There is a fair number of "Will it X" type shows around these days, but really nothing for SC2 at the moment. We all know that the game is young and that anything could be viable (as seen by AugustWerra's BC rush against Iron) so the question naturally arises - what strategies work, and what strategies do not work.
The idea is simple, pick a counter intuitive strategy, get 5 games of it in action and determine whether or not the build, strategy, unit composition - whatever - is viable in a competitive setting.
My credentials? I'm a Protoss player. I've watched over 600 replays since the start of retail (no joke). I'm #41 on the SEA server (although I've been laddering on euro recently). I regularly play practice games against Jimdiddy (Zerg on SEA, #30 at the moment but was top 10 last week), Camlito (Zerg on SEA, #43), Youngminii (#52 on SEA, Protoss, has been top 30), Pachi (terrible Zerg on SEA adorable staff member though), Saracen (Zerg on NA, top 100) infinity21 (top 100 Terran on NA) and Corinthos (another good Terran on NA). Occasionally I get games with better players like Naruto (who is awesome) and I bounce ideas off of Nazgul and Jinro occasionally.
Is it viable? - Motherships in PvP
The Mothership, as we all know, is one of the most useless units in the game. It lacks any game breaking ability, it is really expensive, hard to tech to and takes forever to build. Indeed, the ONLY good thing about this unit is its ability to cloak a lot of stuff - and even then against Terran and Zerg this is largely nullified by either Infestor use, Scan, Ravens, Overseers, Ghosts etc. There is no reason why anyone would legitimately want to build this unit other than the coolness factor.
I was searching for an interview where Dustin made some remarks about taking community maps and updating them to meet blizzard standards (lol) and during my hunt, I misread an answer to one of his questions, namely:
Guest-82: Hello, do you plan any new changes with the mothership? Alot of people feel that its price is not worth it. Also, how about the ultralisk? I think the ultralisk should be able to at least walk over the zerglings. Thoughts? DustinB:: We are not going to any changes on the Mothership in the near future. Internal debate rages about this unit, I have been told by several people both inside and outside of blizzard that the unit is far too powerful. I have heard complaints both ways on this unit, that he is way too powerful (mostly against Protoss) and way too weak (mostly against Terrans).
When it actually read something like people think Ultralisks are are too powerful against Protoss and way too weak against Terrans, not the Mothership.
Nevertheless, the interview got me thinking. If Dustin thinks Motherships are broken in PvP (which he didn't really...) then why don't we see it more often? I then recalled a game where White-Ra went Mothership against some Korean, and won and thought to myself - well, perhaps, just maybe, the Mothership is viable PvP.
The logic was simple. Making one Mothership, including the tech costs, is approximately the same as making 2 Colossus and researching Thermal Lance. So instead of building Colossus I would make a Mothership. Assuming the other guy was still one base, and waiting for Lances to finish, my Mothership should be out in time and then either - I get crushed horribly because the Mothership is bad (expected outcome) - Colossus are rendered useless, he has too many Zealots, Mothership makes my army amazing - He has obs and he rapes me silly - He has lots of stalkers and lols at my Mothership
The possibilities were numerous! So when I got bored ranking up my brand new account on NA (thanks to SEA finally getting access - 23-3 btw) and the opportunity presented itself for me to transition into a midgame Mothership, I took it.
So after an uneventful earlygame, Barsark took a hidden expansion at 6 on Lost Temple (I was at 12, he was at 3). Not knowing that this expansion existed, and seeing him mass in his main with my observer, I decided to take the plunge and go for a Mothership. Eventually I scouted his hidden base where he had built two robotics and was massing Colossus - this would be a true test of whether the Mothership was any good or not.
The first engagement resulted in a modest victory for me - but it allowed me to clear out his main forcing him to relocate entirely to 6. The Mothership had passed its first test. The second major engagement was another modest victory for the Mothership, although if I recall correctly I lost my first (of four) Motherships. The game progressed, and I was surviving and actually winning battles.
Well, that's one way to deal with Colossus
I wasn't able to kill Colossus as I had hoped, the Mothership was too slow for that so I couldn't effectively chase him. Thus, I took a leaf out of Tyler's book and added Phoenix - and then something magical happened. The Phoenix amplified my victories tenfold. I couldn't explain it at the time, but I figured it out later - and I'll tell you about why in a moment! Anyway, the Phoenix killed off the Colossus and from there the game was all down hill for Barsark.
So what did I learn this game? Well, Motherships *might* be viable in this matchup. Not to brag, but I was clearly the better player here, and he was hungover. So really, this test was wildly inclusive outside of a few battle demonstrations. But, it wasn't an outright rejection like I had expected.
However, there was something special about my army when Phoenix were added - after thinking about it for a while, it dawned on me.
A key unit in fighting the Mothership
The observer is obviously something that you must have to fight the Mothership - fighting without it would be suicide for obvious reasons. Notice how the observer is a "Light-Mechanical" unit? i.e. Phoenix deal 20 damage to them instead of the usual 10?!
The moment you engage in battle, the Phoenix doesn't have any natural targets - except Colossus. Now Colossus tend to be at the back, while the Observer tends to be at the front so the units can fight the Mothership. So, if I have observers around to detect, the Phoenix naturally automatically targets the observer, kills it almost instantly thanks to it dealing full damage to it, and allows my fully cloaked army to destroy. Oh, and then my Phoenix can destroy the Colossus as well - since they're flying and invisible.
It's brilliant really.
People theory crafted that Phoenix+DT+observer snipe would be a good strategy. Unfortunately, DT tech is really expensive (more than a fleet beacon, which is the only additional structure you would need if you were building Phoenix already) and DTs die really quick. Phoenix+DT may not work, but Phoenix+Mothership uses the same principles, is more accessible, and actually works O_O AND you get bonus points for using a Mothership in the most boring matchup in Starcraft 2.
On many bus rides home from University, I sat pondering how I could make this combination work. My thoughts were this - if you are able to get into the midgame after going for the standard immo/phoenix strategy then once you have an expansion up add a fleet beacon and build a Mothership. This make a lot of sense really, since Phoenix start to become less effective after about 6-8 in my opinion, so if you sacrifice building 2 phoenix for the beacon, add the mothership, then you have a pretty damn scary army thats about x10 stronger than what it would have been if you had added those Phoenix.
It sounded like it might just work. Obviously there would be some massive timing windows where I would be vulnerable, but given how passive PvP can be in the midgame (since no one wants to attack into an army with more Colossus) and given that I kill off any observers so he doesn't see it coming (and doesn't know the timing window is there) - it might just work.
Mantra played well, he managed to trick me into thinking he was warpgate pushing me while in fact he took an early expansion. Behind economically, there wasn't much I could do since I skipped Colossus tech. What else could I do but go Mothership and see what happened?
Miraculously, I was able to defend his first push with some decent forcefields. Then, moments before my Mothership popped, he attacks again and I micro poorly. I lose all my units THEN the Mothership comes into action. To top it all off, his Charge-lots are able to get to my Probes before my Mothership can cloak them - meaning I lose all my probes.
Move faster dammit!
Close, but no cigar.
I did learn a few things about the Mothership in this game, from a control perspective. The Mothership has painfully slow acceleration - I could have saved a lot of my probes by making it move a significant distance, since for some reason it doesn't like to move fast when moving short distances - hence why it was inching towards my probes in the screenshot above. Further, if I had fully Chronoboosted the Mothership (I assume I missed a boost somewhere) I probably would have had it out in time, and maybe I would have defended just fine.
Since I was behind economically and playing catchup, I don't think this game conclusively says that the Mothership isn't viable - a few seconds either way on that last attack could have made all the difference. I was not prepared to give up on the Mothership just yet.
Game 3 - vs Bamboo ~1350, but plays a lot better than that
Not sure if this was nrg.bamboo (i.e. a good player), I wasn't prepared to screw around - I was here to win, I had no intention of playing Motherships this game. When I entered the midgame and was able to get an expansion up, however, I knew that this was the Mothership's way of telling me that this would be a real test of it's capabilities.
The Mothership arrived, and I feel that I came from a disadvantageous position into a position with a real fighting chance to win the game. The first major test was a battle outside of the gold expansion at 12 on Blistering Sands - where he had just had his Nexus finish warping in. Just as I had planned, the Phoenix sniped his observer instantly - and the battle gained me significant ground.
That obs went down very fast
But then I wasted my Phoenix chasing after an injured Colossus which set me right back to "disadvatnage". Nevertheless, Mothership #2 was on its way and I was feeling good about the game. At this stage we were both trying to take our thirds, when he went to attack mine he forgot to bring his new obs - so had to retreat since my army was cloaked! I gave chase, and his observer fell once again. However, he had brought Templars to the party:
I think this is how Blizzard intended PvP to turn out
Despite storm/feedback, the battle was a massive victory for me - and the game was now tilted in my favour. The one thing that sucked about that exchange, however, was that he was able to snipe my Mothership, which meant Mothership #3 needed to be produced. With the remainder of my army, I cleared out his expansion attempts and once Mothership #3 arrived - it was game over.
While Bamboo did play fairly passive, I can't say I blame him. Firstly he didn't know I was building Motherships so he didn't know about the timing window, secondly good forcefields can completely turn a battle around and his advantage could very easily turn into a disadvantage if he pressed the attack. It's a balancing act, and PvP is pretty tricky to get right.
