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I ussually use to loose to mutas.Depending on map (the large the distance..the better for the zerg) u can go muta...if he tries any blink stalker cuteness,just run away.Dont forget to build more queens and have ur near death mutas tranfused(i know most of the zergs dont do that), cause no mutas=no harass.As long as u keep him in his base u should be fine.
If he throws down an stargate,dont panic.First of all it takes more then average micro to dont get ur phoenixes killed.Second,u can get 2 infestors...and keep them burowed(if u have burrow tech) and fuganl the phoenixes.If the toss losses his phoenixes his really behind.
The only time toss has an easier time is on close positions 4 player map or 2 player maps,cause he can either 4 gate u...or 3 gate blink stalkers.But that can be taken care off by scouting.
Like i said,the answer to ur needs are mutas.The only counters to them are blink stalkers(only mildly effective..as u can defend ur base +expo,but u cant expand more on the map) and phoenixes(which u can deal as i said above).
Usually u go for mutas..get expoes and transition to cracklings/ultras.This way Idra beat oGsInka in a replay.
U said ur an player who likes to experiment new stuff no ?
Well try baneling drops on HT (fruitdealer style)..i know it sounds risky..but 2 banelings fully upgraded can take 1 HT off.Dont diss me for this ideea,jus trying to provide new ideeas for the zerg comunity  .
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as a protoss player i find that muta ling hurts the most if i didnt open or dont have a stargate running.
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On October 25 2010 18:18 skindzer wrote:
BTW Protoss players are welcomed to say what beats them :3
mutalisks & speedlings.. kills me every time..
thats why I don't like it to get to late game as a Protoss v Zerg xD
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Those who say they get beat by mutalisks and zerglings clearly arent using forcefield and good cannon placement enough. No offense.
I have litterally no answer to the 3gate sentries expand -> 2 robo collosi 6 gateway stalker spam. This is the build I CONSISTENTLY lose to. I use muta/ling in all of my ZvZ.
I have tried agressive expanding into hydra spam, didn't hold it off. I do baneling drops in their mineral lines, but those are easily held off by a couple of stalkers/cannons. I do ling into muta a lot. But it seems whatever I try, once the death army of tons of stalkers and collosi gets up, I might as well just gg. Its like the way fourgate used to be, but now those are more easily held off, protoss are moving on to the next big death push.
Does any zerg have a build or tips that hold off this push consistantly? Because i'm really getting fed up with it.
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Late game Zerg is the same against T or P: you will most likely lose 200/200 battles. You need to have enough economy/production that you almost instantly replenish your army.
This is especially true against Thor and Colossi based armies, since these units take quite a long time to rebuild...
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I watched Fruitdealer vs some P teammate of his the other day and all FD did was constantly try and engage the P's army when he only has a single Colossus up, and he'd just keep trading his Roach ball for the P's ball.
Colossus become ridiculous when the P gets a certain amount of them ie critical mass. The difference between 2 Colossus and 3 Colossus is pretty noticeable. If a P ever gets 5 of them up I lose everytime.
So I think FD's commando Roaches are probably not a bad way to deal with P. Constantly pressure and force army trades while his Colossus count is low. Deny expansions and take expansions yourself. I haven't played a ZvP since I saw that match oddly enough but this is what I'm going to start trying.
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On November 12 2010 22:41 Sniffy wrote:
I watched Fruitdealer vs some P teammate of his the other day and all FD did was constantly try and engage the P's army when he only has a single Colossus up, and he'd just keep trading his Roach ball for the P's ball.
Colossus become ridiculous when the P gets a certain amount of them ie critical mass. The difference between 2 Colossus and 3 Colossus is pretty noticeable. If a P ever gets 5 of them up I lose everytime.
So I think FD's commando Roaches are probably not a bad way to deal with P. Constantly pressure and force army trades while his Colossus count is low. Deny expansions and take expansions yourself. I haven't played a ZvP since I saw that match oddly enough but this is what I'm going to start trying.
I don't think FD is the best guy to copy ZvP from. From what he has shown us in GSL he seems to think ZvP is his worst MU and that has also shown in the way he played againt oGsInCa, all-inning every single game.
