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A blind 7rr into expand + drone + lair follow up.
Not to be confused with the 5RR, or other 7RR all in type builds. Although this is a variant, I feel its safer vs some openings like cannon cheese, 15nexus, zealot heavy 4wg (Korean style) 2gate heavy pressure, and pretty much delays any 1gate into tech builds.
This build is basically the fastest, safest way you can get 7 roaches fielded for a timing attack. It isn't followed by additional reinforcements, like speedlings in the 5RR, but uses extra larvae to gain an economic advantage.
*edit*
I changed 10 OL to 9OL. The change allows for an extra drone before the roaches.
9 OL
12pool
Drones to 16
(extractor with 14th drone when it pops, which is almost right around when the 16th drone will start with 9ol)
15 OL
15 Queen + lings
(3 drones on gas)
18 drone
19 drone
+ Show Spoiler +***don't make a drone on 19 if you mess up any timings or had any idle mining time for whatever reason. It will end up delaying the 7th roach because you have to wait for minerals and/or you won't have 7 larvae on pop, only 6. If everything is timed right you can have the extra drone***.
20 OL
(use lings to kill scout, then scout with the lings)
@ 70-80% queen completion, build roach warren
33/34 OL
33/34 Drone
When the queen pops, you inject larvae, fight off any scout to try and keep the warren hidden. Find their base with your lings or your first OL. When warren pops, so do the inject larvae, giving 7 larvae total, and you will have exactly enough min/gas to make 7 roaches
(If the bo is timed right, otherwise you are short about 50 minerals and wait ~ 3-5 seconds for 7th roach)
Pull drones off gas at 176 (or right after you make your roaches, this happens at the same time unless there was a mineral delay, pull gas before roaches at 176)
7roaches start building, inject larvae.
Build an OL with next larvae. Next 6 larvae are drones, and you put down an expo at 300minerals, throw 3 drones on gas again. If you send out a drone right behind your roaches when they spawn, the drone will arrive at an expo at 300minerals.
Depending on what the attack situation is, you either want to get ling speed with next 100gas or tech lair with the next 100. I usually tech lair if my roaches are still going strong.
Get a creep tumor instead of injecting a 3rd time. (inject -> roaches, inject -> drones, next 25 energy is creep tumor) Creep towards ramp and put down a spinecrawler and/or make a few roaches and/or lings if you think there is a counter or a runby. This usually happens if they sneek out a small force during your 7rr attack. (if your getting lings, you probably started ling speed @100g, like if there are marauders or stalkers fielded) Get your 2nd gas up after you are saturated on minerals and 1st gas.
You have to deal significant damage with the roaches before you lose them, or else you can be counter attacked before your ling speed, or hydra production kicks in. If you are forced to make more roaches to defend, you will probably end up losing a longer game, or end up even at the best. The 7rr transitions really well into a macro game assuming you picked off some pylons, units, and force him to pull probes, and didn't get countered in a base trade type situation. 3 roaches 1shot a probe, so if you have 3+ roaches in a mineral line, put each 3 in its own control group so you don't overkill single targets.
I default going hydra after lair in this build. I get mutas shortly after that when I have 2base running, corruptors for collossi, and play it out by ear, usually from the lead.
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How fast do you have the roaches out? Like 5-ish?
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You need 7RR to counter the 30TR. But I don't think you can do that without the 14GG.
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On October 18 2010 07:37 lisherwin wrote:
You need 7RR to counter the 30TR. But I don't think you can do that without the 14GG. Say that again in english plz lol
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Just to be clear, the difference between this build and the 5RR is that you cut 2 drones and zergling speed for additional roaches? I think I'd prefer to have a few zerglings, stalkers can still kite roaches forever can't they?
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On October 18 2010 07:44 TheFinalWord wrote:
Just to be clear, the difference between this build and the 5RR is that you cut 2 drones and zergling speed for additional roaches? I think I'd prefer to have a few zerglings, stalkers can still kite roaches forever can't they?
It is a little alleviated with 4 range to roach. Sure they can kite, but you are going to break down a wall and get to the mineral line in the process. Plus with 2 more roaches, you have more logivity to the attack, while you get drones at home instead of lings, like with the 5 roach.
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On October 18 2010 07:44 TheFinalWord wrote:
stalkers can still kite roaches forever can't they?
As long as they can retreat forever, yes.
Your replay is, unfortunately, not a very good indicator the success of this build. Your opponent was, sadly, quite depressing as a Protoss player. Despite his poor opening macro and lack of a BO, he could have caused you some severe trouble with his counter attack if he'd reinforced with Sentries, kept your ramp FF and just didn't try to get into your main.
If you continue with this build, I think you could certainly use some refinement as you end up with quite a surplus of minerals. Perhaps a third in-base hatch? I'm not a Zerg player, so I can't offer too much advice. But, as a Protoss player, I can certainly say your opponent was subpar compared to you in this particular replay.
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Yeah, about the replay, it is just to showcase the BO, and not so much the actual play by both me and the opponent. I also noticed him not FF my ramp, which I kind of expected, and I actually thought it would buy me time  but he didnt and came up. The 3rd inbase hatch is probably the best bet in a mineral surpluss, although i think I was going for a 2:1 ratio of min/gas to pump out a round of hydras, but I don't remember.
Again, the replay is just a rough example of the BO.
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i used this against T and it works very well if T goes 1-1-1 or factory based , but if you see double rax you better pullback and build a few spines...
