EPT[G]TvZ Marine/Raven - Page 12
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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kme
Serbia176 Posts
On October 29 2010 04:32 Senorcuidado wrote: Hey kme I noticed that you have been getting a couple tanks in the more recent replays, has that become standard for you or were you just spending money? (man does that money climb) you also appear to keep them on defense mostly, probably because they're terrible for hit and runs. Do you think they're worth it or do they eat into the raven count too much, and do you sometimes get more than a couple? The big drawback of marine tank is immobility, and the big advantage of marine raven is mobility, so it's an interesting balancing act. I'm also wondering if it might be a good idea to make a couple banshees(without cloak) to accompany the marines before starting ravens. If Zerg doesn't have a spire yet they can wreak some havoc on roaches and banelings, which can give your marines a real leg up. If he already has the spire, however, it's probably better to go for the ravens right away so they can start stockpiling energy. Maybe they're always a better choice but it seems you can steal an easy win if your marine pressure delayed his lair enough. They're never useless either with good dps, being able to keep up with the marines, and sniping infestors. Im just not sure if it's worth delaying that critical mass of ravens. And for the haters, watch more of those replays. There's even more of kme beating infestors and mass banelings. It was intentional, although it was also a test. I found out that there is a timing window where zerg can do a counter attack after deflecting your first push, and if he commits enough he may do severe damage. At this time you still haven't established a big marine macro machine and the raven count/energy is still very low. Those early tanks come fast enough and are meant to snipe the majority of banelings if he tries some sort of baneling + roach/ling bust. If he decides not to attack and you could still use them offensively. After that you shouldn't need more than 2 tanks so you can return to ravens. The other option that I have been trying is to delay the OC on natural, and if you scout or suspect the bust incoming you upgrade it to PF instead. Having a PF at nat gives you great versatility since all his possible counterattacks will be nullified even before they happen. This allows you to be completely aggressive without fear. This bust will require of zerg to sacrifice some economy so he shouldn't be ahead there, but if he doesn't actually attack it may give him map control for a brief time and this I found to be the greatest problem with the build. The reason is that it suddenly gives him few options. Those are muta switch, mass drones, overlord drop or nydus, massing even more units to keep map control or attack possibility and there is also tech. This will be the deciding point as if you are not prepared/don't react properly it may cost you the game. I still haven't figured what is the best possible thing to do to prevent/stop this situation but there are some options. One is as you suggested, make a few banshees first since he will have only roach/ling/bling, this will give you back map control and you must immediately take your third. Once you are one 3 base you should be safe no matter what he does. The second option would be drops, which would have an effect similar to banshees. The third option would be taking a third base even earlier, that is before he can potentially gain map control or at about same time. If your CC finishes upgrading to PF you will be safe. I am not yet sure what can he do to punish this but it should be tested. Fourth option would be to make some tanks and push/force him and proceed to establish a defensive position somewhere on the map. For this you would use a ton of bunkers turrets and probably turrets int your main. If it appeared that he was massing drones try to contain. If you do it somewhere on the route of his really points it may screw him a lot, since some of his units would be trapped on the other side of contain. And there is the fifth option. It would be scouting him somehow with 100% efficiency. If you can be absolutely sure what is he doing you may then react or prepare perfectly. Maybe getting some flying units even earlier, some floating barracks or a very carefully controlled hellion I'm not sure. Some notes on the late game. If the game drags on and he catches you with upgrades or you see that it becomes stale don't be afraid to add some more tech or tactics. The best transition would be mass air since it is literally unstoppable if you have enough ravens and you can shut down expos very easily. Tanks could be used to hold some key positions maybe along with barracks/PF walls. Drops are basically part of the strategy already so use them. Adding ghosts if he gets a significant amount of infestors would be worthwhile, nukes are always fun and snipes also soft counter ultras/BL. Advice for everyone: Don't look at my games like I am some sort of god of this strategy  . I screw up a lot and I could also be wrong about some things. If you get some idea that seems like it could work, try it, maybe you will improve the strategy :D. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On October 28 2010 15:56 nalgene wrote: Btw, could you add to drop marauders on top of banelings into your play? Horrible idea. The way you fight banelings is by running a few marines into his army, his banelings will definitely not be amoving. | ||
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
On October 29 2010 05:33 metaldragon wrote: I really want to see this from some higher level players In the GSL MVP did a marine-heavy build against Zenio in game 1, where he used micro to avoid the banelings. He beat zerg on jungle Basin pretty decisively. His build was marine medivac more than raven. Fake Boxer used the double medivac drop to take out Fruit Dealer. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
