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Hello!, im a 1800+ Zerg player with over 1k games on ladder, i say this not as some way of brag (lol) but to make clear that if you are "Platinum but could be diamond if i tried" or low diamond or Gold but constantly beat your diamond friends or whatever, your opinion is not really welcomed.
I was really confident on my ZvP until this past weeks Ive hit a barrier that I havent been able to overcome, and, being a player that likes to try new ideas/combinatios , I still havent found anything that lets me win ZvP once it gets to late game or super late game (max upgrades etc..)
Theres no combination of unit that i can produce thatn can comfortably beat the Protoss ball, an after 3 bases the P can pretty much equal the Zerg production constantly so trying to simplify our armies so i can outproduce him an overrun his army/bases is out of the question.
Also, backstabbing becomes harder because in the best of cases youll only have creep up to the middle of the map.
Unit issues:
The P ball will mostly consist on one of these:
-Mass Stalkers with 4+ Collosi a few Inmortals and even fewer sentries.
-Mass Stalkers with 5-7 Archons + Zealots + 4-5 High Templars.
Obviously Hydras are out of the question because they are made of glass and crawl, and trying choguling tends to be pretty much the same cause a smart P will just add like 2 - 3 more sentries and either the Collosi or the Storms will melt the lings in like 4 in game seconds.
Broodlords besides the fact that i could listen all the songs from Pink Floyds - Animals (ie long) before i could make one get destroyed by blink unless i use them to annoy workers on expos but i havent found them all the useful yet. Plus they take quite some time to move.
This leaves me with some combination of Ultra,Roach + some spare situational units. (Maybe lings, maybe Hydras in low numbers) and Corruptors if the opponent is Collosi heavy.
Now the thing is, in both combination of units the stalkers can kite my units and most of the time the Protoss will be able to decide when to engage so it will be either on my side of the map if hes ahead or in his side where he also has cannons to help and can reinforce faster.
Now the biggest problem with a Collsi heavy combination is that if i dont do a GOOD surround or a fast retreat my units will get MELTED because after the 4th Collosi shit starts to die FAST and if i lose the battle without killing the Collosi, or even then, its insta GG.
Now the problem with a more templar oriented combination is that, all in all, is their units that are countering mine. Because even if Ultras counter Stalkers they have Archons and zealots as meatshield + storms and also because of this meatshield stalkers can abuse more their range on roaches.
Map issues
-Steppes of War: pretty obvious, you cant really prevent the P from taking an expa after he takes his third and late game revolves around both armies looking at each other constantly, surrounding is pretty much impossible (at best youll be able to hit from 2 directions with something like 45º of separation).
Also, trying some fancy stuff like dropping or Nydus can easily cost me the game if it fails because he can just 1a push into my main and hell be there in like 3 seconds. This is true even in early game actually because the map is FUCKING SMALL.
I ended up thumbing down this maps after a while.
-Shakuras Plateu: Same as Steppes but "the opposite", the maps is LARGE, but surrounding in late game IS IMPOSSIBLE, and most of the times our armies will have to fight head on because of the way the middle of the map is designed. There are some destructibles rock but the gap is small and it can be covered with a FF. Its extremely hard to stop the protoss from getting expas. After a while well both have the same amount and im done.
-Delta Quadrant: On close positons only, the P can easily defend and take 3 bases and he can constantly threaten with an attack so you cant go crazy pumping drones because he can easily see your army and find a weak moment to attack. Most of the time theyll just sit on 3 bases maxing upgrades and move out when +3 attack is done.
What makes it even harder is that the transition to Ultras can be EXTREMELY fragile if the P is pressuring you. (Also true on steppes) Also battles will tend to be in the middle, and again, if i lose, insta gg cause he can easily go straight to my base and even if i can keep up with the amount of units i wont be able to make flank his army.
Also thumbing down any of this maps means having to play ZvT on Lost Temple or Jungle Basin. (What an awesome map pool).
Here a rep showing the late game issues (i kinda gave up after i saw him taking his third cause i knew what was coming. Also dont take too seriously the early game cause i was pretty much falling asleep (4am).
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BTW Protoss players are welcomed to say what beats them :3
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Would hydras combined with nydus/ overlord drops to increase mobility off creep work at all? I am only a lowly gold, so just throwing an idea out there. So roach hydra with corruptors to deal with the collosi heavy builds? This should be able to take them in a straight fight on creep where hydras are almost a decent speed, and overlord drops/nydusing with hydras can abuse the fact that a collosus or templar army are relatively immobile and harass them?
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I'm a 1800 protoss and what really kills me... Is Tech switch to mass muta in mid-late game.
With +1 attack you can take out photon easily and kill pretty much all probes. Even with blinks stalker, if im not prepare for it (thats why its the tech switch that is killing me), the lack of mobility and the strengh of mutas harass kill me.
What i mean is that you have to go like... like you always go in mid game with roach or something... and then tech switch hard to muta that you already had +1 with. Anyway you need the spire to get corruptor midgame. When you have around 1 page 1.5 page (around 30) mutalisk) its almost imposible to counter. If him not supply cap because i have too many collosy or immortal, i wont have the right composition if you dont engage and snipe HT. (You have to have around 3 base to tech switch to that... otherwise you wont have enough ressource)
Just my 2 cents
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1500 toss here .. just a quick pointer, almost all my lost PvZ games are against air-based strategies. When I pick the Robo tech route, Corrupters ruin my day, and when I go for Templars they get sniped by Mutas. And yeah, when I take it to the skies myself via Starport route, my ground army can't match his.
I know this is no direct strategy advice, but whenever I scout a Spire going up I prepare for a hard game - and it's not because of Broolords.
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seriously i m hving the same issue big time, n wt i am plannig to do it jus use more Infestors, hving 3 to 5 of these babies would really help cuz if u r using anything other than the hydras n by that i mean ANYTHING other than the hydras, u can easy get in range to use the mind control thingy, which i dont noe the name off.
I imagine hving lings roaches plus ultras plus 4 infestors u can easy use mind control on the 3 or 4 colosus, not only ur reducing toss's DPS but ur also increasing ur DPS at the same time, n if toss is going to focus fire ur infestors who are sitting way behind ur close range army then there power ball is gonna be scaterd n ur get the surround beter n KILL TOSS.
Again this is what i ma have to do, i dont really use infestors n i recomend infestor now, LOL one time i used infestors to nutral parasite there mothership NOW THAT WAS GREAT
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This is more of a discussion rather then a hard evidenced answer.
But hydra roach is a pretty damn strong, as long as there isn't coll out. If you can neutralize the col, hydra roach is pretty effective. Even hydras can dodge storms with good creep spread(which you should have) This can be done with corrupters (duh) or maybe using ultras to tank col shots and negate ff's.
But yeah, blizzard has claimed that zerg is supposed to be a macro oriented race with multiple pronged attacks, so their isn't a great ultimate zerg ball that t and p get. So their isn't a great answer.
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depends alot on his tech and unit combination.
overall broodlords and utlras are the obvious choice. doesnt hurt to use broodlords like guardians tho (move em behind enemy expos cliff/whatever and shut it down).
in the end you just have to completly overun him with pure mass.
just dont let him get into some turtle expanding style. you will NOT beat the P once it gets really lategame. a solid warpgate mix with HT,archons and immortals will roll over evrything you can throw at him.storm hardcounters evry Z unit except ultras/roaches which get raped by warpgate/immortal/archon. its not even close. deny the 3rd if possible/kill him earlier and absolutely deny the 4th. thats all you can do.
oh and small drops can be very effective. upgraded cracklings eat buildings ins econds. drop some and use em to snipe tech buildings.
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On October 25 2010 19:18 gautamvirk86 wrote:
seriously i m hving the same issue big time, n wt i am plannig to do it jus use more Infestors, hving 3 to 5 of these babies would really help cuz if u r using anything other than the hydras n by that i mean ANYTHING other than the hydras, u can easy get in range to use the mind control thingy, which i dont noe the name off.
I imagine hving lings roaches plus ultras plus 4 infestors u can easy use mind control on the 3 or 4 colosus, not only ur reducing toss's DPS but ur also increasing ur DPS at the same time, n if toss is going to focus fire ur infestors who are sitting way behind ur close range army then there power ball is gonna be scaterd n ur get the surround beter n KILL TOSS.
Again this is what i ma have to do, i dont really use infestors n i recomend infestor now, LOL one time i used infestors to nutral parasite there mothership NOW THAT WAS GREAT
Ugh, what a mess. Seriously, this forum even gives you an automatic spelling correction (in case you ever wondered what all those RED LINES below every second word in your "post" are for) - make use of it.
If you can't be bothered to post in proper English, don't post at all. And look up correct names for abilities in Liquipedia if you "dont noe the name off" something.
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I also think air is the way to go. First of all, muta harass is great as already mentioned. Secondly, air control is map control. So let's say he IS prepared for your mutas and you can't do much. In that case, you still have the possibility to mass nydus (talking about very late game) and just throw like 20cracklings in 4 different spots of his bases.
I think your argument is very true and I also feel like there is no way I can win an army clash late game against toss. However, if we both have to split armies, it is no problem to win. I'm only 1.550 dia and I also fail at achieving this split. Basically because of my bad multitasking / apm. But whenever I succeed I can really see how this works incredibly well. Whenever small armies clash, lings demolish everything a protoss has.
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On October 25 2010 19:30 Google. wrote:
I also think air is the way to go. First of all, muta harass is great as already mentioned.
not lategame.staying on mutas too long /lkategame can hugely backfire. once HT tech is thru they are very very weak in fighting situations. storm/archons really rape muta/ling if the P hits 1-3 good storms.
you might have mapcontrol for some time but when he moves out your army will evaporate. and cannons + HT with amulet warpin shuts down any muta counters/harrass you might wanna do.
had games where i was in total control for the entire game, 4 vs 2 base with maxed mutaling and i got stomped when he moved out with HT/archon. and before my ultras reinforcements were out(damn that looong buildtime) i lost 2 expos while the P secured his 3rd. lost the game shortly after.
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Well, against any kind of late-game collosus ball, ultras work well. Spend all your gas on ultras, and dump the minerals into lings. You have to keep your melee attack and carapace well upgraded so the lings do well against zealots. If you have even or better upgrades, the only thing that will be beating you for cost are the robo units. Immortals don't really do that well against ultra/ling, as the target priority will make them attack whatever's closest, which is often the lings. Ultras absolutely destroy stalker/collosus. You may want to throw down a hydra den when you attack with ultra/ling as well, as toss sometimes will switch to void ray, seeing this combination.
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I find using both ultraling AND broodlords against toss endgame is extremely devastating. I have yet to see protoss field a ground army that can beat it. This takes awhile to get granted, but if we're talking 30 min+ matches here it isn't too hard.
If they start going air then I like to cut a few ultras and get more hydras, but mutas/corruptors would probably work in their place.
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You sort of mention the solution yourself in your OP. I'd go for a very heavy roach army, with 5-10 ultralisks and a couple of brood-lords backing it up. Make sure to try and fight on creep and on open ground, maintain a good surround on his army, and don't let-up on keeping your expansions up and running. It goes without saying that +3 wpn/armor is very important at the late stage of game.
1500 diamond random player here, so I can tell you I have experience from both sides of the equation in these situations.
edit: hydras are really bad against heavy colossi armies, roaches do much better due to their larger unit size and higher hp, thus the splash is minimized against them. The broodlords are there purely to confuse the AI with their broodlings, akin to how carrier interceptors run circles around armies that aren't properly microed, and ultras are there to screw up the stalker blink if he chooses to come and focus your broodlords.
