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Hello!, im a 1800+ Zerg player with over 1k games on ladder, i say this not as some way of brag (lol) but to make clear that if you are "Platinum but could be diamond if i tried" or low diamond or Gold but constantly beat your diamond friends or whatever, your opinion is not really welcomed.
I was really confident on my ZvP until this past weeks Ive hit a barrier that I havent been able to overcome, and, being a player that likes to try new ideas/combinatios , I still havent found anything that lets me win ZvP once it gets to late game or super late game (max upgrades etc..)
Theres no combination of unit that i can produce thatn can comfortably beat the Protoss ball, an after 3 bases the P can pretty much equal the Zerg production constantly so trying to simplify our armies so i can outproduce him an overrun his army/bases is out of the question.
Also, backstabbing becomes harder because in the best of cases youll only have creep up to the middle of the map.
Unit issues:
The P ball will mostly consist on one of these:
-Mass Stalkers with 4+ Collosi a few Inmortals and even fewer sentries.
-Mass Stalkers with 5-7 Archons + Zealots + 4-5 High Templars.
Obviously Hydras are out of the question because they are made of glass and crawl, and trying choguling tends to be pretty much the same cause a smart P will just add like 2 - 3 more sentries and either the Collosi or the Storms will melt the lings in like 4 in game seconds.
Broodlords besides the fact that i could listen all the songs from Pink Floyds - Animals (ie long) before i could make one get destroyed by blink unless i use them to annoy workers on expos but i havent found them all the useful yet. Plus they take quite some time to move.
This leaves me with some combination of Ultra,Roach + some spare situational units. (Maybe lings, maybe Hydras in low numbers) and Corruptors if the opponent is Collosi heavy.
Now the thing is, in both combination of units the stalkers can kite my units and most of the time the Protoss will be able to decide when to engage so it will be either on my side of the map if hes ahead or in his side where he also has cannons to help and can reinforce faster.
Now the biggest problem with a Collsi heavy combination is that if i dont do a GOOD surround or a fast retreat my units will get MELTED because after the 4th Collosi shit starts to die FAST and if i lose the battle without killing the Collosi, or even then, its insta GG.
Now the problem with a more templar oriented combination is that, all in all, is their units that are countering mine. Because even if Ultras counter Stalkers they have Archons and zealots as meatshield + storms and also because of this meatshield stalkers can abuse more their range on roaches.
Map issues
-Steppes of War: pretty obvious, you cant really prevent the P from taking an expa after he takes his third and late game revolves around both armies looking at each other constantly, surrounding is pretty much impossible (at best youll be able to hit from 2 directions with something like 45º of separation).
Also, trying some fancy stuff like dropping or Nydus can easily cost me the game if it fails because he can just 1a push into my main and hell be there in like 3 seconds. This is true even in early game actually because the map is FUCKING SMALL.
I ended up thumbing down this maps after a while.
-Shakuras Plateu: Same as Steppes but "the opposite", the maps is LARGE, but surrounding in late game IS IMPOSSIBLE, and most of the times our armies will have to fight head on because of the way the middle of the map is designed. There are some destructibles rock but the gap is small and it can be covered with a FF. Its extremely hard to stop the protoss from getting expas. After a while well both have the same amount and im done.
-Delta Quadrant: On close positons only, the P can easily defend and take 3 bases and he can constantly threaten with an attack so you cant go crazy pumping drones because he can easily see your army and find a weak moment to attack. Most of the time theyll just sit on 3 bases maxing upgrades and move out when +3 attack is done.
What makes it even harder is that the transition to Ultras can be EXTREMELY fragile if the P is pressuring you. (Also true on steppes) Also battles will tend to be in the middle, and again, if i lose, insta gg cause he can easily go straight to my base and even if i can keep up with the amount of units i wont be able to make flank his army.
Also thumbing down any of this maps means having to play ZvT on Lost Temple or Jungle Basin. (What an awesome map pool).
Here a rep showing the late game issues (i kinda gave up after i saw him taking his third cause i knew what was coming. Also dont take too seriously the early game cause i was pretty much falling asleep (4am).
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BTW Protoss players are welcomed to say what beats them :3
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Would hydras combined with nydus/ overlord drops to increase mobility off creep work at all? I am only a lowly gold, so just throwing an idea out there. So roach hydra with corruptors to deal with the collosi heavy builds? This should be able to take them in a straight fight on creep where hydras are almost a decent speed, and overlord drops/nydusing with hydras can abuse the fact that a collosus or templar army are relatively immobile and harass them?
