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On October 28 2010 04:04 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:21 jHERO wrote:On October 28 2010 03:07 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 02:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 28 2010 02:06 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know This is WRONG.  I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example. watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays. On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs). The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns). i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays? Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings. how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread 1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled yeah i know that but that build that this fool is talking about when the zerg has 10 roaches and the terran only has 4 marines simply doesnt exist which would explain why in the hundreds of games ive played against zerg no one has ever done it, the closest ive seen off a two base zerg with a roach push is 5 or six roaches when i have 8 marines and a hellion and medivac and a banshee on the way and that was from cellawerra. ive never had a two base zerg push me with roaches early to to an extent that i couldnt deal with it with what i had
Well, it's definitely not 10 roaches vs 4 marines, but this:
9 overlord
15 hatch
16 pool
16 gas
17 overlord
18 queen
20 queen
22 overlord
22 warren
24 overlord+10 roaches as larvae allow
Should finish around the 6:15 mark. By the timing of your Shakuras game against eve and that of your Metalopolis game against Xog, you should have 1 hellion, 6 marines and 1 medivac at that stage. There's still the slow travel time of roaches to account for, and in fact you're likely to hit as they're out in the middle of the map. It doesn't seem to have any glaring weakness to your build, as the queens are there well before your hellion starts poking around and the total drone count doesn't rise over 20, so a simple ramp-block with queens while keeping 17 drones on the main mineral line should work; it's only a matter of seconds before the first few roaches hatch anyway.
In short... this or something similar (the 16 pool after hatch might not be too safe) might be a correct transitional reply from a FE. Do you have a practice partner that can test it?
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For what it's worth, I am a Gold league T player, and I've been having a lot of trouble against FE. I was getting really frustrated, because I lost almost every time in vZ when my opponent would FE, but this build seems very effective against it. I tried the variation that you did with the drop harass into banshee harass, then into thor/marine push, and it worked beautifully, although the game did drag on for quite some time, as I couldn't find a good timing to kill him outright, it really just sort of turned in to me running around the map and killing expos and dropping a few units here and there to soften him up until I had the perfect moment to attack. None the less, I really like the build, and I definitely want more practice with it. I watched your replays and simply emulated what I saw in a couple league matches (luckily got paired with Z every time) and won, but I can tell that I made some mistakes here and there that should be easy to solve with a little practice and deliberation.
Also, the idea you mentioned about forcing Zerg to build anything but drones was indeed helpful for me as a new player. The extent of my RTS experience is WC3, and that game was certainly less econ based than SC is, so its an idea that is very alien to me as a WC3 player, as I usually focus on games in terms of how battles turn out and what counters what, the idea of economy never really crosses my mind, until now at least. (run-on sentence, I apologize.)
This strategy really changed the way I look at TvZ (and really any match-up, in terms of the idea of how key economy is.) To me this strategy seems very good, but then again, I am a lowly Gold noob, so I'm certainly in no way qualified to judge how good the build is. However, it works for me at the level of play in which I compete, and I think that is what matters.
I'm sort of of rambling right now, I'm sorry. I just wanted to thank you, OP, for this strategy, it hasn't just given me a good build order to work with, but has helped my general SC mindset.
Sorry about the novel. Thanks again, OP.
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On October 28 2010 11:21 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 04:04 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 03:21 jHERO wrote:On October 28 2010 03:07 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 02:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 28 2010 02:06 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example. watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays. On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs). The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns). i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays? Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings. how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread 1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled yeah i know that but that build that this fool is talking about when the zerg has 10 roaches and the terran only has 4 marines simply doesnt exist which would explain why in the hundreds of games ive played against zerg no one has ever done it, the closest ive seen off a two base zerg with a roach push is 5 or six roaches when i have 8 marines and a hellion and medivac and a banshee on the way and that was from cellawerra. ive never had a two base zerg push me with roaches early to to an extent that i couldnt deal with it with what i had Well, it's definitely not 10 roaches vs 4 marines, but this: 9 overlord 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas 17 overlord 18 queen 20 queen 22 overlord 22 warren 24 overlord+10 roaches as larvae allow Should finish around the 6:15 mark. By the timing of your Shakuras game against eve and that of your Metalopolis game against Xog, you should have 1 hellion, 6 marines and 1 medivac at that stage. There's still the slow travel time of roaches to account for, and in fact you're likely to hit as they're out in the middle of the map. It doesn't seem to have any glaring weakness to your build, as the queens are there well before your hellion starts poking around and the total drone count doesn't rise over 20, so a simple ramp-block with queens while keeping 17 drones on the main mineral line should work; it's only a matter of seconds before the first few roaches hatch anyway. In short... this or something similar (the 16 pool after hatch might not be too safe) might be a correct transitional reply from a FE. Do you have a practice partner that can test it?