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On October 18 2010 08:11 P00RKID wrote:Yeah, about the replay, it is just to showcase the BO, and not so much the actual play by both me and the opponent. I also noticed him not FF my ramp, which I kind of expected, and I actually thought it would buy me time but he didnt and came up. The 3rd inbase hatch is probably the best bet in a mineral surpluss, although i think I was going for a 2:1 ratio of min/gas to pump out a round of hydras, but I don't remember. Again, the replay is just a rough example of the BO.
Ah, ok. You seemed to execute it well enough, but it's really hard to tell without an opponent to force you to use it to its fullest, or as close to that as possible.
You did spend your resources eventually, but you were on a pretty big surplus of minerals over gas for a large portion of the game (until about the time you started your 4th Hatch, I think).
Edit: Perhaps some more speedlings/spines to be annoying or as defense until Hydras come out (instead of Roach defense).
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Yah I think getting a spine crawler or two would be pretty easy and would save gas, perhaps even not going for the 3rd gas as soon, so I can afford more drones, and the crawlers if needed.
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P00RKID ,
I just started using this build after reading this thread and it's working out wonderfully for me so far. After getting promoted from Silver to Gold, I was getting stomped by Protoss when I tried to do a FE Macro based game. I would have a good mix of slings/roaches/hydras and would just get rolled by mass stalkers with collosus.
However, now with this build I am on the offensive and getting wins in ~10 minutes while a macro-based game takes about ~20-25. Anyway, I had a 4 game losing streak before trying this build, and now have a 7 game winning streak, 5 from this build and 2 from a 6pool rush
Also, it is keeping my minerals/gas down greatly. My Avg. Unspent is around 250 now and when the push hits with 6 roaches with more being queued in P is hard pressed to defend, T as well.
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I'll admit I didn't give 5RR a lot of tests but it didn't feel good to me. It might be 1.1.2, or additional experience, but 7RR feels a lot better.
A few observations I had while testing it both against AI and on the ladder:
I used the extractor trick, so my BO is 11 overlord 13 pool and the rest the same
The lings will pop at ~3:20 game time, the roaches at ~5:10
The drone count at ~5:10 is 15 compared to a drone count of 16 at ~3:45 from a 13 pool/13 gas
3 roaches can 1-shot a marine
The 32 hatch leaves you vulnerable to a timed counter-attack if the roaches are suicided
Wall experiences:
With my shoddy micro I pushed through a rax/depot wall and 8 marines
With a forge fast expand I pushed through the forge and canon
I could not push through a canon gauntlet at the ramp top (with visibility this might work but the P was teching anyway)
Thanks for sharing the build.
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It's because 5RR and any variation of it is pretty much garbage unless you catch someone with an awkward tech build.
Idra only did it vs that one terran on xel'naga as a joke.
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Hm, this build seems a bit risky compared to the regular 5RR, because you cut 3 drones until the roaches pop. 3 drones is a lot if you want an economic follow-through, so those 2 extra roaches need to pay for themselves, there is no aborting the attack if it looks unfavorable. I might try it out because the 4 range roaches allow for some nice pressure against wall-offs without engaging the defending units, but I think 5 roaches can do that job as well.
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On October 18 2010 17:18 Sirion wrote:
Hm, this build seems a bit risky compared to the regular 5RR, because you cut 3 drones until the roaches pop. 3 drones is a lot if you want an economic follow-through, so those 2 extra roaches need to pay for themselves, there is no aborting the attack if it looks unfavorable.
This is what I was alluding to with drone comparisons to a 13 pool/13 gas. There is a substantial drone hit so the roaches need to offset this with a lot of damage. When I pressured the wall structures or ground forces, I won. When I had to pull back, I lost.
A 14 pool/15 hatch has not droned past 7RR when the 7 roaches pop. While 7RR is getting 32 hatch, the 15 hatch is droning hard. Regardless, I feel very vulnerable with the 15 hatch but safer as the aggressor.
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I've just been trying this build out on the ladder, and it works very well against P/T. Unless they scout it and prepare for it, it does a lot of damage and allows me to go into the midgame very strong. Sometimes it just wins outright.
My problem with zerg is always going into the midgame with a disadvantage from early pressure. Even if my opponent doesn't manage to do much damage, my macro suffers. This build gives me plenty of breathing room.
Against zerg it's a bit problematic. I fought an opponent who went researched speed and sent 6 lings to my base. I managed to hold them off and get my 7 roaches out, but he knew they were coming, and by the time I got to his base he had 6 roaches and 4 speedlings. It was gg right there. It seems vs. zerg it's better to get a few speedlings and then a few roaches, and work from there.
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Since this thread got pointed out in another thread about 7RR, just want to point out a couple things.
First of all, never ever suggest 10OL in a build. Yeah, I know, cool uses it. Every other pro is doing 9OL because it's better. And if you want to do something with the 10th drone (scout, whatever), 11OL on an extractor trick is better. *always*
Second, you can 14pool, drone up to 17, extractor trick to get the queen when the pool finishes, squeeze in a couple extra drones, and only knock 2-3 seconds off the roach timing.
Doing this will give you enough minerals to expand just as the roaches are popping out.
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On October 20 2010 07:50 Skrag wrote:
Second, you can 14pool, drone up to 17, extractor trick to get the queen when the pool finishes, squeeze in a couple extra drones, and only knock 2-3 seconds off the roach timing.
When are you getting the pool in a 14 versus 12? When doing 12, it flows naturally into the queen, 2 lings, RW while preventing a scout from seeing the Warren.