The effectiveness of the Phoenix-Mothership combo really helped me claw this game back, and thus, it's plausible that this unit combination is viable in the midgame for PvP. The game against Bamboo is arguably the most fun PvP I've ever played, and at the end of that game I was left feeling ecstatic - I think thats a direct consequence of using Motherships to great effect in the worst matchup in Starcraft II!
I will need to run some more trials, and since PvP doesn't always get to the midgame due to 4gateing and whatnot, that may take a while. But for now, all I can say is:
Motherships in PvP: Is it Viable? meh, it's plausible!
So if you're tired of Colossus wars in PvP, maybe you should try building a Mothership a try; it might just surprise you! If you are a Phoenix player, then I definitely encourage you to test out building this awesome unit when you get to the midgame, even if you lose, you'll look awesome for building one
UPDATE: Played another game today vs Tamajka ~1300 pts, but has a high mmr judging from his matchlist
Basically, we enter the midgame and I would say we are about even. We've both transferred to our naturals, he's gone Colossus tech and I survived his first push with colossus. So then I tech Mothership and get one of those badboys out. Then when I move out I make a series of stupid blunders; - forget to macro - don't notice he has just expanded to the gold expand - attack into his main, trapping my units Indeed, attacking into his main was a very stupid idea since what I should have done is used vortex to snipe half his army (like I did) then pull back - but of course my vortex was right on the escape path so I couldn't run away. Nevertheless, I killed 2k worth of units before the Vortex wore off. So while I lost the game, I wouldn't blame the mothership for my loss, rather my idiotic play. Although once again, his two observers get sniped really quickly by my phoenix
I dno, I still feel like Motherships have a place, just gotta work on it some more until it become natural. Update: 1/10/2010 Played another game vs Banana Split I forget his rating! But he posts on TL so that makes him better than more bnetters So basically, we enter a Colossus massing war. I decide that I want no part in this shenanigans so instead of adding a 2nd robo, like he does, I add a stargate/beacon. He keeps massing Colossus, I get a Mothership out while still pumping Colossus - the result is a massive victory for me. I definitely feel that Mothership midgames will become the norm in PvP - they're so fucking good. Update: 3/10/2010 Played another one! (funny how rare these are) vs Tenpointfive - 1500~ protoss on euro. I open dual 10 gate since the game before he tried to 4warpgate rush me (and died) so I thought I'd cheese him back this game. Turns out that he doesn't die, and some miracle stalkers keep him in the game. Then we're at a deadlock, as is usual in PvP, since neither one of us can break each others ramp since we have FF. Thus, War of the Worlds commences and we start making Colossus. Then I fuck up something terrible and lose my first Colossus and fall behind in army. With nothing to lose, I go "fuck it" and strive for mothership. In the decisive battle, phoenix do their job sniping the observer amongst all the madness and the game is mine.
Funny how it doesn't matter if your 1000minerals behind in army when you have a mothership.
If you have something you think would be good for "Is it Viable?" please shoot me a PM! Please try to stay civil in this thread, keep it imbalance free (i.e. dont bitch about anything being OP) and try to remain open minded. I'm not claiming this is the be all and end all of PvP, I'm simply trying to point out alternatives that are viable - the matchup is so dull at the moment that anything that breathes life into it is a good thing
I think this is how Blizzard intended PvP to turn out
This one definitely looks like a Blizzard internal screenshot that turned up in a publication somewhere. It has that feeling of trying to show as much stuff as possible in one shot.
In all the stuff of yours I read, Plexa, I always think it would look even better if you used its where necessary instead of it's all the time.
I think this is how Blizzard intended PvP to turn out
This one definitely looks like a Blizzard internal screenshot that turned up in a publication somewhere. It has that feeling of trying to show as much stuff as possible in one shot.
In all the stuff of yours I read, Plexa, I always think it would look even better if you used its where necessary instead of it's all the time.
fixed the it's/its issue, I hope! But yea, that screenshot is actually from the game o.o haha
I love it when people make the effort to try out their ideas and it plays out. Since most people most likely haven't dealt with this, there's a good chance it will surprise them, and forces them to panic. However, I feel that this will leave you vulnerable to something. I don't know what, but it is itching me. Glad to see you having fun with this match up.
On September 24 2010 18:44 Corinthos wrote: I love it when people make the effort to try out their ideas and it plays out. Since most people most likely haven't dealt with this, there's a good chance it will surprise them, and forces them to panic. However, I feel that this will leave you vulnerable to something. I don't know what, but it is itching me. Glad to see you having fun with this match up.
p.s. welcome to NA let's play more often!
It's vulnerable to a timing push when the Mothership is 75% done. At this time he has the most units possible and I have the least, and the Mothership is still quite a way off completion. Since I'm trying to base this off of the immortal/phoenix opening and transition into this in the midgame, there isn't really any opening weaknesses - just gotta pick the transition time right. When the Mothership is out, the game is even, if not in my favour. And that's the beautiful thing about it imo
I was wondering what you were going to do for the observer. Phoenix is just the most elegant solution. Please do more games until you have a more conclusive answer to the Is It Viable question. :D
If this became a normal build, Day[9] would start humping the screen.
Yeah... pretty much matches with my experience. It's quite good in PvP because observers die sooo quickly, even without phoenixes. And it's really really hard to convince yourself to spend a lot of gas/robo building time on an observer unless you absolutely need it, so people skimp on them. Vikings render the Mothership pretty useless. I've had some success with them against Zerg, but that's usually been because they don't have any overseers and are like "WTF A MOTHERSHIP!?!" and then die before they can do anything.
If they ever reduce the observer cost to 75 gas like they should, I get the feeling it won't be quite as good.
Plexa, do you ladder on the NA servers at all? I played against a "Plexa" yesterday and he stomped me two games in a row and I was just baffled at how horribly I got beat. Just curious if it was you.
An interesting strategy, It could be absolutely devastating, By doing this, you force the opponent to spend tons of gas and robotics build time on observers. Out of curiosity, after sniping the observer with phoenix, do you pick up the immortals/HT's to prevent retreat from those expensive units, or try to snipe a colossus or two?
Hmmm, I'm thinking and thinking on what could make this build better and for some reason, I feel that what's even better than the Phoenix/Imm build is the VR/Imm build that someone had suggested earlier (can't find the thread ) I think it would be viable only because for the time the mothership is out there, it gives the VRs a chance to charge up their attack for defense and for offense, you could mass recall already charged up VRs to come in and wreak havoc.
Of course, this build would have to come at a much later part of the game with at least 2/3 bases but I can see it laying waste to an army of stalker/colossus. Plus, you'd have the fleet beacon out already to get Speedrays... Then again, phoenix is usually the better unit so I'm sure this idea will be shot down haha.
But then again, I'm only 1100 gold so take my suggestion with a grain of salt.
I think it would be viable only because for the time the mothership is out there, it gives the VRs a chance to charge up their attack for defense and for offense, you could mass recall already charged up VRs to come in and wreak havoc.
Played another game today vs Tamajka ~1300 pts, but has a high mmr judging from his matchlist
Basically, we enter the midgame and I would say we are about even. We've both transferred to our naturals, he's gone Colossus tech and I survived his first push with colossus. So then I tech Mothership and get one of those badboys out. Then when I move out I make a series of stupid blunders; - forget to macro - don't notice he has just expanded to the gold expand - attack into his main, trapping my units Indeed, attacking into his main was a very stupid idea since what I should have done is used vortex to snipe half his army (like I did) then pull back - but of course my vortex was right on the escape path so I couldn't run away. Nevertheless, I killed 2k worth of units before the Vortex wore off. So while I lost the game, I wouldn't blame the mothership for my loss, rather my idiotic play. Although once again, his two observers get sniped really quickly by my phoenix
I dno, I still feel like Motherships have a place, just gotta work on it some more until it become natural.
First off, this build/thread is awesome, Plexa. Well done.
I have a question for anyone who knows about this phoenix/immortal opening. It seems like aside from the phoenixes and immortals, your core army composition is mostly zealots, with a little stalker/sentry support. So, assuming the opponent went 3 Gate Robo Colossus:
What do you do with your phoenixes during the battle?
- Focus the Colossi? - Lift the Zealots? - Lift the Stalkers? - Lift the Sentries? - Do you lift 1 at a time or just try to take things out of the fight?
I'm leaning towards lifting the Sentries first because they die quickly and force fields will hamper your immortal's ability to do damage. But lifting the zealots could also be important since they're very high dps.
Also, would your priorities on this change once you have a Mothership out?
On September 26 2010 01:12 Shlowpoke wrote: First off, this build/thread is awesome, Plexa. Well done.
I have a question for anyone who knows about this phoenix/immortal opening. It seems like aside from the phoenixes and immortals, your core army composition is mostly zealots, with a little stalker/sentry support. So, assuming the opponent went 3 Gate Robo Colossus:
What do you do with your phoenixes during the battle?
- Focus the Colossi? - Lift the Zealots? - Lift the Stalkers? - Lift the Sentries? - Do you lift 1 at a time or just try to take things out of the fight?
I'm leaning towards lifting the Sentries first because they die quickly and force fields will hamper your immortal's ability to do damage. But lifting the zealots could also be important since they're very high dps.
