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On October 28 2010 01:00 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote:
Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this. I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha
Well the point is, you won't RELY on doing ONLY this. But, this is 3rax FAST, SHIELD push... that means you will push alot earlier because stim takes alot of time to research, after u do this EARLY EARLY push with shells and shield, you will have to make ur expo FAST, get a fact/starport... OR just make more rax and continue with bio... depending on his unit combo..
My point is, this push will serve to replace hellion harass with a bio harass early on, allowing you to come even into midgame OR in best case scenario, you will actually KILL his natural with the first push, because he is unaware that u are going 3rax to early on him... this depends on you killing his scouts and tricking him with mind games... :D
Try it
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One thing I have had success with is a heavy air focus. Rush for banshees, then follow it up with viking harass (kill overlords, actually does well against mutas if you have enough) and more banshees. this forces them to get mutas or hydras. If they go mutas mass vikings actually does well if you fight smart/kite/etc. hydras die to hellions. if he build roaches, build a couple bunkers
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I find the double scv bunker build with a marine in my natural causes me to slowly lose over time. I lose the hatch, but then terran keeps the pressure on using whatever transition he wants, and eventually takes a 3rd while i'll still trying to saturate my natural which i've rebuilt 2-3 times.
edit: this is when I do 14 hatch 14 pool builds. I'm going to try doing 14 pools on map with close spawns instead of always 14 hatching against terran. I feel when the terran pressures at the right times, the hatch before pool can put me in a hole.
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You got to 2000 diamond without using hotkeys for production? -.-
That was pretty good. I think you need to build marauders earlier and cut down on maybe a thor since a few of the zergs opted for mass roach. You also get supply blocked at 70 almost every game. I like the build though.
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On October 28 2010 01:25 diw117 wrote:
You got to 2000 diamond without using hotkeys for production? -.-
That was pretty good. I think you need to build marauders earlier and cut down on maybe a thor since a few of the zergs opted for mass roach. You also get supply blocked at 70 almost every game. I like the build though.
I have to say thats something i need to work on and probably is what keeps me from being higher on the ladder is the hotkeys macro :o(
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On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG.  I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out).
Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
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I'm surprised more terrans don't just open with mass bio. The majority of zerg aren't planning banelings until they have lair, which is a long way away generally. Granted, I'm only playing noob 1500 diamond level, but typically I die to surprising early pushes (hide tech, if my 1st drone sees 3 rax it won't work, a marine or two on base border to fend off overlord eavesdropping). Hidden tech is key, but easily achieved. I know a lot of people don't like to play that way but its a long way from auto-lose if he scouts it... then you just tech to medivac. The thing for Z is that if he sees you fending his borders with marines and refuse to let you see his tech, he has to get lair and get ready for banshee/medivac-drops. And then instead you roll out with a pile of stimmed bio and squish him. Spines are garbage against marauder and roach/ling is not cost effective without baneling or infestor support. This timing push kills me more than I would like to admit.
I mean, fuck denying the FE, just let him FE and then KILL IT. Far better option imo. And if he is roach pushing, like a couple people mention, you flat out win the game when his roaches get slowed/stomped at your entrance.
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On October 28 2010 01:40 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example. watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays. Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs). The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
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On October 28 2010 02:05 ToxNub wrote:
I'm surprised more terrans don't just open with mass bio. The majority of zerg aren't planning banelings until they have lair, which is a long way away generally. Granted, I'm only playing noob 1500 diamond level, but typically I die to surprising early pushes (hide tech, if my 1st drone sees 3 rax it won't work, a marine or two on base border to fend off overlord eavesdropping). Hidden tech is key, but easily achieved. I know a lot of people don't like to play that way but its a long way from auto-lose if he scouts it... then you just tech to medivac. The thing for Z is that if he sees you fending his borders with marines and refuse to let you see his tech, he has to get lair and get ready for banshee/medivac-drops. And then instead you roll out with a pile of stimmed bio and squish him. Spines are garbage against marauder and roach/ling is not cost effective without baneling or infestor support. This timing push kills me more than I would like to admit.
I mean, fuck denying the FE, just let him FE and then KILL IT. Far better option imo. And if he is roach pushing, like a couple people mention, you flat out win the game when his roaches get slowed/stomped at your entrance.
This is exactly what i am saying..
Don't try to delay his expansion, but muster enough forces to destroy it early on, or at least kill enough drones or force enough army to hurt his natural so much..
This is done excellently by hiding tech with 3rax shield push or just teching if scouted and then pushing.