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I'm a 1800 protoss and what really kills me... Is Tech switch to mass muta in mid-late game.
With +1 attack you can take out photon easily and kill pretty much all probes. Even with blinks stalker, if im not prepare for it (thats why its the tech switch that is killing me), the lack of mobility and the strengh of mutas harass kill me.
What i mean is that you have to go like... like you always go in mid game with roach or something... and then tech switch hard to muta that you already had +1 with. Anyway you need the spire to get corruptor midgame. When you have around 1 page 1.5 page (around 30) mutalisk) its almost imposible to counter. If him not supply cap because i have too many collosy or immortal, i wont have the right composition if you dont engage and snipe HT. (You have to have around 3 base to tech switch to that... otherwise you wont have enough ressource)
Just my 2 cents
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1500 toss here .. just a quick pointer, almost all my lost PvZ games are against air-based strategies. When I pick the Robo tech route, Corrupters ruin my day, and when I go for Templars they get sniped by Mutas. And yeah, when I take it to the skies myself via Starport route, my ground army can't match his.
I know this is no direct strategy advice, but whenever I scout a Spire going up I prepare for a hard game - and it's not because of Broolords.
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seriously i m hving the same issue big time, n wt i am plannig to do it jus use more Infestors, hving 3 to 5 of these babies would really help cuz if u r using anything other than the hydras n by that i mean ANYTHING other than the hydras, u can easy get in range to use the mind control thingy, which i dont noe the name off.
I imagine hving lings roaches plus ultras plus 4 infestors u can easy use mind control on the 3 or 4 colosus, not only ur reducing toss's DPS but ur also increasing ur DPS at the same time, n if toss is going to focus fire ur infestors who are sitting way behind ur close range army then there power ball is gonna be scaterd n ur get the surround beter n KILL TOSS.
Again this is what i ma have to do, i dont really use infestors n i recomend infestor now, LOL one time i used infestors to nutral parasite there mothership NOW THAT WAS GREAT
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This is more of a discussion rather then a hard evidenced answer.
But hydra roach is a pretty damn strong, as long as there isn't coll out. If you can neutralize the col, hydra roach is pretty effective. Even hydras can dodge storms with good creep spread(which you should have) This can be done with corrupters (duh) or maybe using ultras to tank col shots and negate ff's.
But yeah, blizzard has claimed that zerg is supposed to be a macro oriented race with multiple pronged attacks, so their isn't a great ultimate zerg ball that t and p get. So their isn't a great answer.
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depends alot on his tech and unit combination.
overall broodlords and utlras are the obvious choice. doesnt hurt to use broodlords like guardians tho (move em behind enemy expos cliff/whatever and shut it down).
in the end you just have to completly overun him with pure mass.
just dont let him get into some turtle expanding style. you will NOT beat the P once it gets really lategame. a solid warpgate mix with HT,archons and immortals will roll over evrything you can throw at him.storm hardcounters evry Z unit except ultras/roaches which get raped by warpgate/immortal/archon. its not even close. deny the 3rd if possible/kill him earlier and absolutely deny the 4th. thats all you can do.
oh and small drops can be very effective. upgraded cracklings eat buildings ins econds. drop some and use em to snipe tech buildings.
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On October 25 2010 19:18 gautamvirk86 wrote:
seriously i m hving the same issue big time, n wt i am plannig to do it jus use more Infestors, hving 3 to 5 of these babies would really help cuz if u r using anything other than the hydras n by that i mean ANYTHING other than the hydras, u can easy get in range to use the mind control thingy, which i dont noe the name off.
I imagine hving lings roaches plus ultras plus 4 infestors u can easy use mind control on the 3 or 4 colosus, not only ur reducing toss's DPS but ur also increasing ur DPS at the same time, n if toss is going to focus fire ur infestors who are sitting way behind ur close range army then there power ball is gonna be scaterd n ur get the surround beter n KILL TOSS.
Again this is what i ma have to do, i dont really use infestors n i recomend infestor now, LOL one time i used infestors to nutral parasite there mothership NOW THAT WAS GREAT
Ugh, what a mess. Seriously, this forum even gives you an automatic spelling correction (in case you ever wondered what all those RED LINES below every second word in your "post" are for) - make use of it.
If you can't be bothered to post in proper English, don't post at all. And look up correct names for abilities in Liquipedia if you "dont noe the name off" something.
