Im a Masters terran that uses this opening against zerg to pretty good effect, it opts for a slighter later expansion in favor of harrassing and scouting the zerg. here are the stats on my two accounts.
For my build you should go standard 10 supply but make gas before rax to get a fast factory. use your depot building scv to scout and make sure hes actually doing a FE build. You should be continually pumping marines, as soon as factory is up you make starport and medivac, you should make a helllion to harass/scout and clear xelnaga towers, and hopefully get him to make alot of frontal defense and only anticipate hellion harrass. after the hellion pops out you need to make a reactor add on then switch it out with your barracks to double marine production.
Once medivac pops out you should send your 6 marines and the hellion to his main to harrass and do some damage, but most importantly GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES. overlords and queens are your targets here supply blocking him and reducing his queen number. he will likely run his drones to his natural but dont follow them just kill what u can in his main. killing queens makes banshee harass more devastating as well as the first timing push. be smart with your drop try dont lose the marines. with your starport you should make a banshee and an armory for thors as well as throwing up your own expo. the beauty of banshees is that they allow you to secure your expo with map control until he gets mutas.
use the banshee for defense if hes being aggresive with lings or roaches otherwise use it to once again clear watch towers and destroy his spreading creep tumors only use the banshee to attack his main if he handled your drop poorly and allowed you to kill his queens or severely weaken them. once your expo is up and running you should continue to pump thors, rines and banshees as gas allows then go for a quick push push once you have either 2 or 4 Thors. Depending on the situation i find the two thor push with all your marines and a banshee or two to be the most effective as many zergs have not yet put up a baneling nest and certainly will not have centrifugal hooks. they will not have many mutas out yet if any as well, this allows you to pick off the banelings before they take out your rines and scvs, spread the rines to reduce damage, if u have foxer grade marine micro or he neglects to make a baneling nest this push is absolutely devastating and ends many, MANY of my terran vs Zerg games.
if you still have your drop ship and marines you can do a two pronged attack against his main and natural as he will likely need everything he has to hold off your rines banshees and scv repaired thors and may not even notice the drop in his main. alternatively you can make an extra dropship and use your two dropships to lift your thors back to your base when they are nearly dead this is incredibly annoying if the zerg does not have mutas as it allows you to push again with 4 thors almost immediately after they are repaired at your base, if the zerg goes straight muta and tries to 3rd expand its usually GG. if he goes roaches and banelings with no mutas u can use your banshees and dropship/marines to harass and deny him third. Its your choice whether to stay bio mech switch to all mech or go bio for late game, you have all the structures neccesary to start you off on any tech path you choose. If hes going ling bling muta i like to go preignitor hellions marines and thors, throwing in tanks once i have the +2 attack upgrade for mech which allows the thors to two shot mutas. the replays will show more detail, enjoy, My apm is only about 100 so this isnt stuff that requires incredible micro and is very viable in high diamond ive beaten cellawerra and Rigid with this build two great zerg players that have live streams here on TL. GL
Legendobert is my second account Pookie is my primary one
The replays are listed in terms of quality with the top ones i feel being the better execution of the build against better players. If you want to add this strat to your TVZ arsenal the top 8 replays are must watches, the rest are if your bored and to show more proof of how just how much i win with this build. The replay at the top is there for you to get an idea of how u can transition into late game if you dont roll over the zerg with the first push although i have to say i think the reason he didnt die is because my 8 scvs werent on auto repair -_- nonetheless it allows me to show you that the push isnt an all in by any means and and if you watch the food count the zerg was never far ahead if at all after the push do to constant pressure. as always i made numerous mistakes and this further illustrates in the hands of a better player this build will be even stronger :o)
I just want to point out that even though this thread is about attacking a zerg with an expo it is just as effective if not more so against a zerg on one base here are a few replays of the build against a zerg that doesnt FE TVZ Pookie Build vs One base Zpux on LT
heres one of those dreaded roach pushes people keep raving about heh
I have a feeling the Foxer Marine Shenanigans will be oh so prevalent in the ladder for the next week or so Guess I can't be such a greedy hatch-first-no-questions-asked kinda guy anymore.
Do you have a more general build order you follow? And how do you have enough gas for the double pumping banshee and thors...? Granted I guess you are saying push out with 4 thors.. but it seems really gas heavy...
I will def give a try.. was just wondering if you had a general order for when you decided to drop down you're other factories and starports.
On October 27 2010 23:16 mierin wrote: I have a feeling the Foxer Marine Shenanigans will be oh so prevalent in the ladder for the next week or so Guess I can't be such a greedy hatch-first-no-questions-asked kinda guy anymore.
yeah i started doing BETTER against zerg after the patch because i never used the reaper build and zergs now think they can FE and make no units and be just fine with a spine crawler and thier nat, dont think its supposed to be that way
On October 27 2010 23:25 n0xi3 wrote: Do you have a more general build order you follow? And how do you have enough gas for the double pumping banshee and thors...? Granted I guess you are saying push out with 4 thors.. but it seems really gas heavy...
I will def give a try.. was just wondering if you had a general order for when you decided to drop down you're other factories and starports.
you can watch just one rep if u want to get an idea but since once i make the medivac i make my second refinery, i dont actually get the second fac until my expo is up, and i get double gas geysers at my expo ASAP, ur mules are more than enough to get you minerals, your drops reveal what the zerg is doing as he cant really hide anything so ur free to mule away
Funny you mention this because I have just been PM'ing iEchoic about a similar strat that I do.
I dont go gas first (something i'm now going to try) but i will get a barracks x2 depot wall in to prevent scout lings while CONSTANTLY building marines. I get a factory asap followed by armory. During this time it allows me to build an inbase CC (to lift off to my main during my first push) while building armory i get a single hellion as a decoy hoping to get the zerg to over compensate for hellions. while getting a starport im usually able to get my first thor pumping. After starport i quickly get one medivac and move out w/ 10 or so marines 1 medivac and a thor timing push. On maps w/ ledges i can do thor drops but if you even want to go right up front there are usually no more then two spine crawlers and with medivac micro you can lift up the thor or weak marines and re drop them during a battle to get the agro off of them from the roach/ling infestation.
EVEN IF YOU DO lose that first push you have forced them to stop droning, weakened their timing push, and evened things out for the mid game. Now you have an expo and can focus on more of a tank/1-2 thors/MMM ball.
Come mid game i find it VERY important to keep your tanks split into two control groups. I use half my tanks in control group 3, and half in control group 4. When the battle comes make sure to use those control groups to individually focus fire on BLings. Even if you get 1/3 of the banelings its better then your whole bio army getting steam rolled. And of course bring your bio to the back or the side so you can split them or move them to the back of your army until blings are gone.
On October 27 2010 23:16 mierin wrote: I have a feeling the Foxer Marine Shenanigans will be oh so prevalent in the ladder for the next week or so Guess I can't be such a greedy hatch-first-no-questions-asked kinda guy anymore.
You know it! I always thought mass marine was such a newbish thing but you know what? With proper micro, they're good against just about EVERY zerg unit w/ medivac support until T3. Throw in late marauders for extra kick vs roach and to tank banelings.
On October 27 2010 23:40 ViPer[RuSh] wrote: My style:
10 sup. 12 rax 13 gas 17 fact 18 fact 1 fact with reactor 1 fact with techlab First harass with 4/5 helions.
Depending on damage and zerg build...or thor/marine/helion or another helion harass, with blue flames this time.
Split the second harass in 2 groups of 4/5. 1 group harasses minline of exp, second in main.
eh i find better zergs get roaches out early which make double hellion kinda dated, the money spot is the main which is generally only guarded by a single queen getting that fast medivac puts alot of pressure on the zerg until he gets mutas, IF he gets mutas
The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill a lot of roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line), and even then it still takes a banshee 2 minutes to kill 13 roaches or so.
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
I guess my "normal" style i kinda similar. I usually go rax - fac - starport. But i do contiuous hellions and marines giving me 3 hellions and 8 marines when medevac is out.
I push him with my first hellion and ~~ 5 marines just to poke, and force some lings/sunkens
Then rally everything to outside his base and elevator all my stuff up there if i feel it will pay off
Then banshees and in the end i do either heavy MMM or mech (whichever seems appropriate).
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
You do need an extra hatchery for the production, and you do need a better economy because Zerg units aren't that great, but you sure as hell don't need TWICE as many bases.
And MULEs? For fuck's sake, they're worth 4.5 workers. You think that's equal to a whole friggin expansion?
On October 28 2010 00:16 PackofHighly wrote: That first replay has some potential. Have you practiced it a lot against different Zergs and their various FE transitions?
Especially if the second drop wasn't sacked, you are looking really good.
I'm kinda concerned how this would hold up against banelings.
yes i have its strongest against muta transitions but i do well vs all and yeah i just want to point out that im not the best player and everyone of those replays could be better in the hands of a more capable terran or someone with just more apm, and i noticed most zergs dont actually get banelings until much more later then when i push they rather save thier gas for roaches or muta
Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this.
On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote: Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this.
I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha
On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote: Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this.
I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha
Well the point is, you won't RELY on doing ONLY this. But, this is 3rax FAST, SHIELD push... that means you will push alot earlier because stim takes alot of time to research, after u do this EARLY EARLY push with shells and shield, you will have to make ur expo FAST, get a fact/starport... OR just make more rax and continue with bio... depending on his unit combo..
My point is, this push will serve to replace hellion harass with a bio harass early on, allowing you to come even into midgame OR in best case scenario, you will actually KILL his natural with the first push, because he is unaware that u are going 3rax to early on him... this depends on you killing his scouts and tricking him with mind games... :D
One thing I have had success with is a heavy air focus. Rush for banshees, then follow it up with viking harass (kill overlords, actually does well against mutas if you have enough) and more banshees. this forces them to get mutas or hydras. If they go mutas mass vikings actually does well if you fight smart/kite/etc. hydras die to hellions. if he build roaches, build a couple bunkers
I find the double scv bunker build with a marine in my natural causes me to slowly lose over time. I lose the hatch, but then terran keeps the pressure on using whatever transition he wants, and eventually takes a 3rd while i'll still trying to saturate my natural which i've rebuilt 2-3 times.
edit: this is when I do 14 hatch 14 pool builds. I'm going to try doing 14 pools on map with close spawns instead of always 14 hatching against terran. I feel when the terran pressures at the right times, the hatch before pool can put me in a hole.
You got to 2000 diamond without using hotkeys for production? -.-
That was pretty good. I think you need to build marauders earlier and cut down on maybe a thor since a few of the zergs opted for mass roach. You also get supply blocked at 70 almost every game. I like the build though.
On October 28 2010 01:25 diw117 wrote: You got to 2000 diamond without using hotkeys for production? -.-
That was pretty good. I think you need to build marauders earlier and cut down on maybe a thor since a few of the zergs opted for mass roach. You also get supply blocked at 70 almost every game. I like the build though.
I have to say thats something i need to work on and probably is what keeps me from being higher on the ladder is the hotkeys macro :o(
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
I'm surprised more terrans don't just open with mass bio. The majority of zerg aren't planning banelings until they have lair, which is a long way away generally. Granted, I'm only playing noob 1500 diamond level, but typically I die to surprising early pushes (hide tech, if my 1st drone sees 3 rax it won't work, a marine or two on base border to fend off overlord eavesdropping). Hidden tech is key, but easily achieved. I know a lot of people don't like to play that way but its a long way from auto-lose if he scouts it... then you just tech to medivac. The thing for Z is that if he sees you fending his borders with marines and refuse to let you see his tech, he has to get lair and get ready for banshee/medivac-drops. And then instead you roll out with a pile of stimmed bio and squish him. Spines are garbage against marauder and roach/ling is not cost effective without baneling or infestor support. This timing push kills me more than I would like to admit.
I mean, fuck denying the FE, just let him FE and then KILL IT. Far better option imo. And if he is roach pushing, like a couple people mention, you flat out win the game when his roaches get slowed/stomped at your entrance.
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
On October 28 2010 02:05 ToxNub wrote: I'm surprised more terrans don't just open with mass bio. The majority of zerg aren't planning banelings until they have lair, which is a long way away generally. Granted, I'm only playing noob 1500 diamond level, but typically I die to surprising early pushes (hide tech, if my 1st drone sees 3 rax it won't work, a marine or two on base border to fend off overlord eavesdropping). Hidden tech is key, but easily achieved. I know a lot of people don't like to play that way but its a long way from auto-lose if he scouts it... then you just tech to medivac. The thing for Z is that if he sees you fending his borders with marines and refuse to let you see his tech, he has to get lair and get ready for banshee/medivac-drops. And then instead you roll out with a pile of stimmed bio and squish him. Spines are garbage against marauder and roach/ling is not cost effective without baneling or infestor support. This timing push kills me more than I would like to admit.
I mean, fuck denying the FE, just let him FE and then KILL IT. Far better option imo. And if he is roach pushing, like a couple people mention, you flat out win the game when his roaches get slowed/stomped at your entrance.
This is exactly what i am saying..
Don't try to delay his expansion, but muster enough forces to destroy it early on, or at least kill enough drones or force enough army to hurt his natural so much..
This is done excellently by hiding tech with 3rax shield push or just teching if scouted and then pushing.
Terrans. We must, MUST, find a new to punish early hatch. It can be done. It must be done.
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
On October 28 2010 02:05 ToxNub wrote: I'm surprised more terrans don't just open with mass bio. The majority of zerg aren't planning banelings until they have lair, which is a long way away generally. Granted, I'm only playing noob 1500 diamond level, but typically I die to surprising early pushes (hide tech, if my 1st drone sees 3 rax it won't work, a marine or two on base border to fend off overlord eavesdropping). Hidden tech is key, but easily achieved. I know a lot of people don't like to play that way but its a long way from auto-lose if he scouts it... then you just tech to medivac. The thing for Z is that if he sees you fending his borders with marines and refuse to let you see his tech, he has to get lair and get ready for banshee/medivac-drops. And then instead you roll out with a pile of stimmed bio and squish him. Spines are garbage against marauder and roach/ling is not cost effective without baneling or infestor support. This timing push kills me more than I would like to admit.
I mean, fuck denying the FE, just let him FE and then KILL IT. Far better option imo. And if he is roach pushing, like a couple people mention, you flat out win the game when his roaches get slowed/stomped at your entrance.
Bleh. 3 rax is good if the Z doesnt scout and gets caught offguard with 50 drones. Watch IdrA vs. ajtls on Scrap Station. IdrA beat him in a straight up match and lost on LT due to a gay (hidden + faked other BO) thor drop on his cliff. Then it goes to a 3rd match and ajtls, knowing he's up against a clearly superior opponent goes for a hidden 3 rax push. IdrA is VERY VERY aware of his lack of scouting and goes for quick lair (which is standard in his ZvT BO anyways) in order to suicide an overseer. He sees a complete lack of tech or economy and then finds the hidden rax with a speedling. He manages to easily fend it off with spine crawlers and speedlings since he can make so much more stuff out of 2 hatcheries with his perfectly timed injects than the measly 3 rax of ajtls. The longer the game goes (i.e. he doesnt lose economy right when the push hits) the weaker the 1 base all in gets, allowing the 2 base eco + production to overcome the T. (ajtls even said "wow youre sick good" after the match)
Mass bio is all in against Zerg because banelings + infestors (properly controlled which almost noone manages to pull off at the moment) deal with it so well. You have a really hard time transitioning into marine tank because you start your tank production so late (while also having to keep barracks out of production due to a lack of funds) and Z has map control, basically able to whatever he wants.
