On October 31 2010 01:04 ninjamyst wrote: Shock, in the first game how did you know he was going mutas? You had turrets all around before he even started a spire. And you never scanned the spire either? Was it just from the fact that you only saw speedlings so you assume he will go muta/ling?
I always build turrets against zerg, even without checking whether there's in fact a spire. The number of zerg players I encounter that don't at least try to go mutas is so small that it's usually well invested minerals.
1300 diamond here so I know my opinion doesnt really matter but I really like this build. They key to winning vs any zerg ground forces that arent banelings is to repeatedly trade armies and constantly denying expo's from the zerg.
I have one problem against muta/bling's. Can anyone give me tips on how to micro better? I can't seem to split my marines fast enough or run them one by one into banelings.
That is difficult, you're going to have to use atleast 3 groups and just split. The easiest way to to control group them. You can also stagger them so you have a small clump infront with a gap, and another gap, and another small group behind that and another grap with small group behind that.
On October 31 2010 11:05 te3l wrote: 1300 diamond here so I know my opinion doesnt really matter but I really like this build. They key to winning vs any zerg ground forces that arent banelings is to repeatedly trade armies and constantly denying expo's from the zerg.
I have one problem against muta/bling's. Can anyone give me tips on how to micro better? I can't seem to split my marines fast enough or run them one by one into banelings.
For marine control, the way I find easiest is to not have a control group at all. have them all selected (there you can use a control group obviously), then move them, select 3/4th of them, move them somewhere else, once again select (with mouse by draging a selection around) 3/4th or half of them, move, and again and again until you have a smal group not worth microing. If you're really fast you can make control groups on the fly, but that's too hard for me so I just mouse select everything, once used to it it's easy. Don't forget that the more effective you are in marine micro, the better this build with work because you increase the balance of the marine/gaz+larva trade more and more in your favor along with your increase in micro effectiveness.
Make some practice marine control session against an easy CPU or unit tester, and you will be used to it very fast and become more and more proficient and effective with it. Try to have like 60 marines and split them in smallest possible groups the fastest you can.
On October 28 2010 00:18 MrCon wrote: You have to register (for free) to watch the first game, but you have to buy a premium account to see the second/third game. But I guess you can find them too for free on sites like http://sc2.plu.cn/
I used google translate to find replays on that site. Had a chuckle at this comment on the front page:
In fact, the Air Force is very simple, I made the n-control tower, control of the four full-time imperial dragon and parasitic insects, and that they only made the Japanese boats and medical (medical boat to treat the Zerg air units), queen to come out Dragon up to seduce, and then Japan and then shot up with Japan second, very simple. is a lot of trouble early, need to manually hit the roadblock. because you like the back was first hit destroyed the Zerg will drain the dog, very annoying.
I think I worked out "japanese boats" are vikings and "parasitic insects" are zerglings. But "drain the dog" is beyond me.
Question about the opening - I like the idea of walling off with CC and barracks. I don't like having to build the reactor as it kind of messes up my wall, even if I add depth with depots it's kind of weird.
Since KME's opening gets 50 gas for a reactor and then stops, can I just skip the refinery and build a second barracks instead? Then, after my CC I'd build the refinery and start mining gas.
I'm really paranoid about my walls, and I realize if zerg scouts it he'll realize something fishy is going on - but I'm willing to accept that, especially since he'll likely see my CC anyways.
I have a question about dealing with baneling busts, particularly off a fake FE (as in, they get a fast second hatch at natural then go straight to drone cut to bling bust). What kind of walloffs/structures are you getting? Do you recommend walling off with your CC? add a single bunker? double rax / 1 depot wall-off? I can hold it off easily, but I'm always a little uncomfortable on when to expand if I see them getting a lot of early lings. Obviously it means they aren't droning as hard as they could, but I find it hard to move out of my base at the beginning of the game. Once I get the FE down and start laying down bunkers, I obviously transition just fine into mass marines, but if they do show a lot of lings early (implying early bling bust), when do you finally move out to grab your expansion? Looking for high diamond+ advice only, thanks.
On October 31 2010 15:38 PROJECTILE wrote: I have a question about dealing with baneling busts, particularly off a fake FE (as in, they get a fast second hatch at natural then go straight to drone cut to bling bust). What kind of walloffs/structures are you getting? Do you recommend walling off with your CC? add a single bunker? double rax / 1 depot wall-off? I can hold it off easily, but I'm always a little uncomfortable on when to expand if I see them getting a lot of early lings. Obviously it means they aren't droning as hard as they could, but I find it hard to move out of my base at the beginning of the game. Once I get the FE down and start laying down bunkers, I obviously transition just fine into mass marines, but if they do show a lot of lings early (implying early bling bust), when do you finally move out to grab your expansion? Looking for high diamond+ advice only, thanks.
In terms of walling off, you really wall with what you have. This build is quite dynamic and a lot of people reach the point of marine + raven a lot of different ways (early 2nd rax, 1 - 1 -1, etc.) Its also hard for me to know exactly when this bust is coming, but in general you will probably have a barracks and a factory at this point with a third production building at least done or in progress. You are right to suspect a bust if you see a very high number of lings. If you suspect a bust you immediately lift all your production to your wall. It generally takes 3 non supply buildings too wall off a ramp or so. If you dont have them, then quickly drop a bunker behind the vulnerable supply depot (I am assuming you wall supply, rax, supply)
In regards to your second question, you really just grab the expansion when you feel safe. You can normally do this by building 2 bunkers at your expo before landing the CC you built in base. If they are constantly camping the expo, or if for some reason you dont feel secure normally baneling busts set them back a bit on tech so I would get a banshee first out of your starport to clear a way for your expo and also to harass their mineral line.