like i said the build isnt designed to kill him or do major damage early on its only designed to exploit weakness in the zergs defense and force him to have actual units rather than than just a few spine crawlers and queens, spines can only be in one place and queens drop ridiculously fast to 6 marines and a medivac never mind the hellion i imagine there might be some weaknesses to this build and id love for people to show them but like i said i rarely lose to zergs and good scouting seems to be all i need to combat anything they throw at me
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On October 28 2010 14:57 Wrathgarr wrote:
For what it's worth, I am a Gold league T player, and I've been having a lot of trouble against FE. I was getting really frustrated, because I lost almost every time in vZ when my opponent would FE, but this build seems very effective against it. I tried the variation that you did with the drop harass into banshee harass, then into thor/marine push, and it worked beautifully, although the game did drag on for quite some time, as I couldn't find a good timing to kill him outright, it really just sort of turned in to me running around the map and killing expos and dropping a few units here and there to soften him up until I had the perfect moment to attack. None the less, I really like the build, and I definitely want more practice with it. I watched your replays and simply emulated what I saw in a couple league matches (luckily got paired with Z every time) and won, but I can tell that I made some mistakes here and there that should be easy to solve with a little practice and deliberation.
Also, the idea you mentioned about forcing Zerg to build anything but drones was indeed helpful for me as a new player. The extent of my RTS experience is WC3, and that game was certainly less econ based than SC is, so its an idea that is very alien to me as a WC3 player, as I usually focus on games in terms of how battles turn out and what counters what, the idea of economy never really crosses my mind, until now at least. (run-on sentence, I apologize.)
This strategy really changed the way I look at TvZ (and really any match-up, in terms of the idea of how key economy is.) To me this strategy seems very good, but then again, I am a lowly Gold noob, so I'm certainly in no way qualified to judge how good the build is. However, it works for me at the level of play in which I compete, and I think that is what matters.
I'm sort of of rambling right now, I'm sorry. I just wanted to thank you, OP, for this strategy, it hasn't just given me a good build order to work with, but has helped my general SC mindset.
Sorry about the novel. Thanks again, OP.
Nice im happy that at least someone is benefiting. theres alot of downloads on these replays and not much feedback
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On October 28 2010 17:45 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:21 Meff wrote:On October 28 2010 04:04 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 03:21 jHERO wrote:On October 28 2010 03:07 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 02:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 28 2010 02:06 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 ChickenLips wrote:On October 27 2010 23:54 Pookie Monster wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line). This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example. watch this replay of Tarson vs DIMAGA http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/38740Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays. On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote:
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches. Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs). The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns). i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays? Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings. how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread 1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled yeah i know that but that build that this fool is talking about when the zerg has 10 roaches and the terran only has 4 marines simply doesnt exist which would explain why in the hundreds of games ive played against zerg no one has ever done it, the closest ive seen off a two base zerg with a roach push is 5 or six roaches when i have 8 marines and a hellion and medivac and a banshee on the way and that was from cellawerra. ive never had a two base zerg push me with roaches early to to an extent that i couldnt deal with it with what i had Well, it's definitely not 10 roaches vs 4 marines, but this: 9 overlord 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas 17 overlord 18 queen 20 queen 22 overlord 22 warren 24 overlord+10 roaches as larvae allow Should finish around the 6:15 mark. By the timing of your Shakuras game against eve and that of your Metalopolis game against Xog, you should have 1 hellion, 6 marines and 1 medivac at that stage. There's still the slow travel time of roaches to account for, and in fact you're likely to hit as they're out in the middle of the map. It doesn't seem to have any glaring weakness to your build, as the queens are there well before your hellion starts poking around and the total drone count doesn't rise over 20, so a simple ramp-block with queens while keeping 17 drones on the main mineral line should work; it's only a matter of seconds before the first few roaches hatch anyway. In short... this or something similar (the 16 pool after hatch might not be too safe) might be a correct transitional reply from a FE. Do you have a practice partner that can test it? like i said the build isnt designed to kill him or do major damage early on its only designed to exploit weakness in the zergs defense and force him to have actual units rather than than just a few spine crawlers and queens, spines can only be in one place and queens drop ridiculously fast to 6 marines and a medivac never mind the hellion i imagine there might be some weaknesses to this build and id love for people to show them but like i said i rarely lose to zergs and good scouting seems to be all i need to combat anything they throw at me
Well, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm exhibiting a build that should, at least in theory, expose a weakness in your proposed build. I don't have a T practice partner to test the two out, nor we play on the same server, so I'm just proposing this as an hypothesis. Make what you will out of it.
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great build but you really should add more factories.
1 factory for your main and 2 factories per expand. This should allow you to spend all your gaz (with tanks for example).
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I think the key in the future will be lots of bio pressure with slower tech. We can see this in the GSL. The time of the 1-1-1 build may very well be coming to a close. You really need to get a ridiculous harass off to win with those.
As for techniques to counter a Zerg FE, I've posted a build with a 20 CS +1 attack marine push outlined at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 that often just kills over expanding zergs outright. It is basically FE->5 Rax->Mid game tech.
It is adapted for ravens but I think you can get tanks, drop, thors etc that you see in the KME #2 replay pack.
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no, not talking to pookie. I was talking about the other 4 to 5 builds that were posted without replays.