Also, would your priorities on this change once you have a Mothership out?
proably lift sentries, zealots and stalkers, in that order, only 1-2 a time. Your goal is to add dps, not to disable.
My opponent and I were only 1000 diamond, but this gets the point across. The main thing to note is that the mothership saved me from a base trade situation. After that, frequent vortex's rocked that game.
Funny i had just a game when i went for mothership, although, it was PvT and vs a high lvl gold i think it was. The guy simply fortifed hes front entrance and FE in lost temple..hell he even got the bunker upgrade. Then it was like "immortals mabey? um...how the hell im gonna break that wall..?"...oh wait.. i had that evil smile for a moment, got the MS and hell it was so dam fun recalling a mass of immortals,collosi zeaots and stalkers right into hes mineral line.....he was suprised and quited after a few moments lol.. dam too bad i didnt saved the replay.
too dangrous to try it in PVP imo, as ur prob gonna get collosi/void rushed/4 gated roflstomped on the way u get to it.
Since you're already getting the Fleet Beacon, how effective do you think it would be to throw a Carrier or two into the mix? Their enormous burst damage would be great for sniping Colossi.
The problem with carriers is that intercepters get sucked into vortex :/
also, getting carriers and the mothership is quite a strain on the econ-belt. I haven't played games where getting a carrier with my mothership is viable quite yet...
Another awesome thread, I'd been thinking about how to break away from the standard war of the worlds midgame in PvP (hasn't everyone?) but it wasn't quite clicking, mothership may just be the answer. Thanks bro.
I really enjoyed your post. I like the concept of the Protoss Mothership and I was stoked when I used one for the first time. Maybe there's more to them than meets the eye.
Sweet thread, the pheonix + mothership revelation is really the key point. However, I don't see how this is presented as an alternative to colossus. Once the game goes a bit later and the 'rushing mothership' idea is done, wouldn't you still be best off massing colossus under your mothership?
I've experimented with MS lately, too. While I didn't think of Ob-snipe, I had one compliment my Zealot/sentry/HT gateway army against T. Vortex+FF arround Vortex+Storm on concentrated army was pretty hillarious to watch.
Haven't tried it since but this thread sure inspires me to have some more trials with this build against P.
I played around with this transition because of Day9s Monday Funday with the Carrier rush before expansion. I had a lot of fun with it but its really hard to hold off early aggression or even korean 4 gate or possibly even cannon rushing. Have you been cheesed at all while trying this build? It could be i only struggled because i was trying to quick tech for the carriers rather than what you've talked about with the mid game transitions but yeah, would like to know your thoughts on how to deal with cheese on these types of teching builds especially with the zealot nurf.
Does this mean early forge/cannons possibly? When i see an opponent doing that in my games i expect some heavy teching, usually to DTs tho.
On September 26 2010 15:12 iEchoic wrote: Sweet thread, the pheonix + mothership revelation is really the key point. However, I don't see how this is presented as an alternative to colossus. Once the game goes a bit later and the 'rushing mothership' idea is done, wouldn't you still be best off massing colossus under your mothership?
Yeah quite possibly. Simply getting to the point where you are able to build a mothership after going phoenix is quite difficult against a good Colossus player. I think the bottom like is that the mothership massively augments the power of your army (especially when you have phoenix, but not just when you have phoenix - phoenix just make it ez mode) similar to how arbiters made armies in SC1 a lot stronger - but they were just so hard to tech to without dying. Adding mothership really is only a midgame/lategame possibility, and while I'm not an experience phoenix player in pvp, I presume that once colo number reach critical mass that phoenix play just isn't effective anymore.
I agree that this isn't an alternative to Colossus however. The alternative to colossus is the phoenix/immortal play - the mothership just make that style of play a lot stronger when the game drags on
On September 26 2010 16:07 LuDwig- wrote: Really interesting BUT: mothership speed is a huge problem. If you make a mothership you lose your mobility.. How do you solve this problem?
You're absolutely right, and is one of the reasons I lost the game I added yesterday. It just means you have to be careful where you pick your battles. Although, if he counters me and I'm out of position, I would be far more content to base trade than he would be since if he loses his ability to produce observers, then when we do inevitably end up fighting I'll have the advantage since I can snipe his obs and he can't make anymore! Phoenix are still really mobile and capable of harass (and I suppose, mass recall can offset spreading your army around the map a bit as well). With all of that said, I would say that this strategy would really struggle against blink stalkers =/
On September 26 2010 17:28 Ctoan wrote: I played around with this transition because of Day9s Monday Funday with the Carrier rush before expansion. I had a lot of fun with it but its really hard to hold off early aggression or even korean 4 gate or possibly even cannon rushing. Have you been cheesed at all while trying this build? It could be i only struggled because i was trying to quick tech for the carriers rather than what you've talked about with the mid game transitions but yeah, would like to know your thoughts on how to deal with cheese on these types of teching builds especially with the zealot nurf.
Does this mean early forge/cannons possibly? When i see an opponent doing that in my games i expect some heavy teching, usually to DTs tho.
Well the thing is this isn't really a build, more a midgame transition. So yea, of course I've been cheesed when planning to go motherships midgame - but that just comes back to basic pvp anti-cheese know how.
On September 26 2010 16:10 RyuChus wrote: Is that the same Mantra that was in the Day9 Daily? 0.0!
No idea, I don't watch day9 haha.
On September 26 2010 16:02 KhrisKruel wrote: So I thought..."hey if it works in diamond, maybe it'll work in plat."
For some reason I can't upload replays. But yeah it's never failed so far after 5 games
Plenty of site around allow you to upload replays, check the replay thread on TL for some of the myriad of options
On September 26 2010 10:30 Alzadar wrote: Since you're already getting the Fleet Beacon, how effective do you think it would be to throw a Carrier or two into the mix? Their enormous burst damage would be great for sniping Colossi.
In the right situation they would be viable, I think. But midgame, or even rushing to them, I don't think so. Firstly guardian shield would become an essential component of your opponents army since that would take a good percentage of the carrier damage out (20% i think). Next, in contrast to the mothership, the carrier doesn't have any additional benefits for the rest of your army and works out to cost 400+ minerals once you've built all the interceptors. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not going to have a great impact on the battle once it comes out, in contrast to a mothership. However, in a lategame situation I guess they would be amazing ! Although with the current state of pvp i would doubt you'd ever be able to get the kind of economy to support them.
On September 26 2010 08:43 Mr.Minionman wrote: Used this strategy today, it was awesome!!! I was in shock and awe through that, and apparently so was my opponent.
My opponent and I were only 1000 diamond, but this gets the point across. The main thing to note is that the mothership saved me from a base trade situation. After that, frequent vortex's rocked that game.
Awesome job! Since SC2 is such a new game and people are so accustomed to Motherships sucking in PvT/PvZ, people are unwilling or really scared to try them in PvP. Once you get over the hurdle of actually building one in a game, you realise they they don't suck as hard as your intuition thinks they should. Although I must say, you feel like a fucking champion when you make a mothership and win against a good opponent.
I think it would be viable only because for the time the mothership is out there, it gives the VRs a chance to charge up their attack for defense and for offense, you could mass recall already charged up VRs to come in and wreak havoc.
I know this thread is about PvP, and i don't want to hijack, but going Phoenix opener in PvZ into a mothership at least was pretty damn strong in Late-beta.It's easier there since you don't need an observer to snipe his detection.
On September 26 2010 21:58 TrueIsAwesome wrote: I know this thread is about PvP, and i don't want to hijack, but going Phoenix opener in PvZ into a mothership at least was pretty damn strong in Late-beta.It's easier there since you don't need an observer to snipe his detection.
Yea but overseers are armored so they take ages to die blinkstalker/dt is significantly more effective (especially if you've got +3 weapons).
Been a reader of teamliquid since SC2 came out. I registered to post on the forum simply because I wanted to say that the presentation of this thread is incredible, probably the best I've seen of any strategy thread.
I'm only an amateur gold league protoss right now but I haven't been able to fit mothership into my build. I will definitely look into it. Phoenix opening seems pretty awesome considering the observer instakill.
On September 26 2010 08:43 Mr.Minionman wrote: Used this strategy today, it was awesome!!! I was in shock and awe through that, and apparently so was my opponent.
My opponent and I were only 1000 diamond, but this gets the point across. The main thing to note is that the mothership saved me from a base trade situation. After that, frequent vortex's rocked that game.
Tried this build out on a PvP on Delta Quadrant. Worked beautifully! I had some early problems with him blinking up above my natural, but as soon as my mothership popped I was able to just roll him, no contest. The Phoenix performed their job beautifully as well
Just tried it out. After losing a couple zealots in the start but holding of the following 4-gate push I feel I'm behind and have to take a gamble so I go for a mothership. A single push finishes it. It turned out I wasn't really behind and could have expanded but this worked out great instead. keep in mind I'm just 1100 pt diamond and make a couple small mistakes this game
Plexa, can you do a mini-guide on your phoenix-immortal opening? I've been trying out phoenix openings with limited success, and I feel like I must be missing something obvious in the strategy.