On October 31 2010 11:05 te3l wrote: I have one problem against muta/bling's. Can anyone give me tips on how to micro better? I can't seem to split my marines fast enough or run them one by one into banelings.
I am only Gold, so please excuse me for giving advice to you, but I think that practicing marine spread micro in the Editor is a small price to pay for this awesome build. I am absolutely going to practice the hell out of it. What's even better, it even works amazingly well in team games! Though Feedback/Storm of HTs can shut it down pretty damn good. But I'm not complaining about it. ^^
I was at 1650~ earlier tonight and decided to go on a marathon after 2~ weeks of mia... out of the 26 games I played today about 16-18 of them were zergs. I won all but 2 of the TvZs and am now in the 1930's~. This is a really really good TvZ build. I recommend it a lot.
BTW: First game I lost was against a ling/roach, because I forgot to research stim 2nd game was against a 2k~ zerg where he went 2base sling all in on my expo 3rd game was vs a guy I beat in a game before.. he adapted and went mass baneling/ling all-in
This build really punishes you if you aren't on the ball the whole time!
a little question: how crucial is good marine micro for this build? can it be done by some high platinum/low diamond guy with quite good macro but rather bad micro?
im just asking because the replays dont really show how strong the impact of micro is on the effectiveness of this strategy.
On October 31 2010 15:15 pat965 wrote: Question about the opening - I like the idea of walling off with CC and barracks. I don't like having to build the reactor as it kind of messes up my wall, even if I add depth with depots it's kind of weird.
Since KME's opening gets 50 gas for a reactor and then stops, can I just skip the refinery and build a second barracks instead? Then, after my CC I'd build the refinery and start mining gas.
I'm really paranoid about my walls, and I realize if zerg scouts it he'll realize something fishy is going on - but I'm willing to accept that, especially since he'll likely see my CC anyways.
You can try the second opening if you like. Its my somewhat more defensive with 2 rax CC then double gas. I don't think it is as good as KME's since you can't pressure zerg's natural expo much.
On October 31 2010 15:38 PROJECTILE wrote: I have a question about dealing with baneling busts, particularly off a fake FE (as in, they get a fast second hatch at natural then go straight to drone cut to bling bust). What kind of walloffs/structures are you getting? Do you recommend walling off with your CC? add a single bunker? double rax / 1 depot wall-off? I can hold it off easily, but I'm always a little uncomfortable on when to expand if I see them getting a lot of early lings. Obviously it means they aren't droning as hard as they could, but I find it hard to move out of my base at the beginning of the game. Once I get the FE down and start laying down bunkers, I obviously transition just fine into mass marines, but if they do show a lot of lings early (implying early bling bust), when do you finally move out to grab your expansion? Looking for high diamond+ advice only, thanks.
I actually haven't run into this but I would suspect that the major part of the response really depends on how well you scout. You just need to see it in time and act accordingly with whatever you feel like like floating extra barracks to the wall. As for moving out. You could get a tank with siege to expand and just mule your main minerals. T isn't that badly behind if they can't float their CC out.
On October 31 2010 21:03 Black Gun wrote: a little question: how crucial is good marine micro for this build? can it be done by some high platinum/low diamond guy with quite good macro but rather bad micro?
im just asking because the replays dont really show how strong the impact of micro is on the effectiveness of this strategy.
No one really has the micro tool set for this build yet except for basic baneling micro. The big part of this build is constant macro so get that down first if you are learning this build. You may also want to work on your early game scouting. You can do Day[9]'s practice routine of moving an SCV around the middle of LT. As for the marine control, you can literally A-move your giant marine balls and only micro your ravens at lower levels.
BTW - There are many things that this guide still needs. It needs a decision tree for how to respond to zerg. It needs a guide for marine/baneling micro. I also needs a guide for raven use/turret placement. If anyone has reps or advice that can help, feel free to post. I'm also looking for reps preferably in the 1500+ Diamond range.
I do have a tip regarding the raven micro. This may be old news for many players, but it did help me once I noticed it.
You're probably moving your ravens around with the rest of the army or as a separate group, and once you want to start setting up turrets (or PDD/HSM), you'll probably do so by keeping Shift pressed to quickly drop multiple turrets from multiple ravens. However, this will queue the turrets (or the PDD, or the HSM) up behind the raven's current move command - first, they'll move to where ever they were going in the first place, then they'll drop turrets.
This has lost me countless battles before I actually noticed it; before I just wondered why my ravens weren't doing what I told them. So if you're about to do something with ravens, either issue a stop command or move-click them to where they are at that moment so that they stop and can directly start deploying stuff.
On October 31 2010 23:01 nalgene wrote: Durable materials( extends auto-turret duration to 240 seconds from 180 ) research when players get 3rd base seems good?
and the +1 range upgrade for auto-turrets?
of course ! The +2 building armor and the +1 turret range are making a huge difference against mutas, and +2 armors helps your (auto)turrets a lot against lings.
Yea I think the main thing with this style is microing your marines against the banelings, cause most of the time when they see you going mass marine they'll just go mass baneling infestor which is the toughest combination to deal with and you cant just a-move your marines you have to realy have a good split
The thing with mass baneling/infestor is that he has no response for ravens and I always tend to get a massive raven ball. Z can fungal them but doesn't have anything good way of killing them. Infested Terrans are slow to pop and weak. Ravens can also cast while fungal so they can throw down auto turrets to keep infestors away. Additionally Z cannot pressure you because all he has are speedlings, blings, and infestors. If you are macroing effectively and keeping your ravens alive, then your raven numbers will get out of control and you will just have another marine ball up by the time your previous one is dead.
I think KME played a similar strategy on the Lost Temple towards the end of his first rep pack.
EPT