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3 words. ultralisks. theres nothing that beats like...15 ultralisks off of 4 bases. You are basically unstoppable
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On October 25 2010 19:46 BreAKmYBank wrote:
3 words. ultralisks. theres nothing that beats like...15 ultralisks off of 4 bases. You are basically unstoppable
pure ultralisks are worthless. they get funneled in bad spots,can get kited forever ,block evrything and after the double nerf they dont even do so great vs standart warpgate units anymore(not to mention immortals/archons).
they are decent in open spaces when you can properly flank and surround their army(no arc,all units clumped,no kiting...). when you have to attack thru small chokes they are terrible and they need other stuff to support.
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Pretty sure 10 or so immortals would massacre 15 ultras. If you are getting 15 ultras, he probably has enough resources to make 10 immortals.
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it says Protoss for nada????
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Lurkers and defilers > Protoss. Imagine the havok of infestors + defilers...
On a serious note when it comes to that collosi mix you stated in the OP, Mutas and ultras are the answer to your problems. Mutas are extremely strong against that group if you can somehow take out those sentries really fast, with Ultras + roaches. This mix really isn't what should trouble zerg players as much as that next composition you stated. Archons are the real zerg killer, they handle ultras, as well as destroying anything bio a.k.a all zerg. However, I believe hydra+roach is a good match up for that composition, while sprinkling some broodlords due to the lack of long range units, a few ultras to tank though really wouldn't hurt.
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I'm in mid diamond, and the thing I use to beat lategame protoss would be something with broodlords. lots and lots of brood lords.
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Against archon zealot in that replay you posted, and I'm sure if you watched the replay you see where you could improve your creep spread and scouting. I think you should really trust hydralisks and broodlords a lot more. They do a lot better in the choke heavy maps, and mixed with broodlords + Infestors or Roach + Infestor.. well, it even sounds like a really strong combination. I also find that when floating lots of minerals, it's good to wall off and prepare escape routes and attack paths much like terran and protoss players do.
Even when you lost your ultralisk army, I find that morphing hydralisks after they've morphed all of their HTs into archons are a lot more effective than using your minerals on something that is practically hard countered by their army composition... right? Like, ultralisk just doesn't seem like the right thing to build against archon, zeal, stalker, especially when you don't have chokes that are working in your favor. Against colossus builds ultra seem better, but archons just do so much damage behind the wall of zealots, while blink stalkers hurt them so much more than they can hurt hydras.
When you're maxed and just trying to have more bases than the protoss, it's worth it to spend the part of the 3000 you're floating while maxed out on a few lines of crawlers and block off parts of the map like terran and protoss do, as it buys you more time to use nydus and backstabs. Plus I find it almost necessary to use these sort of techniques when they have a lot of high templar.
I think in that replay that ultralisks were just the wrong choice of unit vs stalker archon and you would've been better off with creep all over your half of the map and actually using hydra + infestor with lings for backstabs and possibly earlier broodlords over ultralisks. Infestor is seriously your most cost effective unit in attack and retreat positions, plus for probe harass. so... use'em more.
Like, the only reason you lost your main was because you didn't have the bottom path accounted for, and slightly better late game scouting would've helped that a lot. Your early game was really strong, but I think once you become more confident in late game with more patience and scouting, you'll see some vast improvements in your late win rate vs protoss. I think your attack was very panicked looking and you lost such an expensive army by moving into a position where you were trapped with no escape route in that game. I didn't think you'd lost any advantages until that point in the game.
Plus you kinda left a game where your enemy had 0 econ and you had the opportunity to fight back. Looked like frustration with late game..
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on tier 2 get spire and roach speed, harass with muta but dont overcommit, dont show your roaches(overseer required) as soon as yo spot an observer snipe it with mutas and add infestor to prevent blink later on, good postioning and fungaling in the right moment brings you the win
so:
-get mapcontrol with mutas (about 10)
-invest gas in infestor/roach and minerals into flanking lings
-kill observers
you could invest in neural parasite but when he overcommits colossus ur mutas should clean up without neural parasite
im only ~500 diamond but playing constantly against 1300-1500
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Doesnt fungal block blink nowadays? (maybe it used to and now doesn't but i seem to remember it being changed) Seeing as blink seems to be the key here without which protoss' game can be torn apart.
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Going to assume first of all that you did not take excessive econ damage from harass,since that is avoidable.
Did i go robo? If so, pump a round of muta after my 2nd colossus if you have not seen stargate, or have not seen phoenixes running around. Harass my economy and colossus if possible with it. Continue expanding and what not depending on your planned timings of course, while doing this.
If I went colossus/immortal with stalker, I have more than 1 robo. Probably I have 2. Now this will depend on how late we are talking about. If it is late enough, if you get infestors for neural on colossus + fungal on stalkers and have broodlord/ling, it will be difficult. Just make sure my stalkers can't blink out and you keep controlling my colossus, surround with lings, kill stalkers with broodlord, when stalkers are dead I'll be in danger since colossus are slow as hell and I can't rebuild them quickly or cheaply. Have the colossus target my stalkers which are stuck of course.
If earlier, I don't know, it really depends on the timing. Just know that dual robo is not cheap, and neither are robo units. So, just don't freak out and you can probably hold it and make it to late game. Sorry I am not of much exact help here ;x. Will watch replay later when I have time.
1933 protoss btw.
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oops fail meant to edit not quote ~_~
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Mid-diamond protoss
Muta harass just wins on Shakuras. Stalkers are stupidly ineffective at killing mutas since they only deal bonus damage vs. armored, and even with blink you still can't kill enough of them if Zerg makes plenty. I've seen zerg make 40 mutalisks in one of my games, and with the bounce attack they just kill 6 stalkers in one hit.
Also, i've never been able to beat a zerg when he gets tier 3 units. Whether it's broods or ultras. Toss needs amazing micro to fight against ultras on open ground, and plenty of colossi. Most likely there will not be many immortals at all, since the robo bay(s) will be making colossi constantly, so ultras won't be countered very quickly
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First of all a lategame straight up battle vs protoss is indeed very hard to beat. If the protoss scouts well and has the proper lategame ball (which is indeed one of the two you posted basically) it's very hard to win a army clash if you don't get proper positioning.
As zerg there are imo 3 things important to make sure you don't just get overrun in the lategame:
- keep the protoss guessing quite long what unit combination you are heading into. Mostly zerg go muta/ling into ultra or hydra/roach. However early on it's still quite easy for zerg to switch between these, for example opening muta/ling with only some muta's to switch into hydra/roach works quite well. It usually delays colossi by a lot (as muta opening usually forces blink stalkers, phoenixes etc.) and you have a spire for corruptors already. Likewise a roach opening can easily switch into muta/ling, just get armor upgrade first which is the better one against protoss anyway.
- Try to be economically ahead in the midgame. Muta/ling and hydra/roach are both quite good for getting an expansion advantage as they are easy to get compared to their protoss counters. PvZ is still a bit like sc1 imo, Z needs about 1.5 base for every P base.
- Try to keep small fights as much as possible by trading armies or fighting on multiple fronts. The zerg army can easily by split up whereas the protoss army can't. Sentries and colossi are not that strong in small armies so forcing the P to defend and move alot works really well. If you are using muta/ling you have speed anyway, if you use hydra/roach you really need drops or be economically even more ahead.
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1800 random player, theres two types of situations I look at ZvP before I try to make any analysis on how the game should have gone.
Did he pressure, or did he FE himself?
If they try and put on early pressure your creep spread is your biggest concern. Getting a defense as far away from your main/natural (Map dependent), is your best chance if you are expecting to stay in the game and he isn't going all in. Obviously as zerg, at around the 12 minute mark you want to be taking your third. Think like that next time you play.
If they FE (and this is the situation I find hardest to deal with), scouting A LOT becomes more important than almost everything else you're doing in the game. Spread OVs all over his base (If they go for a forge/FE they aren't going to have stalkers for awhile, just pay attention to the time on their cybo.)
Either way, from what I've found best as zerg is a good mix of roach/zergling/ultra or roach/hydra/broodlord is the best possible solution. I like mutas though, however if you see a twilight council don't waste your time. I think the trick with zerg is trying to be, for a lack of a better terms, everywhere at once. What I mean is zerg has the most mobile army in the game, use that to your advantage. Nydus networks are very powerful when used correctly.
Don't forget, even against P, banelings tear mineral lines up, don't be afraid to ovie bomb some expos.
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United States313 Posts
Protoss perspective, so a little more theory than experience, but I think an interesting discussion none the less.
From your detailed OP you do seem to be struggling with Blink stalkers and colossi primarily, both of which as shammy mentioned above can be taken care of with infestors. 2 colossi with range costs 850 gas, and the timing for infestors mid game shouldn't be too hard assuming your opponent isn't 1 basing. In fact infestors seem like a solid response to every protoss aggressive opening outside of 4gate; they destroy high phoenix counts with fungal growth (granted you'll need a spore crawler and a queen or two to finish them off), they can NP colossi, and depending on the timing could NP immortals if you got NP fast ish, and lastly both blink stalkers and charge zealots are restricted by FG allowing lings to destroy stalkers or roaches / any ranged unit to attack the zealots freely. Like I said I'm protoss so I'm sure there are plenty of holes that would need to be worked out with an infestation pit after lair opening, but it even sets you up for a fast hive if you only use the infestors to delay (harass burrowed with infested terran style?). Granted FG can't be counted on for damage quite like the other matchups because of shields, but in situations where you are either delaying or definitely engaging it still has significant impact. Gas heavy so this would obviously have to go with ling or roach depending on zealot vs stalker/immortal count, I'm curious to see how this would do, anyone interested in trying let me know.
I suppose this doesn't really help your late game, sorry for that, you probably have a good, well refined opening and mid game, but its an interesting idea and certainly pretains to the late game trouble you've been having. Stopping any mid game play efficiently with infestors allows you to counter their next tech, most likely meaning throw down a spire as they go HT for feedback. I would not necessarily advise adding infestors to your late game army if they already have storm, unless its storm + colossi or you think you can NP and storm his own army quickly/reliably enough. Against blink stalker heavy compositions though FG is probably the best zerg response avaliable, other than having the economy to pump out a massive wave of ultralisks. Corrupters recent buff should also make the spire look a little more appetizing than it already was, they can now directly counter 2 of Protoss's tier 3 techs, and they no longer have to watch out for feedback.
Hope this helps =)
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In SC1, basically if zerg and protoss on equal in econ/macro ability protoss will win. Sort of why the whole 1 base up logic comes from. Zerg and protoss must be 1 base up on terran to be "equal" And Zerg must 1 base up from protoss to be on equal grounds. Im well aware the 2 games are different, however their are some similarities.
From my PVZ late game experience if i hit late game full steam, little or no effective harassment / delay of tech/ expo, Im usually confident of a win. Nothing zerg can throw at me can take my ball down with such efficiency that i cant recover from. (
Let a protoss hit lategame with great econ and your in for a hell of a game(or at least better econ than you). The zergs that beat me late game, are the ones that harass me enough to weaken my late game, whether its nexus snipe, muta harass, overseer tech delay, early roach pressure. Sometimes all of these. Delaying protosses nexus, at least once, muta harass and cause him to either loose probes or pull them, either way good. Dont over commit to an harass trying to finish me and lose units because that just evens it right back up.
