On September 26 2010 10:30 Alzadar wrote: Since you're already getting the Fleet Beacon, how effective do you think it would be to throw a Carrier or two into the mix? Their enormous burst damage would be great for sniping Colossi.
In the right situation they would be viable, I think. But midgame, or even rushing to them, I don't think so. Firstly guardian shield would become an essential component of your opponents army since that would take a good percentage of the carrier damage out (20% i think). Next, in contrast to the mothership, the carrier doesn't have any additional benefits for the rest of your army and works out to cost 400+ minerals once you've built all the interceptors. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not going to have a great impact on the battle once it comes out, in contrast to a mothership. However, in a lategame situation I guess they would be amazing ! Although with the current state of pvp i would doubt you'd ever be able to get the kind of economy to support them.
Carriers are pretty amazing units, the main drawback is the speed, but since you're getting a mothership thats not much of an issue. I think adding one would definitely be worth it, especially if your build is light on stalkers since those are the main reason to get guardian shield. Also if its only a few sentries you could snipe them.
Also if you get up to +3 air weapons, they'd be straight up demonic. (even if they have 3 armor they probably dont have 3 shields)
On September 30 2010 01:50 kcdc wrote: Plexa, can you do a mini-guide on your phoenix-immortal opening? I've been trying out phoenix openings with limited success, and I feel like I must be missing something obvious in the strategy.
Also, in response to people suggesting adding collosi into the mix in the late game, I'd suggest using carriers instead. Their big weakness in PvP is that you can't really get to them, but in this case, you'll already have the tech up. They also completely punish investing most of your gas in robo units that can't shoot up.
I'm a complete nubcake using phoenix/immortal although I lose to it all the time. It's not really viable atm since Phoenix's bug out =[ when they patch it I'd be happy to write something up.
On September 28 2010 00:33 Floophead_III wrote: Man you gotta do an "Is it viable?" on Neural Parasite, in anything. =P
It is... it's ridiculously underused lol people are just too caught up in the nerfs it got to realise its still really really good. And the players that do use it are typically bad and behind in the game anyway, and then blame the loss on going NP...
On September 26 2010 15:12 iEchoic wrote: Sweet thread, the pheonix + mothership revelation is really the key point. However, I don't see how this is presented as an alternative to colossus. Once the game goes a bit later and the 'rushing mothership' idea is done, wouldn't you still be best off massing colossus under your mothership?
Well, it just so happens that a while minutes ago I was about to enter a Colossus massing war. Rather than enter into that nonsense, I put down a stargate/beacon instead of 2nd robotics and pumped out a mothership while still massing Colossus. Of course, I made a few phoenix just to snipe his observers. And well, Mothership/Colossus rapes so hard it's not funny. I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
As to adding carriers, at the moment anyone who encouters the mothership dies - generally speaking. I could mass whatever I wanted and still win because you can't hit what you can't see. So yea, in that respect Carriers are certainly 'viable' after mothership. Additionally, the mothership is too good defensively - if he attacked you, you vortex half his stuff and kill the rest - instant GG, so making a carrier after mothership would work in that respect as well.
On October 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
Ok, after trying mothership + phoenix on 2 base after getting colossus, I have to agree that this is the new PvP midgame of choice. If controlled correctly it's ridiculously powerful, and even if you suck at control you're at least no worse off than if you had dropped a second robo and pumped double colossus. Doesn't really help the tedium of 4gate 9/10 games but in the rare case that you manage to bring a PvP into midgame this is amazing and so fun.
I'm saying this after a win and a loss doing this btw, the loss to me a moving and not telling my phoenixes to kill the observer, overwhelmed with how awesome motherships are.
who cares if it is only a one match up method? in my mind, that's how all things should be(strong in one or two places and week to all others. that is how an rts should be done. PvP isn't solved yet and i hope to see the counter to this posted soon because I'm starting to be beet by it in bronze.
On October 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
Ok, after trying mothership + phoenix on 2 base after getting colossus, I have to agree that this is the new PvP midgame of choice. If controlled correctly it's ridiculously powerful, and even if you suck at control you're at least no worse off than if you had dropped a second robo and pumped double colossus. Doesn't really help the tedium of 4gate 9/10 games but in the rare case that you manage to bring a PvP into midgame this is amazing and so fun.
I'm saying this after a win and a loss doing this btw, the loss to me a moving and not telling my phoenixes to kill the observer, overwhelmed with how awesome motherships are.
I've already started theorycrafting Mothership vs Mothership PvP LOL
On October 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
Ok, after trying mothership + phoenix on 2 base after getting colossus, I have to agree that this is the new PvP midgame of choice. If controlled correctly it's ridiculously powerful, and even if you suck at control you're at least no worse off than if you had dropped a second robo and pumped double colossus. Doesn't really help the tedium of 4gate 9/10 games but in the rare case that you manage to bring a PvP into midgame this is amazing and so fun.
