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On November 21 2010 03:52 SCling wrote:
what do you do about dedicated 2 base baneling busts? Besides having to make a super wall with lots of bunkers, moving out with thors becomes a hassle since the slow army can get surrounded by ling/baneling extremely easily, not to mention if z sees army coming, he just goes mass ling banelings, which really crushes a smaller tech based army with no tanks.
Xog loves to do this build against me, you can scout it pretty easily with your drops though, my response is to make an extra starport and make more banshees and constantly chase his lings around lol shit is hilarious sometimes the zergs will say the hell with it and still try the bust even with ur banshees raining down on them figuring they will still do alot of damage, just double wall in and make a thor and sit his fat ass on the ramp on hold position he will not have enough banelings to get past your thor and bust your double wall in AND have enough lings to actually do any damage, once you have enough banshees he kinda screwed even though he delayed your expo you should have still been making scvs from the command and will be able to fully saturate once his bust fails and hes now behind in economy, the alternative if you think that a zerg player will do this is to do the double hellion opening with blue flame to destroy this and straight mech afterward.
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Been experimenting with this build and so far so good...
Just a few questions regarding the drop, what happens if he a mass amount of lings, gets a good surround and your hass does 0 damage? How do you change your play up from then...
Do you keep your drop ship around and try to drop when there not ready or double prong it when you attack with your main thor push.
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@CrayonKing: Your drop should stop his drone Production. When he already got many lings it did.
Just Macro. And when you have a spare secound poke at an overlord outside the Base but dont suicide the units
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On November 22 2010 19:04 Chiller274 wrote:
@CrayonKing: Your drop should stop his drone Production. When he already got many lings it did.
Just Macro. And when you have a spare secound poke at an overlord outside the Base but dont suicide the units
exactly be on the lookout for that big two base baneling bust though. He has sacked quite a bit of economy to have so many lings so he is going to want to do some damage, you should be scouting his base with your dropship for a baneling nest and lair, if you see a baneling nest and NO lair hes going to try to bust you so you should be pumping those banshees en masse and double walling with thor sitting his big Ass on the ramp
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FOR the RECORD.
Ravens cant stop fkin PDD fire..
EVER.
The End :D
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@MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END!
@ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement.
First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG.
The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time.
In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units.
Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two.
Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done.
The threat of a drop still looms in the air.
**Incoming BANSHEES**
Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**"
Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory**
Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects.
As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style.
This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech.
With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in.
2 pronged 18 marine 5scv 2 thor 3 banshee timing attack / 6 marine drop.
It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary.
The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push.
Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game.
All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker.
Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat.
At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level.
Thanks Pookie keep it up!
Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is.
PS@ChickenLips
Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible.
Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
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so.. is this thread proof that Terran needs to be further nerfed cos it's too op & imba?
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On November 23 2010 10:06 iamtheone wrote:
so.. is this thread proof that Terran needs to be further nerfed cos it's too op & imba?
Lol don't even go there, balance is not the question, just the fact that if a zerg feels like droning 60 drones and no units they can be punished...
The end.
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On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote:@MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END! @ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement. First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG. The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time. In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units. Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done. The threat of a drop still looms in the air. **Incoming BANSHEES** Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**" Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory** Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects. As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style. This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in. 2 pronged 18 marine 5scv 2 thor 3 banshee timing attack / 6 marine drop. It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary. The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game. All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat. At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level. Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is. PS@ChickenLips Show nested quote +Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible. Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop.
this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o)
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On November 23 2010 13:27 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote:@MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END! @ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement. First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG. The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time. In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units. Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done. The threat of a drop still looms in the air. **Incoming BANSHEES** Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**" Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory** Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects. As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style. This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in. 2 pronged 18 marine 5scv 2 thor 3 banshee timing attack / 6 marine drop. It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary. The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game. All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat. At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level. Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is. PS@ChickenLips Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible. Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop. this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o)
Me too :o)
Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet.
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On November 22 2010 23:12 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2010 19:04 Chiller274 wrote:
@CrayonKing: Your drop should stop his drone Production. When he already got many lings it did.
