EPTAnyways i got my point across and trust me not everyone has time to sit there and check there grammar and stuff or in any case even give a suggestion.
[Mid-High Diamond] How do you win Late Game ZvP? - Page 3
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gautamvirk86
India55 Posts
Anyways i got my point across and trust me not everyone has time to sit there and check there grammar and stuff or in any case even give a suggestion. | ||
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adrift
192 Posts
Remember to always lead with the ultras. It might seem weird to lead with the expensive unit but you want them tanking as much as possible. Lings just melt to the big protoss ball if you lead with them. This also gets rid of any force fields. As long as the zealot/archon meat shield is tanking the ultras they can't be blocking your lings from surrounding all the ranged units. Make sure you have as many upgrades for the lings as possible because they end up doing a lot of damage. Mass lings are very good against the units protoss generally tries to focus ultras with (immortals and stalkers) The most important thing is really positioning though. Ultra/Ling/Infestor is probably the strongest composition but if you engage in any kind of choke or somewhere that limits your ling/ultra surface area its going to be a lot harder for you. Always engage this big ball in the middle of the map. By late game you should have excess minerals so invest them in spinecrawler walls. If you trade your 200 food ultra/ling army for a good amount of his army the spinecrawlers + mass ling reinforcement can hold off whatever he has leftover + warpins (provided you fought in a good open area and did enough damage). If you engage outside your base and lose your army you're screwed - especially since outside your base is more likely to mean fighting in some kind of choke. They tried doing mainly ultra/roach as well but I find this much easier to deal with. The same P units are strong against both (immortal/stalker/) and roaches take up valuable ultra surface area. In a perfect situation you will be able to fungal the zealot/archon meatshield and surround the stalkers/immortals/collosus ball with lings but its obviously not usually that easy to pull off. Also in super late game situations (IE: both on 4 bases) make sure you take advantage of Zergs ability to instantly tech switch. If they go zealot/immortal heavy to deal with ultra/ling switch to a flock of mutas. When they warp in a ton of stalkers to deal with the mutas switch back to lots of ultra/ling. Don't keep remaking the same army and throwing it at him. | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
Im seeing most are saying that Mutas are the way to go, but they will blow in lategame simply because you will mix them with lings (which suck) or because your opponent by that time will have several archons + ht so youll need to magic box your mutas and stalkers can work pretty well then. Also, the fact that you can insta lose your ENTIRE army to 2 storms. So you cant really win unless you are WAY AHEAD (in which case anything will do) or the P screws up BAD. Pretty much all that " BeMannerDuPenner " said is true. Going to try using Blords to mess with the Ai my next game. BTW, i find it way harder to fight against templar tech than Robo tech. (IE: HT>Collosi). Also gonna start adding 2 Infestor, i dont find them too useful in lategamp zvp but its not like wham im doing is working so :p | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Mid-game, use speedroach/infestor to secure your 3rd. Make sure you're matching his + attack upgrades with + carapace upgrades. I usually upgrade +1 ranged attack, to make roaches more effective in the mid-game, but then switch to upgrading melee attack, to make crackling/ultra/broodlings more powerful in the late-game. However the +2 roach damage you get from level 1 ranged attack is key when using roaches in the mid-game. On October 25 2010 18:17 skindzer wrote: Now the thing is, in both combination of units the stalkers can kite my units and most of the time the Protoss will be able to decide when to engage so it will be either on my side of the map if hes ahead or in his side where he also has cannons to help and can reinforce faster. Up until patch 1.1.2, there was nothing that zerg could do to prevent +3 attack blink stalkers from just endlessly kiting the zerg army. However, there's a very important change that was introduced in patch 1.1.2:
Seems like a small change, but the implications are huge. Now you can prevent stalkers from kiting your army all the time. Because of this, speedling/speedroach/infestor is awesome against mass blink stalkers in the mid-game. If he doesn't have sentries, speedling/speedroach/FG will stop stalkers cold. If he does make sentries, make more roaches, less speedlings. 3-4 infestors should be enough to FG his army at every engagement. Make sure to get burrow, both for roaches, and to protect your infestors from getting blink-sniped by stalkers. Although with range 9 FG, if he tries he'll probably have to blink into a wall of roaches and lose his army. Once your 3rd is up, go hive. Until you get your ultras out, keep making roach and/or muta (depending on what he makes). keep upgrading armor + melee attack, 3/3 cracklings, 3/5 ultras, and broodlords spitting 3/3 broodlings will destroy any protoss ground army. Have you ever seen 3/3 broodlings? They're like 2 free zerglings with every broodlord attack. Keep your army together so that any attempt to blink under your broodlords will be met with a wall of fully upgraded crackling/ultra. FG will keep the stalkers/colossus in place while your ground army shreds it. If he has immortals + HT, then you need to target the HT with broodlords, and surround his army with crackling/ultra. Micro your ultras to stomp any FF he tries to lay down with sentries. If he starts going immortal-heavy, you need to make more broodlords. If he starts going HT/Archon-heavy, you need to make more ultras If he goes immortals mid-game to counter your roaches, tech switch to muta. If he goes HT, stop making infestors (they'll die to HT feedback), and use burrowed roaches until you can get broodlords. If he goes for stalker/colossus, keep using speedroach/infestor until ultras come out. speedroach/infestor/ultra will kill colossus, especially if you get off some good FG to pin the colossus in place. It sounds like you're doing mostly the right things, but you NEED infestors for FG to defend against mass +1/+2 attack blink stalkers in the mid-game. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
He is trouble if you can handle his attacks and come out a bit afterwards with a lot of broodlords. He will likely not have starport tech up and will have a hard time sniping your BLs with blink when they are accompanied by the rest of your army. Just crawl forward towards his base at this point, reenforcing as needed. | ||
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jemag
Canada98 Posts
I really think late late game Zerg should be in a highly favorable position over the protoss. You should first be able to out macro the protoss and to have the possibility to replenish your army really fast. As far as unit composition goes, I think the best late game compositions are mixes of broodlords like broodlords/ultra/hydra, broodlord/ultra/ling, etc.. As long as you keep your broodlords fairly near your ground army there is no way the Protoss can blink with stalkers underneath the broodlords or they will totally get annihilated (it really is all about good positionning). The only way for Protoss to deal effectively against that is to get air but this transition is really hard for protoss to do compared to the zerg, so there shouldn't be any problem there. | ||
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Aeruthus
United States98 Posts
So yeah, boils down to if you want to keep playing relatively passive you need to expand more and always be a base or two ahead, preferably two. Watch some Idra games he plays about your style. By the way, not to be a douche but you're only 1800+ with 1k games.... that isn't really impressive, so don't act as if people that aren't in Diamond or at low in Diamond have no idea what they're saying. Yes most times people not in Diamond have less of an idea, but generally even people in Diamond have no idea wtf they're talking about. Just wanted to say, stop the elitist crap especially since you're not elite. | ||
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
Mutas are rediculous to fight against and super strong. Zergs need to build more of them. I'm only at about 1600 Diamond but I think my advice is good for people at all levels. | ||
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Ekko
United States72 Posts
What I do is I go roach/hydra, I get the roaches in front (hotkey two, hydra hotkey 3) then when we engage I watch if they are try to focus the hydras with the collosi which they should be doing I back the hydras up a step or two, causing the collosi to move forward then focus fire with roaches and move the hydras back into targetting immortals. They generally back up the collosi back up once they are focus fired so i go back to letting the roaches hit what they want. We then get into this goofy back and forth game at which point we exchange armies or I come out on top usually. Either way is a win for me. A lot of times I see protoss switch to a massive colossi based army at that point and i immediatly drop as many mutas as possible (20-30 if its late game and i've kept up with larva). I then proceed to steamroll thier base first then thier army which is usually busy trying to fry one of my expos very slowly. Vs. HT's is a lot harder and requires i only engage on creep so I can keep the hydras moving around and generally I can only win by letting them run out of minerals. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
but with alot 3-3 cracklings its rly hard (ofc z have to come from more then 1 side) | ||
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Agh
United States1044 Posts
