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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 05 2010 16:39 AzureD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 15:35 Roaming wrote:On October 05 2010 14:33 AzureD wrote:On October 04 2010 12:18 Plexa wrote:On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote:
I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo. 1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me How well do you understand PvP?? On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote:
What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death. Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying. Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map. Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers. I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement. You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible. Well the way I see it is that you are doing the Protoss version of the tank push. Probably works much better on smaller maps if you can get away with it. Have you watched any of the replays provided in this thread? And yeah, you probably are the only person to use a double immortal drop with 3 zealot warp in in PvP.
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On October 05 2010 17:04 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 16:39 AzureD wrote:On October 05 2010 15:35 Roaming wrote:On October 05 2010 14:33 AzureD wrote:On October 04 2010 12:18 Plexa wrote:On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote:
I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo. 1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me How well do you understand PvP?? On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote:
What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death. Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying. Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map. Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers. I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement. You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible. Well the way I see it is that you are doing the Protoss version of the tank push. Probably works much better on smaller maps if you can get away with it. Have you watched any of the replays provided in this thread? And yeah, you probably are the only person to use a double immortal drop with 3 zealot warp in in PvP.
Yeah you forgot to put 3 probes on gas in that Blistering Sands game for the longest time. I still think something mobile like Blink Stalkers would be a real problem for this type of play. But yeah if they don't pressure you too much I can see it working.
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^they are. But that's why you wait till the start teching to collosi first.
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I'd also like to point out how blink stalkers are the only way to deal with it (if you do it correctly). Nothing else in the protoss army doing colussi has even a shot.
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One day plexa is going to post a replay where someone scouts his mothership and gets their own mothership and the most epic PvP game will be played.
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@Plexa do you think this is viable versus zerg?
It seems like a viable if not strong transition if you open with nony style phoenix harass off 1 stargate. The observer sniping thing works except it will just take a few more (albeit crucial) seconds for the overseer to die, and the mothership basically makes your gateway units invincible. The only problem I can think of is against a big roach hyrdra ball where keeping your mothership out of hydra range puts your zealots out of the cloak range. Against zerg you don't even have to go robo and instead just go a pure zealot templar mix for huge DPS with phoenix and the mommyship keeping them cloaked
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I'm stoked to try this out. I have been really disappointed by the validity of cloak plays in SC2. Banshees are alright, burrow is rather lackluster, and dark templar are the riskiest investment you can make as protoss (apparently more than mothership XD).
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United States15536 Posts
Just did this and it was BEAUTIFUL. Admittedly, I'm not very good at ALL, but after seeing the Colossi start coming, I teched straight to Mothership. Almost didn't finish it either (and lost an expansion to boot), but it popped and the enemy's push turned RIGHT around. Hell, by the end of the encounter, the Mothership was gone along with my economy, but victory was MINE. Thanks Plexa... this was AWESOME.
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Plexa, I wanted to thank you a lot, I was really getting absolutly sick of PvP becoming automatically war of the world. I tried it yesterday, and even tho im only 1000-1100 diamond, it was pure ownage and even tho you might say mass stalker will destroy till build, i still see a lot of versility possible at this late in game, but that is just me.
Narf
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 07 2010 05:15 Narph wrote:
Plexa, I wanted to thank you a lot, I was really getting absolutly sick of PvP becoming automatically war of the world. I tried it yesterday, and even tho im only 1000-1100 diamond, it was pure ownage and even tho you might say mass stalker will destroy till build, i still see a lot of versility possible at this late in game, but that is just me.
Narf On October 06 2010 13:57 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Just did this and it was BEAUTIFUL. Admittedly, I'm not very good at ALL, but after seeing the Colossi start coming, I teched straight to Mothership. Almost didn't finish it either (and lost an expansion to boot), but it popped and the enemy's push turned RIGHT around. Hell, by the end of the encounter, the Mothership was gone along with my economy, but victory was MINE. Thanks Plexa... this was AWESOME. Glad to hear it's working 
On October 06 2010 02:06 t3tsubo wrote:
@Plexa do you think this is viable versus zerg?
It seems like a viable if not strong transition if you open with nony style phoenix harass off 1 stargate. The observer sniping thing works except it will just take a few more (albeit crucial) seconds for the overseer to die, and the mothership basically makes your gateway units invincible. The only problem I can think of is against a big roach hyrdra ball where keeping your mothership out of hydra range puts your zealots out of the cloak range. Against zerg you don't even have to go robo and instead just go a pure zealot templar mix for huge DPS with phoenix and the mommyship keeping them cloaked I'm not a fan of Phoenix openings in PvZ, but of course mass blink stalker is a valid strategy. In that case of course it's viable! Tester often does mass blink stalker into stalker/DT (with stalkers sniping overseers). However, if they bring enough overseers sniping isn't as effective as you would like it to be - thus a mothership would be a much better investment (since vortext can minimise hydra DPS while you kill the many overseers - or conversely, vortex their overseers!!)