My suggestion is to do something close to what FoxeR did vs FD today. Apply early pressure to force lings instead of economy and do just very straightforward and strong 2 base plays that allow for a varietyy of transitions and tech paths-
against ZERGs, this is my standard build as a 1.5k diamond terran
10 supply 11 refinery 12 rax (you delay 1 scv production with this fast refinery build)
pump 1 marine get factory right after barracks reactor on barracks
swap factory with barracks pump 2 helions to harass then another 2 helions to harass (depending on situation)
now if the map is not too big, and zerg went something like 14hatch he will have about 2 lings and queens to deal with it
this is my standard opening
usually after this i switch to thors and expand to my natural with planetary fortress, and get upgrades for vehicle weapon to 2, then max out later on
upgrade blue flame and continually harass, just run these all over the map, picking off drones or lings... now i want to say something here, if you cant pick off drones, lings are a VERY VERY good alternative to keep his food down and waste his lavas on lings
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread
1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread
1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled
yeah i know that but that build that this fool is talking about when the zerg has 10 roaches and the terran only has 4 marines simply doesnt exist which would explain why in the hundreds of games ive played against zerg no one has ever done it, the closest ive seen off a two base zerg with a roach push is 5 or six roaches when i have 8 marines and a hellion and medivac and a banshee on the way and that was from cellawerra. ive never had a two base zerg push me with roaches early to to an extent that i couldnt deal with it with what i had
On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote: Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this.
I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha
Well the point is, you won't RELY on doing ONLY this. But, this is 3rax FAST, SHIELD push... that means you will push alot earlier because stim takes alot of time to research, after u do this EARLY EARLY push with shells and shield, you will have to make ur expo FAST, get a fact/starport... OR just make more rax and continue with bio... depending on his unit combo..
My point is, this push will serve to replace hellion harass with a bio harass early on, allowing you to come even into midgame OR in best case scenario, you will actually KILL his natural with the first push, because he is unaware that u are going 3rax to early on him... this depends on you killing his scouts and tricking him with mind games... :D
Try it
Since the patch I 3 rax alot with Shield instead of Stim. Effective and faster then a stim push.
I also been doing 2 rax 1 fact.
As i can either do a marine tank push or a risky marauder hellion timing attack right before Lair tech. The latter pretty much counters all Zerg Tier 1 if the zerg just massed Roach ling which most do now. And is only weak to Muta so i expand and drop and armory.
On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote: Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this.
I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha
Well the point is, you won't RELY on doing ONLY this. But, this is 3rax FAST, SHIELD push... that means you will push alot earlier because stim takes alot of time to research, after u do this EARLY EARLY push with shells and shield, you will have to make ur expo FAST, get a fact/starport... OR just make more rax and continue with bio... depending on his unit combo..
My point is, this push will serve to replace hellion harass with a bio harass early on, allowing you to come even into midgame OR in best case scenario, you will actually KILL his natural with the first push, because he is unaware that u are going 3rax to early on him... this depends on you killing his scouts and tricking him with mind games... :D
Try it
Since the patch I 3 rax alot with Shield instead of Stim. Effective and faster then a stim push.
I also been doing 2 rax 1 fact.
As i can either do a marine tank push or a risky marauder hellion timing attack right before Lair tech. The latter pretty much counters all Zerg Tier 1 if the zerg just massed Roach ling which most do now. And is only weak to Muta so i expand and drop and armory.
I definitely agree with the stim part and I think it's something that will dawn on a lot of players when they see pros do it (TLO went shields first vs NaDa). I've done extensive unit testing with marines and there is almost NO units remaining-difference between marines with stim and marines with combat shields. However, the CS-marines have a lot more health at the end of the battle and how often have we seen players over-stim and wind up with a force of 15 HP marines that get picked apart by a few lings? Oh yeah, CS is 30 seconds faster than stim (110 vs 140)
On October 28 2010 00:55 MasterFischer wrote: Try a 3rax shield, shells push with stim on the way after...
1 reactor 2 tech labs, go 15 secs before shield research finishes... try to kill lings scouting ur 3 rax.. and hide it for aslong as u can... and rush to the base... he will have little spines and banelings... micro around, kill his queen and drones and the expo.. or just make him make army..
after that you expand... and add a factory and a starport... get medievac, more marauders and marines with5 rax... get armory and thor.. push with hellions thor and marine/marauder and some medievac
Collect win :D
Theory:
If your first bio push with shields shells and good mix of mara and marines dont outright kill him or set him back... you have scared him into overproduction of banelings and other stuff....
this allows u to expo and mech up with hellions and/or tanks. You will have probaly set him back on drone count and eco.. regardless... for punishing his fast hatch with ur very fast 3rax shield push..
guys try it... i dont have replays uploaded... but im 2055 Diamond T.. and i win alot TvZ with this.
I used to do this i dunno muta baneling makes this feel so flimsy i stopped doing it i just love thors haha
Well the point is, you won't RELY on doing ONLY this. But, this is 3rax FAST, SHIELD push... that means you will push alot earlier because stim takes alot of time to research, after u do this EARLY EARLY push with shells and shield, you will have to make ur expo FAST, get a fact/starport... OR just make more rax and continue with bio... depending on his unit combo..
My point is, this push will serve to replace hellion harass with a bio harass early on, allowing you to come even into midgame OR in best case scenario, you will actually KILL his natural with the first push, because he is unaware that u are going 3rax to early on him... this depends on you killing his scouts and tricking him with mind games... :D
Try it
Since the patch I 3 rax alot with Shield instead of Stim. Effective and faster then a stim push.
I also been doing 2 rax 1 fact.
As i can either do a marine tank push or a risky marauder hellion timing attack right before Lair tech. The latter pretty much counters all Zerg Tier 1 if the zerg just massed Roach ling which most do now. And is only weak to Muta so i expand and drop and armory.
I definitely agree with the stim part and I think it's something that will dawn on a lot of players when they see pros do it (TLO went shields first vs NaDa). I've done extensive unit testing with marines and there is almost NO units remaining-difference between marines with stim and marines with combat shields. However, the CS-marines have a lot more health at the end of the battle and how often have we seen players over-stim and wind up with a force of 15 HP marines that get picked apart by a few lings? Oh yeah, CS is 30 seconds faster than stim (110 vs 140)
alot of people get shield before stim even against protoss such as with the ghost marine build
On October 28 2010 07:58 SCling wrote: get replays up plz, anyone can theorize about a strat, but replays would mean much more, especially since every strat seems to come from 2k terrans.
are you talking to me? cause i put replays in the topic starter
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread
1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled
yeah i know that but that build that this fool is talking about when the zerg has 10 roaches and the terran only has 4 marines simply doesnt exist which would explain why in the hundreds of games ive played against zerg no one has ever done it, the closest ive seen off a two base zerg with a roach push is 5 or six roaches when i have 8 marines and a hellion and medivac and a banshee on the way and that was from cellawerra. ive never had a two base zerg push me with roaches early to to an extent that i couldnt deal with it with what i had
Well, it's definitely not 10 roaches vs 4 marines, but this: 9 overlord 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas 17 overlord 18 queen 20 queen 22 overlord 22 warren 24 overlord+10 roaches as larvae allow
Should finish around the 6:15 mark. By the timing of your Shakuras game against eve and that of your Metalopolis game against Xog, you should have 1 hellion, 6 marines and 1 medivac at that stage. There's still the slow travel time of roaches to account for, and in fact you're likely to hit as they're out in the middle of the map. It doesn't seem to have any glaring weakness to your build, as the queens are there well before your hellion starts poking around and the total drone count doesn't rise over 20, so a simple ramp-block with queens while keeping 17 drones on the main mineral line should work; it's only a matter of seconds before the first few roaches hatch anyway.
In short... this or something similar (the 16 pool after hatch might not be too safe) might be a correct transitional reply from a FE. Do you have a practice partner that can test it?
For what it's worth, I am a Gold league T player, and I've been having a lot of trouble against FE. I was getting really frustrated, because I lost almost every time in vZ when my opponent would FE, but this build seems very effective against it. I tried the variation that you did with the drop harass into banshee harass, then into thor/marine push, and it worked beautifully, although the game did drag on for quite some time, as I couldn't find a good timing to kill him outright, it really just sort of turned in to me running around the map and killing expos and dropping a few units here and there to soften him up until I had the perfect moment to attack. None the less, I really like the build, and I definitely want more practice with it. I watched your replays and simply emulated what I saw in a couple league matches (luckily got paired with Z every time) and won, but I can tell that I made some mistakes here and there that should be easy to solve with a little practice and deliberation.
Also, the idea you mentioned about forcing Zerg to build anything but drones was indeed helpful for me as a new player. The extent of my RTS experience is WC3, and that game was certainly less econ based than SC is, so its an idea that is very alien to me as a WC3 player, as I usually focus on games in terms of how battles turn out and what counters what, the idea of economy never really crosses my mind, until now at least. (run-on sentence, I apologize.)
This strategy really changed the way I look at TvZ (and really any match-up, in terms of the idea of how key economy is.) To me this strategy seems very good, but then again, I am a lowly Gold noob, so I'm certainly in no way qualified to judge how good the build is. However, it works for me at the level of play in which I compete, and I think that is what matters.
I'm sort of of rambling right now, I'm sorry. I just wanted to thank you, OP, for this strategy, it hasn't just given me a good build order to work with, but has helped my general SC mindset.
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread
1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled
yeah i know that but that build that this fool is talking about when the zerg has 10 roaches and the terran only has 4 marines simply doesnt exist which would explain why in the hundreds of games ive played against zerg no one has ever done it, the closest ive seen off a two base zerg with a roach push is 5 or six roaches when i have 8 marines and a hellion and medivac and a banshee on the way and that was from cellawerra. ive never had a two base zerg push me with roaches early to to an extent that i couldnt deal with it with what i had
Well, it's definitely not 10 roaches vs 4 marines, but this: 9 overlord 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas 17 overlord 18 queen 20 queen 22 overlord 22 warren 24 overlord+10 roaches as larvae allow
Should finish around the 6:15 mark. By the timing of your Shakuras game against eve and that of your Metalopolis game against Xog, you should have 1 hellion, 6 marines and 1 medivac at that stage. There's still the slow travel time of roaches to account for, and in fact you're likely to hit as they're out in the middle of the map. It doesn't seem to have any glaring weakness to your build, as the queens are there well before your hellion starts poking around and the total drone count doesn't rise over 20, so a simple ramp-block with queens while keeping 17 drones on the main mineral line should work; it's only a matter of seconds before the first few roaches hatch anyway.
In short... this or something similar (the 16 pool after hatch might not be too safe) might be a correct transitional reply from a FE. Do you have a practice partner that can test it?
like i said the build isnt designed to kill him or do major damage early on its only designed to exploit weakness in the zergs defense and force him to have actual units rather than than just a few spine crawlers and queens, spines can only be in one place and queens drop ridiculously fast to 6 marines and a medivac never mind the hellion i imagine there might be some weaknesses to this build and id love for people to show them but like i said i rarely lose to zergs and good scouting seems to be all i need to combat anything they throw at me
On October 28 2010 14:57 Wrathgarr wrote: For what it's worth, I am a Gold league T player, and I've been having a lot of trouble against FE. I was getting really frustrated, because I lost almost every time in vZ when my opponent would FE, but this build seems very effective against it. I tried the variation that you did with the drop harass into banshee harass, then into thor/marine push, and it worked beautifully, although the game did drag on for quite some time, as I couldn't find a good timing to kill him outright, it really just sort of turned in to me running around the map and killing expos and dropping a few units here and there to soften him up until I had the perfect moment to attack. None the less, I really like the build, and I definitely want more practice with it. I watched your replays and simply emulated what I saw in a couple league matches (luckily got paired with Z every time) and won, but I can tell that I made some mistakes here and there that should be easy to solve with a little practice and deliberation.
Also, the idea you mentioned about forcing Zerg to build anything but drones was indeed helpful for me as a new player. The extent of my RTS experience is WC3, and that game was certainly less econ based than SC is, so its an idea that is very alien to me as a WC3 player, as I usually focus on games in terms of how battles turn out and what counters what, the idea of economy never really crosses my mind, until now at least. (run-on sentence, I apologize.)
This strategy really changed the way I look at TvZ (and really any match-up, in terms of the idea of how key economy is.) To me this strategy seems very good, but then again, I am a lowly Gold noob, so I'm certainly in no way qualified to judge how good the build is. However, it works for me at the level of play in which I compete, and I think that is what matters.
I'm sort of of rambling right now, I'm sorry. I just wanted to thank you, OP, for this strategy, it hasn't just given me a good build order to work with, but has helped my general SC mindset.
Sorry about the novel. Thanks again, OP.
Nice im happy that at least someone is benefiting. theres alot of downloads on these replays and not much feedback
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
This BO is very nice for TvZ. It has absotely nothing to do with the general nature of a 14 hatch. The problem is (and this remains true at 2k rating in US) that if Zergs get 2 hatches very early they want DRONNNNESSSSSS for saturation to get that imba economy we all love.
HOWEVER this build doesn't punish Zergs that went for a FE. The only way to punish a FE is to do damage while it causes a lull in Zerg army count. (i.e up to the the point it finishes) after that, the FE actually benefits the Zerg more than if he had went a 21 food expand or similiar. I'm not even gonna consider 1 base play because that is just crap for Z.
This BO youre talking about is also a BO loss to a roach all in off 16-20 drones. If Zerg scouts your fast factory build he might decide to just kill you since roach bust do so well even against normal 1-1-1, and you really have NOTHING to kill roaches effectively until you get a banshee which will occur long after roaches killed your entire eco (and he has spores in his min line).
This is WRONG you have a hellion seven marines and a medivac if he FEs and wants to go roaches he wont have ling speed so i will have map control with my hellion and see the roaches meandering from a mile away just throw up bunker and ur fine trust me ive defended this before i like this build because its versatile if he mass up roaches early then fine means he doesnt have a alot of drones so hes not really getting the saturation from his FE like any good build this requires some scouting too u can stay in the zerg base for awhile with your scv if he FEs you know
This is WRONG. I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Dimaga goes for a very cool and economical 2 base play that has speedlings and roaches. The roaches often catch Terran off guard. In this case Tarson went for a 1-1-1 and Dimaga was able to do a lot of damage, essentially winning him the game (and Tarson even had a banshee out). Almost none of the pros play hellions in TvZ anymore since they are worthless vs defensive roach openings (no ability to kite) and have a lot of trouble vs early roach pressure plays.
On October 28 2010 00:17 HungShark wrote:
On October 27 2010 23:49 ChickenLips wrote: The point of the FE is to get a super duper nice economy in the first 5-6 minutes after that it aligns with people who openened speedling expand in terms of army production capability as both openings have 2 queens at 2 hatches.
