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sYstim
Canada161 Posts
I have my own version of raven strat and it seems leaner than this one. You can see it posted here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164051 here are 2 quick replays i uploaded, I will get more once I get back to playing soon. im 1800 diamond, but I havent played in a while so my hidden rating seems to be pretty high (i play a lot of 2k+). [url blocked] vs a 2250 zerg [url blocked] vs a 1700 zerg | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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sYstim
Canada161 Posts
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind. basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1). If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time). --- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE! I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential. PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Pretty nice face stop though.  Your first rep doesn't work BTW. | ||
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kombine
Australia6 Posts
at first i was a bit confused about the apparent suiciding of the marines but now i understand about forcing the gas heavy units from zerg! surprised that a war of attrition vs zerg actually works i also love the replay where the zerg wrote: "wtf happened to all my mutas" like 2 minutes after they got wasted by a HSM...lol | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On October 28 2010 07:11 Pokebunny wrote: 6 customs and 1 ladder game vs various players 1 game vs Just - ladder game, I was 2050 3 games vs Gerbil - ~2k diamond zerg 3 games vs logix - 1670 diamond zerg w/ 100 bonus pool (so probably around 1750-1800 zerg) http://www.mediafire.com/?cho7regecq8wp5y If anyone is liking high level play, watch these. These are amazing. I think you saw that this build was weird because I gave a wrong rundown of KME's variant. Thanks Pokebunny Edit: On October 28 2010 09:25 dandelion wrote: Thanks for the build. One of my biggest problems with zerg is that I get scared of moving out thus letting zerg get the upper hand. This has helped alot. I'm including a few replays for those interested. Nothing special, both in platinum, but it shows the general idea. TvZ on Blistering Sands TvZ on Shakuraz Plaueau Not looking for feedback, I do notice lots of mistakes. Thanks anyway Let me look at them and see if I like them. I'll put them in the OP if I do. | ||
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cheesable
Singapore6 Posts
Firstly, it is how you force lavra use. Do not even need to be an even trade, you are just preventing excessive droning, while you constantly make workers off of 2 base with dual mules. 2ndly, is how well thought out the BO is - without the ravens. 1 rax-wall-reactor-stop mining gas-cc-back to gas-+1 & Combat Shield- 20 marine timing push. Key to this however seems like being able to keep your ravens alive. From a Zerg perspective. I'd ideally like to baneling plow my way through marines and swing in with mutas to clear some ravens. But will need some practice to get both sides down. Finally, off 2 bases, there is a timing where zerg just cannot match your production anymore. It's around the 20min mark when 1 base starts mining out. Terran seems to cope alot better when mined out then zerg. Particularly due to mules. If you secure the Gold, you are golden. Cannot wait to get back home to try this | ||
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backtoback
Canada1276 Posts
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n3mo
United States298 Posts
On October 28 2010 15:06 cheesable wrote: I started playing Zerg in SEA and play random in NA. Strange to say that it gets harder and harder for terran to win. Watching these replays just makes me go wow. Firstly, it is how you force lavra use. Do not even need to be an even trade, you are just preventing excessive droning, while you constantly make workers off of 2 base with dual mules. 2ndly, is how well thought out the BO is - without the ravens. 1 rax-wall-reactor-stop mining gas-cc-back to gas-+1 & Combat Shield- 20 marine timing push. Key to this however seems like being able to keep your ravens alive. From a Zerg perspective. I'd ideally like to baneling plow my way through marines and swing in with mutas to clear some ravens. But will need some practice to get both sides down. Finally, off 2 bases, there is a timing where zerg just cannot match your production anymore. It's around the 20min mark when 1 base starts mining out. Terran seems to cope alot better when mined out then zerg. Particularly due to mules. If you secure the Gold, you are golden. Cannot wait to get back home to try this yeah, the point is definitely to keep ravens alive. its like an oddly switched version of SK terran, where the suicide units now target the ground instead of the air (scourge vs bling), and dark swarm is in the terran hands now (PDD). | ||
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
On October 28 2010 09:42 2FresH wrote: this is a copy paste: + Show Spoiler + i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind. basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1). If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time). --- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE! I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential. PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off Just upload your replays dude otherwise nobody will remember your advice/builds | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
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ddrt
