|
Im a Masters terran that uses this opening against zerg to pretty good effect, it opts for a slighter later expansion in favor of harrassing and scouting the zerg. here are the stats on my two accounts.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1465649/Pookie
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/526429/LegendofBert
For my build you should go standard 10 supply but make gas before rax to get a fast factory. use your depot building scv to scout and make sure hes actually doing a FE build. You should be continually pumping marines, as soon as factory is up you make starport and medivac, you should make a helllion to harass/scout and clear xelnaga towers, and hopefully get him to make alot of frontal defense and only anticipate hellion harrass. after the hellion pops out you need to make a reactor add on then switch it out with your barracks to double marine production.
Once medivac pops out you should send your 6 marines and the hellion to his main to harrass and do some damage, but most importantly GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES. overlords and queens are your targets here supply blocking him and reducing his queen number. he will likely run his drones to his natural but dont follow them just kill what u can in his main. killing queens makes banshee harass more devastating as well as the first timing push. be smart with your drop try dont lose the marines. with your starport you should make a banshee and an armory for thors as well as throwing up your own expo. the beauty of banshees is that they allow you to secure your expo with map control until he gets mutas.
use the banshee for defense if hes being aggresive with lings or roaches otherwise use it to once again clear watch towers and destroy his spreading creep tumors only use the banshee to attack his main if he handled your drop poorly and allowed you to kill his queens or severely weaken them. once your expo is up and running you should continue to pump thors, rines and banshees as gas allows then go for a quick push push once you have either 2 or 4 Thors. Depending on the situation i find the two thor push with all your marines and a banshee or two to be the most effective as many zergs have not yet put up a baneling nest and certainly will not have centrifugal hooks. they will not have many mutas out yet if any as well, this allows you to pick off the banelings before they take out your rines and scvs, spread the rines to reduce damage, if u have foxer grade marine micro or he neglects to make a baneling nest this push is absolutely devastating and ends many, MANY of my terran vs Zerg games.
if you still have your drop ship and marines you can do a two pronged attack against his main and natural as he will likely need everything he has to hold off your rines banshees and scv repaired thors and may not even notice the drop in his main. alternatively you can make an extra dropship and use your two dropships to lift your thors back to your base when they are nearly dead this is incredibly annoying if the zerg does not have mutas as it allows you to push again with 4 thors almost immediately after they are repaired at your base, if the zerg goes straight muta and tries to 3rd expand its usually GG. if he goes roaches and banelings with no mutas u can use your banshees and dropship/marines to harass and deny him third. Its your choice whether to stay bio mech switch to all mech or go bio for late game, you have all the structures neccesary to start you off on any tech path you choose. If hes going ling bling muta i like to go preignitor hellions marines and thors, throwing in tanks once i have the +2 attack upgrade for mech which allows the thors to two shot mutas. the replays will show more detail, enjoy, My apm is only about 100 so this isnt stuff that requires incredible micro and is very viable in high diamond ive beaten cellawerra and Rigid with this build two great zerg players that have live streams here on TL. GL
Legendobert is my second account Pookie is my primary one
The replays are listed in terms of quality with the top ones i feel being the better execution of the build against better players. If you want to add this strat to your TVZ arsenal the top 8 replays are must watches, the rest are if your bored and to show more proof of how just how much i win with this build. The replay at the top is there for you to get an idea of how u can transition into late game if you dont roll over the zerg with the first push although i have to say i think the reason he didnt die is because my 8 scvs werent on auto repair -_- nonetheless it allows me to show you that the push isnt an all in by any means and and if you watch the food count the zerg was never far ahead if at all after the push do to constant pressure. as always i made numerous mistakes and this further illustrates in the hands of a better player this build will be even stronger :o)
TVZ Pookie Build vs fpx on shakuras plateau
Pookie build vs tqswarm
Pookie Build dealing with two base baneling busts and mass ling muta
TvZ Pookie Build vs Cellawerra Metalopolis crosspawn
TvZ Pookie Build vs Victor Metalopolis
TvZ Pookie Terran Build vs top 100 NA Zerg jungik
TvZ Pookie Terran Build dropship/banshee harass into thor push
TVZ Drop harrass into marine banshee thor push
TvZ marine banshee thor build with two pronged push vs Just
TvZ Pookie Build Vs OwMyGroin LT
TVZ Pookie Build vs Rigid Shakuras Plateau funny rage by Rigid at the end
TVZ FE harass into Marine thor push
TVZ FE harass into marine thor push2
TVZ FE harass into marine thor push3
TVZ FE harass into marine thor push4
TVZ Strat
TvZ Drops marines banshees Thors opening
TVZ Harass into marine thor banshee push
I just want to point out that even though this thread is about attacking a zerg with an expo it is just as effective if not more so against a zerg on one base here are a few replays of the build against a zerg that doesnt FE
TVZ Pookie Build vs One base Zpux on LT
heres one of those dreaded roach pushes people keep raving about heh
One base roach push defense
|
I have a feeling the Foxer Marine Shenanigans will be oh so prevalent in the ladder for the next week or so  Guess I can't be such a greedy hatch-first-no-questions-asked kinda guy anymore.
|
Do you have a more general build order you follow? And how do you have enough gas for the double pumping banshee and thors...? Granted I guess you are saying push out with 4 thors.. but it seems really gas heavy...