The way i see it zerg has to hit lategame with more econ/macro potential (steam) to grind away at protoss(aside from maybe a drop over my gateways and killing them all in which case, no matter my econ i cant reproduce units and keep up with zerg as we skirmish). Drop an expo, kill stray zealots with mutas, rarely will a late game zerg deal me a Killing blow that i cant recover from, but he cuts me down here, prevents a needed expo, drops forcing me to move army, etc, and sort of soften me up until i know its over and I GG, or they out macro me. You cant really go head to head with 200 vs 200 army Z v P in most cases, you want to constantly whittle his army so he doesnt have a solid 200 ball. Also before protoss get his 200 ball at which point the ball can deal with almost anything you have, before this point as zerg you can uniquely hard tech switch. You can be say during mid game, have a heavy zergling composition which will cause protoss to have zealots. Then as you harass, poke and prod within 1 mutas build time you can have 6-8 mutas and snipe probes, some stray templars and so on. You can REALLY abuse the protoss's unit composition against them. If your roach heavy initially - protoss reacts stalkers, then in 30 secs you can have a good number of zerglings + roachs vs pure stalkers. Even these in themselves are more early/mid game techniques but they will add up. If you can melt 1 squad of stalkers, even if protoss survives it puts him behind, since he has to rebuild his stalker count and invest in other gas units. Abuse your ability to dynamically change your unit composition.
I see it the same way in PVT, protoss sort of need to throw units at terran somewhat especially in a zealot heavy build, while terran tries to grow their army ball to a point where it melts most things Protoss can throw at it(more early/mid game). As protoss when playing terran, having the econ advantage(translate to more macro potential) seems to be key. And even then unless the advantage is huge, it wont in in itself give you the win. I throw my army at a terran expo, losing alot of zealots trying to conserve stalkers / HT / colossus/ immortal whatever your tech path is. Terran tries to micro and conserve units, while as toss i feel i try to minimize his ability to micro away, and unit trade but maintain an economic advantage. Again in this Matchup, lategame, protoss usually wont 1 killing GG blow, but this killshot comes after a series of exchanges where protoss comes out on top and gains the ability to make more tech units. Once you come out on top enough times(whether you do a even unit trade but expo in the process, or you efficient kill his units) you will gain a large enough advantage tech wise or unit wise to actually finish them. I guess the mechanics are a bit different since protoss late game is strong(equal or better than terrans) so its basically whoever has the better econ and control will win. neither side really has to have a clear econ advantage to win IMO. Meaning a lategame protoss could win say protss 3/4 base vs 4/5 base terran once you have hit 200/200 because protoss units trade fairly well with terran units lategame. WIth Zerg if the protoss player is ahead in econ or both players are near equal, and both players are at 200/200 i dont feel the zerg can win.
If Zerg and Protoss are on equal footing protoss is ahead. This is why zergs like to have at least 1 more hatch than protoss, to have that economic advantage since unit for unit protoss sort of edges out, especially late game. You need mess up his early/mid game so that once you hit lategame you will be at 100% and him only at 80%. So although your looking for lategame advice, im sure there are alot of things your could do in your early/midgame to weaken the toss late game.
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im constantly winning my pvz´s currently, and im a 1800 point diamond protoss.
the key to win vs toss is a good harrass i think...... a well played muta harrass is really hard to counter. and im not even playing collossi very often... currently i always make an fe into blinkstalkers out of 4-6 gates. then watch what the zerg do... if he goes for mass muta i add storm... if he does mass hydra, i add collossi or storm.. depends on how i fell :D
if he goes roach heavy, i add some immortals and chargelots+stalkers and np.
if he gets ultras.. immortals/chargslots/stalkers just counter them quite well... sometimes i add archons... if i got a good econ in lategame there is really nothing what can kill me.
really the only games i lose are the ones, where i get really hard muta harrassed, while the zerg is expanding the whole map^^ and he outmacros me then.
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Like the OP I thought hydras were out of the question and I also felt like I hit a wall against protoss in mid-diamond. Now for me at least hydras have become the key, they crush gateway armies (minus high templar) so easily I feel that they are essential for this matchup. This is if the protoss is being very aggressive while macroing in the early/mid game which is every game for me. The problem I was having is that trying to fend off early 4 gate with roaches/lings was causing too many losses and the protoss was always able to out produce me on workers while keeping the pressure on at the same time. Instead with a mix of ling/roach/hydra, using an appropriate mix of roaches to kite/tank his number of zealots and an appropriate mix of lings to tank stalkers meanwhile the hydras snipe sentries and shred everything else. You really only need 6-10 of them, keep them in the back and keep them safe, treat them as defensive unites. This will force him to either lay off the pressure or trash his units meanwhile giving you the opportunity to out macro him. Lots of other things help in this matchup, but i think that mid game defensive hydras are very important to hold off gateway pressure and allow you to stay +1 base over the protoss.
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On October 25 2010 18:17 skindzer wrote:
Theres no combination of unit that i can produce thatn can comfortably beat the Protoss ball, an after 3 bases the P can pretty much equal the Zerg production constantly so trying to simplify our armies so i can outproduce him an overrun his army/bases is out of the question.
Also, backstabbing becomes harder because in the best of cases youll only have creep up to the middle of the map.
Yes protoss units are more cost efficient than yours. Duh.
Also Protoss will NEVER EVER be able to match Zergs production capabilities. Just macro better and stay ahead on bases. Backstabbing has almost nothing to do with creep. The only unit that is suitable for backstabs is (late game) speedlings. They are dirt cheap and can easily put a big dent into the P economy.
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@ trueredemption.
I agree infestors are quite good vs protoss actually and should definately be used more. Especially with roach/hydra armies getting infestors to counter colossi is in my opinion better then corruptors. NP works quite well vs colossi if you can keep your infestors somewhat safe which is much easier since FG stops blink and roaches have more range now.
Also infested terrans are hugely underrated. They are actually quite decent against a colossus/stalker ball. Spew some of the eggs in the mid of their army any they soak a fair bit of damage or do a fair bit of damage. With missile attack upgrades affecting both roach/hydra and the infested terrans they actually do quite some respectable damage.. (1 infested terran does about 65% dmg of a hydra!).
Infestors are a terribly underrated unit imo, they are just as easy to access as corruptors if you dont have spire already and fit much better with a roach/hydra army.
Spire = 200m 200g and 100 secs to build.
Then 40 secs for corruptors which then take 45 secs to 'activate' their corruption ability.
So at the fastests you have corruptors after 140 secs with corruption at 185.
Infestation pit + neural parasite = 250m 250g and 160 secs (50 for pit, 110 for NP).
Infestors take 50 secs but can be made while researching NP and also gain energy then while NP is researching.
So at the fastest you can have infestors ready to NP after 160 secs.
Spire also allows muta's which isn't too usefull at that point in the game if you started with roach/hydra imo as the toss will likely have blink stalkers already with possibly some upgrades. Infestation pit allows hive tech, which is fairly usefull for getting ultra's quickly.
Main thing why I think infestors > corruptors against colossi if you use hydra/roach is that they are just more versatile. Corruptors can be ignored, ie. protoss lets his colossi die (while doing lots of damage to hydra's first) and then simply switches to immortal + stalker which is very good vs hydra/roach as well, especially later on as immortals benefit from upgrades really well (the armor ignores zerg upgrades). Broodlords are too sucky and take too long to get too (greater spire takes way too long and needing infestation pit for hive sucks as well if you have spire). Infestors are just so much more usefull all around as they can help stop blink harass and do stuff when the colossi are dead, whereas corruptors are just dead weight then.
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1930 Diamond Zerg here.
Late game ZvP is hard, but I feel like it can be in zerg favor if you play the early/midgame correctly.
Clearly you should thumbs down Steppes and Delta Quadrant, no zerg in their right mind would include those in the ladder map pool. It's a tough choice between Lost Temple and Jungle Basin. I have been thumbing down LT because, close positions, it's so hard to defend against early pressure and thor/tank drops on the ledge are just so strong.
In terms of economic strategy for late game, zerg needs to drone whore during the early and mid game until we reach roughly 90 drones (16 drones for minerals, 6 for gas per base = 22 per base, ideal is 88 drones for 4 bases). With three or four bases fully running and 3 queens (that's all I can manage to handle), you should have a lot of income and enough hatcheries for production (I usually produce an extra hatch in base and an extra hatch at natural around 80 and 160 supply respectively). Creep should of course occupy as much of the map as possible (I always do early creep tumor to make sure this happen).
With 88 drones and (3x2= six supply worth of queens), you should have 106 supply worth of army units. The key to late game zerg is to keep productively using up this army. Doom drop his main, snipe an expansion with cracklings, Trade armies with protoss when you can, and keep him to two or three bases. Your main goal is to prevent him from maxing and pushing out. Zerg can reproduce armies and tech switch faster than toss, so trading armies (even at small cost effectiveness disadvantage to zerg) is beneficial for the Swarm, especially because zerg should have income advantage.
In terms of unit composition, muta/ling is exteremly strong in mid game and you can literally should keep building more mutas into late game untill you have a 3/3 death fleet. IF he goes phonexis, one fungal growth + muta ball with decimate the phonexis. If you opt for hydra/roach play in mid game, hydras beat everything except templars and colloasus. If you see lots of these units, go roach heavy. Late game, you can throw in ultras. IF he goes archon or zlot heavy in response to ultars though, switch back to hydras.
Honestly the key is being aggressive with your army once you max. If you keep the toss off his toes, below max supply, prevent him from pushing on you, and at 3 bases or below when you have 4 bases or more, the game will eventually end in your favor.
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Up and coming 1700 Diamond Zerg:
This is the late game match-up I have the most trouble with. I won't rehash what people have said about muta tech switches and ultras/roachs/lings whatever.
I will say that, while it sounds stupid and naturally intuitive, just don't let the game run that long. 80% of my ZvP games are over before they get 3 bases. To get mass Collosi or HT's, he is going to need a lot of gas. He is going to either be on 2 bases for a long time, in which you should have at least 4. Or he needs to be on three bases, which should be a flashing light that you should attack.
Unless he is rushing to get mass collosi in which case Mutas would be the obvious option (he'll have not a lot of stalkers), you can generally tell the timing of his robo.
Think of it this way: You FE, he gets gateway units and does a 3 gate push. You hold it off and he expos. Right now in the game, you would have some lings, roaches, and hydras. Pump roaches and hydras and try to end it right there. Bypass the whole mass robo ball before he can get it.
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On October 25 2010 22:58 Thor1104 wrote:
1930 Diamond Zerg here.
Late game ZvP is hard, but I feel like it can be in zerg favor if you play the early/midgame correctly.
Clearly you should thumbs down Steppes and Delta Quadrant, no zerg in their right mind would include those in the ladder map pool. It's a tough choice between Lost Temple and Jungle Basin. I have been thumbing down LT because, close positions, it's so hard to defend against early pressure and thor/tank drops on the ledge are just so strong.
In terms of economic strategy for late game, zerg needs to drone whore during the early and mid game until we reach roughly 90 drones (16 drones for minerals, 6 for gas per base = 22 per base, ideal is 88 drones for 4 bases). With three or four bases fully running and 3 queens (that's all I can manage to handle), you should have a lot of income and enough hatcheries for production (I usually produce an extra hatch in base and an extra hatch at natural around 80 and 160 supply respectively). Creep should of course occupy as much of the map as possible (I always do early creep tumor to make sure this happen).