I feel if you go 14, you are delaying your Queen, not getting any zlings and leaving yourself very vulnerable to a scout seeing your RW, killing it's effectiveness.
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On October 18 2010 07:04 P00RKID wrote:
This build is basically the fastest, safest way you can get 7 roaches fielded for a timing attack.
10 overpool or 11 overpool is faster as far as I know so don't say this 12 pool build is the fastest.
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On October 20 2010 10:04 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 07:04 P00RKID wrote:
This build is basically the fastest, safest way you can get 7 roaches fielded for a timing attack. 10 overpool or 11 overpool is faster as far as I know so don't say this 12 pool build is the fastest.
While this is true, they both make sacrifices for the extra speed, and only gain a handful of seconds.
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On October 20 2010 09:51 KandLeMaN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 07:50 Skrag wrote:
Second, you can 14pool, drone up to 17, extractor trick to get the queen when the pool finishes, squeeze in a couple extra drones, and only knock 2-3 seconds off the roach timing. When are you getting the pool in a 14 versus 12? When doing 12, it flows naturally into the queen, 2 lings, RW while preventing a scout from seeing the Warren. I feel if you go 14, you are delaying your Queen, not getting any zlings and leaving yourself very vulnerable to a scout seeing your RW, killing it's effectiveness.
Um...you get the pool at...14?
It does delay the pool and therefore the queen slightly, but not by nearly as much as you think, and you can still get 2 lings as soon as the pool finishes if you want, you just have to not squeeze in one of the extra drones, stopping at 16 instead of 17. Then you can extractor trick for the queen + a set of lings.
The timings are *very* close. It really is just a matter of a couple seconds worth of delay, for a much more economical start.
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you say 18 overlord, bringing you up to 18/26 supply? meaning you can build 4 roaches!?
what am I missing?
EDIT: nvm, see the 15 overlord. delete?
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On October 20 2010 10:15 shutdown_exploded wrote:
you say 18 overlord, bringing you up to 18/26 supply? meaning you can build 4 roaches!?
what am I missing?
you missed 15 overlord. I wouldn't say it's necessary though - two at 18 seem to be fine
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On October 20 2010 10:17 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 10:15 shutdown_exploded wrote:
you say 18 overlord, bringing you up to 18/26 supply? meaning you can build 4 roaches!?
what am I missing? you missed 15 overlord. I wouldn't say it's necessary though - two at 18 seem to be fine
Yeah, unless you're trying to squeeze out extra drones, you don't end up building anything after 18 anyway, and I don't think you *can* squeeze out extra drones with the 12 pool. That larva would be better off going toward a drone.
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i tried it and it's pretty good.
works well against terran too
vs t i usually follow up with fast tech to get mutas out, as for p i usually follow up with spines and more low tech and just massing drones. since the buff looks like mass roaches is really good against everything but collosi/mass stalkers.
~i'm 1350 diamond
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How does it fair on 4P map cross position?
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On October 20 2010 12:46 Penetrates wrote:
How does it fair on 4P map cross position?
You have to scout it out. On 2P maps I don't scout, on 4P I scout after making my OL at 10/10. It is more susceptible to being held off on 4P maps though due to the distance, but they would have to hard-counter marauder or stalker by chance without getting a scout on you for that to happen.
24 hours ago I was Silver league and now I am Rank 11 in my Platinum league (jumped there from Gold) and just beat a 1200 Diamond player with it.
It's not so much that it's an all-in or cheese build, but for the first time in SC2, I am able to be the aggressor in the early game and set the tone of the match. Being able to expand while you move out or mass speedlings to win the game outright is a very flexible position to be in.
Now I am wondering what tech-paths to follow afterwards. Should I go Roach/Hydra/Infestor or Muta/Slings? Is one more preferable vs. T or P?
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Against protoss I like hydras, especially if they think I'm going muta. I like nothing more than when P goes stargate before robo and a few pheonix, because it is a delayed collossus and that gives tons of time to take a 3rd and sometimes 4th and just defend with good creep spread and hydra+roach. If they delay robo even more and go HT or something, you can add in burrow and infestor to fungal any blink or charge tech he may go, or even fungal detect any DT. Fungal, also good against archons that are in that tech rout.
If they go normal robo, then mutaling is the way to go, adding melee upgrades and eventually getting ultra is what I (try to remember to) do.
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You mentioned that you should lay down a tumor with your 3rd energy refill. However, your replay shows you injecting on the 3rd refill.
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I've just recently started laddering and I have to say, I wish I read through this thread before I played my placement matches and getting placed on silver.
Before reading this, I was using the 5RR build and met a 5-5 (win-loss) record before I called it a night and rested after an adrenaline rush of gaming (actually, I had to 7pool the poor low gold player I played against just to get my 5th win in 10 tries).
Today, on my first try of this build, I was matched up against a rank 8 gold protoss and beat him. With subpar micro, I was able to push up his ramp and pushed his defense back (he had 2 stalkers and a zealot when my roaches got there, and warping in a robo), and he warped in with a couple more stalkers and zealots) while reinforcing my roaches with slowlings (the upgrade wasn't finished yet). My ling reinforcements helped with the zealots and stalkers, while a few raped the mining probes.
IMHO, this build feels better than the 5RR because I didn't have to worry about my economy being too behind. I feel that should the push even fail, I'll have a lair on the way and a second mining hatchery so teching up wouldn't be too difficult.
A big thank you to the OP for coming up with this and sharing with the community.
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On October 20 2010 21:05 JmpEax wrote:
You mentioned that you should lay down a tumor with your 3rd energy refill. However, your replay shows you injecting on the 3rd refill.