Wrong. The point of the FE is to allow Zerg to pump out more units in a pinch. The added economy is merely a bonus. If any decent player keeps pressure on the FE, you'll notice very little to no drones on the FE because the Zerg player is pumping out units to defend. Besides, I think it's pretty well accepted that 2 Base Zerg is roughly even with 1 Base Protoss, and DEFINITELY even with 1 Base Terran (thanks to MULEs).
The point of a FE is definitely not to produce more units. o.O If that was the point Zergs would just inbase hatch since its much safer and harder to block. The reason for the FE is always the economy. If Zerg has to make units in order to defend this has nothing to do with the intention of a FE, the pressure just forces defense instead of drones. If you let a FE alone he will make exactly 2 lings and 80 drones since SC2 is an economy focused game. (watch NesTea vs NEXGenius on Xelnaga Caverns).
i block my front you make it seem like the roaches can walk right into my base, if i see roaches i make bunker, i realize roach rushes are common i wouldnt advertise this build if i felt it would autolose vs another build, have u even watched the replays?
Of course roaches can't walk straight into your base. However all they need to do for that is kill a supply depot. So you have 10 roaches on your ramp + on the low ground and they all start firing at your supply depot with their new range 4. Even if you have the 3 SCVs that fit in the space by the rax, they cannot outrepair the roach DPS. So now you have an open entrance with AT MOST one roach killed. He just proceeds to walk by your bunker with 4 marines and kills your production / economy / supply depots / add ons while happily making a shitton of drones at his base or sending 28 speedlings per inject to your base since the wall is open. 1-1-1 is a hardcore tech opening and I think you can only afford to do it if the Z focuses very heavily on economy or tech but not on roaches + speedlings.
how the hell does he have ten roaches!!! when i only have 4 marines? my build is for when you scout an expansion not when hes on one base, dude i think your your talking about a one base zerg you dont belong in this thread
1 base zerg is automatic cheese, and u need to react fast not to get rolled
yeah i know that but that build that this fool is talking about when the zerg has 10 roaches and the terran only has 4 marines simply doesnt exist which would explain why in the hundreds of games ive played against zerg no one has ever done it, the closest ive seen off a two base zerg with a roach push is 5 or six roaches when i have 8 marines and a hellion and medivac and a banshee on the way and that was from cellawerra. ive never had a two base zerg push me with roaches early to to an extent that i couldnt deal with it with what i had
Well, it's definitely not 10 roaches vs 4 marines, but this: 9 overlord 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas 17 overlord 18 queen 20 queen 22 overlord 22 warren 24 overlord+10 roaches as larvae allow
Should finish around the 6:15 mark. By the timing of your Shakuras game against eve and that of your Metalopolis game against Xog, you should have 1 hellion, 6 marines and 1 medivac at that stage. There's still the slow travel time of roaches to account for, and in fact you're likely to hit as they're out in the middle of the map. It doesn't seem to have any glaring weakness to your build, as the queens are there well before your hellion starts poking around and the total drone count doesn't rise over 20, so a simple ramp-block with queens while keeping 17 drones on the main mineral line should work; it's only a matter of seconds before the first few roaches hatch anyway.
In short... this or something similar (the 16 pool after hatch might not be too safe) might be a correct transitional reply from a FE. Do you have a practice partner that can test it?
like i said the build isnt designed to kill him or do major damage early on its only designed to exploit weakness in the zergs defense and force him to have actual units rather than than just a few spine crawlers and queens, spines can only be in one place and queens drop ridiculously fast to 6 marines and a medivac never mind the hellion i imagine there might be some weaknesses to this build and id love for people to show them but like i said i rarely lose to zergs and good scouting seems to be all i need to combat anything they throw at me
Well, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm exhibiting a build that should, at least in theory, expose a weakness in your proposed build. I don't have a T practice partner to test the two out, nor we play on the same server, so I'm just proposing this as an hypothesis. Make what you will out of it.
great build but you really should add more factories. 1 factory for your main and 2 factories per expand. This should allow you to spend all your gaz (with tanks for example).
I think the key in the future will be lots of bio pressure with slower tech. We can see this in the GSL. The time of the 1-1-1 build may very well be coming to a close. You really need to get a ridiculous harass off to win with those.
As for techniques to counter a Zerg FE, I've posted a build with a 20 CS +1 attack marine push outlined at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 that often just kills over expanding zergs outright. It is basically FE->5 Rax->Mid game tech.
It is adapted for ravens but I think you can get tanks, drop, thors etc that you see in the KME #2 replay pack.
On October 28 2010 17:47 Pookie Monster wrote: theres alot of downloads on these replays and not much feedback
Well, I downloaded them and don't currently have time to watch them, but I will do that when I get home. BTW, I'm another Gold Terran player frustrated with 14 pool FE.
These days I almost exclusively get matched against Zerg, and lose almost every 1v1 game I play.
watching the game vs eve on shakuras.. your build doesn't really achieve anything. you get a later than usual expansion while he easily holds off your harassment and gets to make a ton of drones. the only reason he lost is because he was terrible with his macro (hitting 1200 on 2 bases, queens building up so much energy) so he didn't have what he should have had, which is a third base and a lot more units. and his control of the few units he did have was terrible.. watch the battle at 20 minutes in ughhh
also he seemed set on not moving out of his side of the map even though he could've cleanly denied your third base when you lifted it over.
i don't think these replays give much merit to this build
On October 28 2010 23:07 dreamend wrote: watching the game vs eve on shakuras.. your build doesn't really achieve anything. you get a later than usual expansion while he easily holds off your harassment and gets to make a ton of drones. the only reason he lost is because he was terrible with his macro (hitting 1200 on 2 bases, queens building up so much energy) so he didn't have what he should have had, which is a third base and a lot more units. and his control of the few units he did have was terrible.. watch the battle at 20 minutes in ughhh
also he seemed set on not moving out of his side of the map even though he could've cleanly denied your third base when you lifted it over.
i don't think these replays give much merit to this build
this build is about averages and reliability, you CAN expo earlier vs zergs but what if zerg scouts it and does only a light saturation of his expo and instead goes roaches and banelings few people here already mention the danger of fast roaches? you have exactly nothing to defend it and ive seen pros lose to such builds, this build is for laddering and as ive said it is incredibly effective vs the zerg FEs i see at high diamond play i already said im not the best player on bnet but neither are my opponents this build is a great starting point for anyone having trouble in general laddering vs zergs up to and including high diamond, NOT against cellawerra fruit dealer and Idra :o) what are you ranked anyway?
On October 28 2010 22:06 k4ne wrote: great build but you really should add more factories. 1 factory for your main and 2 factories per expand. This should allow you to spend all your gaz (with tanks for example).
Hey Pookie Monster! As a Platinum player I've been thinking alot of my TvZ since patch 1.1.2 went live, and mainly doing custom games trying to figure out how to punish zerg's bold expansion habits.
Since reading your thread and watching the replays, I've been able to incorporate this build into my game and it has helped me tremendously. I've since been promoted to around 1100 Diamond (in about 4 days playing sparingly), and have been consistently beating zerg players around 1500 rating.
So thanks alot for the time you put into this you have definitely helped me a great deal in finding a solid foundation for TvZ! cheers mate
On October 31 2010 10:25 Matalon wrote: Hey Pookie Monster! As a Platinum player I've been thinking alot of my TvZ since patch 1.1.2 went live, and mainly doing custom games trying to figure out how to punish zerg's bold expansion habits.
Since reading your thread and watching the replays, I've been able to incorporate this build into my game and it has helped me tremendously. I've since been promoted to around 1100 Diamond (in about 4 days playing sparingly), and have been consistently beating zerg players around 1500 rating.
So thanks alot for the time you put into this you have definitely helped me a great deal in finding a solid foundation for TvZ! cheers mate
Nice i still dont see any real flaws to the build i only lose if i make mechanical mistakes like getting supply blocked or sacking the drop or having my army bunched up against banelings or just plain out of position these can always be addressed with good micro
Hey Pookie, just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I haven't got the build down completely smooth yet, but when I have executed it well enough it just completely dominates (FYI I'm Platinum).
Last night I played an epic game on Metalopolis where the Zerg player was just throwing shitloads of Roaches and Banelings at me, but since I had my expansion and Factories up nice and quick I was able to build enough Thors/marines to repel him each time. Eventually he just massed like half a screen of Roaches to try counter my Thors, but I had so many with upgrades I just crushed him and just walked around the map cleaning up all his bases.
I want to get the build order down perfectly and I still need to get a feel for when to push out. I tend to wait till he throws something at me and then I counter-attack.
On November 02 2010 16:54 Vorlik wrote: do you have games of you losing with this strat? I'd like to see those if possible, thanks! I like this build btw
yeah i do lose to GOOD zergs i just watch the replay and move on though i dont really save them especially when its obvious why i lost, like sack my drop, no scvs to repair thors, lose all marines to a few banelings cause i didnt do even the slightest micro, stuff like that, the next time i lose ill post it but this isnt suppose to be a "what did i do wrong" thread haha
One thing I forgot to mention is that you never get stim or shield for marine because your build order requires that reactor swap from fact to rax. Do you think making a tech lab on the rax then getting stim and then swapping both add-ons would be better? you could get out your first thor faster(because you already have the tech lab from the rax on it-just need armory built quicker there too), but it hurts that early marine medvac drop you like to do, but you have stim. Thoughts?
Theres simply no time to get those upgrades if i want to do a fast push after my expo is up and running, and i just played a few games today against some good zergs "Just" being one of them wheres its clear how useful having a high marine count is as well as those early thors and banshees, they allow you to do two prong attacks, which is pretty devastating ive been thinking about how i can bolster my marines with upgrades but every way ive seen of doing it seems to hurt my build too much id love to see a replay if someone can make it work
This replay is a great replay for a variation of the two base push i drop marines in his main while sending the bulk of my army to his front, this is against a 2400 zerg and i make quite a few mistakes not sniping spire when i had the chance then sacking marines, banshees out of position for his counterattack, not having scvs to repair thors for my first push yada yada yada, he still gets steamrolled ill post it here and with the others since i feel it improves the build legendofbert is my second account if anyone is confused TvZ marine banshee thor build with two pronged push
So I like the replays, and I've used this strat a few times on the ladder myself. (I posted in this thread a while back.) But I do have a question for you. How do you deal with a 6-pool? That's the only thing I've lost to while using this strategy, and it is quite frustrating, especially since I got 6-pooled twice in a row lolol. Since you're going gas first, your first marines are later than usual, not to mention that you can't build a bunker until much later. What do you do if you get 6-pooled in this build?
On November 03 2010 11:04 Wrathgarr wrote: So I like the replays, and I've used this strat a few times on the ladder myself. (I posted in this thread a while back.) But I do have a question for you. How do you deal with a 6-pool? That's the only thing I've lost to while using this strategy, and it is quite frustrating, especially since I got 6-pooled twice in a row lolol. Since you're going gas first, your first marines are later than usual, not to mention that you can't build a bunker until much later. What do you do if you get 6-pooled in this build?
I too use his build and for 6 pool it's all about scouting. I always scout while i'm building my first depot, so if i see his pool or only 6 drones i cancel my gas, if i was too slow to cancel i stop scv production and get a 2 depot/1 rax wall up asap, followed by a marine obviously(repair depots until marine is out). On short distance maps you have to be quick about it.
On November 03 2010 09:14 Pookie Monster wrote: This replay is a great replay for a variation of the two base push i drop marines in his main while sending the bulk of my army to his front, this is against a 2400 zerg and i make quite a few mistakes not sniping spire when i had the chance then sacking marines, banshees out of position for his counterattack, not having scvs to repair thors for my first push yada yada yada, he still gets steamrolled ill post it here and with the others since i feel it improves the build legendofbert is my second account if anyone is confused TvZ marine banshee thor build with two pronged push
Good game. But why did you make 3 factories? No way could you fund that with 2 base(your 3rd was just starting at the end). That zerg handled that 2 prong so poorly lol. I love this build though, it's grown on me. Did you come up with it? How does your tvt or tvp compare? Do you have specific builds for those too? Fill me in =D
On November 03 2010 11:04 Wrathgarr wrote: So I like the replays, and I've used this strat a few times on the ladder myself. (I posted in this thread a while back.) But I do have a question for you. How do you deal with a 6-pool? That's the only thing I've lost to while using this strategy, and it is quite frustrating, especially since I got 6-pooled twice in a row lolol. Since you're going gas first, your first marines are later than usual, not to mention that you can't build a bunker until much later. What do you do if you get 6-pooled in this build?
six pool is SOO rare at my level of play since the patch ive only been six pooled ONCE and it was on metalopolis strangely enough and it ended in complete failure for the zerg, since i send my depot building scv to scout i have alot of warning, if i see the six pool comming i just complete my wall in with an early depo, six pool is SUCH a bad strat vs terran
On November 03 2010 09:14 Pookie Monster wrote: This replay is a great replay for a variation of the two base push i drop marines in his main while sending the bulk of my army to his front, this is against a 2400 zerg and i make quite a few mistakes not sniping spire when i had the chance then sacking marines, banshees out of position for his counterattack, not having scvs to repair thors for my first push yada yada yada, he still gets steamrolled ill post it here and with the others since i feel it improves the build legendofbert is my second account if anyone is confused TvZ marine banshee thor build with two pronged push
Good game. But why did you make 3 factories? No way could you fund that with 2 base(your 3rd was just starting at the end). That zerg handled that 2 prong so poorly lol. I love this build though, it's grown on me. Did you come up with it? How does your tvt or tvp compare? Do you have specific builds for those too? Fill me in =D
not sure why i made the factory my money got high for a bit so i wanted to spend it, yes he did handle that attacks poorly but the thing is players have such a bad time focusing in two areas at once even good diamond players have bad "one A" syndrome where the can only control one control group at a time thats why attacks like that work so well, divide his army. and yes i never did the reaper build so it was stuff like this i worked on that allowed me to compete, i do have a dedicated TVT strat that works as well as this one, i could make a thread about if anyone wants, my TvP however i will not post since the only two strats i use are marine banshee and marine ghost both of which were crafted by other players and have threads on them already,
I'm a little bit tired of these people telling you that they are a "2000+" x player without showing you any evidences of it...
Plus, the win ratio, the average time you're spending on the game, and the servers you're playing on, also matter a lot, arguably more. If you made it to 2000 points on the American server and by massing games with a 50% win ratio, this doesn't say much on your real skill.
I watched your first replay and i like it a lot Zerg player here! Especially the part about putting him under pressure to deny his 3rd, because in the first replay thats what really kept you alive. You can really see later how you just outmacro him badly basically because his third base is soooo late and he has way less worker than he should have. I like this alot because most of the Ts thought about just killing the Z with two base and if that didnt go well then....well there wasnt a plan B. Most of the Zs will be irritated by this style and thats where its really up to themself if they can withstand the pressure and play smart. But also wanted to say something..... first replay.....you onle use ONE control grp. ONE xD i really dont know how you still expand that much with just one control group....you gotta get rid of that and use all of them *g. ( maybe you dont do that in the other replays :D, dunno ) But so far, pretty nice
On November 03 2010 19:22 TeWy wrote: I'm a little bit tired of these people telling you that they are a "2000+" x player without showing you any evidences of it...