With 88 drones and (3x2= six supply worth of queens), you should have 106 supply worth of army units. The key to late game zerg is to keep productively using up this army. Doom drop his main, snipe an expansion with cracklings, Trade armies with protoss when you can, and keep him to two or three bases. Your main goal is to prevent him from maxing and pushing out. Zerg can reproduce armies and tech switch faster than toss, so trading armies (even at small cost effectiveness disadvantage to zerg) is beneficial for the Swarm, especially because zerg should have income advantage.
In terms of unit composition, muta/ling is exteremly strong in mid game and you can literally should keep building more mutas into late game untill you have a 3/3 death fleet. IF he goes phonexis, one fungal growth + muta ball with decimate the phonexis. If you opt for hydra/roach play in mid game, hydras beat everything except templars and colloasus. If you see lots of these units, go roach heavy. Late game, you can throw in ultras. IF he goes archon or zlot heavy in response to ultars though, switch back to hydras.
Honestly the key is being aggressive with your army once you max. If you keep the toss off his toes, below max supply, prevent him from pushing on you, and at 3 bases or below when you have 4 bases or more, the game will eventually end in your favor.
I wouldn't really advise going that muta heavy. Muta's are a great opener and can continue to be good against players who don't get the proper counters but mass muta isn't that hard to beat. Protoss can just defend with stalkers and phoenix and then push with zealot/stalker/phoenix/archon. No way those muta's will do much in battle, even if you have FG as stalker/phoenix/archon combined mutilates it. If you focus so much on muta upgrades you are likely to be behind in ground upgrades and you know how hard lings get owned if they don't have as many armor ups as toss has attack ups.
Muta play is good but mass upgrading it and continuing to make it regardless of protoss answers is a nono, no matter what backup units they never will be really effective for actual combat.
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2100+ Toss user here.
Usually, you dont want to fight with Protoss' fully loaded ball of death head on.
But there are many ways to solve this.
Constantly trading off your army with his (while expanding) before protoss meets the Critical tech mass is one way.
The other way, easier way, is to go for the elimination game. This is frequently seen on pro games lately. By the end of the game, you should be spread out through-out the map and basically, as he comes far away from his base, you try to kill him faster. You still pump out units from all over but never fight with his army (will be just waste).
However, this may not work in small maps, eg. steppes.
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I always lose to ultras. Stalkers/zealots and colossi dont have the DPS to deal with them, and the protoss will have to switch to immortals, which are then eaten alive by zerglings mixed in with the ultras.
Fungal growth the protoss ball, then surround with ultras. Also, keep sniping colossi with corruptors, and actually make use of corruption.
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The hardest thing for newer zergs (and new players to RTS games in general) is the concept of aggressive expansions.
If you are on equal bases with a protoss, generally speaking in the early to mid game, you have to be the aggressor. You cannot sit there and let them mass up a well rounded ball of units and just march forwards as you aim to get in a good position. Once toss reaches a clean transition into high tech units, zerg units lose about 60% of their cost effectiveness (Things like 4-5 colossi with range, 6-7 templar with storms, archons, heavy pheonix count, etc).
As a zerg player you have to take advantage of a early toss by exploiting what they don't have, and thats anything besides gateway units. I highly recommend players using Hydras at least for a mid game pressure situation (hydras are a pretty smooth transition into roach/ling/ultra as well).
What I meant by aggressive expanding is, if the protoss won't come to you, you go to him. As zerg it is most important to constantly be trading units with your opponent, because again once the death ball of units comes its almost impossible to stop.
From what I've seen while playing ZvP, there are a few ways to put pressure on early to make their transition into mid/late game and more importantly tech units, a lot more bumpy.
Banelings work wonders, honestly they aren't only good against Terran. Banelings are like helions, once you have them out, they make your opponent paranoid, always checking every corner of their base looking for a nydus/hidden zerglings/overlords, etc. What effect does this have? It can shake up your opponent, force more stalkers then needed, or it can make them forget their tech timings.
Hydralisks are IN-CREDIBLE for mid game pushes, not so much late game, but when its about 12-15 minutes into a game, these are a golden unit to possess. They don't have the mobility of mutalisks, but a well rounded gateway/immortal army will fall very quickly to a well numbered hydralisk army. And since you have the pressure on the protoss, you have the room to expand.
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wow i was just trying to help a fellow zerg didnt know that you were going to spell check and just hate.
Anyways i got my point across and trust me not everyone has time to sit there and check there grammar and stuff or in any case even give a suggestion.
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I practice a lot against two zergs and when they started adding in fungal growth with their ultra/ling/X (usually leftover mutas) army things got a lot harder for me. This is mainly for the collossus variety but it can work against templar as well you just have to be very wary of feedback.
Remember to always lead with the ultras. It might seem weird to lead with the expensive unit but you want them tanking as much as possible. Lings just melt to the big protoss ball if you lead with them. This also gets rid of any force fields. As long as the zealot/archon meat shield is tanking the ultras they can't be blocking your lings from surrounding all the ranged units.
Make sure you have as many upgrades for the lings as possible because they end up doing a lot of damage. Mass lings are very good against the units protoss generally tries to focus ultras with (immortals and stalkers)
The most important thing is really positioning though. Ultra/Ling/Infestor is probably the strongest composition but if you engage in any kind of choke or somewhere that limits your ling/ultra surface area its going to be a lot harder for you.
Always engage this big ball in the middle of the map. By late game you should have excess minerals so invest them in spinecrawler walls. If you trade your 200 food ultra/ling army for a good amount of his army the spinecrawlers + mass ling reinforcement can hold off whatever he has leftover + warpins (provided you fought in a good open area and did enough damage). If you engage outside your base and lose your army you're screwed - especially since outside your base is more likely to mean fighting in some kind of choke.
They tried doing mainly ultra/roach as well but I find this much easier to deal with. The same P units are strong against both (immortal/stalker/) and roaches take up valuable ultra surface area.
In a perfect situation you will be able to fungal the zealot/archon meatshield and surround the stalkers/immortals/collosus ball with lings but its obviously not usually that easy to pull off.
Also in super late game situations (IE: both on 4 bases) make sure you take advantage of Zergs ability to instantly tech switch. If they go zealot/immortal heavy to deal with ultra/ling switch to a flock of mutas. When they warp in a ton of stalkers to deal with the mutas switch back to lots of ultra/ling. Don't keep remaking the same army and throwing it at him.
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First of all, to the one that talked about BW, there you had D.Swarm and Plague to spells that let you fight on chokes or head on. The two main issues im having in late game ;_;.
Im seeing most are saying that Mutas are the way to go, but they will blow in lategame simply because you will mix them with lings (which suck) or because your opponent by that time will have several archons + ht so youll need to magic box your mutas and stalkers can work pretty well then.
Also, the fact that you can insta lose your ENTIRE army to 2 storms. So you cant really win unless you are WAY AHEAD (in which case anything will do) or the P screws up BAD.
Pretty much all that " BeMannerDuPenner " said is true.
Going to try using Blords to mess with the Ai my next game. BTW, i find it way harder to fight against templar tech than Robo tech. (IE: HT>Collosi). Also gonna start adding 2 Infestor, i dont find them too useful in lategamp zvp but its not like wham im doing is working so :p
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Early-game, use roach/speedling to do early pressure. Drone up while he's making cannons and sentries.
Mid-game, use speedroach/infestor to secure your 3rd. Make sure you're matching his + attack upgrades with + carapace upgrades. I usually upgrade +1 ranged attack, to make roaches more effective in the mid-game, but then switch to upgrading melee attack, to make crackling/ultra/broodlings more powerful in the late-game. However the +2 roach damage you get from level 1 ranged attack is key when using roaches in the mid-game.
On October 25 2010 18:17 skindzer wrote:
Now the thing is, in both combination of units the stalkers can kite my units and most of the time the Protoss will be able to decide when to engage so it will be either on my side of the map if hes ahead or in his side where he also has cannons to help and can reinforce faster.
Up until patch 1.1.2, there was nothing that zerg could do to prevent +3 attack blink stalkers from just endlessly kiting the zerg army. However, there's a very important change that was introduced in patch 1.1.2:
- Infestor
- Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.
Seems like a small change, but the implications are huge. Now you can prevent stalkers from kiting your army all the time. Because of this, speedling/speedroach/infestor is awesome against mass blink stalkers in the mid-game. If he doesn't have sentries, speedling/speedroach/FG will stop stalkers cold. If he does make sentries, make more roaches, less speedlings. 3-4 infestors should be enough to FG his army at every engagement. Make sure to get burrow, both for roaches, and to protect your infestors from getting blink-sniped by stalkers. Although with range 9 FG, if he tries he'll probably have to blink into a wall of roaches and lose his army.
Once your 3rd is up, go hive. Until you get your ultras out, keep making roach and/or muta (depending on what he makes). keep upgrading armor + melee attack, 3/3 cracklings, 3/5 ultras, and broodlords spitting 3/3 broodlings will destroy any protoss ground army. Have you ever seen 3/3 broodlings? They're like 2 free zerglings with every broodlord attack. Keep your army together so that any attempt to blink under your broodlords will be met with a wall of fully upgraded crackling/ultra. FG will keep the stalkers/colossus in place while your ground army shreds it. If he has immortals + HT, then you need to target the HT with broodlords, and surround his army with crackling/ultra. Micro your ultras to stomp any FF he tries to lay down with sentries. If he starts going immortal-heavy, you need to make more broodlords. If he starts going HT/Archon-heavy, you need to make more ultras
If he goes immortals mid-game to counter your roaches, tech switch to muta.
If he goes HT, stop making infestors (they'll die to HT feedback), and use burrowed roaches until you can get broodlords.
If he goes for stalker/colossus, keep using speedroach/infestor until ultras come out. speedroach/infestor/ultra will kill colossus, especially if you get off some good FG to pin the colossus in place.
It sounds like you're doing mostly the right things, but you NEED infestors for FG to defend against mass +1/+2 attack blink stalkers in the mid-game.
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When I see general robo/gateway army I usually go for roach/hydra (and lings with leftover minerals). Once colossi come in in full force my goal is always to get enough corruptors to survive the transition to broodlord.
He is trouble if you can handle his attacks and come out a bit afterwards with a lot of broodlords. He will likely not have starport tech up and will have a hard time sniping your BLs with blink when they are accompanied by the rest of your army. Just crawl forward towards his base at this point, reenforcing as needed.
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currently 1843 D protoss.
I really think late late game Zerg should be in a highly favorable position over the protoss. You should first be able to out macro the protoss and to have the possibility to replenish your army really fast.
As far as unit composition goes, I think the best late game compositions are mixes of broodlords like broodlords/ultra/hydra, broodlord/ultra/ling, etc.. As long as you keep your broodlords fairly near your ground army there is no way the Protoss can blink with stalkers underneath the broodlords or they will totally get annihilated (it really is all about good positionning). The only way for Protoss to deal effectively against that is to get air but this transition is really hard for protoss to do compared to the zerg, so there shouldn't be any problem there.
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The major issue I saw was that with the style of Zerg you're playing (pretty passive with some harassment) you need to be ahead of Protoss by at least a base or two otherwise it'll be rough. I also didn't really see the point in making so many zerglings early on to break the front and get intel that 1 ov could have. Besides that it hurt your Econ a lot, throughout the game you stayed about even with Protoss in terms of income which means unless you're aggressive you lose.
