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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
So it starts out basically like the iEchoic TvP build? -10 Depot -12 Gas -13 Rax -> Infinite Marines -16 OC -Factory -> Hellions Harass with Hellions - SP -> Medivac + Heptadrop with Hellion + Marines - Tech Labs on Factory + SP - Armory Build Banshees and Thors. Move out at 4 Thors? | ||
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KoArtist
Colombia23 Posts
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Malminos
United States321 Posts
On October 27 2010 23:34 Yaotzin wrote: The most important piece of advice in any vZ matchup. I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
On November 12 2010 11:53 Antisocialmunky wrote: This is a pretty interesting gameplay style that is great to watch. Only criticism is that your OP needs reorganization. It is hard to decipher the exact build. So it starts out basically like the iEchoic TvP build? -10 Depot -12 Gas -13 Rax -> Infinite Marines -16 OC -Factory -> Hellions Harass with Hellions - SP -> Medivac + Heptadrop with Hellion + Marines - Tech Labs on Factory + SP - Armory Build Banshees and Thors. Move out at 4 Thors? yeah i forgot to put in the part about having a reactor add on to the fact that switches out with the barracks but in the OP i stated you should push out with two thors and the shitload of marines u have been making since your barracks was up as well as the two banshees and medivac you should have at this point with this timing u can hit right as hes getting mutas out which means u dont have to play defense and sometimes i dont need to make turrets at all cause he immediately has to pull his mutas back to his base to defend | ||
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KoArtist
Colombia23 Posts
I also like the push right before mutas, because I hate mutas.The losses Ive had have been due to not reacting well to roach pressure or allowing my marine force to get destroyed by banes, and then mutas magix-boxing my thors. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
On November 13 2010 02:43 KoArtist wrote: Hey Pookie, this strat is helping me out quite a bit. I was getting dismantled when using marine heavy, FE type builds. This is more my style. I enjoy the fast drop. What amount of damage should one aim at doing with this? I also like the push right before mutas, because I hate mutas.The losses Ive had have been due to not reacting well to roach pressure or allowing my marine force to get destroyed by banes, and then mutas magix-boxing my thors. Heres the thing that many people overlook, that first drop doesnt actually have to do much damage, lets say you drop his base only kill an overload and he retreats all his units to his spine crawlers at his natural then busts out a crapload of lings and repels your drop. U can bet your ass that all those lings he just made would have been drones otherwise, your forcing him to use his larva to have a mobile army at a time when he would rather have an absurd economy, your also disrupting his larva injects, ive had zergs send thier two or three queens to fend the drop and just transfuse eachother. GREAT now he has less mana for larva injects and creep tumors which will get VERY annoying when u send that first banshee to destroy whatever creep tumor he does spit out or force more transfusions by attacking a lone queen, he might retaliate by making more queens, GREAT now he has less minerals for lings/muta/roaches to deal with your thor push and you can laugh as his 4 queens get focused down effortlessly by your thors and marines. if your opponent is FEing And going for early roach pressure he very likely will NOT have ling speed before you have a banshee out, what this means is that with your first hellion you should clear the lethargic lings at watch towers and take them yourself with an scv if you see roaches comming before you drop his base put up a bunker and if its a significant number of roaches rather than just two like some zergs like to do then leave your drop in your base to defend, its ok since hes sacrificing larva and economy to be aggressive, just counter his push, get your banshee out then go ahead and drop his main when you feel like you have things under control. if your opponent is going heavy muta with banelings you should not push out a second time until you have +2 attack on your thors this allows thors to two shot mutas, this is a VERY important upgrade if your going mech vs zerg as it makes mutas far less cost effective vs your thors even with magic box, and god forbid he miss micro his mutas -_- u should also have a a raven or two for pdd and should not be making banshees if he has chosen to go muta baneling only, ravens are key here. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
On November 12 2010 15:24 Malminos wrote: I find building an additional, 3rd hatch in main to aid in having enough production to deal with these sorts of shenanigans. i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On November 14 2010 04:12 Pookie Monster wrote: i dont think that third hatch would come up soon enough to deal with my first drop and would only ensure you have almost no units I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway. It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play. Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