HSM takes too much energy to get up, and is too slow to catch banelings, let alone anything.. sighs, in theory it should work, but ravens aren't good until you get like 20 of them all with energy..and yeah...it isn't happening lol. the double medivac drops and suiciding units over and over again apparently is the best thing to do. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
The entire point of this build is "suiciding" units. You're constantly pressuring so he has no time to constantly drone up, and you're trading minerals for gas. This isn't a ZOMG HUGE ARMY CLASH TIME build, where obviously muta/ling/bling will win. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
When you have like 10 reactored raxes you can rebuild a marine force very quickly. The raven part is, imo, the "variable" part of the build, it can be : - ravens, obviously - mass medivacs : ie Fake Boxer game vs Fruitdealer on jungle bassin, he made mass reactored raxes with a single reactored starport, he had like 10 medivacs, that make the marines unkillable. This is best used against ling/roaches/mutas, obviously not as good against banes, but it still can be if you have a good marine micro. - tanks (with or without ravens), very good against mutalings. To sum it up, I think this build established that the marine, like in broodwar, is the main unit for a terran vs a zerg. His fast build speed and cheap cost makes the terran able to keep up with the zerg's production. For too long terran focused on marauders, because they seems so powerful, and I think because of this mass marines strategies were never really explored until 1.1.2 (because we, terrans, didn't really had to find strategies before that patch, everything we did worked against zerg :D). Now we have to find real solid strategies, and each time I see a terran make marauders in TvZ I'm sad ^^. On the general TvZ topic, see the ret vs qxc series that just played in TOP200 KOTH. Specialy the scrap station game where mass 3-3 marines win the game. 3-3 marines are REALLY scary if the zerg doesn't keep up with upgrades. And as usualy he goes mutas + some sort of ground unit, he can't keep up. The speed a 3-3 marine ball clears a 0-1 giant ling ball is disgusting. You can see the nada vs leenock game from today GSL on xelnaga, a beautiful marine/tank push with a very nice marine control/spread against blings (and poorly microed infestors I have to admit). | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On October 29 2010 06:02 Pokebunny wrote: Horrible idea. The way you fight banelings is by running a few marines into his army, his banelings will definitely not be amoving. Pokebunny is a 2K Diamond Player and I have his reps linked. I personally like the Raven 'variable' part because they allow you to maximize your gas expenditures while requiring very few minerals. They are also extremely powerful and snow ball like nothing else in the terran arsenal. They are fairly mobile and not prone to catastrophic losses when compared to sieged tanks. Not that I'm saying tanks are bad. They definitely aren't with all the pros playing Marine/Tank. I think Ravens become infinitely better as the maps get larger since tanks can't control space like they used to. Also, Ravens are 2 Food  Not having much success with this at all still. You mass marines, they just lol @ u and do what they normally do...mass muta/ling/baneling. HSM takes too much energy to get up, and is too slow to catch banelings, let alone anything.. sighs, in theory it should work, but ravens aren't good until you get like 20 of them all with energy..and yeah...it isn't happening lol. the double medivac drops and suiciding units over and over again apparently is the best thing to do. Not sure what you are doing. Maybe post a rep? | ||
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Boundless
Canada588 Posts
Plus, if you get into the late game with this build, you often get ridiculous amounts of min/gas to spend. Not like you are starved with this. =D | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
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Yotta
United States270 Posts
On October 29 2010 08:49 nalgene wrote: My guess is he values marine upgrades more and plans to get it lategame before some mega turret push. Maybe he simply overlooked it; I know I didn't even think about the upgrade until i saw KME research it in his replays. It might actually be a good idea to get it later than KME does. You make a TON of marines with this build, so marine upgrades are pretty huge.Is there a reason he doesn't get the building armor for autoturrets? It'd drop the ling damage from 4 to 2 ( 5-1 to 5-3 ) and muta to 9-3 in Pokebunny's game | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On October 29 2010 08:49 nalgene wrote: Is there a reason he doesn't get the building armor for autoturrets? It'd drop the ling damage from 4 to 2 ( 5-1 to 5-3 ) and muta to 9-3 in Pokebunny's game Everyone plays different. I personally go for structure army very early on. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
On October 29 2010 08:56 Antisocialmunky wrote: Everyone plays different. I personally go for structure army very early on. Yeah I think that structure armor and hi-sec auto tracking are pretty important. Both also help your missile turrets and planetary fortresses. I think kme always gets +1 attack and then building armor right after but you can make the case for prioritizing marine upgrades more since you won't be throwing many turrets at first. I like the idea of double eng bays so you can do both. | ||
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bri9and
United States246 Posts
Zerg POWER! | ||
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bri9and
United States246 Posts
Fake Boxer used the double medivac drop to take out Fruit Dealer. Fake boxer? | ||
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Yotta
United States270 Posts
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Lancette
China120 Posts
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apmspam
Azerbaijan24 Posts
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
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