|
On October 15 2010 06:43 Drakan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 06:37 Mystgun wrote:On October 15 2010 06:17 Drakan wrote:
LoL @ the complain.
Did you read well ?
now when uncharged they deal 10dmg to armored units instead of 5.
and when charged they were absolutely imbalanced killing vikings at sight before being able to make 2 shots, or instantly killing marines.
They will be very usefull in battles instead of only using the when they are in masses or to make sneak attacks/cheese when charged.
With speed they can avoid being killed by marines, and kill armored units.
The point you make is what I am ambivalent about. Half the fun of using void rays is to figure out creative ways to keep them charged, since it repays you in dividends if you manage to maintain charge. Now that charged damage has been reduced and uncharged damage has been increased, that gameplay mechanic has changed with less incentive to keep them charged. It adds a bit more flexibility to their playstyle but at the same time weakens their intended role. Another poster pointed out that this is analogous to buffing siege tank unsieged damage, but at the expense of siege mode. I understand but i've seen many progames being beated by 2 charged void rays and if you don't scout 1 of the 498.125.623 spots where protoss can hide a pylon there is no way to win as Zerg. What i think is that the Level 2 is WAYYY too nerfed, but it had to be nerfed anyway because it was ridiculous. I got tired of watching protoss winning using this strat against good players in the Garimto stream and another great example was IdrA being absolutely owned with no chance to survive after seeing 2 void rays. And i understand that many matches were interesting thanks to void ray micro, but they were MANY MORE matches were if a voidray hit a hatchery, a geyser, any structure, is instant win.
They should provide zerg a better early AA. The VR was fine. If anything, all they had to do was nerf the supply req from 3 to 4, and that fixes a bunch of the n00b QQs about VR massing.
|
On October 15 2010 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 06:14 DeckOneBell wrote:
I don't think 8+8 will be so bad, they'll probably still beat stalkers for cost, except they won't absolutely destroy stalkers any more. Honestly, probably nerfs them hardest in PvP, because of stalkers. Otherwise, looks like they're more combat-worthy units as opposed to purely building harass.
Turning them into more of a core army unit, I think, is good. Explain to me how having voidrays mixed into your army is better now than it was before.
The DPS boost vs armored when uncharged is actually very useful, and I do believe will add to the viability of the voidray as a core army unit. Part of the failure of the phoenix is how weak it is vs armored units, and how the delay of charge for voidrays made beating mass vikings/corruptors almost impossible. Now, the voidray will be able to deal with those pesky armored units protoss hates.
Think of the potential difference a voidray can now make in an engagement versus a zerg, where your voidrays engage the advancing roaches (now doing increased dmg vs armored to protect your zealot advance)- as the hydra army advances, your colossi clean up. 3 voidrays in a formerly pure ground army can (hypothetically) turn the tide.
Not to mention I envision a high templar/voidray/zealot combo being very deadly against a terran bio ball, since you can now deal with the marauders.
EDIT; I also don't believe this will take away from the enjoyment aspect of voidray micro, and I anticipate seeing top level players trying to keep the charge from starting so that they have that bonus vs armored in early game.
|
Bad change, VR was already trash. Too flimsy and so expensive, the only thing that made it viable was the fact that if charged it could do a ton of damage... Now stimmed marines, queens, missle turrets, and cannons have an easier time against it. Pathetic really, there is absolutely no reason to get this unit in 1v1 at all, in any matchup.
Don't talk about mixing VRs in with Colossus, that is so unviable at higher levels of play. You're going to spend extra on a stargate, and then get 1-4 EXPENSIVE units that the opponent, because they know you are going colossus, has already built a counter for? Be realistic, VRs are not to be seen in any matchup.
|
hmmm maybe blizzard should scrap the VR and give protoss another air unit thats viable but not OP?
and if one VR get killed by one queen they are in reality useless right now against the one race i actualy used it against, NOTHING stops any zerg from getting two queens before i get my VR out. in fact its standard to do that(FE).