Terrans. We must, MUST, find a new to punish early hatch. It can be done. It must be done.
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On October 28 2010 02:06 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 01:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example. watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays. On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs). The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns). i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
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On October 28 2010 02:05 ToxNub wrote:
I'm surprised more terrans don't just open with mass bio. The majority of zerg aren't planning banelings until they have lair, which is a long way away generally. Granted, I'm only playing noob 1500 diamond level, but typically I die to surprising early pushes (hide tech, if my 1st drone sees 3 rax it won't work, a marine or two on base border to fend off overlord eavesdropping). Hidden tech is key, but easily achieved. I know a lot of people don't like to play that way but its a long way from auto-lose if he scouts it... then you just tech to medivac. The thing for Z is that if he sees you fending his borders with marines and refuse to let you see his tech, he has to get lair and get ready for banshee/medivac-drops. And then instead you roll out with a pile of stimmed bio and squish him. Spines are garbage against marauder and roach/ling is not cost effective without baneling or infestor support. This timing push kills me more than I would like to admit.
I mean, fuck denying the FE, just let him FE and then KILL IT. Far better option imo. And if he is roach pushing, like a couple people mention, you flat out win the game when his roaches get slowed/stomped at your entrance.
Bleh. 3 rax is good if the Z doesnt scout and gets caught offguard with 50 drones. Watch IdrA vs. ajtls on Scrap Station. IdrA beat him in a straight up match and lost on LT due to a gay (hidden + faked other BO) thor drop on his cliff. Then it goes to a 3rd match and ajtls, knowing he's up against a clearly superior opponent goes for a hidden 3 rax push. IdrA is VERY VERY aware of his lack of scouting and goes for quick lair (which is standard in his ZvT BO anyways) in order to suicide an overseer. He sees a complete lack of tech or economy and then finds the hidden rax with a speedling. He manages to easily fend it off with spine crawlers and speedlings since he can make so much more stuff out of 2 hatcheries with his perfectly timed injects than the measly 3 rax of ajtls. The longer the game goes (i.e. he doesnt lose economy right when the push hits) the weaker the 1 base all in gets, allowing the 2 base eco + production to overcome the T. (ajtls even said "wow youre sick good" after the match)
Mass bio is all in against Zerg because banelings + infestors (properly controlled which almost noone manages to pull off at the moment) deal with it so well. You have a really hard time transitioning into marine tank because you start your tank production so late (while also having to keep barracks out of production due to a lack of funds) and Z has map control, basically able to whatever he wants.
My suggestion is to do something close to what FoxeR did vs FD today. Apply early pressure to force lings instead of economy and do just very straightforward and strong 2 base plays that allow for a varietyy of transitions and tech paths-
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against ZERGs, this is my standard build as a 1.5k diamond terran
10 supply
11 refinery
12 rax
(you delay 1 scv production with this fast refinery build)
pump 1 marine
get factory right after barracks
reactor on barracks
swap factory with barracks
pump 2 helions to harass
then another 2 helions to harass (depending on situation)
now if the map is not too big, and zerg went something like 14hatch he will have about 2 lings and queens to deal with it
this is my standard opening
usually after this i switch to thors and expand to my natural with planetary fortress, and get upgrades for vehicle weapon to 2, then max out later on
upgrade blue flame and continually harass, just run these all over the map, picking off drones or lings...
now i want to say something here, if you cant pick off drones, lings are a VERY VERY good alternative to keep his food down and waste his lavas on lings
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On October 28 2010 02:40 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:06 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example. watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays. On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs). The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns). i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays? Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread
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On October 28 2010 03:07 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 28 2010 02:06 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example. watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays. On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs). The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns). i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays? Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings. how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread
1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled
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On October 28 2010 03:21 jHERO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:07 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 02:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 28 2010 02:06 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example. watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays. On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs). The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns). i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays? Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings. how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread 1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled
yeah i know that but that build that this fool is talking about when the zerg has 10 roaches and the terran only has 4 marines simply doesnt exist which would explain why in the hundreds of games ive played against zerg no one has ever done it, the closest ive seen off a two base zerg with a roach push is 5 or six roaches when i have 8 marines and a hellion and medivac and a banshee on the way and that was from cellawerra. ive never had a two base zerg push me with roaches early to to an extent that i couldnt deal with it with what i had
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On October 28 2010 01:03 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 01:00 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote:
Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this. I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha Well the point is, you won't RELY on doing ONLY this. But, this is 3rax FAST, SHIELD push... that means you will push alot earlier because stim takes alot of time to research, after u do this EARLY EARLY push with shells and shield, you will have to make ur expo FAST, get a fact/starport... OR just make more rax and continue with bio... depending on his unit combo.. My point is, this push will serve to replace hellion harass with a bio harass early on, allowing you to come even into midgame OR in best case scenario, you will actually KILL his natural with the first push, because he is unaware that u are going 3rax to early on him... this depends on you killing his scouts and tricking him with mind games... :D Try it
Since the patch I 3 rax alot with Shield instead of Stim. Effective and faster then a stim push.