Idealy, you should get a creep tumor, as getting the hatchery and lair will leave you too broke to also spend money on extra larvae. I think I either made a mistake, or wanted more lings or something, it doesn't really matter. If you can get away with the creep tumor instead of a few more units, go for it, it will go a long way towards helping defend the natural and spreading creep mid game.
On October 20 2010 10:13 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 10:04 Xapti wrote:On October 18 2010 07:04 P00RKID wrote:
This build is basically the fastest, safest way you can get 7 roaches fielded for a timing attack. 10 overpool or 11 overpool is faster as far as I know so don't say this 12 pool build is the fastest. While this is true, they both make sacrifices for the extra speed, and only gain a handful of seconds.
I didn't say it is the fastest. I said it is the fastest and safest. That meaning, getting it any faster feels like too much wasted economy for not enough gain. You could sacrifice getting it a little slower, and be even safer, by getting pool on 13 or 14, but as I said, fastest + safest. Not fastest, not safest, in between.
And a handfull of seconds matters a lot if you have the time to micro, continue to inject and macro correctly. Get the roaches there soon enough, and they have to pull probes or lose buildings. Otherwise, they will just lose a few stalkers and zealots without much hit to their economy. You have to kill off probes untill you are ahead in dronecount or kill gateways ets. to make up the difference or else you will be behind in midgame. The later you attack with 7 roaches, the harder it is to make up that difference.
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a nice replacement for 5rr. i especially like how i can make a wave of lings and upgrade speed after building the 7 roaches for backup if my push is successful and of course expoing when the roaches move out is awesome too.
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If this works, then this would be a very nice tool for Zergs to have. Is this viable in the upper diamond level, and which races or builds does this fail against?
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I don't like using it much vs Terrans, simply because when they see roaches coming they can add a bunker behind their wall and its hard to break through depots being repaired with another bunker behind it. They'll probably have a marauder out by then too, which does alot of damage behind the wall. If you do break in however, its pretty much gg for them since you can kill their army pretty easily. Keep in mind not everyone keeps their scout inside your base, they often run away and come back after a minute or so and if your roaches are heading out, you'll kill the scv but they see what's coming and have ample time to prepare
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Ill try anything against a P, since they usually 4 gate me (1500 diamond). However, like the 5rr, how do forcefields not simply crush this? I've gotten advice to 5rr, 7rr, baneling, and all speedling P's to be aggressive early game, but they all get stopped by forcefield. I suppose having an ovie around so the roaches can spit up the ramp to hit the building wall is basically a must.
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On October 23 2010 04:28 DC Elite wrote:
Ill try anything against a P, since they usually 4 gate me (1500 diamond). However, like the 5rr, how do forcefields not simply crush this? I've gotten advice to 5rr, 7rr, baneling, and all speedling P's to be aggressive early game, but they all get stopped by forcefield. I suppose having an ovie around so the roaches can spit up the ramp to hit the building wall is basically a must.
Yes. Make sure your first or second overlord is close enough to spot for your roaches. Don't worry about your roaches getting split in half on the ramp by a forcefield, they can all still damage up the ramp. If they block off completely, you can still attack close enough buildings and units. Try to snipe off any sentry if they get too close when casting.
Protoss usualy can have 1 sentry, 1 stalker, 1 zealot, maybe almost another stalker out by the time a 7rr hits. They could also have 3-4 stalkers out if they are 2gating stalkers (not sure on the numbers exactly). But if they are spending that gas early, then they can't transition into a higher tech counter AND make all those early units. So forcing those units early delays any early stargate or robo tech.
If P goes for 1gate robo, they can squeeze out an immortal a few moments after you start attacking their wall (which will be easy if they only have a zealot and maybe a sentry or stalker) But the immortal, if they pull probes and control well enough, will take care of your roaches. BUT you will still kill off probes if you micro 3roaches per probe (don't target fire 7 roaches on 1 probe, it only takes 3) And if its just 6-7 roaches vs 1 immortal without probes, your can fight it off and kill it, or at least push it back till you can kill probes.
I suppose if P went for 2 sentries or more early, they could delay your roaches quite a bit. But they will have sunk a good amount of gas, so it still buys you a little time to catch up.
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On October 20 2010 12:52 KandLeMaN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 12:46 Penetrates wrote:
How does it fair on 4P map cross position? You have to scout it out. On 2P maps I don't scout, on 4P I scout after making my OL at 10/10. It is more susceptible to being held off on 4P maps though due to the distance, but they would have to hard-counter marauder or stalker by chance without getting a scout on you for that to happen. 24 hours ago I was Silver league and now I am Rank 11 in my Platinum league (jumped there from Gold) and just beat a 1200 Diamond player with it. It's not so much that it's an all-in or cheese build, but for the first time in SC2, I am able to be the aggressor in the early game and set the tone of the match. Being able to expand while you move out or mass speedlings to win the game outright is a very flexible position to be in. Now I am wondering what tech-paths to follow afterwards. Should I go Roach/Hydra/Infestor or Muta/Slings? Is one more preferable vs. T or P?