On November 14 2010 04:47 ChickenLips wrote: I really don't understand why that 6 marine 1 hellion drop is such a big deal. 12 Speedlings and 2 queens hold it with almost no losses while the Zerg happily drones and techs away. Also the 2 thor push you did against CellaWerra was super all in. When you left your 2 bases you had exactly 13 SCVs mining minerals. Good Zergs will scout you moving out and have a shitton of either roach ling / ling muta or roach ling baneling ready. I imagine your banshee harass catches quite a few Zergs off guard but all you do is make them queue up some mineral only queens to fight you gas and starport time intensive banshees. Also queens are great for creep spread and are needed for additional hatcheries anyway. It sound like a nice harassy build order. However if the Zerg knows what's coming he will have absolutely _zero_ problems fighting it off. You're basically relying on the fact that the Zerg doesn't scout and drone whore into oblivion against 1 base play. Also I don't understand why people never pull drones when they see their opponent bringing workers. lol you make it sound so easy, if the zerg has 12 speedlings out when my drop comes then he isnt "happily droning away" hes making lings duh and with good dropship micro u can slowly pick off the lings anyway forcing him to make more, against cellawerra i sent that many scvs cause i knew he didnt have a baneling nest or even a large number of lings, he was wasnt very far ahead in economy due to my drop harrassment so i could afford to send more scvs than usual to make my thors more cost effecient i dont get how having a expo up dropping constant mules and making scvs makes my push "super all-in" just cause i sent 8 with my attack, scv repaired thors are ALWAYS a good idea. i have no more than 2 banshees when i push and i dont invest in cloak so its not really a big deal if i cant do much harrassment in his main with them, if the zerg goes for a strong roach/ling push early then banshees are the only way you can get your expo up, this build is all about good options and good ratios. Oh and BTW cellawerra played me immediately before the game where i beat him and i did the EXACT same build order but with better micro as he coached me to do in the beginning, so dont give me that bs that since the zerg knows its comming it isnt going to be effective. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On November 14 2010 05:05 Pookie Monster wrote: lol you make it sound so easy, if the zerg has 12 speedlings out when my drop comes then he isnt "happily droning away" hes making lings duh and with good dropship micro u can slowly pick off the lings anyway forcing him to make more, against cellawerra i sent that many scvs cause i knew he didnt have a baneling nest or even a large number of lings, he was wasnt very far ahead in economy due to my drop harrassment so i could afford to send more scvs than usual to make my thors more cost effecient i dont get how having a expo up dropping constant mules and making scvs makes my push "super all-in" just cause i sent 8 with my attack, scv repaired thors are ALWAYS a good idea. i have no more than 2 banshees when i push and i dont invest in cloak so its not really a big deal if i cant do much harrassment in his main with them, if the zerg goes for a strong roach/ling push early then banshees are the only way you can get your expo up, this build is all about good options and good ratios. Oh and BTW cellawerra played me immediately before the game where i beat him and i did the EXACT same build order but with better micro as he coached me to do in the beginning, so dont give me that bs that since the zerg knows its comming it isnt going to be effective. I'm gonna ignore your childish attitude and respond to what actually concerns the strategy. If Cella knew that strategy was coming he reacted completely wrong to it. Why the fuck would you make 7 roaches to try to bust a Terran without speedlings? It's completely senseless and I've never seen it work against a good opponent that early in the game. He sacrificed A LOT of early economy by first of all stopping mining a few times since he stupidly sent all his slow-ass forces around the map, thus not having any defense. I'd just get 3 queens, ling speed and quick tech to lair while weighing drones / lings by how much agression I feel is coming. Why would you even open roaches vs T? I don't see ANY reason to do it. Roaches suck vs Terran bio. I also don't know why he's trying to be so agressive over cross positions. Roaches take FOREVER to get over the map allowing you to get 20 bunkers up if you please. Oh yeah and 12 speedlings is nothing against 1 base play. It's almost the most economical 1 base response there is. Against a blue flame hellion drop or just reactor hellions or 3-rax stim push you have to get A LOT more + they actually can kill drones if prepared for, much to the contrary of your 6 marine 1 hellion drop. Zerg can just right click his lings on your dropship and then pick off your marines as they come out of the dropship one by one. You don't even have stim so they are even less threatening. You don't see how sacrificing your economy for a push is all-in? 13 workers on minerals 13 minutes into the game... If Zerg stops your push you are essientally out of the game. You have no forces, and you will never be able to take your 3rd against Zerg since you simply can't reproduce units at the rate a non-crippled Zerg can with your weakened economy. Also 4 banelings could clear all the SCVs surrounding the thors while also softening them up. He just attack moved his roaches. No wonder he's gonna get rolled by that attack. Point is, he played very poorly and if you try this build against someone who plays ZvT like idra does you're gonna get rolled since 10 mutas will easily be out by the time your 2 thor push comes in and past that you have lost all map control and initiative in the game. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