I will def give a try.. was just wondering if you had a general order for when you decided to drop down you're other factories and starports.
|
On October 27 2010 23:16 mierin wrote:I have a feeling the Foxer Marine Shenanigans will be oh so prevalent in the ladder for the next week or so Guess I can't be such a greedy hatch-first-no-questions-asked kinda guy anymore.
yeah i started doing BETTER against zerg after the patch because i never used the reaper build and zergs now think they can FE and make no units and be just fine with a spine crawler and thier nat, dont think its supposed to be that way
|
On October 27 2010 23:25 n0xi3 wrote:
Do you have a more general build order you follow? And how do you have enough gas for the double pumping banshee and thors...? Granted I guess you are saying push out with 4 thors.. but it seems really gas heavy...
I will def give a try.. was just wondering if you had a general order for when you decided to drop down you're other factories and starports.
you can watch just one rep if u want to get an idea but since once i make the medivac i make my second refinery, i dont actually get the second fac until my expo is up, and i get double gas geysers at my expo ASAP, ur mules are more than enough to get you minerals, your drops reveal what the zerg is doing as he cant really hide anything so ur free to mule away
|
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote:
GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES
The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup.
|
Funny you mention this because I have just been PM'ing iEchoic about a similar strat that I do.
I dont go gas first (something i'm now going to try) but i will get a barracks x2 depot wall in to prevent scout lings while CONSTANTLY building marines. I get a factory asap followed by armory. During this time it allows me to build an inbase CC (to lift off to my main during my first push) while building armory i get a single hellion as a decoy hoping to get the zerg to over compensate for hellions. while getting a starport im usually able to get my first thor pumping. After starport i quickly get one medivac and move out w/ 10 or so marines 1 medivac and a thor timing push. On maps w/ ledges i can do thor drops but if you even want to go right up front there are usually no more then two spine crawlers and with medivac micro you can lift up the thor or weak marines and re drop them during a battle to get the agro off of them from the roach/ling infestation.
EVEN IF YOU DO lose that first push you have forced them to stop droning, weakened their timing push, and evened things out for the mid game. Now you have an expo and can focus on more of a tank/1-2 thors/MMM ball.
Come mid game i find it VERY important to keep your tanks split into two control groups. I use half my tanks in control group 3, and half in control group 4. When the battle comes make sure to use those control groups to individually focus fire on BLings. Even if you get 1/3 of the banelings its better then your whole bio army getting steam rolled. And of course bring your bio to the back or the side so you can split them or move them to the back of your army until blings are gone.
|
On October 27 2010 23:16 mierin wrote:I have a feeling the Foxer Marine Shenanigans will be oh so prevalent in the ladder for the next week or so Guess I can't be such a greedy hatch-first-no-questions-asked kinda guy anymore.
You know it! I always thought mass marine was such a newbish thing but you know what? With proper micro, they're good against just about EVERY zerg unit w/ medivac support until T3. Throw in late marauders for extra kick vs roach and to tank banelings.
|
My style:
10 sup.
12 rax
13 gas
17 fact
18 fact
1 fact with reactor
1 fact with techlab
First harass with 4/5 helions.
Depending on damage and zerg build...or thor/marine/helion or another helion harass, with blue flames this time.
Split the second harass in 2 groups of 4/5. 1 group harasses minline of exp, second in main.
|
On October 27 2010 23:40 ViPer[RuSh] wrote:
My style:
10 sup.
12 rax
13 gas
17 fact
18 fact
1 fact with reactor
1 fact with techlab
First harass with 4/5 helions.
Depending on damage and zerg build...or thor/marine/helion or another helion harass, with blue flames this time.
Split the second harass in 2 groups of 4/5. 1 group harasses minline of exp, second in main.
eh i find better zergs get roaches out early which make double hellion kinda dated, the money spot is the main which is generally only guarded by a single queen getting that fast medivac puts alot of pressure on the zerg until he gets mutas, IF he gets mutas
|
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill a lot of roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line), and even then it still takes a banshee 2 minutes to kill 13 roaches or so.
|
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
|
I guess my "normal" style i kinda similar. I usually go rax - fac - starport. But i do contiuous hellions and marines giving me 3 hellions and 8 marines when medevac is out.
I push him with my first hellion and ~~ 5 marines just to poke, and force some lings/sunkens
Then rally everything to outside his base and elevator all my stuff up there if i feel it will pay off 
Then banshees and in the end i do either heavy MMM or mech (whichever seems appropriate).
Also around 2K diamond.
|
That first replay has some potential. Have you practiced it a lot against different Zergs and their various FE transitions?
Especially if the second drop wasn't sacked, you are looking really good.
I'm kinda concerned how this would hold up against banelings.
|
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
|
You do need an extra hatchery for the production, and you do need a better economy because Zerg units aren't that great, but you sure as hell don't need TWICE as many bases.
And MULEs? For fuck's sake, they're worth 4.5 workers. You think that's equal to a whole friggin expansion?
|
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote:
as i rarely lose to zerg as a 2050 point terran
Well, because you play on the NA server lol Try playing on the Korean server and rarely lose to zerg.
I'm just giving you a hard time : ) Good concepts though.
|
On October 28 2010 00:16 PackofHighly wrote:
That first replay has some potential. Have you practiced it a lot against different Zergs and their various FE transitions?
Especially if the second drop wasn't sacked, you are looking really good.
I'm kinda concerned how this would hold up against banelings.
yes i have its strongest against muta transitions but i do well vs all and yeah i just want to point out that im not the best player and everyone of those replays could be better in the hands of a more capable terran or someone with just more apm, and i noticed most zergs dont actually get banelings until much more later then when i push they rather save thier gas for roaches or muta
|
Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this.
|
On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote:
Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this.
I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