I also been doing 2 rax 1 fact.
As i can either do a marine tank push or a risky marauder hellion timing attack right before Lair tech. The latter pretty much counters all Zerg Tier 1 if the zerg just massed Roach ling which most do now. And is only weak to Muta so i expand and drop and armory.
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On October 28 2010 04:07 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 01:03 MasterFischer wrote:On October 28 2010 01:00 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote:
Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this. I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha Well the point is, you won't RELY on doing ONLY this. But, this is 3rax FAST, SHIELD push... that means you will push alot earlier because stim takes alot of time to research, after u do this EARLY EARLY push with shells and shield, you will have to make ur expo FAST, get a fact/starport... OR just make more rax and continue with bio... depending on his unit combo.. My point is, this push will serve to replace hellion harass with a bio harass early on, allowing you to come even into midgame OR in best case scenario, you will actually KILL his natural with the first push, because he is unaware that u are going 3rax to early on him... this depends on you killing his scouts and tricking him with mind games... :D Try it Since the patch I 3 rax alot with Shield instead of Stim. Effective and faster then a stim push. I also been doing 2 rax 1 fact. As i can either do a marine tank push or a risky marauder hellion timing attack right before Lair tech. The latter pretty much counters all Zerg Tier 1 if the zerg just massed Roach ling which most do now. And is only weak to Muta so i expand and drop and armory.
I definitely agree with the stim part and I think it's something that will dawn on a lot of players when they see pros do it (TLO went shields first vs NaDa). I've done extensive unit testing with marines and there is almost NO units remaining-difference between marines with stim and marines with combat shields. However, the CS-marines have a lot more health at the end of the battle and how often have we seen players over-stim and wind up with a force of 15 HP marines that get picked apart by a few lings? Oh yeah, CS is 30 seconds faster than stim (110 vs 140)
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On October 28 2010 04:38 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 04:07 Raiden X wrote:On October 28 2010 01:03 MasterFischer wrote:On October 28 2010 01:00 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote:
Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this. I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha Well the point is, you won't RELY on doing ONLY this. But, this is 3rax FAST, SHIELD push... that means you will push alot earlier because stim takes alot of time to research, after u do this EARLY EARLY push with shells and shield, you will have to make ur expo FAST, get a fact/starport... OR just make more rax and continue with bio... depending on his unit combo.. My point is, this push will serve to replace hellion harass with a bio harass early on, allowing you to come even into midgame OR in best case scenario, you will actually KILL his natural with the first push, because he is unaware that u are going 3rax to early on him... this depends on you killing his scouts and tricking him with mind games... :D Try it Since the patch I 3 rax alot with Shield instead of Stim. Effective and faster then a stim push. I also been doing 2 rax 1 fact. As i can either do a marine tank push or a risky marauder hellion timing attack right before Lair tech. The latter pretty much counters all Zerg Tier 1 if the zerg just massed Roach ling which most do now. And is only weak to Muta so i expand and drop and armory. I definitely agree with the stim part and I think it's something that will dawn on a lot of players when they see pros do it (TLO went shields first vs NaDa). I've done extensive unit testing with marines and there is almost NO units remaining-difference between marines with stim and marines with combat shields. However, the CS-marines have a lot more health at the end of the battle and how often have we seen players over-stim and wind up with a force of 15 HP marines that get picked apart by a few lings? Oh yeah, CS is 30 seconds faster than stim (110 vs 140)
alot of people get shield before stim even against protoss such as with the ghost marine build
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get replays up plz, anyone can theorize about a strat, but replays would mean much more, especially since every strat seems to come from 2k terrans.
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On October 28 2010 07:58 SCling wrote:
get replays up plz, anyone can theorize about a strat, but replays would mean much more, especially since every strat seems to come from 2k terrans.
are you talking to me? cause i put replays in the topic starter
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EPT