Plus, the win ratio, the average time you're spending on the game, and the servers you're playing on, also matter a lot, arguably more. If you made it to 2000 points on the American server and by massing games with a 50% win ratio, this doesn't say much on your real skill.
not sure if your comment is directed at me but have you ever heard of SC ranks? you can search gamer tags to find their points, and im sick of hearing about how people on the korean server are better who gives a shit, im from north america and i play on that server and im assuming the majority of other people here do as well i made my thread about experiences laddering on the north american server if your not interested or think your strats are better go start your own thread.
On November 03 2010 19:22 TeWy wrote: I'm a little bit tired of these people telling you that they are a "2000+" x player without showing you any evidences of it...
Plus, the win ratio, the average time you're spending on the game, and the servers you're playing on, also matter a lot, arguably more. If you made it to 2000 points on the American server and by massing games with a 50% win ratio, this doesn't say much on your real skill.
And what exactly does that have to do with this thread?
Have you thought about one or two vikings before the initial medivac?
I've found that it doesn't much micro to send them running around on a patrol route around the whole map to hunt overlord scouts. (Specifically not over their main/natural, so you don't have to pay much attention to them or risk them getting hit by aa). Getting a couple of overlords can make a big difference in his army production capabilities.
It does delay the medivac drop if you are planning for dual pronged pushes, but it makes the front push more effective and slows the zerg's natural "rebuild the lost army faster" ability.
On November 04 2010 00:56 jaelerin wrote: Have you thought about one or two vikings before the initial medivac?
I've found that it doesn't much micro to send them running around on a patrol route around the whole map to hunt overlord scouts. (Specifically not over their main/natural, so you don't have to pay much attention to them or risk them getting hit by aa). Getting a couple of overlords can make a big difference in his army production capabilities.
It does delay the medivac drop if you are planning for dual pronged pushes, but it makes the front push more effective and slows the zerg's natural "rebuild the lost army faster" ability.
yes i have considered that still not sure how i can work early vikings into the build tho but id love to do that overlord hunting :o)
On November 04 2010 02:50 Vorlik wrote: You don't really need to make a new thread, but just a short little summary of your TvT BO =D Thanks!
in tvt i do a standard 10 supply 12 rax 13 refinery build make first marine, chase away scouting scv, making tech lab get reaper use reaper to scout what opponent is doing KEEP HIM ALIVE, hes only a scout dont try to get scv kills, make factory, right after reaper pops i lift and put reactor on barracks make starport asap pump marines constantly make tanks with seige, if he goes banshees make a single viking then swap building for tech lab to get raven, if hes going drops then make medvac after viking and counter drop when after you defend, if he goes fast expo make medvacs with no viking and bum rush him
So I just thought of something, concerning the early viking idea that was being tossed around. After you make your first medivac, and do the first drop, it might be worthwhile to build a single viking before your banshee or whatever you're transitioning into. The reason I think it might work is because after the zerg gets dropped, he is likely to place overlords at the outskirts of his base to spot any more drops that may come, if he hasn't done so beforehand. Plus, most zerg players position ovies around your base as I'm sure you're aware, to spot various things. All of these amount to free overlord kills. Like you say, it does slow your build down, but on the other hand, it isn't a significant investment, and it will most likely pay off.
Jaelin explained it pretty well, so I won't say much more beyond the fact that building a viking after you do the first drop might be great, if not for getting some free overlord kills, but at the very least to scout about the map for any ninja expansions or unit movements.
Also, Pookie, I was wondering if you could post some replays of you playing against some really heavy roach/ling play? I don't know if its very prevalent in diamond, but in gold it seems like its pretty popular to go mass roaches and lings, and it feels like it really contains me until I get a huge number of thors. Banshees seem to be what keeps me alive until I reach a critical mass of thors, but I would like to be able to feel safe moving out before then. Any advice would be appreciated.
On November 07 2010 08:08 Wrathgarr wrote: So I just thought of something, concerning the early viking idea that was being tossed around. After you make your first medivac, and do the first drop, it might be worthwhile to build a single viking before your banshee or whatever you're transitioning into. The reason I think it might work is because after the zerg gets dropped, he is likely to place overlords at the outskirts of his base to spot any more drops that may come, if he hasn't done so beforehand. Plus, most zerg players position ovies around your base as I'm sure you're aware, to spot various things. All of these amount to free overlord kills. Like you say, it does slow your build down, but on the other hand, it isn't a significant investment, and it will most likely pay off.
Jaelin explained it pretty well, so I won't say much more beyond the fact that building a viking after you do the first drop might be great, if not for getting some free overlord kills, but at the very least to scout about the map for any ninja expansions or unit movements.
Also, Pookie, I was wondering if you could post some replays of you playing against some really heavy roach/ling play? I don't know if its very prevalent in diamond, but in gold it seems like its pretty popular to go mass roaches and lings, and it feels like it really contains me until I get a huge number of thors. Banshees seem to be what keeps me alive until I reach a critical mass of thors, but I would like to be able to feel safe moving out before then. Any advice would be appreciated.
Ling roach is pretty rare unless the zerg did a late expansion its not popular in diamond cause it gets rofl steamrolled by marine tank pushes and two starport builds, plus you cant expo if ur opponent has banshees if you dont have muta i only have one replay i think of a zerg trying something like that he slow pushes me with creep tumors on close spawn metalopolis and loses i can post if i saved it but im not sure if thats what ur talking about
Heres the replay, of the roach ling and baneling push on metalopolis, prolly would have done better with a few tanks but w/e EDIT i dont think this is the right replay TVZ Edwards Metalopolis
As a zergplayer trying out terran I must say I have had extremly good succes against zergplayers around my level (as zerg.. that is 1700ish diamond) with 2rax no gas FE with constant pressure. It simply forces the zerg to make alot of units instead of droning while you urself get your nat saturated quickly.
Basically I transition this into a massrax game with an early third. An example of what I mean is the game between
Drewbie and Huk on Steppes in EG masters cup (I think its that one atleast)
You expand alot, attack constantly and make nothing but barracks. Lategame depending what the zerg does you ofc can transition into medivacs or get some mechsupport but if you constantly trade armies with the zerg medivacs get less important and being able to constantly produce from maximal amount of barracks more so. It seems to be a very effective strat with the current phase of the metagame atleast.
On November 08 2010 10:02 SoftSoap wrote: Wouldn't going for that quick factory be a little weak for early game pressure by zerg?
?? how early like 6 pool early? your walling off as terran the only thing that he can send at you that i ould consider early are lings roaches and banelings, lings cant get by wall, roaches you have to bunk against anyways and if he goes banelings then your factory is important for your wall off, this is diamond level play and 90% of the time zerg is doing a FE so..
On November 08 2010 10:02 SoftSoap wrote: Wouldn't going for that quick factory be a little weak for early game pressure by zerg?
?? how early like 6 pool early? your walling off as terran the only thing that he can send at you that i ould consider early are lings roaches and banelings, lings cant get by wall, roaches you have to bunk against anyways and if he goes banelings then your factory is important for your wall off, this is diamond level play and 90% of the time zerg is doing a FE so..
Pookie, which replay is the best/most fluent with the build order and what not? I just want to get a solid TvZ build and this looks very intriguing.
On November 08 2010 10:02 SoftSoap wrote: Wouldn't going for that quick factory be a little weak for early game pressure by zerg?
?? how early like 6 pool early? your walling off as terran the only thing that he can send at you that i ould consider early are lings roaches and banelings, lings cant get by wall, roaches you have to bunk against anyways and if he goes banelings then your factory is important for your wall off, this is diamond level play and 90% of the time zerg is doing a FE so..
Pookie, which replay is the best/most fluent with the build order and what not? I just want to get a solid TvZ build and this looks very intriguing.
I think the one against ZOG is probably the best, Zog is one of the best zergs on the NA server too. Ive actually tweaked MY Build order since ive posted these, i dont make my refinery til 150 minerals and i generally push with two thors now instead of 4 unless he has large amounts of lings/blings out. i am better about not losing my dropship and keeping the rines alive until my first banshee pops out so i can do two pronged attacks which are more effective. i believe this is shown better in the second replay than the first one since he only attacks with drones i decided to just sack the rines to get more drone kills, still saved the dropship tho. ill edit this post as well as the topic starter with some games ive had the last few days which show an evolution of this build.
On October 27 2010 23:16 mierin wrote: I have a feeling the Foxer Marine Shenanigans will be oh so prevalent in the ladder for the next week or so Guess I can't be such a greedy hatch-first-no-questions-asked kinda guy anymore.
On November 08 2010 10:02 SoftSoap wrote: Wouldn't going for that quick factory be a little weak for early game pressure by zerg?
?? how early like 6 pool early? your walling off as terran the only thing that he can send at you that i ould consider early are lings roaches and banelings, lings cant get by wall, roaches you have to bunk against anyways and if he goes banelings then your factory is important for your wall off, this is diamond level play and 90% of the time zerg is doing a FE so..
Pookie, which replay is the best/most fluent with the build order and what not? I just want to get a solid TvZ build and this looks very intriguing.
I think the one against ZOG is probably the best, Zog is one of the best zergs on the NA server too. Ive actually tweaked MY Build order since ive posted these, i dont make my refinery til 150 minerals and i generally push with two thors now instead of 4 unless he has large amounts of lings/blings out. i am better about not losing my dropship and keeping the rines alive until my first banshee pops out so i can do two pronged attacks which are more effective. ill edit this post as well as the topic starter with some games ive had the last few days which show an evolution of this build.
I noticed in the four replays that I watched that after the Z player removes all his drones from main to nat after your first drop, you start going for the spawning pool, which would be quite difficult to take down with 6 marines. Would going for the extractors be more viable? Or loading up and attacking the naturals' drones, and keep going back and forth?
How impacting would it be to remove that gas for the time it takes the Z player to remake the extractor plus the 30 seconds it takes to make. Not to mention one less drone mining?
On November 09 2010 22:45 Incompetence wrote: I noticed in the four replays that I watched that after the Z player removes all his drones from main to nat after your first drop, you start going for the spawning pool, which would be quite difficult to take down with 6 marines. Would going for the extractors be more viable? Or loading up and attacking the naturals' drones, and keep going back and forth?
How impacting would it be to remove that gas for the time it takes the Z player to remake the extractor plus the 30 seconds it takes to make. Not to mention one less drone mining?
i like going for the spawning pool cause its usually an insta win once the banshees come out since he cant make more queens i played a game today actually where that happened, but in general yeah its prolly more effective to move the rines over to behind his nat so he cant mine anywhere
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: i see endless threads on people asking how to deal with zerg in the new patch and i cant quite understand why as i have something like an 85% win rate vs zerg as a 2250 point terran. For my build you should go standard 10 supply but make gas before rax to get a fast factory. you use depot building scv to scout and make sure hes going FE. You should be continually pumping marines, as soon as factory is up you make starport and medivac, you should make a helllion to harass/scout and clear xelnaga towers, and hopefully get him to make alot of frontal defense and only anticipate hellion harrass. once medivac pops out you should send your 6 marines and the hellion to his main to harrass and do some damage but most importantly GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES, overlords and queens are your targets here supply blocking him and reducing his queen number makes banshee harass more devastating as well as the first timing push. be smart with your drop try not to lose the marines. with your starport you should make a banshee and an armory for thors as well as throwing up your own expo. the beauty of banshees is that they allow you to secure your expo with map control until he gets mutas. use the banshee for defense if hes being aggresive otherwise use it to once again clear watch towers and destroy his spreading creep tumors only use the banshee to attack his main if he handled your drop poorly and allowed you to kill his queens or severely weaken them. once your expo is up and running you should continue to pump thors, rines and banshees as gas allows then go for a quick push push once you have either 2 or 4 Thors depending on the situation i find the two thor push with all your marines and a banshee or two to be the most effective as many zergs have not yet put up a baneling nest and certainly will not have centrifugal hooks. or have any mutas out yet allowing you to pick off the banelings before they take out your rines and scvs, spread the rines to reduce damage, if u have foxer grade marine micro or he neglects to make a baneling nest this push is absolutely devastating and ends many, MANY of my terran vs Zerg games. if you still have your drop ship and marines you can do a two pronged attack against his main and natural as he will likely need everything he has to hold off your rines banshees and scv repaired thors and may not even notice the drop in his main, if the zerg goes muta and tries to 3rd expand its usually GG if he goes roaches and banelings with no mutas u can use your banshees and dropship/marines to harass and deny him third. Its your choice whether to stay bio mech switch to all mech or go bio for late game you have all the structures neccesary to start you off on any tech patch you choose. the replays will show more detail, enjoy My apm is only about 100 so this isnt stuff that requires incredible micro and is very viable in high diamond ive beaten cellawerra and Rigid with this build two great zerg players that have live streams here on TL. GL
Legendofbert is my second account Pookie is my primary one
This is a pretty interesting gameplay style that is great to watch. Only criticism is that your OP needs reorganization. It is hard to decipher the exact build.
So it starts out basically like the iEchoic TvP build? -10 Depot -12 Gas -13 Rax -> Infinite Marines -16 OC -Factory -> Hellions Harass with Hellions - SP -> Medivac + Heptadrop with Hellion + Marines - Tech Labs on Factory + SP - Armory Build Banshees and Thors. Move out at 4 Thors?
On November 12 2010 11:53 Antisocialmunky wrote: This is a pretty interesting gameplay style that is great to watch. Only criticism is that your OP needs reorganization. It is hard to decipher the exact build.
So it starts out basically like the iEchoic TvP build? -10 Depot -12 Gas -13 Rax -> Infinite Marines -16 OC -Factory -> Hellions Harass with Hellions - SP -> Medivac + Heptadrop with Hellion + Marines - Tech Labs on Factory + SP - Armory Build Banshees and Thors. Move out at 4 Thors?
yeah i forgot to put in the part about having a reactor add on to the fact that switches out with the barracks but in the OP i stated you should push out with two thors and the shitload of marines u have been making since your barracks was up as well as the two banshees and medivac you should have at this point with this timing u can hit right as hes getting mutas out which means u dont have to play defense and sometimes i dont need to make turrets at all cause he immediately has to pull his mutas back to his base to defend
Hey Pookie, this strat is helping me out quite a bit. I was getting dismantled when using marine heavy, FE type builds. This is more my style. I enjoy the fast drop. What amount of damage should one aim at doing with this?
I also like the push right before mutas, because I hate mutas.The losses Ive had have been due to not reacting well to roach pressure or allowing my marine force to get destroyed by banes, and then mutas magix-boxing my thors.
On November 13 2010 02:43 KoArtist wrote: Hey Pookie, this strat is helping me out quite a bit. I was getting dismantled when using marine heavy, FE type builds. This is more my style. I enjoy the fast drop. What amount of damage should one aim at doing with this?
I also like the push right before mutas, because I hate mutas.The losses Ive had have been due to not reacting well to roach pressure or allowing my marine force to get destroyed by banes, and then mutas magix-boxing my thors.