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I also think air is the way to go. First of all, muta harass is great as already mentioned. Secondly, air control is map control. So let's say he IS prepared for your mutas and you can't do much. In that case, you still have the possibility to mass nydus (talking about very late game) and just throw like 20cracklings in 4 different spots of his bases.
I think your argument is very true and I also feel like there is no way I can win an army clash late game against toss. However, if we both have to split armies, it is no problem to win. I'm only 1.550 dia and I also fail at achieving this split. Basically because of my bad multitasking / apm. But whenever I succeed I can really see how this works incredibly well. Whenever small armies clash, lings demolish everything a protoss has.
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On October 25 2010 19:30 Google. wrote:
I also think air is the way to go. First of all, muta harass is great as already mentioned.
not lategame.staying on mutas too long /lkategame can hugely backfire. once HT tech is thru they are very very weak in fighting situations. storm/archons really rape muta/ling if the P hits 1-3 good storms.
you might have mapcontrol for some time but when he moves out your army will evaporate. and cannons + HT with amulet warpin shuts down any muta counters/harrass you might wanna do.
had games where i was in total control for the entire game, 4 vs 2 base with maxed mutaling and i got stomped when he moved out with HT/archon. and before my ultras reinforcements were out(damn that looong buildtime) i lost 2 expos while the P secured his 3rd. lost the game shortly after.
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Well, against any kind of late-game collosus ball, ultras work well. Spend all your gas on ultras, and dump the minerals into lings. You have to keep your melee attack and carapace well upgraded so the lings do well against zealots. If you have even or better upgrades, the only thing that will be beating you for cost are the robo units. Immortals don't really do that well against ultra/ling, as the target priority will make them attack whatever's closest, which is often the lings. Ultras absolutely destroy stalker/collosus. You may want to throw down a hydra den when you attack with ultra/ling as well, as toss sometimes will switch to void ray, seeing this combination.
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I find using both ultraling AND broodlords against toss endgame is extremely devastating. I have yet to see protoss field a ground army that can beat it. This takes awhile to get granted, but if we're talking 30 min+ matches here it isn't too hard.
If they start going air then I like to cut a few ultras and get more hydras, but mutas/corruptors would probably work in their place.
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You sort of mention the solution yourself in your OP. I'd go for a very heavy roach army, with 5-10 ultralisks and a couple of brood-lords backing it up. Make sure to try and fight on creep and on open ground, maintain a good surround on his army, and don't let-up on keeping your expansions up and running. It goes without saying that +3 wpn/armor is very important at the late stage of game.
1500 diamond random player here, so I can tell you I have experience from both sides of the equation in these situations.
edit: hydras are really bad against heavy colossi armies, roaches do much better due to their larger unit size and higher hp, thus the splash is minimized against them. The broodlords are there purely to confuse the AI with their broodlings, akin to how carrier interceptors run circles around armies that aren't properly microed, and ultras are there to screw up the stalker blink if he chooses to come and focus your broodlords.
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3 words. ultralisks. theres nothing that beats like...15 ultralisks off of 4 bases. You are basically unstoppable
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On October 25 2010 19:46 BreAKmYBank wrote:
3 words. ultralisks. theres nothing that beats like...15 ultralisks off of 4 bases. You are basically unstoppable
pure ultralisks are worthless. they get funneled in bad spots,can get kited forever ,block evrything and after the double nerf they dont even do so great vs standart warpgate units anymore(not to mention immortals/archons).
they are decent in open spaces when you can properly flank and surround their army(no arc,all units clumped,no kiting...). when you have to attack thru small chokes they are terrible and they need other stuff to support.
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Pretty sure 10 or so immortals would massacre 15 ultras. If you are getting 15 ultras, he probably has enough resources to make 10 immortals.
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it says Protoss for nada????
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Lurkers and defilers > Protoss. Imagine the havok of infestors + defilers...
On a serious note when it comes to that collosi mix you stated in the OP, Mutas and ultras are the answer to your problems. Mutas are extremely strong against that group if you can somehow take out those sentries really fast, with Ultras + roaches. This mix really isn't what should trouble zerg players as much as that next composition you stated. Archons are the real zerg killer, they handle ultras, as well as destroying anything bio a.k.a all zerg. However, I believe hydra+roach is a good match up for that composition, while sprinkling some broodlords due to the lack of long range units, a few ultras to tank though really wouldn't hurt.
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I'm in mid diamond, and the thing I use to beat lategame protoss would be something with broodlords. lots and lots of brood lords.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160414.jpg)