Also, if the P does a proper sim-city you won't be able to keep his colossus count low with 4 range roaches. It just doesn't work. You might be able to delay his tech and get your advantage that way, but I feel that if the Protoss knows what he's doing he will get his robo units up and then roflstomp through any amount of roaches.
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Infestors.
You can either neural parasite the colossi, or fungal growth the stalkers. Once the protoss ball can`t move, go in for the kill. The key is to use your corruptors to get the colossus out of position. Every decent protoss knows if he loses that colossus advantage early, he`s done in a 200 food fight.
The same way TLO started this fake-nuke to rush strat in TvT, you are aiming to get the P out of position. As soon as the colossus moves to give you a flank, CHARGE.
Also don't forget to forcefully skew their tech. If you go mass roach, and they stop colossus production for immortals, switch to mutas.
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On October 25 2010 19:53 impirion wrote:
Pretty sure 10 or so immortals would massacre 15 ultras. If you are getting 15 ultras, he probably has enough resources to make 10 immortals.
Yes, but you can get 15 ultras in a single production cycle. The 10 immortals would most likely take 5 cycles (assuming 2 robos). In the time it takes to make that many immortals the damage would already be done.
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Just from reading the OP I'd say your problem is that you don't scout enough. It should be possible to flank on any map if you know the exact moment your opponent is pushing and set up your forces to come in from two sides at a good ambush location. Of course, this is impossible if you don't know he's pushing until he's at your front door...
Personally I'm not a fan of roaches. I don't think they justify taking up 2 food late game. The same goes for mutas. Of course that's just my preference as mutas can be very effective vs protoss. My plan as zerg is to leapfrog tech from ling to roach early game to hydra to infestors mid game to spire tech to broodlords late game and ultimately end up with a hydra/infestor/broodlord mix. Ultras are too easily taken out by the stalker/immortal unit composition but fungal + broodlords should be very strong especially now that fungaled stalkers can no longer blink.
I would say another thing missing in your play is using zerglings to snipe expansions. You say you can't keep the protoss from expanding after he takes his third, but it should be easy to deny his third. Just position your army so he has to move to defend somewhere else, then run in with 24 speedlings and snipe his nexus or kill all his probes. It should be easy if you are already teching to ultras (i.e. +2melee/+2carapace by the time his third is going up).
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On November 12 2010 23:25 SugarBear wrote:
I would say another thing missing in your play is using zerglings to snipe expansions. You say you can't keep the protoss from expanding after he takes his third, but it should be easy to deny his third. Just position your army so he has to move to defend somewhere else, then run in with 24 speedlings and snipe his nexus or kill all his probes. It should be easy if you are already teching to ultras (i.e. +2melee/+2carapace by the time his third is going up).
I agree with this, and this is the first thing I thought as well. If it gets to lategame, you should have 3/3 cracklings, which run over photon cannons like nothing. So my suggestion would be to play defense with a defensive line at the edge of your creep, and do some crack drops. 3 overlords full of lings can take out an undefended expo very quickly. Alternatively, you could try nydus play to harass with larger units like roach/hydra/ultra. If your harass is able to take out his production buildings or his tech, you can get yourself into a good situation to trade armies.
If you want to engage the Protoss army, maybe it would be worth it to have some neural parasite. But I like this idea less.
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How do you deal with the Archon/Stalker/Immortal deal?
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Your macro is god-awful, your apm isn't even close enough to what you need to effectivly control everything you can control, work on that and also spire against stargate/mass wg isn't a very smart idea.
Roach is your KEY and CORE unit in ZvP, 95% of my games I win because I macro up like a maniac, get maxed on roaches with or close to 2-2 and just rinse his maingate because roaches are cost effective and extremely extremely good with the new range change since you can now easily micro up so you get a double concave shooting and not half your roaches running around in the background doing nothing.
If you see a stargate or stargate unit, put down a hydra den but don't commit to hard into them, he WANTS you to dump alot of your resources into hydras so he can switch colossi. Even if he doesn't commit into 5-6 pheonix for contain play like most people favors nowadays they're still pretty decent units and they will make him switch into colossi which roaches w/ speed and upgrades completely rinse.
You turn his plan into yours and put him in a trap if you see what I'm getting at.