Heres the thing that many people overlook, that first drop doesnt actually have to do much damage, lets say you drop his base only kill an overload and he retreats all his units to his spine crawlers at his natural then busts out a crapload of lings and repels your drop. U can bet your ass that all those lings he just made would have been drones otherwise, your forcing him to use his larva to have a mobile army at a time when he would rather have an absurd economy, your also disrupting his larva injects, ive had zergs send thier two or three queens to fend the drop and just transfuse eachother. GREAT now he has less mana for larva injects and creep tumors which will get VERY annoying when u send that first banshee to destroy whatever creep tumor he does spit out or force more transfusions by attacking a lone queen, he might retaliate by making more queens, GREAT now he has less minerals for lings/muta/roaches to deal with your thor push and you can laugh as his 4 queens get focused down effortlessly by your thors and marines.
if your opponent is FEing And going for early roach pressure he very likely will NOT have ling speed before you have a banshee out, what this means is that with your first hellion you should clear the lethargic lings at watch towers and take them yourself with an scv if you see roaches comming before you drop his base put up a bunker and if its a significant number of roaches rather than just two like some zergs like to do then leave your drop in your base to defend, its ok since hes sacrificing larva and economy to be aggressive, just counter his push, get your banshee out then go ahead and drop his main when you feel like you have things under control.
if your opponent is going heavy muta with banelings you should not push out a second time until you have +2 attack on your thors this allows thors to two shot mutas, this is a VERY important upgrade if your going mech vs zerg as it makes mutas far less cost effective vs your thors even with magic box, and god forbid he miss micro his mutas -_- u should also have a a raven or two for pdd and should not be making banshees if he has chosen to go muta baneling only, ravens are key here.
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES
The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup.
I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans.
i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units
I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway.
It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play.
Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers.
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES
The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup.
I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans.
i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units
I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway.
It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play.
Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers.
lol you make it sound so easy, if the zerg has 12 speedlings out when my drop comes then he isnt "happily droning away" hes making lings duh and with good dropship micro u can slowly pick off the lings anyway forcing him to make more, against cellawerra i sent that many scvs cause i knew he didnt have a baneling nest or even a large number of lings, he was wasnt very far ahead in economy due to my drop harrassment so i could afford to send more scvs than usual to make my thors more cost effecient i dont get how having a expo up dropping constant mules and making scvs makes my push "super all-in" just cause i sent 8 with my attack, scv repaired thors are ALWAYS a good idea. i have no more than 2 banshees when i push and i dont invest in cloak so its not really a big deal if i cant do much harrassment in his main with them, if the zerg goes for a strong roach/ling push early then banshees are the only way you can get your expo up, this build is all about good options and good ratios.
Oh and BTW cellawerra played me immediately before the game where i beat him and i did the EXACT same build order but with better micro as he coached me to do in the beginning, so dont give me that bs that since the zerg knows its comming it isnt going to be effective.
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES
The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup.
I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans.
i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units
I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway.
It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play.
Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers.
lol you make it sound so easy, if the zerg has 12 speedlings out when my drop comes then he isnt "happily droning away" hes making lings duh and with good dropship micro u can slowly pick off the lings anyway forcing him to make more, against cellawerra i sent that many scvs cause i knew he didnt have a baneling nest or even a large number of lings, he was wasnt very far ahead in economy due to my drop harrassment so i could afford to send more scvs than usual to make my thors more cost effecient i dont get how having a expo up dropping constant mules and making scvs makes my push "super all-in" just cause i sent 8 with my attack, scv repaired thors are ALWAYS a good idea. i have no more than 2 banshees when i push and i dont invest in cloak so its not really a big deal if i cant do much harrassment in his main with them, if the zerg goes for a strong roach/ling push early then banshees are the only way you can get your expo up, this build is all about good options and good ratios.
Oh and BTW cellawerra played me immediately before the game where i beat him and i did the EXACT same build order but with better micro as he coached me to do in the beginning, so dont give me that bs that since the zerg knows its comming it isnt going to be effective.
I'm gonna ignore your childish attitude and respond to what actually concerns the strategy. If Cella knew that strategy was coming he reacted completely wrong to it. Why the fuck would you make 7 roaches to try to bust a Terran without speedlings? It's completely senseless and I've never seen it work against a good opponent that early in the game. He sacrificed A LOT of early economy by first of all stopping mining a few times since he stupidly sent all his slow-ass forces around the map, thus not having any defense. I'd just get 3 queens, ling speed and quick tech to lair while weighing drones / lings by how much agression I feel is coming. Why would you even open roaches vs T? I don't see ANY reason to do it. Roaches suck vs Terran bio. I also don't know why he's trying to be so agressive over cross positions. Roaches take FOREVER to get over the map allowing you to get 20 bunkers up if you please.
Oh yeah and 12 speedlings is nothing against 1 base play. It's almost the most economical 1 base response there is. Against a blue flame hellion drop or just reactor hellions or 3-rax stim push you have to get A LOT more + they actually can kill drones if prepared for, much to the contrary of your 6 marine 1 hellion drop. Zerg can just right click his lings on your dropship and then pick off your marines as they come out of the dropship one by one. You don't even have stim so they are even less threatening.
You don't see how sacrificing your economy for a push is all-in? 13 workers on minerals 13 minutes into the game... If Zerg stops your push you are essientally out of the game. You have no forces, and you will never be able to take your 3rd against Zerg since you simply can't reproduce units at the rate a non-crippled Zerg can with your weakened economy.
Also 4 banelings could clear all the SCVs surrounding the thors while also softening them up. He just attack moved his roaches. No wonder he's gonna get rolled by that attack.
Point is, he played very poorly and if you try this build against someone who plays ZvT like idra does you're gonna get rolled since 10 mutas will easily be out by the time your 2 thor push comes in and past that you have lost all map control and initiative in the game.
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES
The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup.
I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans.
i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units
I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway.
It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play.
Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers.
lol you make it sound so easy, if the zerg has 12 speedlings out when my drop comes then he isnt "happily droning away" hes making lings duh and with good dropship micro u can slowly pick off the lings anyway forcing him to make more, against cellawerra i sent that many scvs cause i knew he didnt have a baneling nest or even a large number of lings, he was wasnt very far ahead in economy due to my drop harrassment so i could afford to send more scvs than usual to make my thors more cost effecient i dont get how having a expo up dropping constant mules and making scvs makes my push "super all-in" just cause i sent 8 with my attack, scv repaired thors are ALWAYS a good idea. i have no more than 2 banshees when i push and i dont invest in cloak so its not really a big deal if i cant do much harrassment in his main with them, if the zerg goes for a strong roach/ling push early then banshees are the only way you can get your expo up, this build is all about good options and good ratios.
Oh and BTW cellawerra played me immediately before the game where i beat him and i did the EXACT same build order but with better micro as he coached me to do in the beginning, so dont give me that bs that since the zerg knows its comming it isnt going to be effective.
I'm gonna ignore your childish attitude and respond to what actually concerns the strategy. If Cella knew that strategy was coming he reacted completely wrong to it. Why the fuck would you make 7 roaches to try to bust a Terran without speedlings? It's completely senseless and I've never seen it work against a good opponent that early in the game. He sacrificed A LOT of early economy by first of all stopping mining a few times since he stupidly sent all his slow-ass forces around the map, thus not having any defense. I'd just get 3 queens, ling speed and quick tech to lair while weighing drones / lings by how much agression I feel is coming. Why would you even open roaches vs T? I don't see ANY reason to do it. Roaches suck vs Terran bio. I also don't know why he's trying to be so agressive over cross positions. Roaches take FOREVER to get over the map allowing you to get 20 bunkers up if you please.
Oh yeah and 12 speedlings is nothing against 1 base play. It's almost the most economical 1 base response there is. Against a blue flame hellion drop or just reactor hellions or 3-rax stim push you have to get A LOT more + they actually can kill drones if prepared for, much to the contrary of your 6 marine 1 hellion drop. Zerg can just right click his lings on your dropship and then pick off your marines as they come out of the dropship one by one. You don't even have stim so they are even less threatening.
You don't see how sacrificing your economy for a push is all-in? 13 workers on minerals 13 minutes into the game... If Zerg stops your push you are essientally out of the game. You have no forces, and you will never be able to take your 3rd against Zerg since you simply can't reproduce units at the rate a non-crippled Zerg can with your weakened economy.
Also 4 banelings could clear all the SCVs surrounding the thors while also softening them up. He just attack moved his roaches. No wonder he's gonna get rolled by that attack.
Point is, he played very poorly and if you try this build against someone who plays ZvT like idra does you're gonna get rolled since 10 mutas will easily be out by the time your 2 thor push comes in and past that you have lost all map control and initiative in the game.
LOL your a funny guy and your the same guy that send the zerg player would have 10 roaches when i only have 4 marines haha, its like u only say what sounds good at the moment, go read your earlier posts on my thread genius. you rant and rave about how bad my build would get owned by early roach pressure at my front then when u see me hold off early roach pressure at my front you blast the zerg player as being dumb for sending roaches -_-
I already mention i didnt see a baneling nest which is why i sent extra scvs knowing they are effective with thors against roaches in smaller numbers without baneling support, so you respond by saying im dumb for sending extra scvs cause he can kill them with four banelings -_-
You then end your reply by saying i would get beat by someone who plays at Idras level, hes one of the best Zerg players in the world, is that a compliment or what? cause i certainly dont profess to be at Idras level
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES
The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup.
I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans.
i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units
I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway.
It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play.
Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers.
lol you make it sound so easy, if the zerg has 12 speedlings out when my drop comes then he isnt "happily droning away" hes making lings duh and with good dropship micro u can slowly pick off the lings anyway forcing him to make more, against cellawerra i sent that many scvs cause i knew he didnt have a baneling nest or even a large number of lings, he was wasnt very far ahead in economy due to my drop harrassment so i could afford to send more scvs than usual to make my thors more cost effecient i dont get how having a expo up dropping constant mules and making scvs makes my push "super all-in" just cause i sent 8 with my attack, scv repaired thors are ALWAYS a good idea. i have no more than 2 banshees when i push and i dont invest in cloak so its not really a big deal if i cant do much harrassment in his main with them, if the zerg goes for a strong roach/ling push early then banshees are the only way you can get your expo up, this build is all about good options and good ratios.
Oh and BTW cellawerra played me immediately before the game where i beat him and i did the EXACT same build order but with better micro as he coached me to do in the beginning, so dont give me that bs that since the zerg knows its comming it isnt going to be effective.
I'm gonna ignore your childish attitude and respond to what actually concerns the strategy. If Cella knew that strategy was coming he reacted completely wrong to it. Why the fuck would you make 7 roaches to try to bust a Terran without speedlings? It's completely senseless and I've never seen it work against a good opponent that early in the game. He sacrificed A LOT of early economy by first of all stopping mining a few times since he stupidly sent all his slow-ass forces around the map, thus not having any defense. I'd just get 3 queens, ling speed and quick tech to lair while weighing drones / lings by how much agression I feel is coming. Why would you even open roaches vs T? I don't see ANY reason to do it. Roaches suck vs Terran bio. I also don't know why he's trying to be so agressive over cross positions. Roaches take FOREVER to get over the map allowing you to get 20 bunkers up if you please.
Oh yeah and 12 speedlings is nothing against 1 base play. It's almost the most economical 1 base response there is. Against a blue flame hellion drop or just reactor hellions or 3-rax stim push you have to get A LOT more + they actually can kill drones if prepared for, much to the contrary of your 6 marine 1 hellion drop. Zerg can just right click his lings on your dropship and then pick off your marines as they come out of the dropship one by one. You don't even have stim so they are even less threatening.
You don't see how sacrificing your economy for a push is all-in? 13 workers on minerals 13 minutes into the game... If Zerg stops your push you are essientally out of the game. You have no forces, and you will never be able to take your 3rd against Zerg since you simply can't reproduce units at the rate a non-crippled Zerg can with your weakened economy.
Also 4 banelings could clear all the SCVs surrounding the thors while also softening them up. He just attack moved his roaches. No wonder he's gonna get rolled by that attack.
Point is, he played very poorly and if you try this build against someone who plays ZvT like idra does you're gonna get rolled since 10 mutas will easily be out by the time your 2 thor push comes in and past that you have lost all map control and initiative in the game.
LOL your a funny guy and your the same guy that send the zerg player would have 10 roaches when i only have 4 marines haha, its like u only say what sounds good at the moment, go read your earlier posts on my thread genius. you rant and rave about how bad my build would get owned by early roach pressure at my front then when u see me hold off early roach pressure at my front you blast the zerg player as being dumb for sending roaches -_-
I already mention i didnt see a baneling nest which is why i sent extra scvs knowing they are effective with thors against roaches in smaller numbers without baneling support, so you respond by saying im dumb for sending extra scvs cause he can kill them with four banelings -_-
You then end your reply by saying i would get beat by someone who plays at Idras level, hes one of the best Zerg players in the world, is that a compliment or what? cause i certainly dont profess to be at Idras level
Yeah I used to think roaches were good in ZvT, but they arent. At least not as an opener and early agression is pretty laughable anyway for Zerg.
Ok ignoring that banelings murder SCVs. Even if he has no banelings nest, I dont think sacrificing economy is a good play.
And yeah, you should probably read my post again, I said against someone who plays ZvT LIKE IdrA. It's pretty obvious that IdrA would shred your using this build. Anyway. Against 1 base play a Zerg will have 1-2 spine crawlers and a good amount of speedlings, because 1 base play is ALWAYS agression. You're doing no damage against that build and you are economically far behind. The only good thing is that at the moment most zerg as they see an expansion feel like they HAVE to only make drones for the next 3 minutes and that's when you hit with your 2 thor push.
My point stands. I think there are much more abusive and much stronger 1 base plays out there. Since if Z just hangs back against this playstyle and reacts occirdingly he will come out ahead.
edit:
oh yeah and this BO has absolutely nothing to do with Z FE. What would punish that is early 2 rax play as shown by BoxeR. This push hits after any disadvantage of a 10-20 hatch has dissappeared and might try to punish 2 base play. But anything that isn't early 2 base play by Zerg is crap anyway.
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES
The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup.
I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans.
i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units
I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway.
It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play.
Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers.
lol you make it sound so easy, if the zerg has 12 speedlings out when my drop comes then he isnt "happily droning away" hes making lings duh and with good dropship micro u can slowly pick off the lings anyway forcing him to make more, against cellawerra i sent that many scvs cause i knew he didnt have a baneling nest or even a large number of lings, he was wasnt very far ahead in economy due to my drop harrassment so i could afford to send more scvs than usual to make my thors more cost effecient i dont get how having a expo up dropping constant mules and making scvs makes my push "super all-in" just cause i sent 8 with my attack, scv repaired thors are ALWAYS a good idea. i have no more than 2 banshees when i push and i dont invest in cloak so its not really a big deal if i cant do much harrassment in his main with them, if the zerg goes for a strong roach/ling push early then banshees are the only way you can get your expo up, this build is all about good options and good ratios.
Oh and BTW cellawerra played me immediately before the game where i beat him and i did the EXACT same build order but with better micro as he coached me to do in the beginning, so dont give me that bs that since the zerg knows its comming it isnt going to be effective.