Also, in response to people suggesting adding collosi into the mix in the late game, I'd suggest using carriers instead. Their big weakness in PvP is that you can't really get to them, but in this case, you'll already have the tech up. They also completely punish investing most of your gas in robo units that can't shoot up.
I would also love a mini-guide on the phoenix-immortal opening.
Can someone also explain to me why I am building immortals? I cannot seem to micro them in battle before or after the mother ship to hit stalkers or collusi. In addition, the hard shield's isn't really being used from what i can tell.
On September 26 2010 10:30 Alzadar wrote: Since you're already getting the Fleet Beacon, how effective do you think it would be to throw a Carrier or two into the mix? Their enormous burst damage would be great for sniping Colossi.
In the right situation they would be viable, I think. But midgame, or even rushing to them, I don't think so. Firstly guardian shield would become an essential component of your opponents army since that would take a good percentage of the carrier damage out (20% i think). Next, in contrast to the mothership, the carrier doesn't have any additional benefits for the rest of your army and works out to cost 400+ minerals once you've built all the interceptors. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not going to have a great impact on the battle once it comes out, in contrast to a mothership. However, in a lategame situation I guess they would be amazing ! Although with the current state of pvp i would doubt you'd ever be able to get the kind of economy to support them.
Carriers are pretty amazing units, the main drawback is the speed, but since you're getting a mothership thats not much of an issue. I think adding one would definitely be worth it, especially if your build is light on stalkers since those are the main reason to get guardian shield. Also if its only a few sentries you could snipe them.
Also if you get up to +3 air weapons, they'd be straight up demonic. (even if they have 3 armor they probably dont have 3 shields)
On September 30 2010 01:50 kcdc wrote: Plexa, can you do a mini-guide on your phoenix-immortal opening? I've been trying out phoenix openings with limited success, and I feel like I must be missing something obvious in the strategy.
Also, in response to people suggesting adding collosi into the mix in the late game, I'd suggest using carriers instead. Their big weakness in PvP is that you can't really get to them, but in this case, you'll already have the tech up. They also completely punish investing most of your gas in robo units that can't shoot up.
I'm a complete nubcake using phoenix/immortal although I lose to it all the time. It's not really viable atm since Phoenix's bug out =[ when they patch it I'd be happy to write something up.
On September 28 2010 00:33 Floophead_III wrote: Man you gotta do an "Is it viable?" on Neural Parasite, in anything. =P
It is... it's ridiculously underused lol people are just too caught up in the nerfs it got to realise its still really really good. And the players that do use it are typically bad and behind in the game anyway, and then blame the loss on going NP...
On September 26 2010 15:12 iEchoic wrote: Sweet thread, the pheonix + mothership revelation is really the key point. However, I don't see how this is presented as an alternative to colossus. Once the game goes a bit later and the 'rushing mothership' idea is done, wouldn't you still be best off massing colossus under your mothership?
Well, it just so happens that a while minutes ago I was about to enter a Colossus massing war. Rather than enter into that nonsense, I put down a stargate/beacon instead of 2nd robotics and pumped out a mothership while still massing Colossus. Of course, I made a few phoenix just to snipe his observers. And well, Mothership/Colossus rapes so hard it's not funny. I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
As to adding carriers, at the moment anyone who encouters the mothership dies - generally speaking. I could mass whatever I wanted and still win because you can't hit what you can't see. So yea, in that respect Carriers are certainly 'viable' after mothership. Additionally, the mothership is too good defensively - if he attacked you, you vortex half his stuff and kill the rest - instant GG, so making a carrier after mothership would work in that respect as well.
On October 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
Ok, after trying mothership + phoenix on 2 base after getting colossus, I have to agree that this is the new PvP midgame of choice. If controlled correctly it's ridiculously powerful, and even if you suck at control you're at least no worse off than if you had dropped a second robo and pumped double colossus. Doesn't really help the tedium of 4gate 9/10 games but in the rare case that you manage to bring a PvP into midgame this is amazing and so fun.
I'm saying this after a win and a loss doing this btw, the loss to me a moving and not telling my phoenixes to kill the observer, overwhelmed with how awesome motherships are.
who cares if it is only a one match up method? in my mind, that's how all things should be(strong in one or two places and week to all others. that is how an rts should be done. PvP isn't solved yet and i hope to see the counter to this posted soon because I'm starting to be beet by it in bronze.
On October 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
Ok, after trying mothership + phoenix on 2 base after getting colossus, I have to agree that this is the new PvP midgame of choice. If controlled correctly it's ridiculously powerful, and even if you suck at control you're at least no worse off than if you had dropped a second robo and pumped double colossus. Doesn't really help the tedium of 4gate 9/10 games but in the rare case that you manage to bring a PvP into midgame this is amazing and so fun.
I'm saying this after a win and a loss doing this btw, the loss to me a moving and not telling my phoenixes to kill the observer, overwhelmed with how awesome motherships are.
I've already started theorycrafting Mothership vs Mothership PvP LOL
On October 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
Ok, after trying mothership + phoenix on 2 base after getting colossus, I have to agree that this is the new PvP midgame of choice. If controlled correctly it's ridiculously powerful, and even if you suck at control you're at least no worse off than if you had dropped a second robo and pumped double colossus. Doesn't really help the tedium of 4gate 9/10 games but in the rare case that you manage to bring a PvP into midgame this is amazing and so fun.
I'm saying this after a win and a loss doing this btw, the loss to me a moving and not telling my phoenixes to kill the observer, overwhelmed with how awesome motherships are.
I've already started theorycrafting Mothership vs Mothership PvP LOL
On October 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I genuinely believe that this could be legitimate PvP midgame.
Ok, after trying mothership + phoenix on 2 base after getting colossus, I have to agree that this is the new PvP midgame of choice. If controlled correctly it's ridiculously powerful, and even if you suck at control you're at least no worse off than if you had dropped a second robo and pumped double colossus. Doesn't really help the tedium of 4gate 9/10 games but in the rare case that you manage to bring a PvP into midgame this is amazing and so fun.
I'm saying this after a win and a loss doing this btw, the loss to me a moving and not telling my phoenixes to kill the observer, overwhelmed with how awesome motherships are.
I've already started theorycrafting Mothership vs Mothership PvP LOL
The main problem lately I'm having is that I'm too eager to get the mothership out. it seems like the mothership only works if they have already teched to Collosi, because if they see air units or the fleet beacon, they just start massing Stalkers or Void Rays...
Would you say that this is a reactive strat only, or do you have a method of stopping mass AA?
Motherships along with your own AoE units are rediculously awesome. You can pull a large amount (or all if they run into instead of fighting with a reduced army) of their army into a vortex, and position your collosus so they can all immediatly fire when the vortex breaks.
All the defenders units will be stacked in a very small stack and will immediatly spread, but not before your collosi get off there first shot which should hit EVERY single unit he had in the vortex. So if you have the critical mass nessicary, like 5-6 or whatever it is, can you one shot all of his zealots and stalkers?
This shows banelings entering a vortex to do AoE damage, but could collosi or even templar get some damage on more units than would be otherwise possible?
damnit why arent there mor players like u plexa??? instead of trying to get desprete points on the ladder, we should all be trying out new ways to play this game. thanks for hte post! really good read.
On October 02 2010 23:16 Mr.Minionman wrote: The main problem lately I'm having is that I'm too eager to get the mothership out. it seems like the mothership only works if they have already teched to Collosi, because if they see air units or the fleet beacon, they just start massing Stalkers or Void Rays...
Would you say that this is a reactive strat only, or do you have a method of stopping mass AA?
If you're rushing Mothership off of one base then you're probably going to die because you dont have any units etc. The mothership tech + mothership, like I said in the post, costs about the same as colossus + range + tech, so you do need to rely on him making that investment since mothership leaves you with a gaping timing window. It's a lot safer to tech mothership in the mid game.
If you want to rush them I would suggest the following; clearing your base of obs, making sure you have ample units before teching there (i.e. if you have a fleet of phoenix then he's not going to VR tech), and you're going to have to adapt to whatever he's doing.
On October 03 2010 00:19 xiyuema wrote: damnit why arent there mor players like u plexa??? instead of trying to get desprete points on the ladder, we should all be trying out new ways to play this game. thanks for hte post! really good read.
Lots of players just copy what others are doing without really thinking. I'm guilty of it myself a lot of the time, and that's because you just wanna practice your mechanics and get better (in my case, anyway). I've got a few ideas left for this is it viable series yet! It's just a matter of theorycraft + putting theorycraft to use, and a lot of the time it's accident as well. Like in this case, I wouldn't have thought motherships were half as viable if it weren't for realising phoenix snipe obs amazingly well.
On October 03 2010 04:25 Plexa wrote: If you're rushing Mothership off of one base then you're probably going to die because you dont have any units etc. The mothership tech + mothership, like I said in the post, costs about the same as colossus + range + tech, so you do need to rely on him making that investment since mothership leaves you with a gaping timing window. It's a lot safer to tech mothership in the mid game.
was the same cost part in gas,minerals,time,space,and supply?
On October 03 2010 04:25 Plexa wrote: If you're rushing Mothership off of one base then you're probably going to die because you dont have any units etc. The mothership tech + mothership, like I said in the post, costs about the same as colossus + range + tech, so you do need to rely on him making that investment since mothership leaves you with a gaping timing window. It's a lot safer to tech mothership in the mid game.
was the same cost part in gas,minerals,time,space,and supply?