On October 05 2010 19:11 AzureD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 17:04 Plexa wrote:On October 05 2010 16:39 AzureD wrote:On October 05 2010 15:35 Roaming wrote:On October 05 2010 14:33 AzureD wrote:On October 04 2010 12:18 Plexa wrote:On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote:
I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo. 1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me How well do you understand PvP?? On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote:
What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death. Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying. Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map. Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers. I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement. You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible. Well the way I see it is that you are doing the Protoss version of the tank push. Probably works much better on smaller maps if you can get away with it. Have you watched any of the replays provided in this thread? And yeah, you probably are the only person to use a double immortal drop with 3 zealot warp in in PvP. Yeah you forgot to put 3 probes on gas in that Blistering Sands game for the longest time. I still think something mobile like Blink Stalkers would be a real problem for this type of play. But yeah if they don't pressure you too much I can see it working. If you're rushing to mothership I agree. If you mix in Mothership into your standard PvP midgame then Blink Stalkers are necessary to fight it - but not sufficient imo. The Colossus under the mothership will deal way too much damage to them for them to win the fight over all (although the mothership will probably die). Stalker/Phoenix or something might be the best counter to this style of player - not sure!!
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I haven't actually used motherships at all in 1v1. But everytime I play in team games I always buy a mothership, they are priceless additions to your allies' MMM, hydra or stalker balls. My use of the mothership has made me very popular in team games :D.
For some extra lulz, try using a mothership when your terran ally is going tanks. Vortex the enemy army and you don't even see them pop out, all you see is the smoking ruins of their charred bodies and all you hear is the sound of a single devastating tank salvo :D :D :D
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On October 07 2010 17:25 Selendis wrote:
I haven't actually used motherships at all in 1v1. But everytime I play in team games I always buy a mothership, they are priceless additions to your allies' MMM, hydra or stalker balls. My use of the mothership has made me very popular in team games :D.
For some extra lulz, try using a mothership when your terran ally is going tanks. Vortex the enemy army and you don't even see them pop out, all you see is the smoking ruins of their charred bodies and all you hear is the sound of a single devastating tank salvo :D :D :D
Taking into consideration that 2on2´s mostly get you hard cheese, (TZ with reaper speedlings ie) you will possibly not very often be able to build a MS. But if you got a PP combo which both Turtle it might get interesting i guess. Dual Mass Voids with MS?!
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On October 07 2010 17:25 Selendis wrote:
I haven't actually used motherships at all in 1v1. But everytime I play in team games I always buy a mothership, they are priceless additions to your allies' MMM, hydra or stalker balls. My use of the mothership has made me very popular in team games :D.
For some extra lulz, try using a mothership when your terran ally is going tanks. Vortex the enemy army and you don't even see them pop out, all you see is the smoking ruins of their charred bodies and all you hear is the sound of a single devastating tank salvo :D :D :D
Putting like 10 banelings on the vortex works too.
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aoe and vortex is one of vortex's invaluable uses. 10 siege tanks and a mothership can kill 2 entire armies in the blink of an eye.
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I see all these great battles with motherships in your army, but i am still hesitant to use them in something as seious as 1v1 laddering. I feel at my level of play (900 points diamond), there are still too many 2/4/k4 gates going around in PvPs.
Sure i would be willing to do this in 2v2, but 1v1 it seems just too risky for me.
Very well written though, GL on making this the standard-but-not-really-standard build for PvP.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 08 2010 01:47 57 Corvette wrote:
I see all these great battles with motherships in your army, but i am still hesitant to use them in something as seious as 1v1 laddering. I feel at my level of play (900 points diamond), there are still too many 2/4/k4 gates going around in PvPs.
Sure i would be willing to do this in 2v2, but 1v1 it seems just too risky for me.
Very well written though, GL on making this the standard-but-not-really-standard build for PvP.
Mix it into your midgame then, if you manage to get it out it's almost instant win  (it would be at 900 pt level)
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I love you for this thread, like seriously. Every time I've got past the usual 2gate/4gate/cannon rush nonsense today and it's descended into war of the worlds I've managed to squeeze in a mothership (normally by cutting stalkers/sentries for zealots and a colossus). It's won me most of them.
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On October 10 2010 15:51 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 01:47 57 Corvette wrote:
I see all these great battles with motherships in your army, but i am still hesitant to use them in something as seious as 1v1 laddering. I feel at my level of play (900 points diamond), there are still too many 2/4/k4 gates going around in PvPs.
