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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 20 2010 10:04 Xapti wrote: 10 overpool or 11 overpool is faster as far as I know so don't say this 12 pool build is the fastest. While this is true, they both make sacrifices for the extra speed, and only gain a handful of seconds. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 20 2010 09:51 KandLeMaN wrote: When are you getting the pool in a 14 versus 12? When doing 12, it flows naturally into the queen, 2 lings, RW while preventing a scout from seeing the Warren. I feel if you go 14, you are delaying your Queen, not getting any zlings and leaving yourself very vulnerable to a scout seeing your RW, killing it's effectiveness. Um...you get the pool at...14?  It does delay the pool and therefore the queen slightly, but not by nearly as much as you think, and you can still get 2 lings as soon as the pool finishes if you want, you just have to not squeeze in one of the extra drones, stopping at 16 instead of 17. Then you can extractor trick for the queen + a set of lings. The timings are *very* close. It really is just a matter of a couple seconds worth of delay, for a much more economical start. | ||
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shutdown_exploded
United States133 Posts
what am I missing? EDIT: nvm, see the 15 overlord. delete? | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On October 20 2010 10:15 shutdown_exploded wrote: you say 18 overlord, bringing you up to 18/26 supply? meaning you can build 4 roaches!? what am I missing? you missed 15 overlord. I wouldn't say it's necessary though - two at 18 seem to be fine | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 20 2010 10:17 Xapti wrote: you missed 15 overlord. I wouldn't say it's necessary though - two at 18 seem to be fine Yeah, unless you're trying to squeeze out extra drones, you don't end up building anything after 18 anyway, and I don't think you *can* squeeze out extra drones with the 12 pool. That larva would be better off going toward a drone. | ||
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Silent_Tao
Israel87 Posts
works well against terran too vs t i usually follow up with fast tech to get mutas out, as for p i usually follow up with spines and more low tech and just massing drones. since the buff looks like mass roaches is really good against everything but collosi/mass stalkers. ~i'm 1350 diamond | ||
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Penetrates
Hong Kong82 Posts
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KandLeMaN
United States64 Posts
On October 20 2010 12:46 Penetrates wrote: How does it fair on 4P map cross position? You have to scout it out. On 2P maps I don't scout, on 4P I scout after making my OL at 10/10. It is more susceptible to being held off on 4P maps though due to the distance, but they would have to hard-counter marauder or stalker by chance without getting a scout on you for that to happen. 24 hours ago I was Silver league and now I am Rank 11 in my Platinum league (jumped there from Gold) and just beat a 1200 Diamond player with it. It's not so much that it's an all-in or cheese build, but for the first time in SC2, I am able to be the aggressor in the early game and set the tone of the match. Being able to expand while you move out or mass speedlings to win the game outright is a very flexible position to be in. Now I am wondering what tech-paths to follow afterwards. Should I go Roach/Hydra/Infestor or Muta/Slings? Is one more preferable vs. T or P? | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
If they go normal robo, then mutaling is the way to go, adding melee upgrades and eventually getting ultra is what I (try to remember to) do. | ||
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JmpEax
Australia6 Posts
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EnTaroAdun411
Philippines106 Posts
Before reading this, I was using the 5RR build and met a 5-5 (win-loss) record before I called it a night and rested after an adrenaline rush of gaming (actually, I had to 7pool the poor low gold player I played against just to get my 5th win in 10 tries). Today, on my first try of this build, I was matched up against a rank 8 gold protoss and beat him. With subpar micro, I was able to push up his ramp and pushed his defense back (he had 2 stalkers and a zealot when my roaches got there, and warping in a robo), and he warped in with a couple more stalkers and zealots) while reinforcing my roaches with slowlings (the upgrade wasn't finished yet). My ling reinforcements helped with the zealots and stalkers, while a few raped the mining probes. IMHO, this build feels better than the 5RR because I didn't have to worry about my economy being too behind. I feel that should the push even fail, I'll have a lair on the way and a second mining hatchery so teching up wouldn't be too difficult. A big thank you to the OP for coming up with this and sharing with the community. | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