So yeah, boils down to if you want to keep playing relatively passive you need to expand more and always be a base or two ahead, preferably two. Watch some Idra games he plays about your style.
By the way, not to be a douche but you're only 1800+ with 1k games.... that isn't really impressive, so don't act as if people that aren't in Diamond or at low in Diamond have no idea what they're saying. Yes most times people not in Diamond have less of an idea, but generally even people in Diamond have no idea wtf they're talking about. Just wanted to say, stop the elitist crap especially since you're not elite.
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Mass Muta is my biggest fear in PvZ. That's why instead of the common 2 Robo + however many warpgates i'll go 1 Robo + 1 Stargate and start to produce pheonixes.
Mutas are rediculous to fight against and super strong. Zergs need to build more of them. I'm only at about 1600 Diamond but I think my advice is good for people at all levels.
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humm, not sure how many of these posts actually have a lot of value. I think we must all play different players.
What I do is I go roach/hydra, I get the roaches in front (hotkey two, hydra hotkey 3) then when we engage I watch if they are try to focus the hydras with the collosi which they should be doing I back the hydras up a step or two, causing the collosi to move forward then focus fire with roaches and move the hydras back into targetting immortals. They generally back up the collosi back up once they are focus fired so i go back to letting the roaches hit what they want. We then get into this goofy back and forth game at which point we exchange armies or I come out on top usually. Either way is a win for me.
A lot of times I see protoss switch to a massive colossi based army at that point and i immediatly drop as many mutas as possible (20-30 if its late game and i've kept up with larva). I then proceed to steamroll thier base first then thier army which is usually busy trying to fry one of my expos very slowly.
Vs. HT's is a lot harder and requires i only engage on creep so I can keep the hydras moving around and generally I can only win by letting them run out of minerals.
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i think alot of zerg use to less cracklings in alot of games i just see only ultras attacking and then protoss have an easy day with just 10 immortels there is no way ultras can do any dmg to the protoss army
but with alot 3-3 cracklings its rly hard (ofc z have to come from more then 1 side)
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I'm assuming you can play Zerg and a very competent level So I would strongly suggest riding the mutaling train. Feigning early roach pressure into muta ling is pretty much the most annoying thing to deal with as P vs Z. Straight/pure ling muta can probably get you to 2200, but is alot more susceptible to getting directly stopped. Forcing out even one immortal can put the P significantly behind.
Just keep P inside of his base with your Mutas while you take your 3rd/gold/4th mining base. If he makes phoenix simply get some corrupters to deal with them, With proper micro corrupters and mutas beat phoenix fine, also a critical mass over underproduced phoenix (assuming thats all hes relying on) handles them as well since you will be able to get volleys off while retreating and moving back in.
Also another option if he is going extremely heavy phoenix is just to get an infestor for fungal. If you catch a group of phoenix its pretty crippling if not a gg at that moment.
But assuming you want to stick with more standard/generic play then late game after something like Roach/Hydra/corrupter (Ignoreing the fact that you should probably be head in bases/economy), Just go for ultras or brood lords depending on map and your opponents tech. If he has blink/archons/storm then I would definitely not go for broodlords since that is hardest land counter to them.
Also tactics wise, Nydus and borrowed roaches are completely obnoxious to deal with late game. You can usually pick off some tech structures/production buildings and force the toss to be defensive and make extra observers. This of course is assuming the game is at a lull (where the P is trying to put together his ball.
I'll go out on a limb and assume you usually do not play very aggressively. There are only about 3-4 people I can name that can actually play ZvP passively and do well, but it requires you to be completely pristine on your timings/scouting.
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I can't really help since I've never gone lategame vs. toss without a huge lead where I just mass ultra/ling/muta.
That said, Brood Lords sound like the end all be all, as per usual. As long as you position them well and back em up with say, lings/hydras, blink stalkers won't be an issue and you can deny expos and basically just whittle him down to nothing.
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1400 D Zerg here, throw in my input a little bit. Roach hydra destroy protoss until they get HT or colossus. HT are easilyy nullified if you have ling speed and maybe carapace upgrade, but even then HT are a bit down the tech so you will have time to play accordingly. Against HT>more roaches/more lings, pretty much if they go HT you win, just keep out producing and take it over. Colossus are by far more scary to deal with, it actually forces you to change tech if you didnt go air. If you dont have corruptors or well microed mutas you will prob lose. Against PvZ i go ling roach to>roach hydra, this will hold him down long enough to squeeze some corruptors out. oh yea and very late game..ultras against protoss by FAR...Broods against T, hope u can get T3 in any ZvZ
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you need some infestors
User was warned for this post
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i never saw one zerg win in late game against toss maybe 1 or 2.cause toss units are suppy effective which makes them weak in early game.if you cant kill the gg units (collos) then you better type gg.the only way to weaken toss in mid game to abuse the inmobility of toss units.and tech switch will not work for a good toss cause toss core units (stalkers) are both air and ground.on big maps you have less change on small maps you have change.
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Terran can repair and toss have shields, their units are much more efficient than the zergs. Its all about getting your macro where you can just outproduce them, while having the army to support yourself. If protoss has only 1-2 colossus, you can take that out with a simple roach hydra army with decent micro. But if he has 4-5 colossus...your about to get stomped. So by that time you need to make sure you have a counter for it.
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1400 P here, if you count that as mid diamond 
I lose to Z for a number of different reasons. Things that give me trouble mid-late game:
1) Unexpected transition to muta which is revealed by 8+mutas suddenly showing up at my main expo's probe line. The economic damage can be hard to come back from, but it requires good scouting denial to pull off.
2) Mass hydra with corruptor support (if I went Collosus). During the transition from mid to late game I am moving from Collosus to HT to prevent this, but there is a window of opportunity before I can field storm-ready HTs where this push can be deadly.
3) Very late game a group of Muta, Corruptor and Brood Lord WTFPWNING expo mineral lines (very map dependent).
4) Ultras if I have stayed too heavy on gateway units.
Don't know if that's helpful but that's the stuff I have trouble with. Granted I am far below your level but a couple of those things may still be useful at higher diamond. I won't know til I get there myself 
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On October 26 2010 06:02 Bobsta wrote:
Terran can repair and toss have shields, their units are much more efficient than the zergs. Its all about getting your macro where you can just outproduce them, while having the army to support yourself. If protoss has only 1-2 colossus, you can take that out with a simple roach hydra army with decent micro. But if he has 4-5 colossus...your about to get stomped. So by that time you need to make sure you have a counter for it.
Zerg is also the only race that doesn't have to spend resources to repair their units back to full or only have partly regen like Protoss shields. All zerg buildings and units heal themselves and do so even faster on creep, as well as Queens being able to transfuse (125hp for 50 energy) which is a unit that is great to have for anti-air and to heal important units like Ultras, Mutas, Broodlords etc.
My point is all races have their unique mechanic to "repair" their army/buildings, but only zerg can do it with a spell off of a tier 1 unit or by letting them slowly regen (or quickly if they're roaches and you have burrow).
Toss is more efficient once they reach a certain point and if you fight in a choke as well as not utilizing Zerg's strength (speed). But just looking at cost for cost 1 zealot loses to 4 lings which is 100 minerals and there will be 1 ling left over, but if the zerg micros well and pulls lings back you might lose none. So, it's really hard to say flat out "This races units are more efficient".
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Ultraling and infestor should work ok, i think.. That's how i loose vs zerg most of the time late-game.. And even if you can't beat his army head on, pull a fruitdealer.. Don't atack, expo the hell out of the map and get 19 larvae at each hatch. And when you fight head on, he smashes your 200/200 army, but you can rebuild 200/200 ultras much faster than he can get immortals or colloxen.. He can only reproduce gateway units just as fast. And those are pretty weak.
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If you get to the late game with like 4+ bases, you really wanna have access to all your tech paths..
Go ultra and make him get heavy on immortals. Switch to muta - ling. Pretty much keep changing every time he gets the appropriate counters for your mix, mix it up :-O
Also Broodlords are alot better than you make them out to be. Roach + a few hydras and broodlords is a pain to deal with.
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1600 diamond player, and It is so hard to beat a zerg that mass mutas as long as they keep microing and harassinng, like how idra did at gsl
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I see a lot of people recommend "Ok do one strategy, then just bluntly follow up with an unrelated strategy"
The worst advice someone can give is "In situation X, you should be getting this unit. It would be good NOW."
Every time you are considering this "tech switch" you are inherently behind. I think a lot of people idly toss (no pun intended) this term around, however that doesn't have good game flow to it.
The root of all late game and late game issues is the beginning stages of midgame, which in turn is affected by how well you enter the midgame with your opener.
spire is substantially stronger against robo play- colos and what not with delayed TC, however you will soon start to develop a crutch with mutas.
The one thing I noticed that you didn't talk about was phoenix's. Surprising that at a midhigh level diamond you aren't facing that as much.
Its not that phoenix's are as much a problem lategame, but if you are constantly relying on mutas to give you the edge at the start of the lategame then one day you will face phoenix's midgame and lose right away.
first, we just need to understand what the hydra's place is in PvZ-
the hydralisk is more than a "glass cannon", its high DPS and can shoot air. Sure, its base movement speed is slow and is considered "light", but thats because they aren't a late game strategy, what they can do is lead into one.
If we look at a semi rock paper scissor mechanic,
hydra spine> 4gate
hydra>mass gateway
hydra ling>protoss ground armies in the midgame before T3
Hydras are ONLY these "bad units" until colos or HT's hit. Until then, they are actually one of the best units.
Training yourself "not to use a unit because of its inherent weakness i.e. glass cannon" means that you are instantly closing off different strategies which will eventually expand your lategame advantage significantly.
For instance, if in the midgame we have a very strong ground army, then that means it can be supported by corrupters, but trying to build mutas afterwards is awful because that gas can vitally go somewhere far more important thatn trying to techswitch midgame.
It also seems you have equal hesitancy with the broodlords. You look at its blatent weakness "Oh, its build time is long and its slow." But thats thinking in a manner of "ok, what if I try to get broodlords right now!" instead of planning to get BL's.
The lategame is all about planning and preparation, and then execution then less about "ok what is this magic army composition I'm looking for"
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I personally always have a lot of trouble fighting a ball as zerg, whether its protoss or terran...
The baneling only works good on a very small amount of units, and FG just doesn't seem to deal enough damage and is generally risky. In most situations I lose a good portion of my infestors when I'm casting FGs, and I don't know if its worth it.
I try to keep the game into a harass battle, and just try to keep their expansion/worker count low. But if they successfully turtle and then ball up, I lose 90% of the time. Still can't figure a solution...
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I havent read all the responses but as a 1500-1600 Zerg player myself what i tend to do against those combination tends to do with what ive gone so far in the game. If you went with getting hydras i would also head to ultras and cracklings and use flanks and positioning to beat his ball of death ive won many decisive victories over scary armys with ultras and zerglings charging in the front with a well timed ball of lings from behind and then move in with any hydras you have left over from when they where useful because unless he focus fires hydras their dmg is insane and if he focus fires them you can just move around and let him get raped by the lings and ultras, (PS CREEP SPREAD AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE) also when doing this strat i try to keep a pack of lings running around outside my main army to harass and have the option of counter attacking or pulling them in behind him whenever i want.
If you go muta route as i tend to do just cause i love being a dick with them you need alot of luck and positioning sniping colos and templars as much as possible trying to counter attack with lings and switch towards ultras or corrupters blords with mass ling support.
