cannon/Bunker rush / Blocking ramp/ building pylon or bunker or engineering bay on expo location. They won't allow you to build your expo freely w/o pressure. Good players scout right before you can get your hatch up (especially toss's). Your Expo will be delayed to the point where it's not that useful. The 300 minerals you saved up for hatch would be better spent Droning or a later/earlier pool
This post is not about whether you can defend your FE. It's about the overall advantage. FE strat is always accompanied by Droning/defending to some type of Timing push/attack. Pool first is a lot more flexible in that you can do any strategy you want.
FE is VERY predictable.
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on 2 players maps its hard
on 4 player you can usually get the 15 hatch down uncontested if you hide a drone and/or aren't close positions. like I said most people will at least check for an early pool before they start blocking the natural
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On October 29 2010 01:55 Palmar wrote:
I'm running the build order tester with only one condition:
Get 50 drones and 4 lings (I didn't specify when the lings had to be out, but as long as the pool isn't stupidly late, you can always switch them for earlier drones with minimal delay)
Surprisingly... after almost 800.000 games played the fastest way to get 50 drones and 4 lings is... 10pool/10overlord
This is sort of surprising. I almost wonder if income is being overestimated by the simulation or something. Or we are all just pooling way to late and hatching way too early.
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I think you are answering your own question in a way though, aren't you?
I mean if you are finding you are getting blocked/cannoned/bunkered and aren't successfully defending with hatch first then you have to pool first. You know the solutions, can patrol a drone at the choke, can have drones ready if an scv shows up, etc. but you've already stated you don't like the economic hit you take from that so make your pool first. Not sure what magic answer you are expecting otherwise.
I mean my honest answer would be just gauge it on the map... some maps you can go hatch first and the risk of the above are a lot less. If that is the case I think hatch first is better. However, if it is a map that lends itself to the easier harass, or you get close positions etc. then pool.
The build optimizer is always fun to look at. I might try a 10pool/10 ol/16 expand tonight and see how it goes. Could fool someone into thinking you are doing like a 10 pool 1 base type build.
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On October 29 2010 01:45 zeidrichthorene wrote:
Going Hatch first at your nat means your hatchery is established before any strong timing pushes can be executed. It's pretty tough to apply enough pressure to force a cancel on a 14 hatch in general. A later hatch is easier to stop because the other races have a chance to get their production established. A bunker shouldn't be able to block a 14 hatch, because your hatch will be going down before a barracks finishes. A bunker rush next to your hatch can be expected, but that can be stopped with drone and ling control.
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You obviously do not know your game timings if you think a 14 hatch is invincible to bunker rushes. Bunker rushes are there to just delay your economy. Stopping the bunker rush is not even the issue. It's what comes after it. A terran will most likely be able mine very efficiently compared to you w/ orbital command. Plus what makes bunker rushes cheap is the salvage button. Terrans are at no loss if they just delay your expo. They can easily salvage and run away after you make 10 lings in an attempt to kill bunker the bunker
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EPT