On October 20 2010 21:05 JmpEax wrote: You mentioned that you should lay down a tumor with your 3rd energy refill. However, your replay shows you injecting on the 3rd refill. Idealy, you should get a creep tumor, as getting the hatchery and lair will leave you too broke to also spend money on extra larvae. I think I either made a mistake, or wanted more lings or something, it doesn't really matter. If you can get away with the creep tumor instead of a few more units, go for it, it will go a long way towards helping defend the natural and spreading creep mid game. On October 20 2010 10:13 Skrag wrote: While this is true, they both make sacrifices for the extra speed, and only gain a handful of seconds. I didn't say it is the fastest. I said it is the fastest and safest. That meaning, getting it any faster feels like too much wasted economy for not enough gain. You could sacrifice getting it a little slower, and be even safer, by getting pool on 13 or 14, but as I said, fastest + safest. Not fastest, not safest, in between. And a handfull of seconds matters a lot if you have the time to micro, continue to inject and macro correctly. Get the roaches there soon enough, and they have to pull probes or lose buildings. Otherwise, they will just lose a few stalkers and zealots without much hit to their economy. You have to kill off probes untill you are ahead in dronecount or kill gateways ets. to make up the difference or else you will be behind in midgame. The later you attack with 7 roaches, the harder it is to make up that difference. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
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Archmage
United States169 Posts
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
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DC Elite
United States152 Posts
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
On October 23 2010 04:28 DC Elite wrote: Ill try anything against a P, since they usually 4 gate me (1500 diamond). However, like the 5rr, how do forcefields not simply crush this? I've gotten advice to 5rr, 7rr, baneling, and all speedling P's to be aggressive early game, but they all get stopped by forcefield. I suppose having an ovie around so the roaches can spit up the ramp to hit the building wall is basically a must. Yes. Make sure your first or second overlord is close enough to spot for your roaches. Don't worry about your roaches getting split in half on the ramp by a forcefield, they can all still damage up the ramp. If they block off completely, you can still attack close enough buildings and units. Try to snipe off any sentry if they get too close when casting. Protoss usualy can have 1 sentry, 1 stalker, 1 zealot, maybe almost another stalker out by the time a 7rr hits. They could also have 3-4 stalkers out if they are 2gating stalkers (not sure on the numbers exactly). But if they are spending that gas early, then they can't transition into a higher tech counter AND make all those early units. So forcing those units early delays any early stargate or robo tech. If P goes for 1gate robo, they can squeeze out an immortal a few moments after you start attacking their wall (which will be easy if they only have a zealot and maybe a sentry or stalker) But the immortal, if they pull probes and control well enough, will take care of your roaches. BUT you will still kill off probes if you micro 3roaches per probe (don't target fire 7 roaches on 1 probe, it only takes 3) And if its just 6-7 roaches vs 1 immortal without probes, your can fight it off and kill it, or at least push it back till you can kill probes. I suppose if P went for 2 sentries or more early, they could delay your roaches quite a bit. But they will have sunk a good amount of gas, so it still buys you a little time to catch up. | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
On October 20 2010 12:52 KandLeMaN wrote: You have to scout it out. On 2P maps I don't scout, on 4P I scout after making my OL at 10/10. It is more susceptible to being held off on 4P maps though due to the distance, but they would have to hard-counter marauder or stalker by chance without getting a scout on you for that to happen. 24 hours ago I was Silver league and now I am Rank 11 in my Platinum league (jumped there from Gold) and just beat a 1200 Diamond player with it. It's not so much that it's an all-in or cheese build, but for the first time in SC2, I am able to be the aggressor in the early game and set the tone of the match. Being able to expand while you move out or mass speedlings to win the game outright is a very flexible position to be in. Now I am wondering what tech-paths to follow afterwards. Should I go Roach/Hydra/Infestor or Muta/Slings? Is one more preferable vs. T or P? I suggest infestors, but that's cos i'm severely biased towards them. I haven't used this BO (firm believer of the 5RR myself), but i find a nice way to think of transitions is: - Do i want to be aggressive? Go mutalisks first and other tech 2nd (usually hydras) - Do i want to be defensive? Go infestors first and other tech 2nd (usually mutas or start upgrading your roaches for some infestor/roach play) - Do i want to pretend i know what i'm doing but lose anyway? Go hydras (then lose unless the enemy is a bad player) If you opt for infestors i'd suggest this: get pit up when you hit lair and start energy research asap. You can begin infestor production when energy upgrade is about halfway done (will allow them to hatch moments after upgrade is done). Get about 2-3 infestors then start on spire. That way you should get mutas out by the time you need them, and if not you can always hold off the enemy attack with infestors+lings [edit] as for sentry questions. The toss usually only has 1 sentry out (during a 5RR, but i assume it'd still be 1 sentry if you do this build too). All 1 sentry can do is slow you down slighty, but once the field ends you just continue the push as normal. | ||
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JmpEax
Australia6 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On October 23 2010 16:24 JmpEax wrote: In silver, terran's always massing marines, doesn't work. roaches are good against marines. Anyway this is zvp strat, and in silver it shouldn't matter what you do as long as you execute well and macro up. I have had a lot of success with this build in 2's, and the 4:45-5min timing is great for me for an initial 2v push. Thanks a lot for sharing, and I am interested to read more opinions on this build and any tweaks people come up with. | ||
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