I'm gonna ignore your childish attitude and respond to what actually concerns the strategy. If Cella knew that strategy was coming he reacted completely wrong to it. Why the fuck would you make 7 roaches to try to bust a Terran without speedlings? It's completely senseless and I've never seen it work against a good opponent that early in the game. He sacrificed A LOT of early economy by first of all stopping mining a few times since he stupidly sent all his slow-ass forces around the map, thus not having any defense. I'd just get 3 queens, ling speed and quick tech to lair while weighing drones / lings by how much agression I feel is coming. Why would you even open roaches vs T? I don't see ANY reason to do it. Roaches suck vs Terran bio. I also don't know why he's trying to be so agressive over cross positions. Roaches take FOREVER to get over the map allowing you to get 20 bunkers up if you please.
Oh yeah and 12 speedlings is nothing against 1 base play. It's almost the most economical 1 base response there is. Against a blue flame hellion drop or just reactor hellions or 3-rax stim push you have to get A LOT more + they actually can kill drones if prepared for, much to the contrary of your 6 marine 1 hellion drop. Zerg can just right click his lings on your dropship and then pick off your marines as they come out of the dropship one by one. You don't even have stim so they are even less threatening.
You don't see how sacrificing your economy for a push is all-in? 13 workers on minerals 13 minutes into the game... If Zerg stops your push you are essientally out of the game. You have no forces, and you will never be able to take your 3rd against Zerg since you simply can't reproduce units at the rate a non-crippled Zerg can with your weakened economy.
Also 4 banelings could clear all the SCVs surrounding the thors while also softening them up. He just attack moved his roaches. No wonder he's gonna get rolled by that attack.
Point is, he played very poorly and if you try this build against someone who plays ZvT like idra does you're gonna get rolled since 10 mutas will easily be out by the time your 2 thor push comes in and past that you have lost all map control and initiative in the game.
LOL your a funny guy and your the same guy that send the zerg player would have 10 roaches when i only have 4 marines haha, its like u only say what sounds good at the moment, go read your earlier posts on my thread genius. you rant and rave about how bad my build would get owned by early roach pressure at my front then when u see me hold off early roach pressure at my front you blast the zerg player as being dumb for sending roaches -_-
I already mention i didnt see a baneling nest which is why i sent extra scvs knowing they are effective with thors against roaches in smaller numbers without baneling support, so you respond by saying im dumb for sending extra scvs cause he can kill them with four banelings -_-
You then end your reply by saying i would get beat by someone who plays at Idras level, hes one of the best Zerg players in the world, is that a compliment or what? cause i certainly dont profess to be at Idras level
Yeah I used to think roaches were good in ZvT, but they arent. At least not as an opener and early agression is pretty laughable anyway for Zerg.
Ok ignoring that banelings murder SCVs. Even if he has no banelings nest, I dont think sacrificing economy is a good play.
And yeah, you should probably read my post again, I said against someone who plays ZvT LIKE IdrA. It's pretty obvious that IdrA would shred your using this build. Anyway. Against 1 base play a Zerg will have 1-2 spine crawlers and a good amount of speedlings, because 1 base play is ALWAYS agression. You're doing no damage against that build and you are economically far behind. The only good thing is that at the moment most zerg as they see an expansion feel like they HAVE to only make drones for the next 3 minutes and that's when you hit with your 2 thor push.
My point stands. I think there are much more abusive and much stronger 1 base plays out there. Since if Z just hangs back against this playstyle and reacts occirdingly he will come out ahead.
edit:
oh yeah and this BO has absolutely nothing to do with Z FE. What would punish that is early 2 rax play as shown by BoxeR. This push hits after any disadvantage of a 10-20 hatch has dissappeared and might try to punish 2 base play. But anything that isn't early 2 base play by Zerg is crap anyway.
Idra would shred me using any build lol, there isnt an autobeat Idra build where someone who isnt a tournament level player can beat him just by using that build. i think your being too harsh for no reason. i feel like fast expo builds suck ass vs zerg, and i feel far more comfortable staying on one base long enough to make sure i can properly secure it vs whatever he throws at me. your talking from a zergs point of view saying OMG i could beat this build easily if i encountered it, yet i havent seen a terran player come on this thread and say i tried your build and still get rolled all the time by zerg, ive only gotten positive feedback from terrans who were having trouble against zerg and are doing better now using this build.
Why come on a thread and basically say "if the zerg player is really good and holds off all your aggression and plays very well he will beat you" cant you say that about any build? You say that my zerg opponents made mistakes that i exploited which is why i beat them? No shit? isnt that how every game is won?
can you point me to the threads with the builds that you say are more abusive against zerg id love to see them
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES
The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup.
I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans.
i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units
I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway.
It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play.
Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers.
lol you make it sound so easy, if the zerg has 12 speedlings out when my drop comes then he isnt "happily droning away" hes making lings duh and with good dropship micro u can slowly pick off the lings anyway forcing him to make more, against cellawerra i sent that many scvs cause i knew he didnt have a baneling nest or even a large number of lings, he was wasnt very far ahead in economy due to my drop harrassment so i could afford to send more scvs than usual to make my thors more cost effecient i dont get how having a expo up dropping constant mules and making scvs makes my push "super all-in" just cause i sent 8 with my attack, scv repaired thors are ALWAYS a good idea. i have no more than 2 banshees when i push and i dont invest in cloak so its not really a big deal if i cant do much harrassment in his main with them, if the zerg goes for a strong roach/ling push early then banshees are the only way you can get your expo up, this build is all about good options and good ratios.
Oh and BTW cellawerra played me immediately before the game where i beat him and i did the EXACT same build order but with better micro as he coached me to do in the beginning, so dont give me that bs that since the zerg knows its comming it isnt going to be effective.
I'm gonna ignore your childish attitude and respond to what actually concerns the strategy. If Cella knew that strategy was coming he reacted completely wrong to it. Why the fuck would you make 7 roaches to try to bust a Terran without speedlings? It's completely senseless and I've never seen it work against a good opponent that early in the game. He sacrificed A LOT of early economy by first of all stopping mining a few times since he stupidly sent all his slow-ass forces around the map, thus not having any defense. I'd just get 3 queens, ling speed and quick tech to lair while weighing drones / lings by how much agression I feel is coming. Why would you even open roaches vs T? I don't see ANY reason to do it. Roaches suck vs Terran bio. I also don't know why he's trying to be so agressive over cross positions. Roaches take FOREVER to get over the map allowing you to get 20 bunkers up if you please.
Oh yeah and 12 speedlings is nothing against 1 base play. It's almost the most economical 1 base response there is. Against a blue flame hellion drop or just reactor hellions or 3-rax stim push you have to get A LOT more + they actually can kill drones if prepared for, much to the contrary of your 6 marine 1 hellion drop. Zerg can just right click his lings on your dropship and then pick off your marines as they come out of the dropship one by one. You don't even have stim so they are even less threatening.
You don't see how sacrificing your economy for a push is all-in? 13 workers on minerals 13 minutes into the game... If Zerg stops your push you are essientally out of the game. You have no forces, and you will never be able to take your 3rd against Zerg since you simply can't reproduce units at the rate a non-crippled Zerg can with your weakened economy.
Also 4 banelings could clear all the SCVs surrounding the thors while also softening them up. He just attack moved his roaches. No wonder he's gonna get rolled by that attack.
Point is, he played very poorly and if you try this build against someone who plays ZvT like idra does you're gonna get rolled since 10 mutas will easily be out by the time your 2 thor push comes in and past that you have lost all map control and initiative in the game.
LOL your a funny guy and your the same guy that send the zerg player would have 10 roaches when i only have 4 marines haha, its like u only say what sounds good at the moment, go read your earlier posts on my thread genius. you rant and rave about how bad my build would get owned by early roach pressure at my front then when u see me hold off early roach pressure at my front you blast the zerg player as being dumb for sending roaches -_-
I already mention i didnt see a baneling nest which is why i sent extra scvs knowing they are effective with thors against roaches in smaller numbers without baneling support, so you respond by saying im dumb for sending extra scvs cause he can kill them with four banelings -_-
You then end your reply by saying i would get beat by someone who plays at Idras level, hes one of the best Zerg players in the world, is that a compliment or what? cause i certainly dont profess to be at Idras level
Yeah I used to think roaches were good in ZvT, but they arent. At least not as an opener and early agression is pretty laughable anyway for Zerg.
Ok ignoring that banelings murder SCVs. Even if he has no banelings nest, I dont think sacrificing economy is a good play.
And yeah, you should probably read my post again, I said against someone who plays ZvT LIKE IdrA. It's pretty obvious that IdrA would shred your using this build. Anyway. Against 1 base play a Zerg will have 1-2 spine crawlers and a good amount of speedlings, because 1 base play is ALWAYS agression. You're doing no damage against that build and you are economically far behind. The only good thing is that at the moment most zerg as they see an expansion feel like they HAVE to only make drones for the next 3 minutes and that's when you hit with your 2 thor push.
My point stands. I think there are much more abusive and much stronger 1 base plays out there. Since if Z just hangs back against this playstyle and reacts occirdingly he will come out ahead.
edit:
oh yeah and this BO has absolutely nothing to do with Z FE. What would punish that is early 2 rax play as shown by BoxeR. This push hits after any disadvantage of a 10-20 hatch has dissappeared and might try to punish 2 base play. But anything that isn't early 2 base play by Zerg is crap anyway.
Idra would shred me using any build lol, there isnt an autobeat Idra build where someone who isnt a tournament level player can beat him just by using that build. i think your being too harsh for no reason. i feel like fast expo builds suck ass vs zerg, and i feel far more comfortable staying on one base long enough to make sure i can properly secure it vs whatever he throws at me. your talking from a zergs point of view saying OMG i could beat this build easily if i encountered it, yet i havent seen a terran player come on this thread and say i tried your build and still get rolled all the time by zerg, ive only gotten positive feedback from terrans who were having trouble against zerg and are doing better now using this build.
Why come on a thread and basically say "if the zerg player is really good and holds off all your aggression and plays very well he will beat you" cant you say that about any build? You say that my zerg opponents made mistakes that i exploited which is why i beat them? No shit? isnt that how every game is won?
can you point me to the threads with the builds that you say are more abusive against zerg id love to see them
That's the problem, there's currently no good guides on TL. Especially for Terran. :/ Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Don't get me wrong. This is going in the right direction. The timings work well and with the current mindset of Zergs you probably wind up just auto-winning against most of them since they don't really have a plan / don't know how to respond / lack scouting. However I think this isn't a really solid style that we will still see in a half-year from now (unlike for example tank marine styles or ling muta etc.), but I might just be wrong.
i can accept that, as the metagame changes and the patches come out certain builds just arent as good anymore look at reactor hellion opening i used to love that build but now i think you would get steamrolled lol but for now i think this build is great and works very well against the current zerg metagame,
On November 14 2010 11:16 Pookie Monster wrote: i can accept that, as the metagame changes and the patches come out certain builds just arent as good anymore look at reactor hellion opening i used to love that build but now i think you would get steamrolled lol but for now i think this build is great and works very well against the current zerg metagame,
ChickenLips loves to discredit everything in the harshest way possible. Just do what works for you and ignore the haters because you'll never be able to convince them.
I'm wondering, how effective is this on something like cross positions on Shakuras. You almost have to expand. I apologize if you have a rep of it but I haven't looked through them all.
On November 14 2010 11:16 Pookie Monster wrote: i can accept that, as the metagame changes and the patches come out certain builds just arent as good anymore look at reactor hellion opening i used to love that build but now i think you would get steamrolled lol but for now i think this build is great and works very well against the current zerg metagame,
ChickenLips loves to discredit everything in the harshest way possible. Just do what works for you and ignore the haters because you'll never be able to convince them.
I'm wondering, how effective is this on something like cross positions on Shakuras. You almost have to expand. I apologize if you have a rep of it but I haven't looked through them all.
i believe two replays are on shakuras, and the thing is i throw up my expo at about 35 food so that isnt very late its just delayed, i still consider this to be an expansion focused build its just a safer expansion that allows you to apply pressure to zerg.
just wanted to stop by and say thanks. been having some problems recent in tvz and pvz match ups and i couldn't really figure out my problem until i read your post today. i was focusing too much on trying to find the proper army/unit composition but the problem was, as you said, that i wasn't forcing the zerg to use his larvae for units.
it might be obvious to others but i didn't realize that another way to hurt/delay the zerg econ is to force him to unit up instead of using those on drones. thanks
Timing's are really nice in your replays. I noticed that a lot of the Zerg's play in the dark for most of the time. No overlord pokes were done in the replays I watched (I think the top 3?) and only zergling pokes were done to see your reactor factory (later to be switched with the barracks).
It's nice because it makes the zerg put some spines down. I'm really digging the 6 marine/1 hellion harass. You probably can steamroll the opponents more if you had your apm up to micro the hellion you sometimes lose. I'm also convinced that it works because it's evident that you don't need a huge amount of mechanical skill to pull it off.
I'll have to try this vs Zerg...so far the FoxeR marine/scv all-in is working for me, but we all know SC2 is more about eco, and people will start figuring out how to defend the cheese lol.
Pookie Monster u did great job with sharing thoose replays, maybe ChikenLips can share his knolege and we can improve our TvZ games, so we can 100% win statistics vs Zerg
I love your strat been using it on the ladder havent lost so far (1800 diamond)
Beats early 3 base / early roaches(scouted) / and most importantly baneling busts
The hellion comes out and sometimes I find banelines morphing right outside my base as the timings collide and I can reinforce my wall easily. The one hellion can also force the zerg to prematurely try his bust as 1 hellion can kill alot of unspeeded zergs/banes
On November 15 2010 14:53 jay236 wrote: Timing's are really nice in your replays. I noticed that a lot of the Zerg's play in the dark for most of the time. No overlord pokes were done in the replays I watched (I think the top 3?) and only zergling pokes were done to see your reactor factory (later to be switched with the barracks).
It's nice because it makes the zerg put some spines down. I'm really digging the 6 marine/1 hellion harass. You probably can steamroll the opponents more if you had your apm up to micro the hellion you sometimes lose. I'm also convinced that it works because it's evident that you don't need a huge amount of mechanical skill to pull it off.
I'll have to try this vs Zerg...so far the FoxeR marine/scv all-in is working for me, but we all know SC2 is more about eco, and people will start figuring out how to defend the cheese lol.
yeah sometimes i would much prefer to have two more marines instead of the hellion because of how much faster it is than the marines, my apm has been slowly climbing in recent weeks so im sure ill get better with that micro
Don't listen to chickenlips, he's just a little troll. I love this build as a terran. I went from losing 80% of my zerg matches, to winning 80% of them <3
Hey Pookie, thanks for the insight on the drop. I see your point on making zerg miss larva injects, quite logical.
I was wondering though, since your timing push comes before mutas, would it not be preferable to go with 3 tanks instead of 2 thors? The tanks' damage output is great against the numerous speedlings.
On November 15 2010 22:28 KoArtist wrote: Hey Pookie, thanks for the insight on the drop. I see your point on making zerg miss larva injects, quite logical.