On November 14 2010 06:04 ChickenLips wrote: I'm gonna ignore your childish attitude and respond to what actually concerns the strategy. If Cella knew that strategy was coming he reacted completely wrong to it. Why the fuck would you make 7 roaches to try to bust a Terran without speedlings? It's completely senseless and I've never seen it work against a good opponent that early in the game. He sacrificed A LOT of early economy by first of all stopping mining a few times since he stupidly sent all his slow-ass forces around the map, thus not having any defense. I'd just get 3 queens, ling speed and quick tech to lair while weighing drones / lings by how much agression I feel is coming. Why would you even open roaches vs T? I don't see ANY reason to do it. Roaches suck vs Terran bio. I also don't know why he's trying to be so agressive over cross positions. Roaches take FOREVER to get over the map allowing you to get 20 bunkers up if you please. Oh yeah and 12 speedlings is nothing against 1 base play. It's almost the most economical 1 base response there is. Against a blue flame hellion drop or just reactor hellions or 3-rax stim push you have to get A LOT more + they actually can kill drones if prepared for, much to the contrary of your 6 marine 1 hellion drop. Zerg can just right click his lings on your dropship and then pick off your marines as they come out of the dropship one by one. You don't even have stim so they are even less threatening. You don't see how sacrificing your economy for a push is all-in? 13 workers on minerals 13 minutes into the game... If Zerg stops your push you are essientally out of the game. You have no forces, and you will never be able to take your 3rd against Zerg since you simply can't reproduce units at the rate a non-crippled Zerg can with your weakened economy. Also 4 banelings could clear all the SCVs surrounding the thors while also softening them up. He just attack moved his roaches. No wonder he's gonna get rolled by that attack. Point is, he played very poorly and if you try this build against someone who plays ZvT like idra does you're gonna get rolled since 10 mutas will easily be out by the time your 2 thor push comes in and past that you have lost all map control and initiative in the game. LOL your a funny guy and your the same guy that send the zerg player would have 10 roaches when i only have 4 marines haha, its like u only say what sounds good at the moment, go read your earlier posts on my thread genius. you rant and rave about how bad my build would get owned by early roach pressure at my front then when u see me hold off early roach pressure at my front you blast the zerg player as being dumb for sending roaches -_- I already mention i didnt see a baneling nest which is why i sent extra scvs knowing they are effective with thors against roaches in smaller numbers without baneling support, so you respond by saying im dumb for sending extra scvs cause he can kill them with four banelings -_- You then end your reply by saying i would get beat by someone who plays at Idras level, hes one of the best Zerg players in the world, is that a compliment or what? cause i certainly dont profess to be at Idras level | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On November 14 2010 07:22 Pookie Monster wrote: LOL your a funny guy and your the same guy that send the zerg player would have 10 roaches when i only have 4 marines haha, its like u only say what sounds good at the moment, go read your earlier posts on my thread genius. you rant and rave about how bad my build would get owned by early roach pressure at my front then when u see me hold off early roach pressure at my front you blast the zerg player as being dumb for sending roaches -_- I already mention i didnt see a baneling nest which is why i sent extra scvs knowing they are effective with thors against roaches in smaller numbers without baneling support, so you respond by saying im dumb for sending extra scvs cause he can kill them with four banelings -_- You then end your reply by saying i would get beat by someone who plays at Idras level, hes one of the best Zerg players in the world, is that a compliment or what? cause i certainly dont profess to be at Idras level Yeah I used to think roaches were good in ZvT, but they arent. At least not as an opener and early agression is pretty laughable anyway for Zerg. Ok ignoring that banelings murder SCVs. Even if he has no banelings nest, I dont think sacrificing economy is a good play. And yeah, you should probably read my post again, I said against someone who plays ZvT LIKE IdrA. It's pretty obvious that IdrA would shred your using this build. Anyway. Against 1 base play a Zerg will have 1-2 spine crawlers and a good amount of speedlings, because 1 base play is ALWAYS agression. You're doing no damage against that build and you are economically far behind. The only good thing is that at the moment most zerg as they see an expansion feel like they HAVE to only make drones for the next 3 minutes and that's when you hit with your 2 thor push. My point stands. I think there are much more abusive and much stronger 1 base plays out there. Since if Z just hangs back against this playstyle and reacts occirdingly he will come out ahead. edit: oh yeah and this BO has absolutely nothing to do with Z FE. What would punish that is early 2 rax play as shown by BoxeR. This push hits after any disadvantage of a 10-20 hatch has dissappeared and might try to punish 2 base play. But anything that isn't early 2 base play by Zerg is crap anyway. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
On November 14 2010 07:34 ChickenLips wrote: Yeah I used to think roaches were good in ZvT, but they arent. At least not as an opener and early agression is pretty laughable anyway for Zerg. Ok ignoring that banelings murder SCVs. Even if he has no banelings nest, I dont think sacrificing economy is a good play. And yeah, you should probably read my post again, I said against someone who plays ZvT LIKE IdrA. It's pretty obvious that IdrA would shred your using this build. Anyway. Against 1 base play a Zerg will have 1-2 spine crawlers and a good amount of speedlings, because 1 base play is ALWAYS agression. You're doing no damage against that build and you are economically far behind. The only good thing is that at the moment most zerg as they see an expansion feel like they HAVE to only make drones for the next 3 minutes and that's when you hit with your 2 thor push. My point stands. I think there are much more abusive and much