None of these are auto win strats but i find that these unit comps give me a good chance against toss most of the time tho you just need to outline a basic unit comp understand why ur using things and react your zerg i mean i start out every game planning on timing for my ultras but up untill then i have alot of information to take in that i gotta adapt my strat on the fly
tldr: l2read
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1900ish Zerg here, I find ZvP the hardest matchup still. The problem you describe exists for all of us, and of course with 2 Supply Roaches, weak hydras and also cheap zerglings a 200 maxed army will of course lose against a 200 maxed protoss army, the unit composition doesnt really matter, it makes sense, since his units cost more per supply.
I strongly feel like the best thing is to outmass him more, if he really turtles like you describe and even on 3 base, you just need to have 5-6 bases and at least 1 extra hatchery.
There is no unit composition that can beat the Colossus/Stalker/+X Ball of Death, and your question alone how to beat that is the wrong way to look at ZvP.
Yes, Broodlords are very nice against Protoss if you have a ton of roaches or Ultras with them aswell, also Infestor/Ultra is really good against stalker kiting and so on, but you really have to get your advantage somewhere else.
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I'm only a 1000 Zerg but I'm just gonna echo previous posts and say air, lots of air. Mass muta actually does pretty decent against mass stalkers (although blink stalkers is a little harder) combined with lings, and corrupters shut down collosi pretty hard. The mutas can rape expos and limit his ability to rebuild that "unkillable" toss unit ball. Someone is free to correct me if i'm completely off base.
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The one thing I noticed that you didn't talk about was phoenix's. Surprising that at a midhigh level diamond you aren't facing that as much.
Its not that phoenix's are as much a problem lategame, but if you are constantly relying on mutas to give you the edge at the start of the lategame then one day you will face phoenix's midgame and lose right away.
Im not, thats why i didnt talk about them
It also seems you have equal hesitancy with the broodlords. You look at its blatent weakness "Oh, its build time is long and its slow." But thats thinking in a manner of "ok, what if I try to get broodlords right now!" instead of planning to get BL's.
The lategame is all about planning and preparation, and then execution then less about "ok what is this magic army composition I'm looking for"
Well put, interesting way to see it.
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On October 25 2010 19:46 BreAKmYBank wrote:
3 words. ultralisks. theres nothing that beats like...15 ultralisks off of 4 bases. You are basically unstoppable
Blink stalkers + Immortals really OWN ultras. Blink stalkers also own Brood lords in most cases. Phoenix own Mutas.. etc lots of hard counters.
The thing that messes me up is lots of speedlings with nydus.. really hard to manage when you have nydus popping up everywhere.. I can handle everything else just fine.
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This is a pretty gold thread. Thanks to all the higher Diamond players giving their input.
On October 26 2010 01:02 gautamvirk86 wrote:
wow i was just trying to help a fellow zerg didnt know that you were going to spell check and just hate.
Anyways i got my point across and trust me not everyone has time to sit there and check there grammar and stuff or in any case even give a suggestion.
Punctuation is your friend.
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I have had very similiar issues... actually the exact same problem in ZvP. At around the 1850ish level most of the baddies get weeded out and solid protoss players come into play.
I recently played a game on metropolis where I ran into this exact same problem. The game lasted for around 25 minutes where I would keep pressuring the protoss nonstop. From about the 10 min to 24 minute mark I lost every single engagement with the protoss despite have 40+ food advantage (Although most of it was in drones). As I said... I lost every single battle...but I won the war. I won one battle at the very end with 3-3 Ultra/Crack (After I killed his colossus with corruptors) which promptly ended the game. The only way I have been able to win is literally from doing crazy macro style builds which are semi risky and relatively weak against highly perfected timed pushes.
The main thing I would suggest is to try and keep the protoss player the best you can on 4 gas nodes. Once he gets 6 up and running he can basically afford any army composition he wants.
I have been running some idea's around double expoing when I know my opponent is going to attempt either some sort of fast expand or 2 gate robo expand. I do know however that if you get ling speed + Roaches with a proper ratio of both you can possibly delay his expansion or kill him if he expands too fast but I personally have some issues with this due to some players having excellent forcefield placement.
Muta/Ling Composition would allow you however to maintain map control and keep your opponent on 2 bases for a good period of time while you can easily take your 3rd. This play style would force the Protoss to mass blink stalker/sentry/zealot ~8 heavy gate build. If you can hold off his timed push when hes roughly at 130-150 supply you will win.
Easier said than done but these are my two current ideas on the matchup looking at devations or combination of both.
As for the maps Delta and Stepps, I simply remove them from my map choice altogether. They are very unfriendly towards Zerg players and can be abused by Terran (Delta) or Protoss (Stepps) very easily. The main problem with stepps is that you literally barely even have the time to mass 1 group of larva production in the time it takes your opponent to walk to your base.
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Broodlords roach and ultra is a pretty nasty combo that has knocked me out late game. You could always try to avoid the late game by going mutaling and harassing the hell out of the mineral line.
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On October 26 2010 10:25 Sanasante wrote:
I have had very similiar issues... actually the exact same problem in ZvP. At around the 1850ish level most of the baddies get weeded out and solid protoss players come into play.
Yeah, another thing that bugs me is that since I got to like 1600 is getting harder and harder to improve by laddering simply because you either fight against one of this original idiots who either 6 pool zvz, do a 1 base allin or tech rush with Terran or 4 warpagates EVERYGAME so they either fail horribly or you fail to scout/ get unlucky and die.
Or you play against the exact opposite and die after a long and painful battle.
Ive taken a personal policy nowadays to mock every Protoss who 4 warpgates me simply because its idiotic how is ALL THEY know. (that or a cannon rush at the ramp)
The main thing I would suggest is to try and keep the protoss player the best you can on 4 gas nodes. Once he gets 6 up and running he can basically afford any army composition he wants.
Thing is, the only maps where you can avoid this is Blistering, Scrap Station, Lost Temple (which doesnt really counts because of vsT) and Metalopolis close positions. Also i dont want to rely on trying to end the game on mid-game because its not really a solution. Zerg (all races in fact) should be able to fight in all stages of the game as long as you are on par or ahead on econ.
As for the maps Delta and Stepps, I simply remove them from my map choice altogether. They are very unfriendly towards Zerg players and can be abused by Terran (Delta) or Protoss (Stepps) very easily. The main problem with stepps is that you literally barely even have the time to mass 1 group of larva production in the time it takes your opponent to walk to your base.
Yeah the map pool is so incredible bad, you pretty much have the maps "where you CAN win" and the maps "where you WILL lose" unless its a mirror or your opponent is WAY worse than you.
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I was having a lot of trouble at the 1200 diamond level until i started to really focus on muta harass. In the harass I'm trying to force the P into something, whether that's blink stalkers or cannons, or pheonix, etc. While harassing i get roach/ling to defend and expand to 3 or more bases, dumping all extra minerals to more hatches/lings/upgrades. Almost all my gas goes into mutas and spire upgrades.
What you want to see is is pheonix/VR in which case you mix in one production cycle of corruptors. The Corruptors will smash any pheonix defense as well as punish robo bay units with corruption and A2A attack. In one game, i switches to exclusively corruptors when i saw 3 stargate pheonix. After killing all the pheonix, i teched to hive and morphed a ton of BL's. When he switched to blink stalkers to counter the BL's i marched over him with ultra/ling.
I think this matchup, if it gets past the rush/early push stage, really is dependent on the zerg to dictate the pace. If you let P get the army he wants, the large battle will happen on your doorstep and no matter how fast you can replenish he will crush you. If you are pushing the pace the whole game, the large battle takes place at his front door, or in the open, in which case you can do all the tech switching people are talking about.
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I'm not sure if any of you have the same problem, but when I get to ZvP late game, I generally have no supply left to get anything. I usually go for roach hydra mid game, then upon getting to hive tech i only have about 20 supply left for any hive tech units with like 100 supply into hydra/roach and like 80 supply in drones. If I attempt to attack them with the roach hydra to free up supply, they roflstomp the army and march towards me while some units are desperately producing. I am not economically behind (4bases v 2bases) but usually ahead. How do you guys cope with the supply problem?
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On November 12 2010 10:36 peanutter wrote:
I'm not sure if any of you have the same problem, but when I get to ZvP late game, I generally have no supply left to get anything. I usually go for roach hydra mid game, then upon getting to hive tech i only have about 20 supply left for any hive tech units with like 100 supply into hydra/roach and like 80 supply in drones. If I attempt to attack them with the roach hydra to free up supply, they roflstomp the army and march towards me while some units are desperately producing. I am not economically behind (4bases v 2bases) but usually ahead. How do you guys cope with the supply problem?
Well if you have tech and recources to make T3 army then just get rid from your supply. By that time you should have drops, just send 2 ovies with hydra/roach in one exp, and 2 in the other and most of the time he will try to defend this. If he just attacks you straight then it depends on map - let's say on steppes you probably gonna lose, cause ultras take ages to make.
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This actually really good thread, I was having lot's of problems with late game ZvP.
Most of you say that zerg should pressure toss in early/mid game so he won't be that strong in lategame, but the question is how should I do this with my ground army? I mean pushing with roaches/hydra while he does not have collosus can loose you a game if he just uses good force fields and traps your army. Drops/nydus are too expensive mid game. Tech switch to mutas after hydra/roach? I don't think I am going to have enough gas for that.
Edit: sorry for double post.
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On November 12 2010 10:36 peanutter wrote:
I'm not sure if any of you have the same problem, but when I get to ZvP late game, I generally have no supply left to get anything. I usually go for roach hydra mid game, then upon getting to hive tech i only have about 20 supply left for any hive tech units with like 100 supply into hydra/roach and like 80 supply in drones. If I attempt to attack them with the roach hydra to free up supply, they roflstomp the army and march towards me while some units are desperately producing. I am not economically behind (4bases v 2bases) but usually ahead. How do you guys cope with the supply problem?
I just can't help it, with 20 supply you can get 40 banelings. A 2000/1000 investment that will completely annihilate ANY protoss ball. If you drop them right on top of his army you basically can just a-move into their base since they spent the last 20 minutes accumulating all the gas and tech required to get that big ball of death.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167126
Enjoy, it has brought me probably the only victories in ZvP that were really clear cut and dry without the usual head banging against his defenses for 10 minutes even though you are dramatically ahead.
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^ That's an idea...
The problem with roach/hydra is you are not squeezing enough money per supply.
roach is 75/25 per 2 supply
bane is what? 100/50 per 1 supply! You can really sink a lot of things in there.
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When I'm not put under much pressure and allowed to tech to the late-game. I try using infestor fungal and ultra with some combination of roach/hydra/muta. Add a few corruptors to flank retreating collosi. Make sure to fungal stalkers before you engage to stop blink bs.
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I'm about 1.2k diamond, but I have some suggestions.
If there is a small rush distance, I FE, defend their first push and pump speed roach and hydra with +1 range attack. With a 3rd queen constantly popping creep tumours, I make a little road to the protoss base and end it before they start saturating their 2nd base / get colossus range.
If it's late game with 3, 4 bases each, I tech fast to broodlords and get hydra, and do a slow death push with the broodlords in front killing everything, and hydras behind to def the broodlords against blinking stalkers, void rays etc while being safe from colossus lasers.
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I ussually use to loose to mutas.Depending on map (the large the distance..the better for the zerg) u can go muta...if he tries any blink stalker cuteness,just run away.Dont forget to build more queens and have ur near death mutas tranfused(i know most of the zergs dont do that), cause no mutas=no harass.As long as u keep him in his base u should be fine.