I suggest infestors, but that's cos i'm severely biased towards them. I haven't used this BO (firm believer of the 5RR myself), but i find a nice way to think of transitions is:
- Do i want to be aggressive? Go mutalisks first and other tech 2nd (usually hydras)
- Do i want to be defensive? Go infestors first and other tech 2nd (usually mutas or start upgrading your roaches for some infestor/roach play)
- Do i want to pretend i know what i'm doing but lose anyway? Go hydras (then lose unless the enemy is a bad player)
If you opt for infestors i'd suggest this:
get pit up when you hit lair and start energy research asap. You can begin infestor production when energy upgrade is about halfway done (will allow them to hatch moments after upgrade is done). Get about 2-3 infestors then start on spire. That way you should get mutas out by the time you need them, and if not you can always hold off the enemy attack with infestors+lings
[edit]
as for sentry questions. The toss usually only has 1 sentry out (during a 5RR, but i assume it'd still be 1 sentry if you do this build too). All 1 sentry can do is slow you down slighty, but once the field ends you just continue the push as normal.
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In silver, terran's always massing marines, doesn't work.
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On October 23 2010 16:24 JmpEax wrote:
In silver, terran's always massing marines, doesn't work.
roaches are good against marines. Anyway this is zvp strat, and in silver it shouldn't matter what you do as long as you execute well and macro up.
I have had a lot of success with this build in 2's, and the 4:45-5min timing is great for me for an initial 2v push. Thanks a lot for sharing, and I am interested to read more opinions on this build and any tweaks people come up with.
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I thought I would share my findings with this build:
First off, I want to say I've been using this build A LOT in my games, not just vs. Protoss, and have found it quite effective.
Second, I believe I have improved your build slightly (credit to evo chamber):
+ Show Spoiler +10 ExtractorTrick M:78 G:0 11 Overlord M:100 G:0 11 SpawningPool M:200 G:0 15 Extractor M:112 G:0 15 Overlord M:225 G:0 15 Queen M:154 G:0 17 +1 Drone on gas M:76 G:0 17 +1 Drone on gas M:76 G:0 17 Zergling M:121 G:5 18 +1 Drone on gas M:71 G:5 19 RoachWarren M:271 G:61 18 Overlord M:121 G:61 18 Roach M:477 G:166 20 Roach M:402 G:141 22 Roach M:327 G:116 24 Roach M:252 G  1 26 Roach M:177 G:66 28 Roach M:102 G:41 30 Roach M:77 G:27
+ Show Spoiler +@0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone @0:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:17 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:17 M:54 G:0 L:3 S:7/10 BuildDrone @0:27 M:51 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone @0:32 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:34 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:38 M:55 G:0 L:2 S /10 BuildDrone @0:44 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:47 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:51 M:78 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 ExtractorTrick @0:51 M:53 G:0 L:2 S /10 BuildDrone @0:53 Spawned: Extractor Trick Finished, Drone Restored @0:55 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:02 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:03 M:100 G:0 L:2 S:11/10 BuildOverlord @1:08 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:17 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:28 Spawned: Overlord+1 @1:30 M:200 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildSpawningPool@1:32 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:38 M:55 G:0 L:3 S:10/18 BuildDrone @1:45 M:53 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildDrone @1:52 M:50 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone @1:53 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:55 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:59 M:51 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 BuildDrone @2:02 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:08 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:08 M:73 G:0 L:1 S:14/18 BuildDrone @2:09 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:16 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:18 M:112 G:0 L:0 S:15/18 BuildExtractor @2:23 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:23 M:132 G:0 L:1 S:14/18 BuildDrone @2:25 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:35 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1 @2:38 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:38 M:225 G:0 L:1 S:15/18 BuildOverlord @2:40 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:41 M:154 G:0 L:0 S:15/18 BuildQueen @2:48 Spawned: Extractor+1 @2:48 M:76 G:0 L:0 S:17/18 MineGas @2:48 M:76 G:0 L:0 S:17/18 MineGas @2:50 Mining: +1 on gas @2:50 Mining: +1 on gas @2:53 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:53 M:121 G:5 L:1 S:17/18 BuildZergling @2:53 M:71 G:5 L:0 S:18/18 MineGas @2:55 Mining: +1 on gas @3:03 Spawned: Overlord+1 @3:08 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:08 M:196 G:33 L:1 S:18/26 BuildDrone @3:17 Spawned: Zergling+2@3:23 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:23 M:271 G:61 L:1 S:19/26 BuildRoachWarren@3:23 M:121 G:61 L:1 S:18/26 BuildOverlord @3:25 Spawned: Drone+1 ---Waypoint 0--- At time: 3:30 Minerals: 77 Gas: 75 Supply: 18/26 Larva: 0 Drones: 15 Overlords: 3 Zerglings: 2 Gas Extractors: 1 Spawning Pools: 1 ---------------- @3:31 Spawned: Queen+1 @3:38 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:48 Spawned: Overlord+1 @3:53 Spawned: Larva+1 ---Waypoint 1--- At time: 4:00 Minerals: 327 Gas: 132 Supply: 18/34 Larva: 2 Drones: 15 Overlords: 4 Queens: 1 Zerglings: 2 Hatcheries: 1 Gas Extractors: 1 Spawning Pools: 1 ---------------- @4:08 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:16 Spawned: Larva+4 @4:18 Spawned: Roach Warren+1@4:18 M:477 G:166 L:7 S:18/34 BuildRoach @4:18 M:402 G:141 L:6 S:20/34 BuildRoach @4:18 M:327 G:116 L:5 S:22/34 BuildRoach @4:18 M:252 G 1 L:4 S:24/34 BuildRoach @4:18 M:177 G:66 L:3 S:26/34 BuildRoach @4:18 M:102 G:41 L:2 S:28/34 BuildRoach @4:24 M:77 G:27 L:1 S:30/34 BuildRoach @4:33 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:33 M:77 G:19 L:1 S:32/34 BuildDrone @4:45 Spawned: Roach+1 @4:45 Spawned: Roach+1 @4:45 Spawned: Roach+1 @4:45 Spawned: Roach+1 @4:45 Spawned: Roach+1 @4:45 Spawned: Roach+1 @4:48 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:50 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:51 Spawned: Roach+1Satisfied. Number of actions in build order: 53 -------Goal------- Drones: 15 Queens: 1 Zerglings: 2 Roaches: 7 Roach Warrens: 1 ---Final Output---
At time: 4:51
Minerals: 177 Gas: 54 Supply: 33/34 Larva: 1
Drones: 16
Overlords: 4
Queens: 1
Zerglings: 2
Roaches: 7
Hatcheries: 1
Gas Extractors: 1
Spawning Pools: 1
Roach Warrens: 1------------------ Sun Nov 07 02:09:20 KST 2010: 1106568.298437666
This refined build gets zerglings 1 second sooner, roaches 20 seconds sooner, and nets you 1 extra drone.