I think blizz should unerf mothership siegtanks and carriers.
and give zerg their lurkes, toss dragoons, terran vulture, so that the dynamic in all matchups becomes better and semmingly more balanced,
I dont think SC2 is so radically imbalanced as many implies, but blizzard listen to its fans as usual and they will kinda widen the gap between the races if this goes on.
i think blizzard sometimes limits the ways that SC2 can be played and that really is sad because all the countless possibilites are what makes starcraft in generall some of the greatest RTS series of all times.
the pros should be the first blizzard goes to when trying to patch the game, because they seem to have really good ideas, at least some of them
well anyways i think carriers just became 110% more viable because the limitation set by the patch
|
Saying that voidrays do better uncharged is just plain dumb. Voidrays become good when they are charged. Charged. That was the whole idea behind it. I don't want to get voidrays if they are not good charged. I would get another colossus or something.
Now, if I was in a situation where I just happened to have some voidrays and there was a big scary marauder push coming or something, I would happily accept the change. As it stands, voidrays are a big investment to get for 10 damage against armored every 0.6 second. Colossus does 17X2 damage a swipe to multiple targets at range 9. Who in their right minds would get voidrays? Because voidrays are sooooooo good at killing air units?
|
On October 15 2010 06:46 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 06:43 Drakan wrote:On October 15 2010 06:37 Mystgun wrote:On October 15 2010 06:17 Drakan wrote:
LoL @ the complain.
Did you read well ?
now when uncharged they deal 10dmg to armored units instead of 5.
and when charged they were absolutely imbalanced killing vikings at sight before being able to make 2 shots, or instantly killing marines.
They will be very usefull in battles instead of only using the when they are in masses or to make sneak attacks/cheese when charged.
With speed they can avoid being killed by marines, and kill armored units.
The point you make is what I am ambivalent about. Half the fun of using void rays is to figure out creative ways to keep them charged, since it repays you in dividends if you manage to maintain charge. Now that charged damage has been reduced and uncharged damage has been increased, that gameplay mechanic has changed with less incentive to keep them charged. It adds a bit more flexibility to their playstyle but at the same time weakens their intended role. Another poster pointed out that this is analogous to buffing siege tank unsieged damage, but at the expense of siege mode. I understand but i've seen many progames being beated by 2 charged void rays and if you don't scout 1 of the 498.125.623 spots where protoss can hide a pylon there is no way to win as Zerg. What i think is that the Level 2 is WAYYY too nerfed, but it had to be nerfed anyway because it was ridiculous. I got tired of watching protoss winning using this strat against good players in the Garimto stream and another great example was IdrA being absolutely owned with no chance to survive after seeing 2 void rays. And i understand that many matches were interesting thanks to void ray micro, but they were MANY MORE matches were if a voidray hit a hatchery, a geyser, any structure, is instant win. They should provide zerg a better early AA. The VR was fine. If anything, all they had to do was nerf the supply req from 3 to 4, and that fixes a bunch of the n00b QQs about VR massing.
Queens are great AA its just zergs seem to refuse to use them. Once you get 3+ queens Xfuse becomes very very strong as Queens aren't armored. and have 7 range for their air attack.
Void Ray to Queen ratio
1 > 1
2 = 2 (xfuse)
3+ > 3+ (xfuse)
Queens only cost minerals and less supply while remaining useful the whole game. As long as you xfuse (@ 1400D I don't see xfuse almost ever) you can deal with them effectively and will be very very ahead.
|
The unit is just poorly designed.
The charge makes them too strong in large numbers and battles that last a long time. Why would you ever build carriers when you can use these instead?
Now maybe they'll have a niche harass role? I dunno.
Just like the reaper they're stupid and gimmicky without any real purpose.
I liked the phasing a lot if they could've found a way to make that make sense and be a bit more balanced that would've been ideal.
If Protoss air is now Pheonix and Carrier only... that's pretty sweet anyway isn't it?
|
as a toss my self, i havent used voidrays since they were range 7.
their too expensive, too easily shut down and too fragile.
that is unless you have a fleet of 4-5 going into silly numbers like 15+ of them, voidrays havent really had a decent role for a while now, i prefer to use carriers and have done since beta, people overlookn the fact carriers provide you with a free PDD like effect in unmicro'd battles
|
On October 15 2010 06:50 tehemperorer wrote:
Bad change, VR was already trash. Too flimsy and so expensive, the only thing that made it viable was the fact that if charged it could do a ton of damage... Now stimmed marines, queens, missle turrets, and cannons have an easier time against it. Pathetic really, there is absolutely no reason to get this unit in 1v1 at all, in any matchup.