Mothership (400/400) + Fleet Beacon (300/200) + Stargate (150/150) = 850/700 vs Colossus (300/200) + Robotics Bay (200/200) + Range (200/200) + Robotics Facility (200/100) = 900/700
Timing wise pretty sure the Colossus comes out faster since a Mothership takes 160 time to build, while Colossus takes 75
On October 03 2010 04:25 Plexa wrote: If you're rushing Mothership off of one base then you're probably going to die because you dont have any units etc. The mothership tech + mothership, like I said in the post, costs about the same as colossus + range + tech, so you do need to rely on him making that investment since mothership leaves you with a gaping timing window. It's a lot safer to tech mothership in the mid game.
was the same cost part in gas,minerals,time,space,and supply?
Mothership (400/400) + Fleet Beacon (300/200) + Stargate (150/150) = 850/700 vs Colossus (300/200) + Robotics Bay (200/200) + Range (200/200) + Robotics Facility (200/100) = 900/700
Timing wise pretty sure the Colossus comes out faster since a Mothership takes 160 time to build, while Colossus takes 75
you missed space and supply. By time i meant all the things including production facilities, research(which i know can overlap), and unit production. i do recognize that you are starting this at where the two separate from the shared path and are also assuming you have enough pylon coverage already from keeping supply up. i am fine with that
Not only would mothership use be awesome in PvP or any matchup for that matter.. but there is a 50/50 chance that with all the cloaked units and the mothership flying around, it may lag the other player so hard they'll mismicro something while you just run over them! -- Win/Win situation in my honest opinion.
vs Tenpointfive - 1500~ protoss on euro. I open dual 10 gate since the game before he tried to 4warpgate rush me (and he died) so I thought I'd cheese him back this game. Turns out that he doesn't die, and some miracle stalkers keep him in the game. Then we're at a deadlock, as is usual in PvP, since neither one of us can break each others ramp since we have FF. Thus, War of the Worlds commences and we start making Colossus. Then I fuck up something terrible and lose my first Colossus and fall behind in army. With nothing to lose, I go "fuck it" and strive for mothership. In the decisive battle, phoenix do their job sniping the observer amongst all the madness and the game is mine.
Funny how it doesn't matter if your 1000minerals behind in army when you have a mothership.
I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
Plexa, instead of time after time of rebuilding that mothership, why don't you transition into carriers? You can't be too greedy and have BOTH in a reasonable timespawn- but cmon the time/gas required to get FOUR motherships total out in a game is the same amount of resources that could be used to get an insurmountable amount of carriers- which I think are an even more underused unit.
Or how about this:I recently saw a day9 daily that make me wonder- I'm neither a protoss nor a diamond player, so please take this out for a whirl-
One base carrier rush into mothership Tech straight into carriers, and then try to swarm his normal colo tech, or phoenixes, basically a lot of the protoss units minus stalkers. After the carrier, expand, and now you have a reasonable income to get motherships- plus mothership transitions PERFECTLY out of carrier rush (fleet beacon already down)
There is this one game where I faced a turtling protoss who went mothership/mass carriers, I just sniped the mothership though and was able to deal with the carriers afterwards, but it did heavily dent my entire army. This would mean skipping colo tech completely however, but obviously colos can't attack air so it might make you win lol.
On October 04 2010 06:57 Zvendetta wrote: Plexa, instead of time after time of rebuilding that mothership, why don't you transition into carriers? You can't be too greedy and have BOTH in a reasonable timespawn- but cmon the time/gas required to get FOUR motherships total out in a game is the same amount of resources that could be used to get an insurmountable amount of carriers- which I think are an even more underused unit.
Or how about this:I recently saw a day9 daily that make me wonder- I'm neither a protoss nor a diamond player, so please take this out for a whirl-
One base carrier rush into mothership Tech straight into carriers, and then try to swarm his normal robo/gateway tech- (essentially anything but mass phoenix or mass stalker) After the carrier, expand, and now you have a reasonable income to get motherships- plus mothership transitions PERFECTLY out of carrier rush (fleet beacon already down)
There is this one game where I faced a turtling protoss who went mothership/mass carriers, I just sniped the mothership though and was able to deal with the carriers afterwards, but it did heavily dent my entire army. This would mean skipping colo tech completely however, but obviously colos can't attack air so it might make you win lol.
On October 04 2010 06:57 Zvendetta wrote: Plexa, instead of time after time of rebuilding that mothership, why don't you transition into carriers? You can't be too greedy and have BOTH in a reasonable timespawn- but cmon the time/gas required to get FOUR motherships total out in a game is the same amount of resources that could be used to get an insurmountable amount of carriers- which I think are an even more underused unit.
Or how about this:I recently saw a day9 daily that make me wonder- I'm neither a protoss nor a diamond player, so please take this out for a whirl-
One base carrier rush into mothership Tech straight into carriers, and then try to swarm his normal robo/gateway tech- (essentially anything but mass phoenix or mass stalker) After the carrier, expand, and now you have a reasonable income to get motherships- plus mothership transitions PERFECTLY out of carrier rush (fleet beacon already down)
There is this one game where I faced a turtling protoss who went mothership/mass carriers, I just sniped the mothership though and was able to deal with the carriers afterwards, but it did heavily dent my entire army. This would mean skipping colo tech completely however, but obviously colos can't attack air so it might make you win lol.
most useless post ever!! it would be better if you put a peiod as the whole post.
On October 03 2010 15:57 Plexa wrote: vs Tenpointfive - 1500~ protoss on euro. I open dual 10 gate since the game before he tried to 4warpgate rush me (and he died) so I thought I'd cheese him back this game. Turns out that he doesn't die, and some miracle stalkers keep him in the game. Then we're at a deadlock, as is usual in PvP, since neither one of us can break each others ramp since we have FF. Thus, War of the Worlds commences and we start making Colossus. Then I fuck up something terrible and lose my first Colossus and fall behind in army. With nothing to lose, I go "fuck it" and strive for mothership. In the decisive battle, phoenix do their job sniping the observer amongst all the madness and the game is mine.
Funny how it doesn't matter if your 1000minerals behind in army when you have a mothership.
Totally, any amount of gateway units doesn't play any role when you vortex half their collolus. Or if you snipe their obs lolol.
On October 04 2010 06:57 Zvendetta wrote: Plexa, instead of time after time of rebuilding that mothership, why don't you transition into carriers?
I think, you go for a mothership because 1 mothership has a much larger upfront impact, than trickling out carriers.
I actually did a silly game but quite similars to yours today, where my opponent did a 4gate mass stalkers, but I decided that let's screw that, let's do a forge and FE! So I did. I evolved my 1gate into 4gate, spammed a decently balanced army, got out 6-8 phoenix (because they are just so powerful against a stalker heavy army) and then I decided that, what the heck, let's do a mothership because I got the income for it. The mothership made me push well into my oppponent's nat, but I micro'd poorly and I lost it to the stalker blink (I vortex'd, but the stalkers blinked away just before the vortex got cast). Then I never really got back into the game, but I think my BO could be tweaked and work even against a 4gate mass stalkers, given the opponent does not play aggressively, but even if the opponent does, phoenix + 3gate should work to defend that.
What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
^Rofl. that would be hilarious, though admittedly, it'd come down to who had more stalkers.
With recent games, I've found VR's go well with the Mothership too. You have time to charge your VR's, and they are protected from target fire. food for thought.
On October 04 2010 09:22 Mr.Minionman wrote: ^Rofl. that would be hilarious, though admittedly, it'd come down to who had more stalkers.
With recent games, I've found VR's go well with the Mothership too. You have time to charge your VR's, and they are protected from target fire. food for thought.
I think I could definitely have managed that game, would there have been some VR and less of my own stalkers, since fully charged VR just eat stalkers for breakfast, and there's plenty of opportunity to charge them when they are hidden under a mothership.
I would like to try it some more, however, it is very costly and I doubt it's a good opener... but it could work if you start with either a 3gate + stargate and then develop it to 2-3 stargate + fleet beacon in mid- to late game. I imagine the army would look something like chargelots, phoenix, VR + mothership. The reason why I would like phoenix in the army is because I'm a phoenix whore, no kidding. But mostly, I have really started to like to go phoenix vs stalkers. Now, if Blizz could just fix that stupid graviton beam bug, I would be even happier.
On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote: I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me
How well do you understand PvP??
On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote: What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
Well, I too have finally had it with 4wg/Colossus n+1 battles, so I decided to do some carrier rushes tonight. Its pretty OK if you can hold your ramp. The first carrier comes out right around when your unable to take any more, and then it goes on and saves you from the push. Grabbing a MS afterwords is the easiest thing ever, and they really are amazing in PvP battles. You could tryyyy to go straight for MS I guess, but I think the build times and money required would get you killed before it comes out.
Great strategy plexa, MS in PvP actually makes the matchup somewhat tolerable!
On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote: I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me
On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote: What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map.
Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers.
On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote: I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me
How well do you understand PvP??
On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote: What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map.
Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers.
I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement.
You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible.
On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote: I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me
How well do you understand PvP??
On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote: What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map.
Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers.
I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement.
You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible.