This means instead of 5:10 7RR, you get a 4:50 7RR. Only FIVE SECONDS longer than the all-in variant, and sets you up for a FE when you push and heavy macro transition as in your goal.
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@OP. I really like this version of the 7RR. I was using the all-in version up until now, and it's mostly backfired against me. This version not only gets me roaches at around the same time as the all-in version, but also gives me more options. I like to follow up with 10-14 lings (on the next larvae pop) to run in and clean up what the roaches couldn't stop, or to just kill off all of the foe's workers. I've used it twice against Terran now with utter success.
Edit: Just won against another Terran and two Protoss players. ZvP has been my weakest matchup so far. This makes it so easy to beat them. I have a feeling that Blizzard is going to patch this soon. Probably expect Roach Warrens to either cost gas, or have an increased build time (or both).
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Guess I'm sticking with 5rr over this, just plugged the timings into a build calc, and I'd rather have 6 speedlings and 5 roach over 7 roaches when I hit a base and then a constant stream of speedlings behind them, check out my timings to see if I messed up
5 roach rush
7 Roach Rush
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On November 07 2010 06:59 KingKiron wrote:Guess I'm sticking with 5rr over this, just plugged the timings into a build calc, and I'd rather have 6 speedlings and 5 roach over 7 roaches when I hit a base and then a constant stream of speedlings behind them, check out my timings to see if I messed up 5 roach rush7 Roach Rush
wanted to say thanks again for showing this 5RR+speedling build. Especially in the non 1's I've been playing lately, this build allows for tremendous flexibility in army comp, and is still a very strong rush.
(Also your 7RR link is broken, although I don't need to see it for any reason.)
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Just out of curiosity, how many points are you?
Admittedly, I'm not high up in Diamond myself but from experience most of the roach openings are all ins or incredibly close to all ins(as in you start off with a disadvantage).
With these roach rushes you're banking on dealing some kind of damage.
Sure you have an expo but you don't have the drones, people forget about larva which is one of the most important "hidden" resources in the early game.
I think it's possible to "transition" to the mid game and possibly even late game but already you'll be in a bad position compared to your opponent economically, without dealing any sort of harvester harass at some point during the game you're sure to lose.
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@THatsNoMoon, Some people follow the 7rr with lings, some follow it with drones. I get the drones and try to power as long as I can while putting pressure on the opponent for as long as I can with the 7 roaches. With enough damage then you get ahead economically, or at least that is the strategy in this build with making drones instead of the lings.
And yes you will be in a bad position economically without dealing economic damage, but the good news is that you are sending 7 roaches to do just that.
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On November 15 2010 12:48 P00RKID wrote:
@THatsNoMoon, Some people follow the 7rr with lings, some follow it with drones. I get the drones and try to power as long as I can while putting pressure on the opponent for as long as I can with the 7 roaches. With enough damage then you get ahead economically, or at least that is the strategy in this build with making drones instead of the lings.
And yes you will be in a bad position economically without dealing economic damage, but the good news is that you are sending 7 roaches to do just that.
I find that one sentry buys enough time to get warp.
It took me around 7 losses to get hang of proper timings and once I figured that out its simply a matter of scouting and a songle properly placed ffield.
This does totally crush 2 gate or stalker openings.
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Even with just a single forcefield the roaches can still be attacking anything that is built on the ramp or units near the ramp (OL spotter needed), and in some cases, all I use the roaches for is to kill pylons and gateways and a little micro back and forth with stalkers and zealots, since I often find my roaches stopped by a forcefield or split by one.
B-lineing for the probes is a bad idea, make him bring them to your roaches. And a forcefield is the best defense, but the best response to the forcefield is to pick off anything within range still, especially pylons.
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On November 15 2010 12:54 ThatsNoMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 12:48 P00RKID wrote:
@THatsNoMoon, Some people follow the 7rr with lings, some follow it with drones. I get the drones and try to power as long as I can while putting pressure on the opponent for as long as I can with the 7 roaches. With enough damage then you get ahead economically, or at least that is the strategy in this build with making drones instead of the lings.
And yes you will be in a bad position economically without dealing economic damage, but the good news is that you are sending 7 roaches to do just that. I find that one sentry buys enough time to get warp. It took me around 7 losses to get hang of proper timings and once I figured that out its simply a matter of scouting and a songle properly placed ffield. This does totally crush 2 gate or stalker openings.
agreeing with the post directly above me, a forcefield won't do anything.
the 7RR is a hard counter to anything involving 4gates before building a real army. So I fail to see how "just FF your ramp and then warp in a huge army" is going to win.