Just Macro. And when you have a spare secound poke at an overlord outside the Base but dont suicide the units exactly be on the lookout for that big two base baneling bust though. He has sacked quite a bit of economy to have so many lings so he is going to want to do some damage, you should be scouting his base with your dropship for a baneling nest and lair, if you see a baneling nest and NO lair hes going to try to bust you so you should be pumping those banshees en masse and double walling with thor sitting his big Ass on the ramp
True...thanks. I just feel that this build is very dependent on that drop..sorta like iechoics where if your drop completly fails then you are very screwed. I also feel that you need to get that drop off ASAP, sometimes I loaft around macro-ing my stuff and leave my drop off till a bit later...I think the sooner you can try to do some damage the better.
Ive only tried this build a few times but as a zerg what happens if you a scouting overlord and you see this dropship leave the base and decide to get lings - that alone stops drone production but is that enough to give you the edge when you do your main push?
And i know you mentioned it but when you drop you want to aim for overlords/queens/lings etc? then drones?
Thanks for the help man
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On November 23 2010 13:32 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 13:27 Pookie Monster wrote:On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote:@MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END! @ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement. First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG. The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time. In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units. Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done. The threat of a drop still looms in the air. **Incoming BANSHEES** Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**" Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory** Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects. As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style. This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in. 2 pronged 18 marine 5scv 2 thor 3 banshee timing attack / 6 marine drop. It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary. The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game. All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat. At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level. Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is. PS@ChickenLips Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible. Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop. this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o) Me too :o) Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet.
i may actually not know, when i watch the replays of guys trying this against me it becomes obvious that i delay it quite a bit, my dropship antics generally keep them in thier base for awhile and in a few games they try to change banelings outside my base only to watch my first banshee start picking off the morphing banelings one after another, in which case they cancel, run back to thier base and wait for more lings or wait for my banshees to be out of position, i dont think ive ever been hit by that two base baneling bust at the time the zerg wanted me to be hit with it.
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Watched a few replays and I love how you manage to create such a diverse army that early in the game while still expanding and doing harass. I will try to make this build a part of my own portfolio.
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No, you don't have 85% against zerg, nobody does. You tried to provide proof but nope, no data there.
Please don't open with a lie.... :/
That being said your strategy looks really solid and extremely dangerous to meet. Well done but yeah, try to stay honest.
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On November 23 2010 14:13 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 13:32 Antisocialmunky wrote:On November 23 2010 13:27 Pookie Monster wrote:On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote:@MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END! @ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement. First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG. The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time. In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units. Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done. The threat of a drop still looms in the air. **Incoming BANSHEES** Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**" Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory** Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects. As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style. This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in. 2 pronged 18 marine 5scv 2 thor 3 banshee timing attack / 6 marine drop. It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary. The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game. All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat. At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level. Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is. PS@ChickenLips Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible. Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop. this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o) Me too :o) Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet. i may actually not know, when i watch the replays of guys trying this against me it becomes obvious that i delay it quite a bit, my dropship antics generally keep them in thier base for awhile and in a few games they try to change banelings outside my base only to watch my first banshee start picking off the morphing banelings one after another, in which case they cancel, run back to thier base and wait for more lings or wait for my banshees to be out of position, i dont think ive ever been hit by that two base baneling bust at the time the zerg wanted me to be hit with it.
Well, can you give me a replay vs 2 base baneling? I don't have time to look through all the reps. :[
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On November 23 2010 18:10 osten wrote:
No, you don't have 85% against zerg, nobody does. You tried to provide proof but nope, no data there.
Please don't open with a lie.... :/
That being said your strategy looks really solid and extremely dangerous to meet. Well done but yeah, try to stay honest.
the proof there was that im actually a high ranking terran, and yes immediately after the the patch for the first 2 weeks i did have a 85% win ratio against zerg cause they all played so damn recklessly doing silly one base roach builds and FE builds with like no units and just spine crawlers and a few roaches at thier nat cause they all thought the roach range was so great and didnt fear cheese from terrans anymore, im much higher rank now and zergs arent playing as dumb so i prolly have about a 65-70% win ratio against zerg.