I was wondering though, since your timing push comes before mutas, would it not be preferable to go with 3 tanks instead of 2 thors? The tanks' damage output is great against the numerous speedlings.
you know ive been debating that myself and i think im going to try that in a few games and see how that goes
Don't take this as offense, i really liked the replays and I think it was an incredibly gameplay, your just so good, but overall I dont think it's the strat that beat the opponents at all, but your micro control, and timing, for example in the cellawerra's game you get supply blocked like everytime, but micro drops and marines and hellions so well that he can't expand. Overall I don't think it's your strategy that works but the way you pull it out (altho we could call it strategy, I think it's more micro-related ... )
On November 15 2010 23:20 noD wrote: Don't take this as offense, i really liked the replays and I think it was an incredibly gameplay, your just so good, but overall I dont think it's the strat that beat the opponents at all, but your micro control, and timing, for example in the cellawerra's game you get supply blocked like everytime, but micro drops and marines and hellions so well that he can't expand. Overall I don't think it's your strategy that works but the way you pull it out (altho we could call it strategy, I think it's more micro-related ... )
really? i didnt think my micro was all that great i think the strategy is really good at dealing with a wide range of zerg openings which is why i like it so much and the timings seem to catch so many zergs with their carapace down
only way a zerg has mutas out before my drop is if he went one base fast lair in which case he has already lost, the proper zerg defense to this is a decent amount of lings or roaches at his main and expo u can see that some zegs in my replay defended the drops well but didnt prepare for the push
to the OP.... please for the love of good use punctuation and spacing. That block of text took me 3 attempts to read properly. Every 8 or so lines you need to start a new paragraph.
Other than that, very informative!
edit: formatted the block of text for easier reading below + Show Spoiler +
For my build you should go standard 10 supply but make gas before rax to get a fast factory. use your depot building scv to scout and make sure hes going FE. You should be continually pumping marines, as soon as factory is up you make starport and medivac, you should make a helllion to harass/scout and clear xelnaga towers, and hopefully get him to make alot of frontal defense and only anticipate hellion harrass after the hellion pops out you need to make a reactor add on then switch it out with your barracks to double marine production.
Once medivac pops out you should send your 6 marines and the hellion to his main to harrass and do some damage but most importantly GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES, overlords and queens are your targets here supply blocking him and reducing his queen number makes banshee harass more devastating as well as the first timing push. be smart with your drop try not to lose the marines. with your starport you should make a banshee and an armory for thors as well as throwing up your own expo. the beauty of banshees is that they allow you to secure your expo with map control until he gets mutas.
use the banshee for defense if hes being aggresive otherwise use it to once again clear watch towers and destroy his spreading creep tumors only use the banshee to attack his main if he handled your drop poorly and allowed you to kill his queens or severely weaken them. once your expo is up and running you should continue to pump thors, rines and banshees as gas allows then go for a quick push push once you have either 2 or 4 Thors. Depending on the situation i find the two thor push with all your marines and a banshee or two to be the most effective as many zergs have not yet put up a baneling nest and certainly will not have centrifugal hooks. or have any mutas out yet, allowing you to pick off the banelings before they take out your rines and scvs, spread the rines to reduce damage, if u have foxer grade marine micro or he neglects to make a baneling nest this push is absolutely devastating and ends many, MANY of my terran vs Zerg games.
if you still have your drop ship and marines you can do a two pronged attack against his main and natural as he will likely need everything he has to hold off your rines banshees and scv repaired thors and may not even notice the drop in his main, if the zerg goes muta and tries to 3rd expand its usually GG if he goes roaches and banelings with no mutas u can use your banshees and dropship/marines to harass and deny him third. Its your choice whether to stay bio mech switch to all mech or go bio for late game you have all the structures neccesary to start you off on any tech patch you choose. the replays will show more detail, enjoy My apm is only about 100 so this isnt stuff that requires incredible micro and is very viable in high diamond ive beaten cellawerra and Rigid with this build two great zerg players that have live streams here on TL. GL
On November 17 2010 01:08 emythrel wrote: to the OP.... please for the love of good use punctuation and spacing. That block of text took me 3 attempts to read properly. Every 8 or so lines you need to start a new paragraph.
Other than that, very informative!
edit: formatted the block of text for easier reading below + Show Spoiler +
For my build you should go standard 10 supply but make gas before rax to get a fast factory. use your depot building scv to scout and make sure hes going FE. You should be continually pumping marines, as soon as factory is up you make starport and medivac, you should make a helllion to harass/scout and clear xelnaga towers, and hopefully get him to make alot of frontal defense and only anticipate hellion harrass after the hellion pops out you need to make a reactor add on then switch it out with your barracks to double marine production.
Once medivac pops out you should send your 6 marines and the hellion to his main to harrass and do some damage but most importantly GET HIM TO MAKE SOMETHING BESIDES DRONES, overlords and queens are your targets here supply blocking him and reducing his queen number makes banshee harass more devastating as well as the first timing push. be smart with your drop try not to lose the marines. with your starport you should make a banshee and an armory for thors as well as throwing up your own expo. the beauty of banshees is that they allow you to secure your expo with map control until he gets mutas.
use the banshee for defense if hes being aggresive otherwise use it to once again clear watch towers and destroy his spreading creep tumors only use the banshee to attack his main if he handled your drop poorly and allowed you to kill his queens or severely weaken them. once your expo is up and running you should continue to pump thors, rines and banshees as gas allows then go for a quick push push once you have either 2 or 4 Thors. Depending on the situation i find the two thor push with all your marines and a banshee or two to be the most effective as many zergs have not yet put up a baneling nest and certainly will not have centrifugal hooks. or have any mutas out yet, allowing you to pick off the banelings before they take out your rines and scvs, spread the rines to reduce damage, if u have foxer grade marine micro or he neglects to make a baneling nest this push is absolutely devastating and ends many, MANY of my terran vs Zerg games.
if you still have your drop ship and marines you can do a two pronged attack against his main and natural as he will likely need everything he has to hold off your rines banshees and scv repaired thors and may not even notice the drop in his main, if the zerg goes muta and tries to 3rd expand its usually GG if he goes roaches and banelings with no mutas u can use your banshees and dropship/marines to harass and deny him third. Its your choice whether to stay bio mech switch to all mech or go bio for late game you have all the structures neccesary to start you off on any tech patch you choose. the replays will show more detail, enjoy My apm is only about 100 so this isnt stuff that requires incredible micro and is very viable in high diamond ive beaten cellawerra and Rigid with this build two great zerg players that have live streams here on TL. GL
On November 17 2010 00:59 KoArtist wrote: Hey pookie, have you tried using 2 tanks in your push already? Just wanted to see if you had a replay doing that.
lol i tried it once and it didnt work too well but im gonna experiment more i liek the fact that the push comes sooner than the thor one
On November 15 2010 23:20 noD wrote: Don't take this as offense, i really liked the replays and I think it was an incredibly gameplay, your just so good, but overall I dont think it's the strat that beat the opponents at all, but your micro control, and timing, for example in the cellawerra's game you get supply blocked like everytime, but micro drops and marines and hellions so well that he can't expand. Overall I don't think it's your strategy that works but the way you pull it out (altho we could call it strategy, I think it's more micro-related ... )
I'll attest that the strat is not terribly micro-dependent. In doing it perhaps 10 ten times and winning 8, the main micro challenge comes with moving your marines away from banelings. I've found, however, that with enough thors, the banelings don't even matter. With SCVs repairing you'll simply keep marching after the banes clear your marines. Thors are probably the least micro-able unit in the game.
I'm going to experiment next with getting a raven for the PDD. I have a feeling it would be even more one-sided then, as ravens can stop roach fire, too.
hmm. I stand corrected. I could have sworn I'd seen it work before, but I think that may have been patched out. I'd still consider a raven with HSM to use against mutas or banelings.
what do you do about dedicated 2 base baneling busts? Besides having to make a super wall with lots of bunkers, moving out with thors becomes a hassle since the slow army can get surrounded by ling/baneling extremely easily, not to mention if z sees army coming, he just goes mass ling banelings, which really crushes a smaller tech based army with no tanks.
hmm. I stand corrected. I could have sworn I'd seen it work before, but I think that may have been patched out. I'd still consider a raven with HSM to use against mutas or banelings.
Adding a Raven in for the 2nd push (after pushing with 2~ thors) is a great idea, if only for clearing creep. Usually by then they have mutas or often times hydras (in response to banshees) in which case PDD is great to have as well. I wouldn't bother with HSM at this point in the game there are much better choices to spend gas on, more thors/banshees, tanks, stim, upgrades, depends on what the situation calls for.
On November 21 2010 03:52 SCling wrote: what do you do about dedicated 2 base baneling busts? Besides having to make a super wall with lots of bunkers, moving out with thors becomes a hassle since the slow army can get surrounded by ling/baneling extremely easily, not to mention if z sees army coming, he just goes mass ling banelings, which really crushes a smaller tech based army with no tanks.
Xog loves to do this build against me, you can scout it pretty easily with your drops though, my response is to make an extra starport and make more banshees and constantly chase his lings around lol shit is hilarious sometimes the zergs will say the hell with it and still try the bust even with ur banshees raining down on them figuring they will still do alot of damage, just double wall in and make a thor and sit his fat ass on the ramp on hold position he will not have enough banelings to get past your thor and bust your double wall in AND have enough lings to actually do any damage, once you have enough banshees he kinda screwed even though he delayed your expo you should have still been making scvs from the command and will be able to fully saturate once his bust fails and hes now behind in economy, the alternative if you think that a zerg player will do this is to do the double hellion opening with blue flame to destroy this and straight mech afterward.
Been experimenting with this build and so far so good...
Just a few questions regarding the drop, what happens if he a mass amount of lings, gets a good surround and your hass does 0 damage? How do you change your play up from then...
Do you keep your drop ship around and try to drop when there not ready or double prong it when you attack with your main thor push.
On November 22 2010 19:04 Chiller274 wrote: @CrayonKing: Your drop should stop his drone Production. When he already got many lings it did.
Just Macro. And when you have a spare secound poke at an overlord outside the Base but dont suicide the units
exactly be on the lookout for that big two base baneling bust though. He has sacked quite a bit of economy to have so many lings so he is going to want to do some damage, you should be scouting his base with your dropship for a baneling nest and lair, if you see a baneling nest and NO lair hes going to try to bust you so you should be pumping those banshees en masse and double walling with thor sitting his big Ass on the ramp
@MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END!
@ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement.
First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG.
The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time.
In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units.
Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done.
The threat of a drop still looms in the air.
**Incoming BANSHEES**
Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**"
Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory**
Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects.
As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style.
This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in.
It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary.
The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game.
All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat.
At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level.
Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is.
PS@ChickenLips
Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote: @MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END!
@ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement.
First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG.
The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time.
In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units.
Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done.
The threat of a drop still looms in the air.
**Incoming BANSHEES**
Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**"
Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory**
Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects.
As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style.
This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in.
It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary.
The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game.
All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat.
At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level.
Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is.
Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote: @MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END!
@ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement.
First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG.
The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time.
In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units.
Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done.
The threat of a drop still looms in the air.
**Incoming BANSHEES**
Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**"
Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory**
Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects.
As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style.
This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in.
It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary.
The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game.
All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat.
At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level.
Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is.
PS@ChickenLips
Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o)
Me too :o)
Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet.
On November 22 2010 19:04 Chiller274 wrote: @CrayonKing: Your drop should stop his drone Production. When he already got many lings it did.
Just Macro. And when you have a spare secound poke at an overlord outside the Base but dont suicide the units
exactly be on the lookout for that big two base baneling bust though. He has sacked quite a bit of economy to have so many lings so he is going to want to do some damage, you should be scouting his base with your dropship for a baneling nest and lair, if you see a baneling nest and NO lair hes going to try to bust you so you should be pumping those banshees en masse and double walling with thor sitting his big Ass on the ramp
True...thanks. I just feel that this build is very dependent on that drop..sorta like iechoics where if your drop completly fails then you are very screwed. I also feel that you need to get that drop off ASAP, sometimes I loaft around macro-ing my stuff and leave my drop off till a bit later...I think the sooner you can try to do some damage the better.
Ive only tried this build a few times but as a zerg what happens if you a scouting overlord and you see this dropship leave the base and decide to get lings - that alone stops drone production but is that enough to give you the edge when you do your main push?
And i know you mentioned it but when you drop you want to aim for overlords/queens/lings etc? then drones?
On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote: @MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END!
@ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement.
First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG.
The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time.
In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units.
Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done.
The threat of a drop still looms in the air.
**Incoming BANSHEES**
Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**"
Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory**
Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects.
As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style.
This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in.
It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary.
The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game.
All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat.
At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level.
Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is.
PS@ChickenLips
Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o)
Me too :o)
Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet.
i may actually not know, when i watch the replays of guys trying this against me it becomes obvious that i delay it quite a bit, my dropship antics generally keep them in thier base for awhile and in a few games they try to change banelings outside my base only to watch my first banshee start picking off the morphing banelings one after another, in which case they cancel, run back to thier base and wait for more lings or wait for my banshees to be out of position, i dont think ive ever been hit by that two base baneling bust at the time the zerg wanted me to be hit with it.
Watched a few replays and I love how you manage to create such a diverse army that early in the game while still expanding and doing harass. I will try to make this build a part of my own portfolio.
On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote: @MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END!
@ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement.
First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG.
The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time.
In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units.
Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done.
The threat of a drop still looms in the air.
**Incoming BANSHEES**
Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**"
Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory**
Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects.
As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style.
This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in.
It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary.
The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game.
All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat.
At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level.
Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is.
PS@ChickenLips
Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o)
Me too :o)
Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet.
i may actually not know, when i watch the replays of guys trying this against me it becomes obvious that i delay it quite a bit, my dropship antics generally keep them in thier base for awhile and in a few games they try to change banelings outside my base only to watch my first banshee start picking off the morphing banelings one after another, in which case they cancel, run back to thier base and wait for more lings or wait for my banshees to be out of position, i dont think ive ever been hit by that two base baneling bust at the time the zerg wanted me to be hit with it.
Well, can you give me a replay vs 2 base baneling? I don't have time to look through all the reps. :[
On November 23 2010 18:10 osten wrote: No, you don't have 85% against zerg, nobody does. You tried to provide proof but nope, no data there.
Please don't open with a lie.... :/
That being said your strategy looks really solid and extremely dangerous to meet. Well done but yeah, try to stay honest.
the proof there was that im actually a high ranking terran, and yes immediately after the the patch for the first 2 weeks i did have a 85% win ratio against zerg cause they all played so damn recklessly doing silly one base roach builds and FE builds with like no units and just spine crawlers and a few roaches at thier nat cause they all thought the roach range was so great and didnt fear cheese from terrans anymore, im much higher rank now and zergs arent playing as dumb so i prolly have about a 65-70% win ratio against zerg.
On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote: @MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END!
@ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement.
First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG.
The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time.
In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units.
Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done.
The threat of a drop still looms in the air.
**Incoming BANSHEES**
Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**"
Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory**
Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects.
As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style.
This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in.
It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary.
The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game.
All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat.
At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level.
Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is.
PS@ChickenLips
Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o)
Me too :o)
Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet.
i may actually not know, when i watch the replays of guys trying this against me it becomes obvious that i delay it quite a bit, my dropship antics generally keep them in thier base for awhile and in a few games they try to change banelings outside my base only to watch my first banshee start picking off the morphing banelings one after another, in which case they cancel, run back to thier base and wait for more lings or wait for my banshees to be out of position, i dont think ive ever been hit by that two base baneling bust at the time the zerg wanted me to be hit with it.
Well, can you give me a replay vs 2 base baneling? I don't have time to look through all the reps. :[
yeah ill save the next one i dont usually save them cause i considered it a deviation from the standard FE zerg and no different from a one base baneling bust.
On November 22 2010 19:04 Chiller274 wrote: @CrayonKing: Your drop should stop his drone Production. When he already got many lings it did.
Just Macro. And when you have a spare secound poke at an overlord outside the Base but dont suicide the units
exactly be on the lookout for that big two base baneling bust though. He has sacked quite a bit of economy to have so many lings so he is going to want to do some damage, you should be scouting his base with your dropship for a baneling nest and lair, if you see a baneling nest and NO lair hes going to try to bust you so you should be pumping those banshees en masse and double walling with thor sitting his big Ass on the ramp
True...thanks. I just feel that this build is very dependent on that drop..sorta like iechoics where if your drop completly fails then you are very screwed. I also feel that you need to get that drop off ASAP, sometimes I loaft around macro-ing my stuff and leave my drop off till a bit later...I think the sooner you can try to do some damage the better.
Ive only tried this build a few times but as a zerg what happens if you a scouting overlord and you see this dropship leave the base and decide to get lings - that alone stops drone production but is that enough to give you the edge when you do your main push?
And i know you mentioned it but when you drop you want to aim for overlords/queens/lings etc? then drones?
Thanks for the help man
i aim for queens overlords and drones if you can get them, they usually run them to thier nat though with good dropship micro u can whittle down his lings without losing marines forcing him to build more, thats always a good strat
On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote: @MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END!
@ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement.
First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG.
The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time.
In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units.
Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done.
The threat of a drop still looms in the air.
**Incoming BANSHEES**
Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**"
Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory**
Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects.
As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style.
This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in.
It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary.
The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game.
All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat.
At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level.
Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is.
PS@ChickenLips
Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o)
Me too :o)
Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet.
i may actually not know, when i watch the replays of guys trying this against me it becomes obvious that i delay it quite a bit, my dropship antics generally keep them in thier base for awhile and in a few games they try to change banelings outside my base only to watch my first banshee start picking off the morphing banelings one after another, in which case they cancel, run back to thier base and wait for more lings or wait for my banshees to be out of position, i dont think ive ever been hit by that two base baneling bust at the time the zerg wanted me to be hit with it.
Well, can you give me a replay vs 2 base baneling? I don't have time to look through all the reps. :[
yeah ill save the next one i dont usually save them cause i considered it a deviation from the standard FE zerg and no different from a one base baneling bust.
Thanks. I'm surprised you say that since I've had zergs literally blow up everyone on my ramp before. I'm just trying to work out a banshee timing that will work against it .
This build/strategy is horribly horribly good so why spice it up and lie again? The ladder system makes sure nobody has that kind of ratio.... The proof was and still is counteractive to your claim since it gets harder if you are higher ranked. You must lose 70% vs P or T in order for it to balance up.. I just.. Okay nevermind. Just take with you that I think the build is good. I am overfocusing on your extreme exaggeration. Sorry.
This build/strategy is horribly horribly good so why spice it up and lie again? The ladder system makes sure nobody has that kind of ratio.... The proof was and still is counteractive to your claim since it gets harder if you are higher ranked. You must lose 70% vs P or T in order for it to balance up.. I just.. Okay nevermind. Just take with you that I think the build is good. I am overfocusing on your extreme exaggeration. Sorry.
On November 23 2010 18:10 osten wrote: No, you don't have 85% against zerg, nobody does....
THIS
On November 23 2010 21:57 Pookie Monster wrote:
85% win ratio against zerg
Can easily result temporarily due to THIS
On November 23 2010 21:57 Pookie Monster wrote:
zergs ... playing ... dumb
Resulting in THIS
On November 23 2010 21:57 Pookie Monster wrote:
im much higher rank now
Eventually leading to THIS
On November 23 2010 21:57 Pookie Monster wrote:
a 65-70% win ratio against zerg.
It's called "rushing" (Think in terms of poker ) where you're winning many hands/games in a short period of time due to being in the zone, opponents playing poorly, a short term mathematical anomaly (luck), or a combination of all 3. It's how I went from a mid level gold to low level diamond in a week and a half (and I'm still only 31-23, Doz.553 if you want to look)
While it's true that after 1.1.2 the zerg became pretty reckless in their play, this is also a very solid build and is something close to what I've been trying to hammer out in the little bit I've been able to play. As more time goes by since release, I'm finding it more and more valuable to have more than 2-3 different types of units on the field, and this build is an excellent example of how to do so effectively. It's costly to open up so much of the available tech, but catching an opponent off guard with a strategy like this requires your opponent to mix up his own units just as much, something that takes time to do. I never feel so completely owned as when an opponent shows up at my base with almost every available unit for his race, really feels unstoppable no matter what my unit comp. is.
On November 23 2010 22:24 osten wrote: This build/strategy is horribly horribly good so why spice it up and lie again? The ladder system makes sure nobody has that kind of ratio.... The proof was and still is counteractive to your claim since it gets harder if you are higher ranked. You must lose 70% vs P or T in order for it to balance up.. I just.. Okay nevermind. Just take with you that I think the build is good. I am overfocusing on your extreme exaggeration. Sorry.
haha i think your getting distracted by that, i prolly should remove that line as i no longer have that kind of win ratio now that im higher ranked than i was right after patch
I've been watching a crap load of the recent GSL3 games. Lots of terrans are kicking zergs butts this season.
They have ALL been using a 2 rax no gas opening before transitioning.
It would be pretty cool if we could figure out a way to incorporate the super early aggression of a 2 rax with a follow up double gas expand into drop banshee play with a thor timing push.
With that sort of opening you would also not need the reactor and you'd get the same sort of aggression as the hellion poke.
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: if u have foxer grade marine micro or he neglects to make a baneling nest this push is absolutely devastating and ends many, MANY of my terran vs Zerg games.
You have FoxeR marine micro. Baller
I currently have a TvZ build I'm 10-1 with. The only loss was because of absolutely hilarious/epic fail. But when I hit the level I start losing with it I'll definitely give this a chance although I've done fast one base drop tactics since NaDa showed them in a video years ago
On October 27 2010 22:56 Pookie Monster wrote: if u have foxer grade marine micro or he neglects to make a baneling nest this push is absolutely devastating and ends many, MANY of my terran vs Zerg games.
You have FoxeR marine micro. Baller
I currently have a TvZ build I'm 10-1 with. The only loss was because of absolutely hilarious/epic fail. But when I hit the level I start losing with it I'll definitely give this a chance although I've done fast one base drop tactics since NaDa showed them in a video years ago
On November 25 2010 05:21 jay236 wrote: Hey, I just want to add feedback to this topic since it's helped my game versus 14 hatch a lot (as opposed to just using FoxeR style rushing).
Currently I'm a 1200+ Diamond Terran consistently beating 2200+ish Diamond Zergs with this strat.
Feedback is appreciated forthe replays. I believe the game on Lost Temple had a lot of miss-micro on my part.
sorry i was away for thanksgiving or i would have replied sooner, your execution of my build is excellent, your dropship micro is very good, i typically go gas before barracks but if you find that this way works for you then thats good to, it just means your drop is later. in the lost temple game i think you pushed very late. if you pushed when you had your 2 thors you would have rolled him earlier and easier as all he had was a handful of lings and mutas and no baneling nest, luckily your rine micro forced him to waste all his banelings on your thors but be careful pushing that late as if he had got your marines instead the battle could have gone the other way. the shakuras one was spot on though and you kept the pressure up which is crucial, only thing i think you should improve on is getting your expo up sooner so you arent too far behind if the zerg handles your aggression better, other than that good Reps thanks for sharing keep squashing those bugs :o)
I like this strat a lot so far. The micro req' makes the strat' a little fragile in lag. Which sucks for me One thing I noticed is that when fighting roaches/lings it'ss best to keep ur marines behind the thors cuase they need to stay around for when mutas fly in. What are your thoughts on how the strategy progresses when the drop didn't go so well and zerg is able to marco? Rines dieing seems big for me right now.
On December 03 2010 18:23 Komsa wrote: I like this strat a lot so far. The micro req' makes the strat' a little fragile in lag. Which sucks for me One thing I noticed is that when fighting roaches/lings it'ss best to keep ur marines behind the thors cuase they need to stay around for when mutas fly in. What are your thoughts on how the strategy progresses when the drop didn't go so well and zerg is able to marco? Rines dieing seems big for me right now.
Ok after not laddering for the past 3 weeks I thought this would be the build I base my TvZ on and it's working pretty well for me. Played 5 games so far against zerg and am 3/2 with it. Both my losses were to high diamonds (1.8 and 2k from memory) and my macro realllly sucking due to lack of 1v1 play.
I'm low diamond (480ish ) so my micro/macro isn't the greatest but as I'm playing the build more and getting more comfortable with it I'm really finding it's a lot of fun (and can see my being more successful with it as I keep practicing).
This is my latest game with it against a high Plat player and the replay really shows the power of that early drop and how bad it can affect their game.
On December 07 2010 22:22 MasterFischer wrote: How does this build do now that scvs are owned on PTR?
Lings and banelings will fkin annhilate thors + scvs now..
bainshees get cut open by queens and spores + hydra..
What do you do when he has mass ling/baneling and muta against ur stuff?
Marines melt, scvs melt, thors cantr do shit against mass lings, in comes maybe also muta and roaches to clean up..
and gg ;D?
suggestionS?
i have some great games recently to show how badly you need preignitor hellions after your first push for this build to be effective i dont have time to post now gotta go to work but look for them later
So this build is pretty sweet. I'm 2300 diamond and this is my standard tvz strat and has been for ages, and wins me heaps of tvz games as well. Thanks for the build Pookie
Since someone already bumped this topic to the top, I figured I might also post here. I am on my work lunch break, growing very eager to try this build out when I get home. As you can see from another thread created by me, TvZ is my absolute worst matchup, and I seem to have no stable build to go by. Lately my strat has been, "Make some marines, marauders, tanks and hellions, throw them at Zerg, hope to win." Of course I don't win.
Versus Terran and Protoss I have a set build I do every single game, and it branches depending on what the Opponent does. As it should. Versus Zerg, it is quite random. I'm second guessing the entire game what my opponent is building and what I should be building.
Based on the replays from Pookie and others, I see the TvZ matchup much clearer now. I see the units Zerg responds with, I see the interactions between Pookie's build and the opponent's. I have 120 APM non-battle. (140-200 battle) and I feel I could pull something like this off. I will be testing the build order versus AI when I get home just to get comfortable with the orders and timings. And I hope to post here when I have some success with it. Banshee and Thor are extremely powerful, and the high DPS of marines to beautify this build makes it a threatening force.
I must ask, with the past few patches, has anything changed in this build? I See the topic was created many months ago and wonder what has happened in the metagame to counter this sort of TvZ play?
Pookie, I dont get why in all ur games u get 2 more rax and get more marines. Zerg will almost always goes for banelings, isnt getting mauraders a better idea?
On February 05 2011 19:39 vahgar.r24 wrote: Pookie, I dont get why in all ur games u get 2 more rax and get more marines. Zerg will almost always goes for banelings, isnt getting mauraders a better idea?
On January 25 2011 09:28 RukKus wrote: Since someone already bumped this topic to the top, I figured I might also post here. I am on my work lunch break, growing very eager to try this build out when I get home. As you can see from another thread created by me, TvZ is my absolute worst matchup, and I seem to have no stable build to go by. Lately my strat has been, "Make some marines, marauders, tanks and hellions, throw them at Zerg, hope to win." Of course I don't win.
Versus Terran and Protoss I have a set build I do every single game, and it branches depending on what the Opponent does. As it should. Versus Zerg, it is quite random. I'm second guessing the entire game what my opponent is building and what I should be building.
Based on the replays from Pookie and others, I see the TvZ matchup much clearer now. I see the units Zerg responds with, I see the interactions between Pookie's build and the opponent's. I have 120 APM non-battle. (140-200 battle) and I feel I could pull something like this off. I will be testing the build order versus AI when I get home just to get comfortable with the orders and timings. And I hope to post here when I have some success with it. Banshee and Thor are extremely powerful, and the high DPS of marines to beautify this build makes it a threatening force.
I must ask, with the past few patches, has anything changed in this build? I See the topic was created many months ago and wonder what has happened in the metagame to counter this sort of TvZ play?
Thanks so much Pookie for your contribution!
i didnt realize people were still commenting on this thread ive changed this build somewhat as i now almost always do a two pronged attack with just one thor and my loaded medivac the thor hits the natural and the marine drop for the main it usually gives me a significant lead if i dont win outright, i also get to see his entire unit composition and tech at the same time.
I'm still using this build as one of my main tvz strats.
The most common problem I encounter whilst using this build is a ling bling muta mix, and multiple queens (which were build to fend off my banshees). ling bling run in and kill off all my marines and repairing scvs (even though I run back). After that, queens and mutas (magic boxed) kill my thors and the mutas are left to go to work on my banshees.
I was wondering Pookie, if u have the time, can u tell me how you deal with this sort of unit mix? Also, if u lose ur push to this unit mix, how do you follow up? I read somewhere u mentioned blue hellions. Is this the follow up u use for a baneling response?
Also, I'd be really interested in seeing how exactly u have changed the build and how u execute it now.
On February 05 2011 19:39 vahgar.r24 wrote: Pookie, I dont get why in all ur games u get 2 more rax and get more marines. Zerg will almost always goes for banelings, isnt getting mauraders a better idea?
I'll trade 50/0 marines for 75/25 banelings, delaying his tech and droning any day of the week.
On February 05 2011 19:39 vahgar.r24 wrote: Pookie, I dont get why in all ur games u get 2 more rax and get more marines. Zerg will almost always goes for banelings, isnt getting mauraders a better idea?
I'll trade 50/0 marines for 75/25 banelings, delaying his tech and droning any day of the week.
Banelings are 25 for a single ling and 25 minerals / 25 gas for banelings...
EPT
Guess I can't be such a greedy hatch-first-no-questions-asked kinda guy anymore.
I can tell you from watching a lot of high level games that you WILL have a lot of trouble against early roach play. The hellion does nothing vs roaches and the medivac equally does nothing due to the high and focused base damage of the roaches. So you basically have 7 marines against 7 roaches in this example.
Zerg player here! Especially the part about putting him under pressure to deny his 3rd, because in the first replay thats what really kept you alive. You can really see later how you just outmacro him badly basically because his third base is soooo late and he has way less worker than he should have. I like this alot because most of the Ts thought about just killing the Z with two base and if that didnt go well then....well there wasnt a plan B.