Don't talk about mixing VRs in with Colossus, that is so unviable at higher levels of play. You're going to spend extra on a stargate, and then get 1-4 EXPENSIVE units that the opponent, because they know you are going colossus, has already built a counter for? Be realistic, VRs are not to be seen in any matchup.
In the HDH NoNy vent phoenix/colossus in every game against IdrA, and I believe similar builds saw use in the GSL. If the Voidray is viable vs Armored, I don't forsee the additional 100/50 being a concern. At the end of day, we'll have to wait and see.
|
On October 15 2010 06:49 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:On October 15 2010 06:14 DeckOneBell wrote:
I don't think 8+8 will be so bad, they'll probably still beat stalkers for cost, except they won't absolutely destroy stalkers any more. Honestly, probably nerfs them hardest in PvP, because of stalkers. Otherwise, looks like they're more combat-worthy units as opposed to purely building harass.
Turning them into more of a core army unit, I think, is good. Explain to me how having voidrays mixed into your army is better now than it was before. The DPS boost vs armored when uncharged is actually very useful, and I do believe will add to the viability of the voidray as a core army unit. Part of the failure of the phoenix is how weak it is vs armored units, and how the delay of charge for voidrays made beating mass vikings/corruptors almost impossible. Now, the voidray will be able to deal with those pesky armored units protoss hates. Think of the potential difference a voidray can now make in an engagement versus a zerg, where your voidrays engage the advancing roaches (now doing increased dmg vs armored to protect your zealot advance)- as the hydra army advances, your colossi clean up. 3 voidrays in a formerly pure ground army can (hypothetically) turn the tide. Not to mention I envision a high templar/voidray/zealot combo being very deadly against a terran bio ball, since you can now deal with the marauders. EDIT; I also don't believe this will take away from the enjoyment aspect of voidray micro, and I anticipate seeing top level players trying to keep the charge from starting so that they have that bonus vs armored in early game.
You don't get void rays for roaches and now there is even less reason. And if you have zealots versus roaches... well I don't know what to say. Sentry/Stalker/Collo is still superior due to the fact that FF blocks roaches from damaging (even with 4 range) while stalker/collo hit them. Once the roaches are down you kill the hydras. If he goes more roach you can get some immortals, if he goes corrupter more stalkers and maybe blink. I'd say get templar but obv feedback doesnt work on them anymore.
If you can find enough gas to go void ray colossus please explain to me how. It seems getting that comp means you are already winning tbh. I've also heard its phoenix colo that you really want if tis possible to get and assume it will be that until charge juggling can be mastered (but with the VR nerfs I doubt it).
Templar Zealot VoidRay same thing, where do you get the gas? Getting void rays if he goes to marauder heavy is very good and works, but its almost exclusively at the cost of forgoing templar for a bit (but its worth it to snipe marauder or medivacs and force vikings).
|
It seems like Blizzard doesn't know what to do with the VR and with these changes, VR has just become a huge contradiction. A unit that is meant to be artillery vs. armored units is now better vs. non-armored units, which they will kill without actually being able to charge up to serve their intended purpose vs. armored units. When they do become charged up, the bonus damage has been nerfed such that its kind of trivial. All this for a unit that will fall to 1 queen or 4 marines is a tough sell.
Maybe playing with the charge time / charge retaining time or possibly making use of a 3rd charge level will make VRs more viable, but in the meantime I doubt we'll see very many players build it at 250/150.
Besides the Phoenix there are no viable options for Protoss air. If anyone ever wondered why toss players always predictably go for robo you now have your answer.
|
On October 15 2010 06:38 DragonDefonce wrote:
... I mean it can't even beat a queen 1 on 1 anymore. What kind of joke is that?
How is that a joke? Toss can 1-base wall (preventing scouting) and rush voids pretty damn quickly. Zerg has no tier 1 AA other than Queens and spore crawlers, and both just give voids two more things to charge on.