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I'm about your level and everything with zerg, with the exact same problems, the only i have truthfully found to work at all it win before that, though i know it isn't a counter or anything but it is the onlything i find. If i play vs a protoss on something like Steppes ( which is a LOL all in itself ) i just do a 2 base huge all in push or a quick 3 base all in push. You can't be zerg playing macro on maps like that.
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I try to open roach hydra and expand. That holds off any gateway/pheonix play. Protoss players usually respond by getting collosus. So I just poke and see what he's getting and let him see my army is mainly ground units. And then I tech switch to mutalisk. I usually lose the first push but I kill most of his army (usually). At this point i rally point in mass roach and ling as his army will be small and roaches are great in small numbers. I think the key to winning is to exploit his army composition. They will either have more gateway units or more robo units. And as long as you can win the air battle and keep a couple mutas alive you can push him back. Just focus down the sentries and stalkers, He wont be able to push out with just collosus and zealots.
In my experience, they will either be on 2 or 3 bases. A ling at every expansion will let you know when he tries to expand. If you are lucky he will push out as his 3rd is going up. Then all you have to do is win the battle and deny the expansion. If he is on 3 bases, then win the battle and tech up to ultralisk/infestor/roach. And harass him like crazy and force him to make units from his warp gate.
~1700 diamond, but protoss is one of my better match ups.
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They totally buffed infestors to counter blink stalker in zvp. I can't see a good reason late game to not have infestors in any matchup for any reason whatsoever. You can lock down an army or prevent it from running/pursuing, you can make a wall of infested terrans, you can stop air harass. If you aren't making infestors, i don't think you should be focused too much on a creative straight-forward army mix until you can comfortably fit infestors into your army.
Also, havoc is spelled with a c, not a k.
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I am a 1900 toss player and this is what I am having difficulty dealing with late game. You basically avoid fighting the big ball and go for harass. You drop/ nydus worm their main. This allows
1) the toss player to back off from the center, which then creates more room to harass other expansions.
2) if you're lucky you will be able to take down critical structures such as gateways or robobays.
3) kill some units from the toss ball.
Then you just create a havoc by attacking other expansions. Eventually, if you did a good job harassing expansions, then you will be able to take down the toss ball
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On November 12 2010 23:15 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 19:53 impirion wrote:
Pretty sure 10 or so immortals would massacre 15 ultras. If you are getting 15 ultras, he probably has enough resources to make 10 immortals. Yes, but you can get 15 ultras in a single production cycle. The 10 immortals would most likely take 5 cycles (assuming 2 robos). In the time it takes to make that many immortals the damage would already be done.
Yeah, you can get 15 ultras in a single production cycle. if you have THAT many resources stockpiled up, which you won't have if your macro is any good. You can get 15 faster than a protoss can get 10 immortals from the starting time, but protoss tech is much quicker to get to than zerg tech (especially t2 vs t3) and if they anticipate ultra and start making immortals when they see your ultra den (ofc this gives you a big opportunity to just go spire but let's say for the sake of argument you still went ultra) you'd be hardpressed to make enough ultras to counter his immo numbers especially considering you'd have to make other units to deal with them.
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On October 25 2010 19:11 Yokoblue wrote:
I'm a 1800 protoss and what really kills me... Is Tech switch to mass muta in mid-late game.
With +1 attack you can take out photon easily and kill pretty much all probes. Even with blinks stalker, if im not prepare for it (thats why its the tech switch that is killing me), the lack of mobility and the strengh of mutas harass kill me.
What i mean is that you have to go like... like you always go in mid game with roach or something... and then tech switch hard to muta that you already had +1 with. Anyway you need the spire to get corruptor midgame. When you have around 1 page 1.5 page (around 30) mutalisk) its almost imposible to counter. If him not supply cap because i have too many collosy or immortal, i wont have the right composition if you dont engage and snipe HT. (You have to have around 3 base to tech switch to that... otherwise you wont have enough ressource)
Just my 2 cents
i was just going to say mass mutas. stalkers are good vs mutas but if you have them outnumbered and they dont have anything else to shoot air they will be pretty defensless once you kill all the stalkers.
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EPT