Well the way I see it is that you are doing the Protoss version of the tank push. Probably works much better on smaller maps if you can get away with it.
On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote: I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me
How well do you understand PvP??
On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote: What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map.
Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers.
I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement.
You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible.
Well the way I see it is that you are doing the Protoss version of the tank push. Probably works much better on smaller maps if you can get away with it.
Have you watched any of the replays provided in this thread? And yeah, you probably are the only person to use a double immortal drop with 3 zealot warp in in PvP.
On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote: I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me
How well do you understand PvP??
On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote: What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map.
Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers.
I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement.
You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible.
Well the way I see it is that you are doing the Protoss version of the tank push. Probably works much better on smaller maps if you can get away with it.
Have you watched any of the replays provided in this thread? And yeah, you probably are the only person to use a double immortal drop with 3 zealot warp in in PvP.
Yeah you forgot to put 3 probes on gas in that Blistering Sands game for the longest time. I still think something mobile like Blink Stalkers would be a real problem for this type of play. But yeah if they don't pressure you too much I can see it working.
I'd also like to point out how blink stalkers are the only way to deal with it (if you do it correctly). Nothing else in the protoss army doing colussi has even a shot.
@Plexa do you think this is viable versus zerg? It seems like a viable if not strong transition if you open with nony style phoenix harass off 1 stargate. The observer sniping thing works except it will just take a few more (albeit crucial) seconds for the overseer to die, and the mothership basically makes your gateway units invincible. The only problem I can think of is against a big roach hyrdra ball where keeping your mothership out of hydra range puts your zealots out of the cloak range. Against zerg you don't even have to go robo and instead just go a pure zealot templar mix for huge DPS with phoenix and the mommyship keeping them cloaked
I'm stoked to try this out. I have been really disappointed by the validity of cloak plays in SC2. Banshees are alright, burrow is rather lackluster, and dark templar are the riskiest investment you can make as protoss (apparently more than mothership XD).
Just did this and it was BEAUTIFUL. Admittedly, I'm not very good at ALL, but after seeing the Colossi start coming, I teched straight to Mothership. Almost didn't finish it either (and lost an expansion to boot), but it popped and the enemy's push turned RIGHT around. Hell, by the end of the encounter, the Mothership was gone along with my economy, but victory was MINE. Thanks Plexa... this was AWESOME.
Plexa, I wanted to thank you a lot, I was really getting absolutly sick of PvP becoming automatically war of the world. I tried it yesterday, and even tho im only 1000-1100 diamond, it was pure ownage and even tho you might say mass stalker will destroy till build, i still see a lot of versility possible at this late in game, but that is just me.
On October 07 2010 05:15 Narph wrote: Plexa, I wanted to thank you a lot, I was really getting absolutly sick of PvP becoming automatically war of the world. I tried it yesterday, and even tho im only 1000-1100 diamond, it was pure ownage and even tho you might say mass stalker will destroy till build, i still see a lot of versility possible at this late in game, but that is just me.
Narf
On October 06 2010 13:57 AsmodeusXI wrote: Just did this and it was BEAUTIFUL. Admittedly, I'm not very good at ALL, but after seeing the Colossi start coming, I teched straight to Mothership. Almost didn't finish it either (and lost an expansion to boot), but it popped and the enemy's push turned RIGHT around. Hell, by the end of the encounter, the Mothership was gone along with my economy, but victory was MINE. Thanks Plexa... this was AWESOME.
Glad to hear it's working
On October 06 2010 02:06 t3tsubo wrote: @Plexa do you think this is viable versus zerg? It seems like a viable if not strong transition if you open with nony style phoenix harass off 1 stargate. The observer sniping thing works except it will just take a few more (albeit crucial) seconds for the overseer to die, and the mothership basically makes your gateway units invincible. The only problem I can think of is against a big roach hyrdra ball where keeping your mothership out of hydra range puts your zealots out of the cloak range. Against zerg you don't even have to go robo and instead just go a pure zealot templar mix for huge DPS with phoenix and the mommyship keeping them cloaked
I'm not a fan of Phoenix openings in PvZ, but of course mass blink stalker is a valid strategy. In that case of course it's viable! Tester often does mass blink stalker into stalker/DT (with stalkers sniping overseers). However, if they bring enough overseers sniping isn't as effective as you would like it to be - thus a mothership would be a much better investment (since vortext can minimise hydra DPS while you kill the many overseers - or conversely, vortex their overseers!!)
On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote: I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me
How well do you understand PvP??
On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote: What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map.
Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers.
I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement.
You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible.
Well the way I see it is that you are doing the Protoss version of the tank push. Probably works much better on smaller maps if you can get away with it.
Have you watched any of the replays provided in this thread? And yeah, you probably are the only person to use a double immortal drop with 3 zealot warp in in PvP.
Yeah you forgot to put 3 probes on gas in that Blistering Sands game for the longest time. I still think something mobile like Blink Stalkers would be a real problem for this type of play. But yeah if they don't pressure you too much I can see it working.
If you're rushing to mothership I agree. If you mix in Mothership into your standard PvP midgame then Blink Stalkers are necessary to fight it - but not sufficient imo. The Colossus under the mothership will deal way too much damage to them for them to win the fight over all (although the mothership will probably die). Stalker/Phoenix or something might be the best counter to this style of player - not sure!!
I haven't actually used motherships at all in 1v1. But everytime I play in team games I always buy a mothership, they are priceless additions to your allies' MMM, hydra or stalker balls. My use of the mothership has made me very popular in team games :D.
For some extra lulz, try using a mothership when your terran ally is going tanks. Vortex the enemy army and you don't even see them pop out, all you see is the smoking ruins of their charred bodies and all you hear is the sound of a single devastating tank salvo :D :D :D
On October 07 2010 17:25 Selendis wrote: I haven't actually used motherships at all in 1v1. But everytime I play in team games I always buy a mothership, they are priceless additions to your allies' MMM, hydra or stalker balls. My use of the mothership has made me very popular in team games :D.
For some extra lulz, try using a mothership when your terran ally is going tanks. Vortex the enemy army and you don't even see them pop out, all you see is the smoking ruins of their charred bodies and all you hear is the sound of a single devastating tank salvo :D :D :D
Taking into consideration that 2on2´s mostly get you hard cheese, (TZ with reaper speedlings ie) you will possibly not very often be able to build a MS. But if you got a PP combo which both Turtle it might get interesting i guess. Dual Mass Voids with MS?!
On October 07 2010 17:25 Selendis wrote: I haven't actually used motherships at all in 1v1. But everytime I play in team games I always buy a mothership, they are priceless additions to your allies' MMM, hydra or stalker balls. My use of the mothership has made me very popular in team games :D.
For some extra lulz, try using a mothership when your terran ally is going tanks. Vortex the enemy army and you don't even see them pop out, all you see is the smoking ruins of their charred bodies and all you hear is the sound of a single devastating tank salvo :D :D :D
Putting like 10 banelings on the vortex works too.
I see all these great battles with motherships in your army, but i am still hesitant to use them in something as seious as 1v1 laddering. I feel at my level of play (900 points diamond), there are still too many 2/4/k4 gates going around in PvPs. Sure i would be willing to do this in 2v2, but 1v1 it seems just too risky for me.
Very well written though, GL on making this the standard-but-not-really-standard build for PvP.
On October 08 2010 01:47 57 Corvette wrote: I see all these great battles with motherships in your army, but i am still hesitant to use them in something as seious as 1v1 laddering. I feel at my level of play (900 points diamond), there are still too many 2/4/k4 gates going around in PvPs. Sure i would be willing to do this in 2v2, but 1v1 it seems just too risky for me.
Very well written though, GL on making this the standard-but-not-really-standard build for PvP.
Mix it into your midgame then, if you manage to get it out it's almost instant win (it would be at 900 pt level)
I love you for this thread, like seriously. Every time I've got past the usual 2gate/4gate/cannon rush nonsense today and it's descended into war of the worlds I've managed to squeeze in a mothership (normally by cutting stalkers/sentries for zealots and a colossus). It's won me most of them.
On October 08 2010 01:47 57 Corvette wrote: I see all these great battles with motherships in your army, but i am still hesitant to use them in something as seious as 1v1 laddering. I feel at my level of play (900 points diamond), there are still too many 2/4/k4 gates going around in PvPs. Sure i would be willing to do this in 2v2, but 1v1 it seems just too risky for me.
Very well written though, GL on making this the standard-but-not-really-standard build for PvP.
Mix it into your midgame then, if you manage to get it out it's almost instant win (it would be at 900 pt level)
not quite, if u get out a mothership, it first has to reach your army/defending base or you have just waisted alot of cry for a slow air unit that gives u sight.
I hope I'm not way off and the other replays you fined tuned it, typed this out in between studying etc. so I'll get to the others eventually ^_^.
BULLET POINTS.
Mothership forces lower unit count, upgrades become more important.
Pointless to get melee with a Mothership so working in voidrays while keeping 4-6 phoenix's would be much better then getting a few zealots.
Sentrys are practically useless when you have a Mothership so getting more observers for vision and using Phoenix's to deny enemy observers would help the motherships lack of mobility.
In my opinion you need to be on 3 bases before getting a mothership otherwise there's a big window where you just have less then your opponent.