As for those people saying that it is now useless against BCs, Ultras, etc. are you even considering the fact that it does DOUBLE damage to those units while charging to it's second level?
|
On October 15 2010 06:57 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 06:50 tehemperorer wrote:
Bad change, VR was already trash. Too flimsy and so expensive, the only thing that made it viable was the fact that if charged it could do a ton of damage... Now stimmed marines, queens, missle turrets, and cannons have an easier time against it. Pathetic really, there is absolutely no reason to get this unit in 1v1 at all, in any matchup.
Don't talk about mixing VRs in with Colossus, that is so unviable at higher levels of play. You're going to spend extra on a stargate, and then get 1-4 EXPENSIVE units that the opponent, because they know you are going colossus, has already built a counter for? Be realistic, VRs are not to be seen in any matchup. In the HDH NoNy vent phoenix/colossus in every game against IdrA, and I believe similar builds saw use in the GSL. If the Voidray is viable vs Armored, I don't forsee the additional 100/50 being a concern. At the end of day, we'll have to wait and see.
Phoenix are not only faster but light. They can harass workers and tank viking damage which is their point in the battle along with possible lift off. Unless the Terran can micro and FF the colo the shots go to the phoenix first. Phoenix also are good at stopping drops and shooting down fleeing medivacs. I can't speak for NoNy but I am pretty sure he would say something similar to this. I'd really like to see/hear what NoNy thinks about this with replays. I try to use phoenix but I suck too much to really put them to use like he does.
In PvZ phoenix are better because they deal with mutas, queens, workers, overlords, and even low numbers of hydras. Sure Void Rays can do these things but phoenix do them cheaper and faster due to extreme speed and can also handle mutalisks, which Void Rays cant. Phoenix actually deal with queen better as well due to the fact they can lift off other queens so no xfuse. Once 4 queens are out void rays go home.
|
Honestly they should just make VR 10 (+15 massive). They are fixed as a seige/base-trade weapon and still retain some usefulness versus BC/Carrier
|
Void rays were dumb so i can understand why they nerfed them. What bothers me more is that some units like banshees and marauders are just as game changing for P as VRs were for T but they are left alone =/
EDIT: looks like they increases nexus life and reduced medivac speed so i guess blizzard is going in the right direction for PvT and are just taking baby steps
|
I think the void ray change is great. They had their lvl 1 dmg really buffed so they arent ridiculously bad and easily out maneuvered anymore. How do you beat slow void rays? you engage when they are uncharged thats how or just run away. Now voids wont be so worthless uncharged and won't be stupid imba when charged.
|
u guys clearly have no idea how to use voids rays.... this is how u do it, u make a small group of 3-6 voids, and when there is a major battle, send yur voids to their base to completely annihilate it. against zerg, u can have voids charge up on ultras or broodlords and they will become cost effective.
|
On October 15 2010 07:11 itsthewoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 06:38 DragonDefonce wrote:
... I mean it can't even beat a queen 1 on 1 anymore. What kind of joke is that? How is that a joke? Toss can 1-base wall (preventing scouting) and rush voids pretty damn quickly. Zerg has no tier 1 AA other than Queens and spore crawlers, and both just give voids two more things to charge on. As for those people saying that it is now useless against BCs, Ultras, etc. are you even considering the fact that it does DOUBLE damage to those units while charging to it's second level?
If you see a 1 base toss and you poke his front its pretty obvious when you dont see any gas heavy units. You could also, you know, keep an overlord or sac an overlord to scout. Even if he proxied the SG you could see no gas was spent in the base with 2 gas up and invest in another queen.
Queens has +1 range over VR. Same for Spores. Xfuse > VR.
|
I'm a zerg, and I kind of feel like the game is being squeezed down narrower paths. I really didn't have too much problem with void rays on all but a few maps -- blistering sands, scrap station, less so delta quadrant -- where destructible rocks were too close the base. So there's no vote for me
|
I want a high ranking protoss user to try mixing in voidrays into the main army. Shit does not compute. I'm not using voidrays. While they might be ok units, they do not do enough to justify the cost.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