If he throws down an stargate,dont panic.First of all it takes more then average micro to dont get ur phoenixes killed.Second,u can get 2 infestors...and keep them burowed(if u have burrow tech) and fuganl the phoenixes.If the toss losses his phoenixes his really behind.
The only time toss has an easier time is on close positions 4 player map or 2 player maps,cause he can either 4 gate u...or 3 gate blink stalkers.But that can be taken care off by scouting.
Like i said,the answer to ur needs are mutas.The only counters to them are blink stalkers(only mildly effective..as u can defend ur base +expo,but u cant expand more on the map) and phoenixes(which u can deal as i said above).
Usually u go for mutas..get expoes and transition to cracklings/ultras.This way Idra beat oGsInka in a replay.
U said ur an player who likes to experiment new stuff no ?
Well try baneling drops on HT (fruitdealer style)..i know it sounds risky..but 2 banelings fully upgraded can take 1 HT off.Dont diss me for this ideea,jus trying to provide new ideeas for the zerg comunity .
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as a protoss player i find that muta ling hurts the most if i didnt open or dont have a stargate running.
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On October 25 2010 18:18 skindzer wrote:
BTW Protoss players are welcomed to say what beats them :3
mutalisks & speedlings.. kills me every time..
thats why I don't like it to get to late game as a Protoss v Zerg xD
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Those who say they get beat by mutalisks and zerglings clearly arent using forcefield and good cannon placement enough. No offense.
I have litterally no answer to the 3gate sentries expand -> 2 robo collosi 6 gateway stalker spam. This is the build I CONSISTENTLY lose to. I use muta/ling in all of my ZvZ.
I have tried agressive expanding into hydra spam, didn't hold it off. I do baneling drops in their mineral lines, but those are easily held off by a couple of stalkers/cannons. I do ling into muta a lot. But it seems whatever I try, once the death army of tons of stalkers and collosi gets up, I might as well just gg. Its like the way fourgate used to be, but now those are more easily held off, protoss are moving on to the next big death push.
Does any zerg have a build or tips that hold off this push consistantly? Because i'm really getting fed up with it.
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Late game Zerg is the same against T or P: you will most likely lose 200/200 battles. You need to have enough economy/production that you almost instantly replenish your army.
This is especially true against Thor and Colossi based armies, since these units take quite a long time to rebuild...
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I watched Fruitdealer vs some P teammate of his the other day and all FD did was constantly try and engage the P's army when he only has a single Colossus up, and he'd just keep trading his Roach ball for the P's ball.
Colossus become ridiculous when the P gets a certain amount of them ie critical mass. The difference between 2 Colossus and 3 Colossus is pretty noticeable. If a P ever gets 5 of them up I lose everytime.
So I think FD's commando Roaches are probably not a bad way to deal with P. Constantly pressure and force army trades while his Colossus count is low. Deny expansions and take expansions yourself. I haven't played a ZvP since I saw that match oddly enough but this is what I'm going to start trying.
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On November 12 2010 22:41 Sniffy wrote:
I watched Fruitdealer vs some P teammate of his the other day and all FD did was constantly try and engage the P's army when he only has a single Colossus up, and he'd just keep trading his Roach ball for the P's ball.
Colossus become ridiculous when the P gets a certain amount of them ie critical mass. The difference between 2 Colossus and 3 Colossus is pretty noticeable. If a P ever gets 5 of them up I lose everytime.
So I think FD's commando Roaches are probably not a bad way to deal with P. Constantly pressure and force army trades while his Colossus count is low. Deny expansions and take expansions yourself. I haven't played a ZvP since I saw that match oddly enough but this is what I'm going to start trying.
I don't think FD is the best guy to copy ZvP from. From what he has shown us in GSL he seems to think ZvP is his worst MU and that has also shown in the way he played againt oGsInCa, all-inning every single game.
Also, if the P does a proper sim-city you won't be able to keep his colossus count low with 4 range roaches. It just doesn't work. You might be able to delay his tech and get your advantage that way, but I feel that if the Protoss knows what he's doing he will get his robo units up and then roflstomp through any amount of roaches.
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Infestors.
You can either neural parasite the colossi, or fungal growth the stalkers. Once the protoss ball can`t move, go in for the kill. The key is to use your corruptors to get the colossus out of position. Every decent protoss knows if he loses that colossus advantage early, he`s done in a 200 food fight.
The same way TLO started this fake-nuke to rush strat in TvT, you are aiming to get the P out of position. As soon as the colossus moves to give you a flank, CHARGE.
Also don't forget to forcefully skew their tech. If you go mass roach, and they stop colossus production for immortals, switch to mutas.
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On October 25 2010 19:53 impirion wrote:
Pretty sure 10 or so immortals would massacre 15 ultras. If you are getting 15 ultras, he probably has enough resources to make 10 immortals.
Yes, but you can get 15 ultras in a single production cycle. The 10 immortals would most likely take 5 cycles (assuming 2 robos). In the time it takes to make that many immortals the damage would already be done.
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Just from reading the OP I'd say your problem is that you don't scout enough. It should be possible to flank on any map if you know the exact moment your opponent is pushing and set up your forces to come in from two sides at a good ambush location. Of course, this is impossible if you don't know he's pushing until he's at your front door...
Personally I'm not a fan of roaches. I don't think they justify taking up 2 food late game. The same goes for mutas. Of course that's just my preference as mutas can be very effective vs protoss. My plan as zerg is to leapfrog tech from ling to roach early game to hydra to infestors mid game to spire tech to broodlords late game and ultimately end up with a hydra/infestor/broodlord mix. Ultras are too easily taken out by the stalker/immortal unit composition but fungal + broodlords should be very strong especially now that fungaled stalkers can no longer blink.
I would say another thing missing in your play is using zerglings to snipe expansions. You say you can't keep the protoss from expanding after he takes his third, but it should be easy to deny his third. Just position your army so he has to move to defend somewhere else, then run in with 24 speedlings and snipe his nexus or kill all his probes. It should be easy if you are already teching to ultras (i.e. +2melee/+2carapace by the time his third is going up).
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On November 12 2010 23:25 SugarBear wrote:
I would say another thing missing in your play is using zerglings to snipe expansions. You say you can't keep the protoss from expanding after he takes his third, but it should be easy to deny his third. Just position your army so he has to move to defend somewhere else, then run in with 24 speedlings and snipe his nexus or kill all his probes. It should be easy if you are already teching to ultras (i.e. +2melee/+2carapace by the time his third is going up).
I agree with this, and this is the first thing I thought as well. If it gets to lategame, you should have 3/3 cracklings, which run over photon cannons like nothing. So my suggestion would be to play defense with a defensive line at the edge of your creep, and do some crack drops. 3 overlords full of lings can take out an undefended expo very quickly. Alternatively, you could try nydus play to harass with larger units like roach/hydra/ultra. If your harass is able to take out his production buildings or his tech, you can get yourself into a good situation to trade armies.
If you want to engage the Protoss army, maybe it would be worth it to have some neural parasite. But I like this idea less.
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How do you deal with the Archon/Stalker/Immortal deal?
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Your macro is god-awful, your apm isn't even close enough to what you need to effectivly control everything you can control, work on that and also spire against stargate/mass wg isn't a very smart idea.
Roach is your KEY and CORE unit in ZvP, 95% of my games I win because I macro up like a maniac, get maxed on roaches with or close to 2-2 and just rinse his maingate because roaches are cost effective and extremely extremely good with the new range change since you can now easily micro up so you get a double concave shooting and not half your roaches running around in the background doing nothing.
If you see a stargate or stargate unit, put down a hydra den but don't commit to hard into them, he WANTS you to dump alot of your resources into hydras so he can switch colossi. Even if he doesn't commit into 5-6 pheonix for contain play like most people favors nowadays they're still pretty decent units and they will make him switch into colossi which roaches w/ speed and upgrades completely rinse.
You turn his plan into yours and put him in a trap if you see what I'm getting at.
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I'm about your level and everything with zerg, with the exact same problems, the only i have truthfully found to work at all it win before that, though i know it isn't a counter or anything but it is the onlything i find. If i play vs a protoss on something like Steppes ( which is a LOL all in itself ) i just do a 2 base huge all in push or a quick 3 base all in push. You can't be zerg playing macro on maps like that.
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I try to open roach hydra and expand. That holds off any gateway/pheonix play. Protoss players usually respond by getting collosus. So I just poke and see what he's getting and let him see my army is mainly ground units. And then I tech switch to mutalisk. I usually lose the first push but I kill most of his army (usually). At this point i rally point in mass roach and ling as his army will be small and roaches are great in small numbers. I think the key to winning is to exploit his army composition. They will either have more gateway units or more robo units. And as long as you can win the air battle and keep a couple mutas alive you can push him back. Just focus down the sentries and stalkers, He wont be able to push out with just collosus and zealots.
In my experience, they will either be on 2 or 3 bases. A ling at every expansion will let you know when he tries to expand. If you are lucky he will push out as his 3rd is going up. Then all you have to do is win the battle and deny the expansion. If he is on 3 bases, then win the battle and tech up to ultralisk/infestor/roach. And harass him like crazy and force him to make units from his warp gate.
~1700 diamond, but protoss is one of my better match ups.
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They totally buffed infestors to counter blink stalker in zvp. I can't see a good reason late game to not have infestors in any matchup for any reason whatsoever. You can lock down an army or prevent it from running/pursuing, you can make a wall of infested terrans, you can stop air harass. If you aren't making infestors, i don't think you should be focused too much on a creative straight-forward army mix until you can comfortably fit infestors into your army.
Also, havoc is spelled with a c, not a k.
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I am a 1900 toss player and this is what I am having difficulty dealing with late game. You basically avoid fighting the big ball and go for harass. You drop/ nydus worm their main. This allows
1) the toss player to back off from the center, which then creates more room to harass other expansions.
2) if you're lucky you will be able to take down critical structures such as gateways or robobays.
3) kill some units from the toss ball.
Then you just create a havoc by attacking other expansions. Eventually, if you did a good job harassing expansions, then you will be able to take down the toss ball
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On November 12 2010 23:15 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 19:53 impirion wrote:
Pretty sure 10 or so immortals would massacre 15 ultras. If you are getting 15 ultras, he probably has enough resources to make 10 immortals. Yes, but you can get 15 ultras in a single production cycle. The 10 immortals would most likely take 5 cycles (assuming 2 robos). In the time it takes to make that many immortals the damage would already be done.
Yeah, you can get 15 ultras in a single production cycle. if you have THAT many resources stockpiled up, which you won't have if your macro is any good. You can get 15 faster than a protoss can get 10 immortals from the starting time, but protoss tech is much quicker to get to than zerg tech (especially t2 vs t3) and if they anticipate ultra and start making immortals when they see your ultra den (ofc this gives you a big opportunity to just go spire but let's say for the sake of argument you still went ultra) you'd be hardpressed to make enough ultras to counter his immo numbers especially considering you'd have to make other units to deal with them.
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On October 25 2010 19:11 Yokoblue wrote:
I'm a 1800 protoss and what really kills me... Is Tech switch to mass muta in mid-late game.
With +1 attack you can take out photon easily and kill pretty much all probes. Even with blinks stalker, if im not prepare for it (thats why its the tech switch that is killing me), the lack of mobility and the strengh of mutas harass kill me.