Just keep P inside of his base with your Mutas while you take your 3rd/gold/4th mining base. If he makes phoenix simply get some corrupters to deal with them, With proper micro corrupters and mutas beat phoenix fine, also a critical mass over underproduced phoenix (assuming thats all hes relying on) handles them as well since you will be able to get volleys off while retreating and moving back in. Also another option if he is going extremely heavy phoenix is just to get an infestor for fungal. If you catch a group of phoenix its pretty crippling if not a gg at that moment. But assuming you want to stick with more standard/generic play then late game after something like Roach/Hydra/corrupter (Ignoreing the fact that you should probably be head in bases/economy), Just go for ultras or brood lords depending on map and your opponents tech. If he has blink/archons/storm then I would definitely not go for broodlords since that is hardest land counter to them. Also tactics wise, Nydus and borrowed roaches are completely obnoxious to deal with late game. You can usually pick off some tech structures/production buildings and force the toss to be defensive and make extra observers. This of course is assuming the game is at a lull (where the P is trying to put together his ball. I'll go out on a limb and assume you usually do not play very aggressively. There are only about 3-4 people I can name that can actually play ZvP passively and do well, but it requires you to be completely pristine on your timings/scouting. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
That said, Brood Lords sound like the end all be all, as per usual. As long as you position them well and back em up with say, lings/hydras, blink stalkers won't be an issue and you can deny expos and basically just whittle him down to nothing. | ||
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BobStaMan
United States29 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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BobStaMan
United States29 Posts
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
 I lose to Z for a number of different reasons. Things that give me trouble mid-late game: 1) Unexpected transition to muta which is revealed by 8+mutas suddenly showing up at my main expo's probe line. The economic damage can be hard to come back from, but it requires good scouting denial to pull off. 2) Mass hydra with corruptor support (if I went Collosus). During the transition from mid to late game I am moving from Collosus to HT to prevent this, but there is a window of opportunity before I can field storm-ready HTs where this push can be deadly. 3) Very late game a group of Muta, Corruptor and Brood Lord WTFPWNING expo mineral lines (very map dependent). 4) Ultras if I have stayed too heavy on gateway units. Don't know if that's helpful but that's the stuff I have trouble with. Granted I am far below your level but a couple of those things may still be useful at higher diamond. I won't know til I get there myself  | ||
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Aeruthus
United States98 Posts
On October 26 2010 06:02 Bobsta wrote: Terran can repair and toss have shields, their units are much more efficient than the zergs. Its all about getting your macro where you can just outproduce them, while having the army to support yourself. If protoss has only 1-2 colossus, you can take that out with a simple roach hydra army with decent micro. But if he has 4-5 colossus...your about to get stomped. So by that time you need to make sure you have a counter for it. Zerg is also the only race that doesn't have to spend resources to repair their units back to full or only have partly regen like Protoss shields. All zerg buildings and units heal themselves and do so even faster on creep, as well as Queens being able to transfuse (125hp for 50 energy) which is a unit that is great to have for anti-air and to heal important units like Ultras, Mutas, Broodlords etc. My point is all races have their unique mechanic to "repair" their army/buildings, but only zerg can do it with a spell off of a tier 1 unit or by letting them slowly regen (or quickly if they're roaches and you have burrow). Toss is more efficient once they reach a certain point and if you fight in a choke as well as not utilizing Zerg's strength (speed). But just looking at cost for cost 1 zealot loses to 4 lings which is 100 minerals and there will be 1 ling left over, but if the zerg micros well and pulls lings back you might lose none. So, it's really hard to say flat out "This races units are more efficient". | ||
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Dagon
Romania264 Posts
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mskaa
Denmark155 Posts
Go ultra and make him get heavy on immortals. Switch to muta - ling. Pretty much keep changing every time he gets the appropriate counters for your mix, mix it up :-O Also Broodlords are alot better than you make them out to be. Roach + a few hydras and broodlords is a pain to deal with. | ||
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