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On October 28 2010 17:47 Pookie Monster wrote:
theres alot of downloads on these replays and not much feedback
Well, I downloaded them and don't currently have time to watch them, but I will do that when I get home. BTW, I'm another Gold Terran player frustrated with 14 pool FE. 
These days I almost exclusively get matched against Zerg, and lose almost every 1v1 game I play.
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watching the game vs eve on shakuras.. your build doesn't really achieve anything. you get a later than usual expansion while he easily holds off your harassment and gets to make a ton of drones. the only reason he lost is because he was terrible with his macro (hitting 1200 on 2 bases, queens building up so much energy) so he didn't have what he should have had, which is a third base and a lot more units. and his control of the few units he did have was terrible.. watch the battle at 20 minutes in ughhh
also he seemed set on not moving out of his side of the map even though he could've cleanly denied your third base when you lifted it over.
i don't think these replays give much merit to this build
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On October 28 2010 23:07 dreamend wrote:
watching the game vs eve on shakuras.. your build doesn't really achieve anything. you get a later than usual expansion while he easily holds off your harassment and gets to make a ton of drones. the only reason he lost is because he was terrible with his macro (hitting 1200 on 2 bases, queens building up so much energy) so he didn't have what he should have had, which is a third base and a lot more units. and his control of the few units he did have was terrible.. watch the battle at 20 minutes in ughhh
also he seemed set on not moving out of his side of the map even though he could've cleanly denied your third base when you lifted it over.
i don't think these replays give much merit to this build
this build is about averages and reliability, you CAN expo earlier vs zergs but what if zerg scouts it and does only a light saturation of his expo and instead goes roaches and banelings few people here already mention the danger of fast roaches? you have exactly nothing to defend it and ive seen pros lose to such builds, this build is for laddering and as ive said it is incredibly effective vs the zerg FEs i see at high diamond play i already said im not the best player on bnet but neither are my opponents this build is a great starting point for anyone having trouble in general laddering vs zergs up to and including high diamond, NOT against cellawerra fruit dealer and Idra :o)
what are you ranked anyway?
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On October 28 2010 22:06 k4ne wrote:
great build but you really should add more factories.
1 factory for your main and 2 factories per expand. This should allow you to spend all your gaz (with tanks for example).
i like to make banshees and ravens to
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On October 28 2010 22:22 SCling wrote:
no, not talking to pookie. I was talking about the other 4 to 5 builds that were posted without replays.
good ole theory crafting
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added more reps feedback would be nice
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Hey Pookie Monster!
As a Platinum player I've been thinking alot of my TvZ since patch 1.1.2 went live, and mainly doing custom games trying to figure out how to punish zerg's bold expansion habits.
Since reading your thread and watching the replays, I've been able to incorporate this build into my game and it has helped me tremendously. I've since been promoted to around 1100 Diamond (in about 4 days playing sparingly), and have been consistently beating zerg players around 1500 rating.
So thanks alot for the time you put into this you have definitely helped me a great deal in finding a solid foundation for TvZ! cheers mate
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On October 31 2010 10:25 Matalon wrote:
Hey Pookie Monster!
As a Platinum player I've been thinking alot of my TvZ since patch 1.1.2 went live, and mainly doing custom games trying to figure out how to punish zerg's bold expansion habits.
Since reading your thread and watching the replays, I've been able to incorporate this build into my game and it has helped me tremendously. I've since been promoted to around 1100 Diamond (in about 4 days playing sparingly), and have been consistently beating zerg players around 1500 rating.
So thanks alot for the time you put into this you have definitely helped me a great deal in finding a solid foundation for TvZ! cheers mate
Nice i still dont see any real flaws to the build i only lose if i make mechanical mistakes like getting supply blocked or sacking the drop or having my army bunched up against banelings or just plain out of position these can always be addressed with good micro
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do you have games of you losing with this strat? I'd like to see those if possible, thanks! I like this build btw 
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Hey Pookie, just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I haven't got the build down completely smooth yet, but when I have executed it well enough it just completely dominates (FYI I'm Platinum).
Last night I played an epic game on Metalopolis where the Zerg player was just throwing shitloads of Roaches and Banelings at me, but since I had my expansion and Factories up nice and quick I was able to build enough Thors/marines to repel him each time. Eventually he just massed like half a screen of Roaches to try counter my Thors, but I had so many with upgrades I just crushed him and just walked around the map cleaning up all his bases.
I want to get the build order down perfectly and I still need to get a feel for when to push out. I tend to wait till he throws something at me and then I counter-attack.
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On November 02 2010 16:54 Vorlik wrote:do you have games of you losing with this strat? I'd like to see those if possible, thanks! I like this build btw
yeah i do lose to GOOD zergs i just watch the replay and move on though i dont really save them especially when its obvious why i lost, like sack my drop, no scvs to repair thors, lose all marines to a few banelings cause i didnt do even the slightest micro, stuff like that, the next time i lose ill post it but this isnt suppose to be a "what did i do wrong" thread haha
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EPT