Vulnerable to Blink Stalkers+HT (feedback and storm where his units most likely are)
Conclusion, it might be viable but only late in the game and would have to be used very well to be effective.
Just watched the Bamboo game, I'll be slowly watching the rest, but one thing I noticed in that game is right when he saw you kill his proxy pylon at the Xel'Naga and then saw you at his Gold Expo he could've immediately sent a few zealots to your expo and killed a whole lot of probes/forced loss of mining while you warped in zealots or stalkers to defend, either the fact the mothership is so slow can easily be exploited with little pokes.
As well as right after the first big fight where you mothership goes down he could've just pushed in and taken down your expo at the very least.
The issue I see with the mothership (LOVE the idea, been trying to find a stable PvP strat that doesn't revolve around Colossi myeslf) is that it's very slow and unless you're on 3 bases you'll have a substantially smaller army and become very vulnerable to small counter attacks.
At the time you two fought (he should have had a 4th gateway, his macro was a bit off) you had 14 zealots, 8 stalkers, 7 phoenix, 2 sentrys, and the mothership. He had 6 zealots, 2 immortals, 4 colossi, 18 stalkers, and 3 sentrys.
When you two engaged he sat there while most of his units were sitting in a choke trying to kill the few zealots that weren't cloaked. If he would've pulled back and waited till he could get in range of your mothership (if that things out of place for one second being so slow it can be focused down). Pretty much what I'm saying is if he would've fought that better he would've lost far fewer stalkers while being able to focus down your mothership and win with his numbers. Besides all that as soon as he took down your mothership if he ran all his units into the vortex (which btw would have denied you any time to harass his base due to its position) he would have come out even more ahead then he did since he lost a lot of stalkers due to the rest of his army being in the vortex.
As you said sniping that one colossi was a big mistake, you lost 6 phoenix's which is definitely not a fair trade for one colossi. I've had those moments too, after you're always sitting there going "WHYYYY!!!!!!!??!?!?!" and laughing later at the replay ^_^.
Once your second mothership comes out and you two fight again his colossi are in terrible position, add to that he didn't research blink which would've made sniping the mothership (or the long process of taking out 350/350 lol) much easier. Since that's where a lot of the extra units you could've had went, that's not too bad for him to just take the hits while focusing the mothership.
Another issue I see with Mothership is if he gets HT which he did and Feedbacks a 200/200 Energy Mothership, that'd leaving only 150/350 for his stalkers to chew through, add to that a storm and it'll go down pretty quickly (plus the storm will dmg your units near it).
If you are going to go mothership I think a very key part of it needs to be upgrades for your ground troops, since you'll have far fewer then your opponent they need to be more potent. Which shouldn't be an issue since it seems you have an excess of gas after you get your second base with 2/2 gases going. Maybe cutting sentrys (since they're pretty useless for your composition) and getting an Observer every time you're low on minerals but have excess gas, you can keep vision of most of the map by slowly putting observers everywhere and using your Phoenix's to deny any observer scouting by him. With all that map vision it'd help you greatly since it takes so long to reposition your mothership.
Or if you want to more aggressive cut Phoenix's once your mothership is out and start producing Voidrays (or time it so the first one comes out same time etc.) and just cut Zealots to accommodate the extra 100mineral cost (gas isn't an issue since you're already in excess with the composition). But it would be important to keep at least 4-6 Phoenix's with your army at all times so you can snipe the observers fast enough and account for any losses of Phoenix's.
Someone actually did this to me in a PvP the other day. We were neck to neck in supply and he vortex's my collosi and some units, proceeds to kill my remaining army and waits for the vortex to finish to clean up. Although you made it even more awesome with adding phoenix to snipe obs and fight the collosi. I've still got to say that getting the vortex placement right early in the battle can just turn everything around in your favour.
Just had two games vs the same 1500pts Protoss on Euro. Game #1 I got an early advantage since I abused MAP AWARENESS on shakuras and mothership carried the win back home easily.
Game #2 I got raped on jungle basin after him failing at proxy voidrays, then expanding quicker, me failing a small backstab and then him playing solid vs my two motherships total.
Issues I've run into:
A: Blink stalkers. Blinks in, snipes mothership. Probably wouldn't have happened if I didn't get an early disadvantage.
B: Phoenixes shooting Collossi instead of obs. In both games I had to manually snipe it. Once they are sniped his higher unitcount won the fight in game #2.
If anyone is interested I'll upload the replays somewhere, they mostly show that I'm awesome at scouting and that disappearing probes cause me to run all over the fucking map. =P
Did you try getting observer speed to make the sniping easier?
Whoever said that upgrades are important when playing with a mothership... no way. I used to play with being as mobile as possible and getting the upgrade advantage, no way I have the gas for that with the mothership/stalkers only.
Taking into consideration that 2on2´s mostly get you hard cheese, (TZ with reaper speedlings ie) you will possibly not very often be able to build a MS. But if you got a PP combo which both Turtle it might get interesting i guess. Dual Mass Voids with MS?!
on the contrary, I find with team games you get to play longer games than in 1v1's, although rushes are popular. Also depends on the map too.
I don;t reccomend mass voids. void rays are a HARASSING unit. If you are winning through mass voids your opponent is incompetent and you were going to win no matter what you did. best pp combo are things like double 4 warpgate or one guy goes carriers and the other goes collosi if it gets to late game (accompanied of course with stalkers and mothership).
On October 11 2010 18:43 r.Evo wrote:Whoever said that upgrades are important when playing with a mothership... no way. I used to play with being as mobile as possible and getting the upgrade advantage, no way I have the gas for that with the mothership/stalkers only.
That'd be me, even if you're pumping out Stalkers constantly you can still work in a 100min/100gas weapon upgrade, and then as you get your second it'd be easier to work in the second weapon upgrade, then on your third easy to work in the third. The thing is since you'll no matter what have fewer units once your mothership is out you want the units you do have to be as effective as possible. So since in the beginning of the game you won't be rushing for mothership (otherwise you just flat out lose) the upgrades will benefit you when you transition and need to hold with a bit less then what you'd normally have.
On October 11 2010 18:43 r.Evo wrote:Whoever said that upgrades are important when playing with a mothership... no way. I used to play with being as mobile as possible and getting the upgrade advantage, no way I have the gas for that with the mothership/stalkers only.
That'd be me, even if you're pumping out Stalkers constantly you can still work in a 100min/100gas weapon upgrade, and then as you get your second it'd be easier to work in the second weapon upgrade, then on your third easy to work in the third. The thing is since you'll no matter what have fewer units once your mothership is out you want the units you do have to be as effective as possible. So since in the beginning of the game you won't be rushing for mothership (otherwise you just flat out lose) the upgrades will benefit you when you transition and need to hold with a bit less then what you'd normally have.
That logic doesn't make sense to me. If you have fewer units, one more unit makes more of a difference than an upgrade. If you have more units, you'd much prefer the upgrade. Take for example, in the extreme case - if you have one zealot, getting +1 damage is much worse than getting an extra zealot.
On October 11 2010 18:43 r.Evo wrote:Whoever said that upgrades are important when playing with a mothership... no way. I used to play with being as mobile as possible and getting the upgrade advantage, no way I have the gas for that with the mothership/stalkers only.
That'd be me, even if you're pumping out Stalkers constantly you can still work in a 100min/100gas weapon upgrade, and then as you get your second it'd be easier to work in the second weapon upgrade, then on your third easy to work in the third. The thing is since you'll no matter what have fewer units once your mothership is out you want the units you do have to be as effective as possible. So since in the beginning of the game you won't be rushing for mothership (otherwise you just flat out lose) the upgrades will benefit you when you transition and need to hold with a bit less then what you'd normally have.
That logic doesn't make sense to me. If you have fewer units, one more unit makes more of a difference than an upgrade. If you have more units, you'd much prefer the upgrade. Take for example, in the extreme case - if you have one zealot, getting +1 damage is much worse than getting an extra zealot.
What I'm saying is that you want the upgrades ready for when you finally begin teching to mothership since once you do you'll have no resources to spare and your unit count will drop. Then once you start constructing your mothership you'll want to funnel all resources into units to prepare for the inevitable huge push. Which means if the other person went let's say Blink Stalkers and has upgrades he'll kill your mothership faster and then be able to reinforce and slowy push you back if not wipe your army and because of the long build time you'll have to rely on your 0/0/0 units as compared to his 1/1/0 or 2/2/0 units, which means you lose.
Add on to that he'll most likely have more unit producing structures so it just is terribly bad for you if you just tech'd that hard and the mothership dies and you're left with ~5 gateways of 0/0/0 against his ~9 gateways and upgrades.
Besides all that, a big part is you'll be getting the mothership late in the game a Protoss army hits a cap at which it stops being better to have more units and becomes better to have upgrades.
Taking into consideration that 2on2´s mostly get you hard cheese, (TZ with reaper speedlings ie) you will possibly not very often be able to build a MS. But if you got a PP combo which both Turtle it might get interesting i guess. Dual Mass Voids with MS?!
on the contrary, I find with team games you get to play longer games than in 1v1's, although rushes are popular. Also depends on the map too.