What i mean is that you have to go like... like you always go in mid game with roach or something... and then tech switch hard to muta that you already had +1 with. Anyway you need the spire to get corruptor midgame. When you have around 1 page 1.5 page (around 30) mutalisk) its almost imposible to counter. If him not supply cap because i have too many collosy or immortal, i wont have the right composition if you dont engage and snipe HT. (You have to have around 3 base to tech switch to that... otherwise you wont have enough ressource)
Just my 2 cents
i was just going to say mass mutas. stalkers are good vs mutas but if you have them outnumbered and they dont have anything else to shoot air they will be pretty defensless once you kill all the stalkers.
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ultralisks
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On November 14 2010 07:42 BreAKmYBank wrote:
ultralisks
Where do these people come from? For gods sake stop such nonsense.
@ OP
I'm a 2400 Diamond Zerg and well it's kinda impossible to beat a Toss Army in the very late game cost effectively.
I mean just the value of a Zealots compared to 4 Lings at this point of the game is so much higher.
I especially have huge troubles against Immortals, Archons, HTs and Zealots. Well and forcefields of course. Late game I always want Ultralisks to even have a chance of engaging a battle without having have your army blocked off but... Immortals and Zealots just do soooo well cost-wise against Ultralisks it's not even funny. And it's not like Stalker or Archons would do bad against them, they're pretty strong too.
If you then consider that the Toss can also add in Air oder HTs you'll quickly realize that you're in deep trouble.
I'm having so huge problems myself I don't even know what advice to give. I'd say never let them get 3 bases as 5 bases for you will only be a minor advantage duo to a too high worker count cutting into your already less cost-effective army... but. There's really no way to engage a Toss using canons and Sentries to prevent you from attacking.
And the problem is, you always have to be prepared for an attack and thus can't just immediately tech to Ultras / Broodlords or Drone up hard.
And unless you spot their observers he'll know your unit composition perfectly ;P
So I guess I'll suggest you always try to win the game with a Roach, Hydra few Corrupters army by trading armies when you got 2 and he only 1 base. Depends a lot on the map though. Works best on Caverns imo.
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On November 14 2010 09:39 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:Where do these people come from? For gods sake stop such nonsense. @ OP I'm a 2400 Diamond Zerg and well it's kinda impossible to beat a Toss Army in the very late game cost effectively. I mean just the value of a Zealots compared to 4 Lings at this point of the game is so much higher. I especially have huge troubles against Immortals, Archons, HTs and Zealots. Well and forcefields of course. Late game I always want Ultralisks to even have a chance of engaging a battle without having have your army blocked off but... Immortals and Zealots just do soooo well cost-wise against Ultralisks it's not even funny. And it's not like Stalker or Archons would do bad against them, they're pretty strong too. If you then consider that the Toss can also add in Air oder HTs you'll quickly realize that you're in deep trouble. I'm having so huge problems myself I don't even know what advice to give. I'd say never let them get 3 bases as 5 bases for you will only be a minor advantage duo to a too high worker count cutting into your already less cost-effective army... but. There's really no way to engage a Toss using canons and Sentries to prevent you from attacking. And the problem is, you always have to be prepared for an attack and thus can't just immediately tech to Ultras / Broodlords or Drone up hard. And unless you spot their observers he'll know your unit composition perfectly ;P So I guess I'll suggest you always try to win the game with a Roach, Hydra few Corrupters army by trading armies when you got 2 and he only 1 base. Depends a lot on the map though. Works best on Caverns imo.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167126
You can instantly remove all zealots, sentries and HTs from his army like this. Then your 2/2 or 3/3 lings can clean up the rest.
Seriously HT isn't a problem if you drop banelings onto them lol.
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I have a few suggestions on what has worked for me (former Z player playing as P).
If they have a stalker/sentry/colossus type of army get a few infestors mid game. Ling/infestor into ultras will decimate his ball. Fungal Growth will stop all kiting, and once your ultras get into the fray, you will win. Use Neural Parasite in the mid game if they have 3 or less colossi.
If the P has a Zealot/HT/sentry/archon type of build, you should honestly get banelings. Banelings are not used often in ZvP, but they do insane damage to everything in that army besides archons. A Ling/Roach/Bling build will destroy this.
As mentioned before, a transition into mass mutas will destroy most P armies. The best defense late game for mass muta is an archon/HT/zealot build and just killing your base. Anything else will crumble. Mass phoenix can work, but then you can exploit the P ground weakness with mass lings/hydras.
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What almost everyone is ignoring in this thread is pro forcefield and guardian shield usage. A good Protoss can totally negate your mass lings while he destroys your mutas with cost effective sentry/stalker comp. Bane dropping will help this but not until you are 3-4 base which would be approaching late game.
A good toss will scout your ling muta with hallucinations and delay robo while he spams cost effective gateway units and denies any significant muta harass. A switch to roach/hydra will reduce your map contol to nil and put you behind on attack upgrades (he'll be 2-1 pretty quick to your at best 0-2). You'll have a delayed hive and no where near enough gas for ultras.
I haven't been able to find a way to avoid getting totally abused by pro ff usage or stop the toss from taking his natural for free (ff and building placement makes roach/ling attacks early game pointless). I usually enter the mid game on even ground with a toss with no real way to attack if he slowly takes his 3rd while adjusting his army comp to mine.
I'm a 2100 Zerg and right now zvp is my worst matchup vs competent players.
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http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4357579/
Ultras AND broodlords is hard to deal with, blink stalkers can't really get in there without totally dying to ultralisks. Blink makes them very clumped and very +to armored splashable. Then, once neither player is maxed, you remax with roaches and don't let the protoss max again, and keep piling on roaches. 3/3 roaches vs 3/3 stalkers is much better for the roaches than 0/0 roach vs 0/0 stalker is, as the stalkers are still dealing the same damage once armor is taken into account, but the roaches are dealing more. The only reason you don't do roaches all the way is because they cost 2 supply, but as long as he can't get capped with his super gas heavy composition that doesn't matter.
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I never lost to roach and hydra unless I made some huge mistakes myself. The only thing I lose to is mutas.
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A strategy most people overlook when you are engaging a massive battle with lets say Hydra and Roach vs a stalkers colossus army...Bring a crap load of overlords with your units flying over top and make them spread creep....it distracts the stalkers a lot gives extra vision makes it harder for him to micro..and just overall is a scarier force. I have won many battles where I probably should of Lost because of Overlords flying above my army.
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Don't lose too many mutalisk. Don't forget to tech to hive. Muta-Ultraling is the way to go IMO. Blink stalkers easily kite Ultras. Mutas can catch up and constantly do damage. ZvP is my most troublesome matchup as well but if the game goes past like 20 minutes I feel like I'm in good shape (unless I'm on fuckin jungle basin or blistering sands or something where it's fucking impossible to take a third =P). ~1700
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In my opinion the baneling is the most underused and one of the most effective units in ZvP lategame. Drop them, roll them, do whatever. They decimate just about anything clumped when dropped, and deal with zealots easily, leaving your ultra/ling or muta/ling army free to decimate the rest. (Note, wth muta ling: Blings kill zealots/sentry easily, Then slings and mutas rip through the remaining unts.
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If you ever get to the extreme late game, with maxed 200/200 armies for each of you, try this:
- make sure you have a lot of larva and resources banked (make extra hatches if necessary)
- when your armies clash, make sure to take out one of his capabilities (for example, take out his anti-air)
- rebuild instantly with a tech switch
- overwhelm his now one-dimensional army
I saw Idra do this once -- he took out the stalkers and templars, then tech switched to mutas and totally cleaned up. I've tried it myself in late game (diamond) a couple times and it worked both times. Alternately, you could take out the collosi and templars and then overwhelm with ground troops.
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i dont try to win late game. my standard zvp build these days is speedlings -> roaches -> hydras
slings/roaches to fend off the 4 gate or variation thereof.
hydras + roaches for a 2base timing push when i see an expo go down. hydras are so misused. they fucking demolish a toss army that isnt properly controlled. yes even collosi if there arent enough gateway meatshields, 12ish hydras +2 attack 2 shot a collosus. this has been ending games right here. i go into the game with this as my plan and start getting carapace and ranged upgrades asap. i attack when +2 ranged finishes, ill either have +1 or+2 carapace at this point.
if this attack fails then its time to regroup and consider a tech switch.
the reason i started experimenting with this strat is that most toss i play tend to go semi-all in with their first attack (whatever it may be, 4 gate, 3 gate robo, stargate). if i fend off the attack and manage to hold onto most of my drones and my expo then i am usually at a big advantage. i push this by droning up a bit more and then exploding with roaches/hydras. if the toss expos he is dead. if he is massing for another push then u will have enough to fend it off, and the game will be over if he is on 1 base.
the way it generally ends is the toss expansion is just starting to ramp up production. there are 3-5 cannons at the choke, less then 15 total gateway units, and 2 maybe 3 collosi. 20 roaches +15 hydras will win u the game at this point. if his units are out of position or he isnt paying attention he will be crippled before he even knows what happened. hydra dps is insane.
obviously this build wont counter everything toss could throw at u, but for the normal 1 base attacks that toss do this works well. 1400 diamond for what its worth.
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I'm not rly good, (1600 zerg) but when it goes late game, i find drops invaluable. You can take control of all the island expansions, drop units on collosi to kill them, (if you didn't go spire, then you can just get corruptors) baneling drop HT mobs, etc. When your maxed, you can also do other kinds of drops just to kill pylons and lower your supply for higher tech units like ultras.
bling drops are super effective and I don't see why more people aren't utilising them. 4-6 banelings can kill most of a mineral line, and your only loosing 200/100.
Another thing I've been experimenting with is burrow, 9/10 times when a protoss goes to kill a far off expansion they wont bring detection and you can just burrow all your drones and queen, then backstab them.
Even with these sorts of unorthodox strategies, i still don't win lategame very much... Anyone else been trying this sort of stuff?
*edit* seems like massive numbers of hive tech units is the only answer, but the transition period is a long and extremely painful one...
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as a protoss, don't make too many ultra if toss already have like 5~6 immortoals but instead use ultra just to break force field and swarm in with roach/hyrdra/ling whatever units you got. Is also nice to have some broodlord as well
Also, protoss in late game can really harass you everywhere with warp prisms, so make sure you keep you expo safe.
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Go mass mutas and speedlings, confine toss to two base by threat of constant harass, and macro like a madman (including upgrades). Toss will push out once he has a sizable force, but you can repel this (virtually an army trade). The difference is, you on more bases with more upgrades > 2 base toss.
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OP, you mention trying to transition to t3 in late/v.late game but it falling to blink stalkers/etc, I am assuming by this point if P army is blink stalker heavy you are utilizing fungal growth? At all levels of play it seems that infestors are still seriously underused, and while I am not high diamond, lategame v toss there are quite a few applications for fungal growth, especially coupled with broodlords.
If you are superfancy I guess you could try NP as well, but as its utility is highly situational (luck dependent), generally using FG is enough.
Not trying to say this is your only problem as there is a lot of other decent advice here, but just curious.
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my prefer composition to late game is infestor broodlords because u can deal with any composition of protoss is really important range attack upgrade im top diamond
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On September 18 2012 20:29 bacoatc wrote:
my prefer composition to late game is infestor broodlords because u can deal with any composition of protoss is really important range attack upgrade im top diamond
Why did you bump this? This thread is from 2010 and back then Diamond was the highest league. Modlock please.
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Oh my god! This is the most epic necro I have ever seen! Gw man :D
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160414.jpg)