I'm saying this after a win and a loss doing this btw, the loss to me a moving and not telling my phoenixes to kill the observer, overwhelmed with how awesome motherships are.
I've already started theorycrafting Mothership vs Mothership PvP LOL
On October 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
Ok, after trying mothership + phoenix on 2 base after getting colossus, I have to agree that this is the new PvP midgame of choice. If controlled correctly it's ridiculously powerful, and even if you suck at control you're at least no worse off than if you had dropped a second robo and pumped double colossus. Doesn't really help the tedium of 4gate 9/10 games but in the rare case that you manage to bring a PvP into midgame this is amazing and so fun.
I'm saying this after a win and a loss doing this btw, the loss to me a moving and not telling my phoenixes to kill the observer, overwhelmed with how awesome motherships are.
I've already started theorycrafting Mothership vs Mothership PvP LOL
The main problem lately I'm having is that I'm too eager to get the mothership out. it seems like the mothership only works if they have already teched to Collosi, because if they see air units or the fleet beacon, they just start massing Stalkers or Void Rays...
Would you say that this is a reactive strat only, or do you have a method of stopping mass AA?
Motherships along with your own AoE units are rediculously awesome. You can pull a large amount (or all if they run into instead of fighting with a reduced army) of their army into a vortex, and position your collosus so they can all immediatly fire when the vortex breaks.
All the defenders units will be stacked in a very small stack and will immediatly spread, but not before your collosi get off there first shot which should hit EVERY single unit he had in the vortex. So if you have the critical mass nessicary, like 5-6 or whatever it is, can you one shot all of his zealots and stalkers?
This shows banelings entering a vortex to do AoE damage, but could collosi or even templar get some damage on more units than would be otherwise possible?
damnit why arent there mor players like u plexa??? instead of trying to get desprete points on the ladder, we should all be trying out new ways to play this game. thanks for hte post! really good read.
On October 02 2010 23:16 Mr.Minionman wrote: The main problem lately I'm having is that I'm too eager to get the mothership out. it seems like the mothership only works if they have already teched to Collosi, because if they see air units or the fleet beacon, they just start massing Stalkers or Void Rays...
Would you say that this is a reactive strat only, or do you have a method of stopping mass AA?
If you're rushing Mothership off of one base then you're probably going to die because you dont have any units etc. The mothership tech + mothership, like I said in the post, costs about the same as colossus + range + tech, so you do need to rely on him making that investment since mothership leaves you with a gaping timing window. It's a lot safer to tech mothership in the mid game.
If you want to rush them I would suggest the following; clearing your base of obs, making sure you have ample units before teching there (i.e. if you have a fleet of phoenix then he's not going to VR tech), and you're going to have to adapt to whatever he's doing.
On October 03 2010 00:19 xiyuema wrote: damnit why arent there mor players like u plexa??? instead of trying to get desprete points on the ladder, we should all be trying out new ways to play this game. thanks for hte post! really good read.
Lots of players just copy what others are doing without really thinking. I'm guilty of it myself a lot of the time, and that's because you just wanna practice your mechanics and get better (in my case, anyway). I've got a few ideas left for this is it viable series yet! It's just a matter of theorycraft + putting theorycraft to use, and a lot of the time it's accident as well. Like in this case, I wouldn't have thought motherships were half as viable if it weren't for realising phoenix snipe obs amazingly well.
On October 03 2010 04:25 Plexa wrote: If you're rushing Mothership off of one base then you're probably going to die because you dont have any units etc. The mothership tech + mothership, like I said in the post, costs about the same as colossus + range + tech, so you do need to rely on him making that investment since mothership leaves you with a gaping timing window. It's a lot safer to tech mothership in the mid game.
was the same cost part in gas,minerals,time,space,and supply?
On October 03 2010 04:25 Plexa wrote: If you're rushing Mothership off of one base then you're probably going to die because you dont have any units etc. The mothership tech + mothership, like I said in the post, costs about the same as colossus + range + tech, so you do need to rely on him making that investment since mothership leaves you with a gaping timing window. It's a lot safer to tech mothership in the mid game.
was the same cost part in gas,minerals,time,space,and supply?
Mothership (400/400) + Fleet Beacon (300/200) + Stargate (150/150) = 850/700 vs Colossus (300/200) + Robotics Bay (200/200) + Range (200/200) + Robotics Facility (200/100) = 900/700
Timing wise pretty sure the Colossus comes out faster since a Mothership takes 160 time to build, while Colossus takes 75
EPT
although I lose to it all the time. It's not really viable atm since Phoenix's bug out =[ when they patch it I'd be happy to write something up.
It's just a matter of theorycraft + putting theorycraft to use, and a lot of the time it's accident as well. Like in this case, I wouldn't have thought motherships were half as viable if it weren't for realising phoenix snipe obs amazingly well.