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On November 23 2010 21:26 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 14:13 Pookie Monster wrote:On November 23 2010 13:32 Antisocialmunky wrote:On November 23 2010 13:27 Pookie Monster wrote:On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote:@MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END! @ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement. First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG. The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time. In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units. Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done. The threat of a drop still looms in the air. **Incoming BANSHEES** Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**" Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory** Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects. As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style. This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in. 2 pronged 18 marine 5scv 2 thor 3 banshee timing attack / 6 marine drop. It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary. The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game. All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat. At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level. Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is. PS@ChickenLips Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible. Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop. this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o) Me too :o) Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet. i may actually not know, when i watch the replays of guys trying this against me it becomes obvious that i delay it quite a bit, my dropship antics generally keep them in thier base for awhile and in a few games they try to change banelings outside my base only to watch my first banshee start picking off the morphing banelings one after another, in which case they cancel, run back to thier base and wait for more lings or wait for my banshees to be out of position, i dont think ive ever been hit by that two base baneling bust at the time the zerg wanted me to be hit with it. Well, can you give me a replay vs 2 base baneling? I don't have time to look through all the reps. :[
yeah ill save the next one i dont usually save them cause i considered it a deviation from the standard FE zerg and no different from a one base baneling bust.
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On November 23 2010 13:36 CrayonKing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2010 23:12 Pookie Monster wrote:On November 22 2010 19:04 Chiller274 wrote:
@CrayonKing: Your drop should stop his drone Production. When he already got many lings it did.
Just Macro. And when you have a spare secound poke at an overlord outside the Base but dont suicide the units exactly be on the lookout for that big two base baneling bust though. He has sacked quite a bit of economy to have so many lings so he is going to want to do some damage, you should be scouting his base with your dropship for a baneling nest and lair, if you see a baneling nest and NO lair hes going to try to bust you so you should be pumping those banshees en masse and double walling with thor sitting his big Ass on the ramp True...thanks. I just feel that this build is very dependent on that drop..sorta like iechoics where if your drop completly fails then you are very screwed. I also feel that you need to get that drop off ASAP, sometimes I loaft around macro-ing my stuff and leave my drop off till a bit later...I think the sooner you can try to do some damage the better. Ive only tried this build a few times but as a zerg what happens if you a scouting overlord and you see this dropship leave the base and decide to get lings - that alone stops drone production but is that enough to give you the edge when you do your main push? And i know you mentioned it but when you drop you want to aim for overlords/queens/lings etc? then drones? Thanks for the help man
i aim for queens overlords and drones if you can get them, they usually run them to thier nat though with good dropship micro u can whittle down his lings without losing marines forcing him to build more, thats always a good strat
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On November 23 2010 21:59 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 21:26 Antisocialmunky wrote:On November 23 2010 14:13 Pookie Monster wrote:On November 23 2010 13:32 Antisocialmunky wrote:On November 23 2010 13:27 Pookie Monster wrote:On November 23 2010 09:55 Jengo wrote:@MasterFischer: Dude i don't think fkin PDD's fire at anything. EVER. THE END! @ChickenLips: TrollFACE. You guy are the biggest troll in the world. You provide zero valid points to this thread. Your input is completely useless and as waste of my eye movement. First I'd like you to look for the old IdrA v Silver replay. These replays include the famous "apologize for playing that race" quote. Silver uses a very similar build with a strong 2 thor SCV timing push. Classic IdrA build, "10 mutas" as you said a zerg playing "LIKE IdrA", would have. The mutas harass, the push comes and the classic IdrA RAGE QUIT no GG. The 