United States32 Posts
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
If for whatever the reason you're unable to put sufficient pressure on the zerg to burn him out within the first 20 minutes doing this build, SM works on larva. So if you end up in a 200/200 situation and there's a large enough gap in his defenses you can always suicide 2-3 ravens to take out a large chunk of his larva stockpile which will lessen the negative impact of army trading as T. | ||
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
Usually when your dropping, mutas are the first to get there, so a PDD with a semi-threatening HSM helps a lot. Dump the rest of the energy into auto-turrets with structure armor around tech buildings and the mineral line. Since you can drop 6-10+ autoturrets depending on your PDD/HSM usage, even a 2 medivac drop with marines in the main can become a lot more dangerous for the zerg. Autoturrets do count as buildings, so banelings get more damage against them, however, their still not hitting marines and autoturrets are the size of a supply depot so even side by side you still need a decent amount of banelings to get through a auto-turret wall. Also you can abuse the zerg main building layout and place autoturrets in between hatcheries and tech buildings creating tight walls so zerglings have a harder time getting to your marine drop. You can also retreat your drop back into the medivacs and just leave the auto-turrets for the zerg to deal with. So depending on your micro and how well the zerg can react the only thing you'd lose is raven energy and makes hit-and-run style drops more efficient. Also if a zerg gets greedy while your macroing on 2 base and over expands, ravens are great for multi-pronged harass. You can just drop 3-4 autoturrets next to a naked expansion and drop somewhere else at the same time. The zerg can overestimate or underestimate how much he needs to take out 3-4 autoturrets making it easier to move out, harass, secure a 3rd, and/or drop on more expansions. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
I'm also wondering if it might be a good idea to make a couple banshees(without cloak) to accompany the marines before starting ravens. If Zerg doesn't have a spire yet they can wreak some havoc on roaches and banelings, which can give your marines a real leg up. If he already has the spire, however, it's probably better to go for the ravens right away so they can start stockpiling energy. Maybe they're always a better choice but it seems you can steal an easy win if your marine pressure delayed his lair enough. They're never useless either with good dps, being able to keep up with the marines, and sniping infestors. Im just not sure if it's worth delaying that critical mass of ravens. And for the haters, watch more of those replays. There's even more of kme beating infestors and mass banelings. | ||
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
What tends to defeat this is a good player who uses infestors, which own marines even harder than banelings. I've considered even adding in a ghost or two to EMP the infestors, but have not yet employed that in a game. A new twist I have been using is a double medivac drop of marines behind the mineral line prior to getting ravens. This can hit around the 6:30 to 7:00 mark and often catches a zerg player with his pants down. IMO, it's better than a hellion drop because the hellions are vulnerable to the mutas that pop out at this point, whereas the marines will kill them; and the medivacs heal the marines, but not hellions. If they don't have banelings, and you position your marines properly, you can hold off an endless supply or drones and zerglings which might react. If they hit with roaches, you can just pick up (hellions would have been worthless anyway). Many diamond zergs are still droning up waiting for the terran to reveal their tech at this point. | ||
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Yotta
United States270 Posts
On October 29 2010 04:32 Senorcuidado wrote: Hey kme I noticed that you have been getting a couple tanks in the more recent replays, has that become standard for you or were you just spending money? (man does that money climb) you also appear to keep them on defense mostly, probably because they're terrible for hit and runs. Do you think they're worth it or do they eat into the raven count too much, and do you sometimes get more than a couple? The big drawback of marine tank is immobility, and the big advantage of marine raven is mobility, so it's an interesting balancing act. I'm not KME (obviously xD) but I like getting some tanks with this strategy. The biggest problem I have with this build is infestors, so I like to skip a raven for a medivac some cycles, which leaves me with excess gas (and opens up drop possibilities ). Tanks just seem like the perfect thing to get; you have an otherwise unused factory and tanks complement a marine army very well once you get a decent amount.I like to keep harassing expos with marines, medivacs and ravens, leaving my tanks at home to defend while slowly building more and preserving the ravens and medivacs. Once I have around 5 tanks (I don't build them constantly, just when I have excess gas from making medivacs that isn't needed for an upgrade) I push with them, my Raven/medivac fleet, and a big ball o' 2+/2+ marines (depending if I've been able to take a third yet and build a second Ebay). Works well and, IMO, makes for fun, exciting games. Really hope to see something like this become the norm in tournaments. | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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