Sure i would be willing to do this in 2v2, but 1v1 it seems just too risky for me.
Very well written though, GL on making this the standard-but-not-really-standard build for PvP. Mix it into your midgame then, if you manage to get it out it's almost instant win (it would be at 900 pt level)
not quite, if u get out a mothership, it first has to reach your army/defending base or you have just waisted alot of cry for a slow air unit that gives u sight.
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I hope I'm not way off and the other replays you fined tuned it, typed this out in between studying etc. so I'll get to the others eventually ^_^.
BULLET POINTS.
Mothership forces lower unit count, upgrades become more important.
Pointless to get melee with a Mothership so working in voidrays while keeping 4-6 phoenix's would be much better then getting a few zealots.
Sentrys are practically useless when you have a Mothership so getting more observers for vision and using Phoenix's to deny enemy observers would help the motherships lack of mobility.
In my opinion you need to be on 3 bases before getting a mothership otherwise there's a big window where you just have less then your opponent.
Vulnerable to Blink Stalkers+HT (feedback and storm where his units most likely are)
Conclusion, it might be viable but only late in the game and would have to be used very well to be effective.
Just watched the Bamboo game, I'll be slowly watching the rest, but one thing I noticed in that game is right when he saw you kill his proxy pylon at the Xel'Naga and then saw you at his Gold Expo he could've immediately sent a few zealots to your expo and killed a whole lot of probes/forced loss of mining while you warped in zealots or stalkers to defend, either the fact the mothership is so slow can easily be exploited with little pokes.
As well as right after the first big fight where you mothership goes down he could've just pushed in and taken down your expo at the very least.
The issue I see with the mothership (LOVE the idea, been trying to find a stable PvP strat that doesn't revolve around Colossi myeslf) is that it's very slow and unless you're on 3 bases you'll have a substantially smaller army and become very vulnerable to small counter attacks.
At the time you two fought (he should have had a 4th gateway, his macro was a bit off) you had 14 zealots, 8 stalkers, 7 phoenix, 2 sentrys, and the mothership. He had 6 zealots, 2 immortals, 4 colossi, 18 stalkers, and 3 sentrys.
When you two engaged he sat there while most of his units were sitting in a choke trying to kill the few zealots that weren't cloaked. If he would've pulled back and waited till he could get in range of your mothership (if that things out of place for one second being so slow it can be focused down). Pretty much what I'm saying is if he would've fought that better he would've lost far fewer stalkers while being able to focus down your mothership and win with his numbers. Besides all that as soon as he took down your mothership if he ran all his units into the vortex (which btw would have denied you any time to harass his base due to its position) he would have come out even more ahead then he did since he lost a lot of stalkers due to the rest of his army being in the vortex.
As you said sniping that one colossi was a big mistake, you lost 6 phoenix's which is definitely not a fair trade for one colossi. I've had those moments too, after you're always sitting there going "WHYYYY!!!!!!!??!?!?!" and laughing later at the replay ^_^.
Once your second mothership comes out and you two fight again his colossi are in terrible position, add to that he didn't research blink which would've made sniping the mothership (or the long process of taking out 350/350 lol) much easier. Since that's where a lot of the extra units you could've had went, that's not too bad for him to just take the hits while focusing the mothership.
Another issue I see with Mothership is if he gets HT which he did and Feedbacks a 200/200 Energy Mothership, that'd leaving only 150/350 for his stalkers to chew through, add to that a storm and it'll go down pretty quickly (plus the storm will dmg your units near it).
If you are going to go mothership I think a very key part of it needs to be upgrades for your ground troops, since you'll have far fewer then your opponent they need to be more potent. Which shouldn't be an issue since it seems you have an excess of gas after you get your second base with 2/2 gases going. Maybe cutting sentrys (since they're pretty useless for your composition) and getting an Observer every time you're low on minerals but have excess gas, you can keep vision of most of the map by slowly putting observers everywhere and using your Phoenix's to deny any observer scouting by him. With all that map vision it'd help you greatly since it takes so long to reposition your mothership.
Or if you want to more aggressive cut Phoenix's once your mothership is out and start producing Voidrays (or time it so the first one comes out same time etc.) and just cut Zealots to accommodate the extra 100mineral cost (gas isn't an issue since you're already in excess with the composition). But it would be important to keep at least 4-6 Phoenix's with your army at all times so you can snipe the observers fast enough and account for any losses of Phoenix's.
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Someone actually did this to me in a PvP the other day. We were neck to neck in supply and he vortex's my collosi and some units, proceeds to kill my remaining army and waits for the vortex to finish to clean up. Although you made it even more awesome with adding phoenix to snipe obs and fight the collosi. I've still got to say that getting the vortex placement right early in the battle can just turn everything around in your favour.
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EPT