Even so, warping in 4 units to go with the 1zealot and 1sentry that will die before the next 4 Stalkers/sentries/zealots warp in aren't going to do much good.
You either cannon, or actually make make gateway units the sc1 way.
Also you should post a replay, because I guarantee you the people that 7RR'd you probably missed by about 20 seconds and/or micro'd poorly.
All you'll have if you're rushing wg tech is 1 zealot, 1 sentry and MAYBE 1 stalker finishing as the roaches come a-knockin'. A FF lasts 15 seconds and the warp-in time for units is 10 seconds. Further, the transition time to warpgates from gateways is another 10 seconds, meaning that if you're Forcefielding to buy you enough time to finish researching warpgates, you need to add that time PLUS 20 seconds until you get 4 more units.
The math doesn't add up and I call your bluff. Replay of 1FF countering a reasonably timed 7RR or you're lying .
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Don't smite me for resurrecting an old thread, but I just like the Roach Rush so much more. I've devised a build for it that's a bit atypical but I find actually gets the Roaches out very fast! (the Roaches are born at around 4:45 or 4:50 with this one).
Tell me what you think.
10/10 Overlord
11/18 Spawning Pool
16/18 Queen
18/18 Extractor x2 (2 Drones per Extractor ASAP)
18/18 Overlord x2
18/18 Roach Warren
17/34 Roach x7
31/34 Hatchery
34/34 Overlord
34/34 Lair
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On October 20 2010 07:50 Skrag wrote:
Since this thread got pointed out in another thread about 7RR, just want to point out a couple things.
First of all, never ever suggest 10OL in a build. Yeah, I know, cool uses it. Every other pro is doing 9OL because it's better. And if you want to do something with the 10th drone (scout, whatever), 11OL on an extractor trick is better. *always*
Second, you can 14pool, drone up to 17, extractor trick to get the queen when the pool finishes, squeeze in a couple extra drones, and only knock 2-3 seconds off the roach timing.
Doing this will give you enough minerals to expand just as the roaches are popping out.
listen to this guy!!!!!!!!!!!! love this post
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On January 27 2011 08:09 Sparkey wrote:
Don't smite me for resurrecting an old thread, but I just like the Roach Rush so much more. I've devised a build for it that's a bit atypical but I find actually gets the Roaches out very fast! (the Roaches are born at around 4:45 or 4:50 with this one).
Tell me what you think.
10/10 Overlord
11/18 Spawning Pool
16/18 Queen
18/18 Extractor x2 (2 Drones per Extractor ASAP)
18/18 Overlord x2
18/18 Roach Warren
17/34 Roach x7
31/34 Hatchery
34/34 Overlord
34/34 Lair
Look at the top of this page where the most economic 7RR with the same roach spawn timing is already posted.
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Actually, it's kind of fine if you get scouted, when he something going up, because then he bunkers up too much sometimes which hurts his eco more than yours.
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It's a bit of a thread highjack, but out of pure curiosity:
Does anybody in Master's league 5RR/7RR? Are those rushes actually solid enough to
1) do enough damage even against opponents who should have decent preparation or experience holding it?
2) continue with a reasonably even game if you don't do loads of damage?
I don't expect this to win outright in master's except if you just got very lucky. I don't expect it to be comparable to 15h14p if you can't get up the ramp.
But does this work often enough to make it a solid strategy to throw in every now and then?
(I only ladder, I don't play BoX, so if it only works to punish particularly greedy players, I'm not really interested, since I don't know my opponents in advance.)
I'm basically wondering whether I should start trying this again (I did pre-diamond) or whether it's really more of a gimmicky/all-in type build (like a 1-base baneling bust, 1-base muta).
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On January 27 2011 15:17 Yonkid wrote:
Actually, it's kind of fine if you get scouted, when he something going up, because then he bunkers up too much sometimes which hurts his eco more than yours.
Bunkers are essentially free. 7 Roaches costs you larva that should be 6 drones and 2 lings at that stage in the game. And his making a bunker completely crushes your rush. This isn't viable versus terran or zerg at all, and only somewhat viable versus a poorly executed 4gate rush or 3-gate XXX build.
On November 16 2010 10:29 mlbrandow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 12:54 ThatsNoMoon wrote:On November 15 2010 12:48 P00RKID wrote:
@THatsNoMoon, Some people follow the 7rr with lings, some follow it with drones. I get the drones and try to power as long as I can while putting pressure on the opponent for as long as I can with the 7 roaches. With enough damage then you get ahead economically, or at least that is the strategy in this build with making drones instead of the lings.
And yes you will be in a bad position economically without dealing economic damage, but the good news is that you are sending 7 roaches to do just that. I find that one sentry buys enough time to get warp. It took me around 7 losses to get hang of proper timings and once I figured that out its simply a matter of scouting and a songle properly placed ffield. This does totally crush 2 gate or stalker openings. agreeing with the post directly above me, a forcefield won't do anything. the 7RR is a hard counter to anything involving 4gates before building a real army. So I fail to see how "just FF your ramp and then warp in a huge army" is going to win. Even so, warping in 4 units to go with the 1zealot and 1sentry that will die before the next 4 Stalkers/sentries/zealots warp in aren't going to do much good. You either cannon, or actually make make gateway units the sc1 way. Also you should post a replay, because I guarantee you the people that 7RR'd you probably missed by about 20 seconds and/or micro'd poorly. All you'll have if you're rushing wg tech is 1 zealot, 1 sentry and MAYBE 1 stalker finishing as the roaches come a-knockin'. A FF lasts 15 seconds and the warp-in time for units is 10 seconds. Further, the transition time to warpgates from gateways is another 10 seconds, meaning that if you're Forcefielding to buy you enough time to finish researching warpgates, you need to add that time PLUS 20 seconds until you get 4 more units. The math doesn't add up and I call your bluff. Replay of 1FF countering a reasonably timed 7RR or you're lying .