stronger 1 base plays out there. Since if Z just hangs back against this playstyle and reacts occirdingly he will come out ahead. edit: oh yeah and this BO has absolutely nothing to do with Z FE. What would punish that is early 2 rax play as shown by BoxeR. This push hits after any disadvantage of a 10-20 hatch has dissappeared and might try to punish 2 base play. But anything that isn't early 2 base play by Zerg is crap anyway. Idra would shred me using any build lol, there isnt an autobeat Idra build where someone who isnt a tournament level player can beat him just by using that build. i think your being too harsh for no reason. i feel like fast expo builds suck ass vs zerg, and i feel far more comfortable staying on one base long enough to make sure i can properly secure it vs whatever he throws at me. your talking from a zergs point of view saying OMG i could beat this build easily if i encountered it, yet i havent seen a terran player come on this thread and say i tried your build and still get rolled all the time by zerg, ive only gotten positive feedback from terrans who were having trouble against zerg and are doing better now using this build. Why come on a thread and basically say "if the zerg player is really good and holds off all your aggression and plays very well he will beat you" cant you say that about any build? You say that my zerg opponents made mistakes that i exploited which is why i beat them? No shit? isnt that how every game is won? can you point me to the threads with the builds that you say are more abusive against zerg id love to see them | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On November 14 2010 08:04 Pookie Monster wrote: Idra would shred me using any build lol, there isnt an autobeat Idra build where someone who isnt a tournament level player can beat him just by using that build. i think your being too harsh for no reason. i feel like fast expo builds suck ass vs zerg, and i feel far more comfortable staying on one base long enough to make sure i can properly secure it vs whatever he throws at me. your talking from a zergs point of view saying OMG i could beat this build easily if i encountered it, yet i havent seen a terran player come on this thread and say i tried your build and still get rolled all the time by zerg, ive only gotten positive feedback from terrans who were having trouble against zerg and are doing better now using this build. Why come on a thread and basically say "if the zerg player is really good and holds off all your aggression and plays very well he will beat you" cant you say that about any build? You say that my zerg opponents made mistakes that i exploited which is why i beat them? No shit? isnt that how every game is won? can you point me to the threads with the builds that you say are more abusive against zerg id love to see them That's the problem, there's currently no good guides on TL. Especially for Terran. :/ Just look at the Marine Raven stuff or iEchoics build. Both just so very gimmicky dwelling a shot existence in these early days while basically everyone is still terrible. Don't get me wrong. This is going in the right direction. The timings work well and with the current mindset of Zergs you probably wind up just auto-winning against most of them since they don't really have a plan / don't know how to respond / lack scouting. However I think this isn't a really solid style that we will still see in a half-year from now (unlike for example tank marine styles or ling muta etc.), but I might just be wrong.  | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On November 14 2010 11:16 Pookie Monster wrote: i can accept that, as the metagame changes and the patches come out certain builds just arent as good anymore look at reactor hellion opening i used to love that build but now i think you would get steamrolled lol but for now i think this build is great and works very well against the current zerg metagame, ChickenLips loves to discredit everything in the harshest way possible. Just do what works for you and ignore the haters because you'll never be able to convince them. I'm wondering, how effective is this on something like cross positions on Shakuras. You almost have to expand. I apologize if you have a rep of it but I haven't looked through them all. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
On November 14 2010 22:25 Antisocialmunky wrote: ChickenLips loves to discredit everything in the harshest way possible. Just do what works for you and ignore the haters because you'll never be able to convince them. I'm wondering, how effective is this on something like cross positions on Shakuras. You almost have to expand. I apologize if you have a rep of it but I haven't looked through them all. i believe two replays are on shakuras, and the thing is i throw up my expo at about 35 food so that isnt very late its just delayed, i still consider this to be an expansion focused build its just a safer expansion that allows you to apply pressure to zerg. | ||
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itriedtoquit
1 Post
it might be obvious to others but i didn't realize that another way to hurt/delay the zerg econ is to force him to unit up instead of using those on drones. thanks | ||
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jay236
29 Posts
It's nice because it makes the zerg put some spines down. I'm really digging the 6 marine/1 hellion harass. You probably can steamroll the opponents more if you had your apm up to micro the hellion you sometimes lose. I'm also convinced that it works because it's evident that you don't need a huge amount of mechanical skill to pull it off. I'll have to try this vs Zerg...so far the FoxeR marine/scv all-in is working for me, but we all know SC2 is more about eco, and people will start figuring out how to defend the cheese lol. | ||
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sablja
17 Posts
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