6marine hellion drop comes at a time when zerg has completed 2 spine crawlers, has 2 queens up and possibly 2 more on the way. It comes before the traditional 7 minute overlord sac and comes at a time when zerg and terran are still close in harvester count. This is the time an unpressured zerg would tech to mutas and drone pump to 45-50 drones. As terran is expanding it is very necessary for zerg to get critical mass of drones at this time. In comes the drop. Zerg spends next larva inject on units. Zerg has fought off the drop may have lost an overlord, or a queen maybe a drone or two. Who cares how much damage it does. The damage of 1 round of larva inject not spent on drones is done. The threat of a drop still looms in the air. **Incoming BANSHEES** Zerg doesn't panic. Cloak may be on its way. Dropship could still be waiting out there. "Should I counter attack all in? No no, drones queens, **Spore crawler or Overseer.**" Banshees attack don't do much damage no cloak on the way. "I'm ok I'm ok, Terran must be expanding." Scout**Overlord sac- sees the expansion- sees armory** Zerg either decides to build units or drones with the next set of larva injects. As the zergs economy is still relatively even with the terran at this point, 30scvs + 2 mules = 40- 45 drones, the timing push hammers the nails in the coffin of the late game macro play style. This is the time when Zerg should pull ahead in economy and catches up in tech. With this push the zerg is heavily hindered in his ability to get that "money" number of drones and a third base. The tech may be up but now they are dedicated to a two base all in. 2 pronged 18 marine 5scv 2 thor 3 banshee timing attack / 6 marine drop. It is extremely difficult to deal with two pronged attacks at any level up until pro level. Being able to on the fly divide forces and send the perfect amount so either set of defenders is not overrun while being attacked is incredibly scary. The zerg is forced to spend at least the next 2 minutes building units to fend off this push. Thats two solid minutes of lost drone production, and lost mining time. I believe that this timing push is the timing that allows terran to pull ahead in economy and in the end win the macro game. All in all I feel like this build combines the perfect amount of harass with a great timing push. I noticed several times in the replays that the armory went down late because he was heavily focused on drop ship micro which delayed the push making it look slightly later and weaker. Don't let these mistakes cloud your judgement on how strong this build is. Perfectly executed this build is incredibly difficult to beat. At a time when terran has huge difficulty dealing with Zerg endgame macro and win percentages are beginning to show favor to zerg the fact that we have a Terran with two 2400 profiles, sitting this week in the top 200, that is generous enough to share his time, builds, and theory is very respectable and people should try to help develop this build and this player as well as other aspiring to play at that level. Thanks Pookie keep it up! Sorry this post is so long I just felt like ranting constructively. I hope it is. PS@ChickenLips Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible. Insulting IEchoic and AntiSocialmunky, after they have spent hours developing guides for people and answering questions for lowbies when you yourself have zero credibility, no posted guides or replays, and spend all your time trolling peoples work is highly offensive. Please stop. this made me feel all warm and fuzzy :o) Me too :o) Here is a random question. When does the bust for a well executed 2 base all-in hit usually? I'm not sure if you can have both a Thor and a large banshee fleet. i may actually not know, when i watch the replays of guys trying this against me it becomes obvious that i delay it quite a bit, my dropship antics generally keep them in thier base for awhile and in a few games they try to change banelings outside my base only to watch my first banshee start picking off the morphing banelings one after another, in which case they cancel, run back to thier base and wait for more lings or wait for my banshees to be out of position, i dont think ive ever been hit by that two base baneling bust at the time the zerg wanted me to be hit with it. Well, can you give me a replay vs 2 base baneling? I don't have time to look through all the reps. :[ yeah ill save the next one i dont usually save them cause i considered it a deviation from the standard FE zerg and no different from a one base baneling bust.
Thanks. I'm surprised you say that since I've had zergs literally blow up everyone on my ramp before. I'm just trying to work out a banshee timing that will work against it  .
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This build/strategy is horribly horribly good so why spice it up and lie again? The ladder system makes sure nobody has that kind of ratio.... The proof was and still is counteractive to your claim since it gets harder if you are higher ranked. You must lose 70% vs P or T in order for it to balance up.. I just.. Okay nevermind. Just take with you that I think the build is good. I am overfocusing on your extreme exaggeration. Sorry.
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EPT