I don;t reccomend mass voids. void rays are a HARASSING unit. If you are winning through mass voids your opponent is incompetent and you were going to win no matter what you did. best pp combo are things like double 4 warpgate or one guy goes carriers and the other goes collosi if it gets to late game (accompanied of course with stalkers and mothership).
Please dont ever talk again. Void rays rape everything once they get charged up. Everything.
If you have 20 void rays your opponent can't leave his base. He can't expand. He can't do anything but turret up, sit there, and wait to die.
If you run them head on into a battle uncharged against mass hydra of course they get raped. Are you even thinking about what you're saying? Why on earth would you do that?
Its like you just said Banelings suck against MMM because they hit maraders. God forbid you have to actually do something other than 1-a your void rays to make them effective.
Are you kidding me? Open ground is where void rays are weakest!
With 20 void rays your opponent might not leave his base but that is purely due to psychological reasons, ie how scary void rays are. All he has to do is engage the void rays with his army.
If your opponent has been keeping up with you on the macro then he will have ~5000 minerals ~3000 gas worth of units to throw at it and at you. That is more than enough marines/hydras/blink stalkers to take down uncharged voids which will never charge up because there is nothing that will survive their cumulative 6 damage per attack.
Of course this raises the question as to how on earth he let you get 20 void rays in the first place...
Anyway this is a mothership thread so I'l leave it at that. In the meantime feel free to flame me via pm instead.
I'm collecting as many mothership replays as I can, but I played a PvP against Nirvana yesterday (#1 on SEA ladder) and practically had the game won (I had an expansion up and I had just killed his expansion). I decided to tech Mothership instead of Colossus (we both played 4gate openings) and he ended up crushing me. He did hit me at a really good timing to kill my expo and he had excellent obs positioning, but it did tell me that you absolutely need a lot of phoenix (and probably some immortals) if you want to play a colossus free-midgame. Otherwise, Motherships complement Colossus really well - but you need to have the Colossus first.
I've been doing mothership-centric pvp builds for the past week and while it's a cute way to win a game where I'm already ahead, I haven't had any success coming from behind, and often it doesn't seem like I'm really getting much of an advantage in even games either.
Quick rundown of my most recently refined mothership build:
2 gates 1 stargate 3rd gate pressure with stalker/zealot/phoenix take my natural Fleet beacon mothership robo + immortals try to engage with immortal/gateway/phoenix/mothership
I've found in many cases I lose map control around when I start my fleet beacon. His army is just simply bigger than mine, he takes a 3rd, or gets collossus. When we engage, I gain a small advantage with the cloak for about 10 seconds, but the armies are just not comparable and he usually destroys my whole army and then rolls into my base.
Should I be trying to get collossus and immortals before I make the mothership? Should I try to take a 3rd earlier? Am I using the mothership wrong?
I've used the mothership after 1 satured expos or my 2nd expo. You simply can't rush to air reliably, but if you can hold off a colossi push, as a mothership costs 3 colossi essentially, you can insta-GG with vortext push.
Sometimes good threads just need some lovin'. Time to bring this back. So, 1.Does it still work? 2.Is it still fun? 3.Other thoughts? Always fun to see these sort of strategies as a zerg player, wish I could see pros start doing this.
I actually got beat by this yesterday in PvP. We both had huge armies with 5+ colossi in the mix, then he vortexed half of my army. I instinctively led my other half of my army in the vortex, but little did I know that my army would become a tiny clump after the vortex ended, and my army got killed instantly by the colossus splash dmg...
Doing mothership against 1 base collosus allin beats it, from my few times trying it. You won't be able to kill him, but you could wittle down his collosus numbers and get an expansion.
On October 12 2010 16:57 Roaming wrote: If you have 20 void rays your opponent can't leave his base. He can't expand. He can't do anything but turret up, sit there, and wait to die.
If you run them head on into a battle uncharged against mass hydra of course they get raped. Are you even thinking about what you're saying? Why on earth would you do that?
Its like you just said Banelings suck against MMM because they hit maraders. God forbid you have to actually do something other than 1-a your void rays to make them effective.
Quit being a n00b. Noone will ever get to 20 void rays in a 1 v 1 unless both players are fairly incompetent. If you make voids your entire army, then your opponent will have about 100-150 normal army, about 5 minutes sooner. And he'll just push your base, make your small void army engage, and just rape them. The massive dps of most ground AA units just rips voids to shreds. If you go with voids + normal army, you'll still lose because then you'll only have a few voids, and they won't make a big enough difference in a fight. Sure, 20 voids vs most comparable size armies will do fine, but the problem is getting there. Here is how a 20 void game will play out. He scouts your stargates, he builds about 3 cannons in his base, masses stalkers, and just straight out caves your base in around the 10 minute mark. In team games, massing voids works because many times you can get left alone long enough to get a critical void ray mass up. But when all someone has to worry/scout/harrass in you, then some builds just don't work.
On November 28 2010 12:57 Pandain wrote: Sometimes good threads just need some lovin'. Time to bring this back. So, 1.Does it still work?
Mothership midgames work and are definitely viable. Without a doubt the best complement to a Colossus army. A Mothership rush probably isn't viable anymore, too many builds beat it because of the massive timing window. Definitely need some more support for the mothership before building it.
2.Is it still fun?
Motherships are always fun
3.Other thoughts?
Always use hotkey your mothership to a different hotkey and make them move using patrol. The reason for this is that a) grouping it with your units means casting FF/guardian shield becomes a pain (not a major issue though in PvP, moreso in other MUs) b) Making them patrol means they never decelerate, and Motherships actually move at a decent rate once they're moving at full speed... their acceleration however is abysmal and if it stops moving in a bad place it's effectively dead
The only game I lost going Mothership that went long was against Pinder and even then I made some terrible micro mistakes with my mothership (letting it decelerate for one..)
Force fields can be a good complement to Mothership play. Typically a player will try throwing air and ground units to shoot the mothership down, but with some FF action you can keep ground units at bay. This will allow your colossus/stalker/VR ball to crush ground units with impunity, or give time to deal with the air threat first. FFs are also very good for splitting an army or setting units up for a vortex.
Don't forget to take advantage of high ground! Most maps have key locations where you can hide your mothership away from ground forces. Cliffs also provide ideal escape routes from ground based AA.
Axslav is/was a top 10 NA player. I see him use mothership a lot (and win with it). Of course, the fact that it is posted online means someone thought it was cool (and wouldnt think losing with it is cool).
Combining Motherships vortex with colossas is a very deadly combo.
kinda makes me think of guinea pig and hongun in gsl3. personally i never go for stargate tech, as Im way too scared of DTs, and some kind of protoss 1/1/1 build seems kind of weak, even though I've heard a fair amount of theorycrafting about it. I assume you go for immortals (and one or two obs) on 1 base, phoenix on 2, and collosi on 3 bases?
I think that the PvZ options of the mothership is hard with corruptors and overseers. corrupors will rape the mobo (20dmg to massive) and overseer are armored and have lots of health and 1 armor or the killing them with phenioxes is hard. Also corruptors do pretty well vs pheniox.
However a more stalker heavy army to kill the overseer (its quite big and can be focused fired more easly that an obs). I would like to see blink stalkers + mothership. In big enouth numbers stalker can beat lings but mainly blink stalkers are good vs any air like corrupots or overseers, also blick micro with a mobo would be very good imo - becasue instead of blinking the weak stalkers back you could blink them under the moyhership so they are cloacked and as long as the overseer was focussed fired then it will be ok.
However there are weaknesses and it is quite mirco intensive but i think it could mabye work. However im not a very good player (high plat) and i play zerg - so im just makeing up a theroy here but it seams like it could work. (mabye) Also I would like to se a day[9] daily on this - just imagine it.
For fun I mothershipped a 2000 diamond Protoss. He just slipped his entire force into there... since I had motherships I couldn't really afford Colossi or something that could deal enough splash damage to punish him for entering the vortex.
But once I did get Colossi / Archons (I had him completely outmacroed him at this point) the splash crushed the clumped units. It can be useful, but I woudn't rush to it.
As for the uses of the mothership, the abilities seem to be more apt to being able to hold a 4th base or to better secure a third while a fourth is going up. or also to use recall in a harass manner as kiwikaki does extremely well in the game above.
any thoughts on offensive mothership vs. defensive mothership?
defensively, i think its more useful; vortex is an un-counterable forcefield, basically. equally capable of effing yourself or others. recall can be used defensively as well, imagine being caught out of position and instantly rectifying that at a critical expansion
i think the mothership needs a speed buff or you need to be able to create more than one in order for it to be consistently useful in games offensively. the arbiter had pretty good speed .. . also being able to create only one, there's no reverse mobility (i.e. you cant bring entire armies and then bring them back) as with arbiters, which hinders the already hindered mobility.
EPT
adorable staff member though), Saracen (Zerg on NA, top 100) infinity21 (top 100 Terran on NA) and Corinthos (another good Terran on NA). Occasionally I get games with better players like Naruto (who is awesome) and I bounce ideas off of Nazgul and Jinro occasionally.![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/mothership1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/mothership2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/mothership3.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/mothership4.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/mothership5.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/mothership6.jpg)
I love it when people make the effort to try out their ideas and it plays out. Since most people most likely haven't dealt with this, there's a good chance it will surprise them, and forces them to panic.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152750.jpg)