I can't believe I wrote this two months ago.
Shows how down in the tank 7RR has gotten (and how biased my view was from using it in 2's so much).
It's not a good build because if properly responded to it fails utterly in almost every circumstance. Transitioning out of it still pits you far behind economically.
Anyway, the reason my post above from two months ago is because if you scout 7RR, you can just spend more chrono on your WG, and your sentry will have energy for 2 FFs by the time the first wears off.
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Seeing as i almost allways go 2 gate stargate in PvZ now, i say bring it 
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On January 27 2011 18:26 bmn wrote:
It's a bit of a thread highjack, but out of pure curiosity:
Does anybody in Master's league 5RR/7RR? Are those rushes actually solid enough to
1) do enough damage even against opponents who should have decent preparation or experience holding it?
2) continue with a reasonably even game if you don't do loads of damage?
I don't expect this to win outright in master's except if you just got very lucky. I don't expect it to be comparable to 15h14p if you can't get up the ramp.
But does this work often enough to make it a solid strategy to throw in every now and then?
(I only ladder, I don't play BoX, so if it only works to punish particularly greedy players, I'm not really interested, since I don't know my opponents in advance.)
I'm basically wondering whether I should start trying this again (I did pre-diamond) or whether it's really more of a gimmicky/all-in type build (like a 1-base baneling bust, 1-base muta).
I've recently been playing with a 10RR + bling opening vs Terran. Its a pretty complex build and has yet to be proven in the fire, but over the past week I've smoothed things out to be pretty scary.
It's starting to look like a hard counter to 2-rax. If it proves to have a follow-up rather than being all-in, I'll eventually post the BO and goals of it on TL.
7RR, however, isn't worth pursuing IMO.
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I do a variation of this vs. protoss with a 14pool to get the economy going with a focus on expanding as the roaches go out, and crawlers/drones after that.
Don't forget to have an OL at their ramp to spot. Makes the sentries useless.
I find too, seeing as how this isn't really a micro-intensive opening it's a great way to practice macroing while pushing a front, and it forces them to go robo which is really nice, as long as you get the roaches out fast enough.
If you see a stargate though, Queen up. Voids can break this strat if they get them out fast enough, and they can, believe me.
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On January 27 2011 18:26 bmn wrote:
It's a bit of a thread highjack, but out of pure curiosity:
Does anybody in Master's league 5RR/7RR? Are those rushes actually solid enough to
1) do enough damage even against opponents who should have decent preparation or experience holding it?
2) continue with a reasonably even game if you don't do loads of damage?
I don't expect this to win outright in master's except if you just got very lucky. I don't expect it to be comparable to 15h14p if you can't get up the ramp.
But does this work often enough to make it a solid strategy to throw in every now and then?
(I only ladder, I don't play BoX, so if it only works to punish particularly greedy players, I'm not really interested, since I don't know my opponents in advance.)
I'm basically wondering whether I should start trying this again (I did pre-diamond) or whether it's really more of a gimmicky/all-in type build (like a 1-base baneling bust, 1-base muta).
1) no, if the build doesnt surprise, you don't do much damage
2) no, at a higher level, you rely on doing damage to continue on with playing.
tbh, the build is only used on steppes, any other map it is very weak. Its like the baneling bust vs T from beta, everyone has figured out how to beat it by now, so it is only rarely used.
The OP is from october, and the OP is like 1-2 months after the build first came out anyway (the build was popular even well before roach range buff).
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Edit: oops, accodental post
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I'm in masters league and still use it sometimes, and only on close spawns metal/LT and steppes vT/P. Bunkers shut it down pretty well. You really do need to inflict some damage or you will be hopelessly behind. I use a 14 pool based build with an expo behind it. Roaches pop at 5:05 game time. Using an ovie to spot high ground is huge. Allows you to still inflict damage even if forcefields or bunkers go up. Also if villain isn't paying attention you can sometimes snipe off his sentry before he can throw ff.
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Dimaga said to me that 7RR is a semi-all-in.
Im using this macro follow up too and must say its very good vs terr/protoss if executed right.
The goal is to snipe some buildings, a couple workers but most importantly - impose your game.
Key things to remember:
1. Overlord at the ramp.
2. Pull back if cant inflict big damage. Better have 7 ill roaches heal up at home while macroing than having to use larvae to defend.
3. Even if he scouts and defends perfectly, you can pull back, have a safe expo, know exactly which tech path you forced him and also deny any kind of FE.
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Problem with 7rr is how easy it is to scout and how quickly you will get behind when it fails (not if. when.).
If the terran or protoss comes out of it with a cost efficient trade, you will lose. It needs to do damage or a decent player can macro safely and kill you. It's an all in. Anyone past gold league should have no trouble with this.
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@jungeMann -- Not sure why the bump, am I missing something new?-- 7RR is even worse now that FFE is generally preferred over 3gate expand. as Leargle mentioned, its ridiculously easy to scout and thus to defend, and since you sacrifice so much econ to get the roaches out you will be really far behind, likely without even getting inside their main.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-158553.jpg)
