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Just had two games vs the same 1500pts Protoss on Euro. Game #1 I got an early advantage since I abused MAP AWARENESS on shakuras and mothership carried the win back home easily.
Game #2 I got raped on jungle basin after him failing at proxy voidrays, then expanding quicker, me failing a small backstab and then him playing solid vs my two motherships total.
Issues I've run into:
A: Blink stalkers. Blinks in, snipes mothership. Probably wouldn't have happened if I didn't get an early disadvantage.
B: Phoenixes shooting Collossi instead of obs. In both games I had to manually snipe it. Once they are sniped his higher unitcount won the fight in game #2. 
If anyone is interested I'll upload the replays somewhere, they mostly show that I'm awesome at scouting and that disappearing probes cause me to run all over the fucking map. =P
Did you try getting observer speed to make the sniping easier?
Whoever said that upgrades are important when playing with a mothership... no way. I used to play with being as mobile as possible and getting the upgrade advantage, no way I have the gas for that with the mothership/stalkers only.
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On October 07 2010 18:55 FetTerBender wrote:
Taking into consideration that 2on2´s mostly get you hard cheese, (TZ with reaper speedlings ie) you will possibly not very often be able to build a MS. But if you got a PP combo which both Turtle it might get interesting i guess. Dual Mass Voids with MS?!
on the contrary, I find with team games you get to play longer games than in 1v1's, although rushes are popular. Also depends on the map too.
I don;t reccomend mass voids. void rays are a HARASSING unit. If you are winning through mass voids your opponent is incompetent and you were going to win no matter what you did. best pp combo are things like double 4 warpgate or one guy goes carriers and the other goes collosi if it gets to late game (accompanied of course with stalkers and mothership).
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On October 11 2010 18:43 r.Evo wrote:Whoever said that upgrades are important when playing with a mothership... no way. I used to play with being as mobile as possible and getting the upgrade advantage, no way I have the gas for that with the mothership/stalkers only.
That'd be me, even if you're pumping out Stalkers constantly you can still work in a 100min/100gas weapon upgrade, and then as you get your second it'd be easier to work in the second weapon upgrade, then on your third easy to work in the third. The thing is since you'll no matter what have fewer units once your mothership is out you want the units you do have to be as effective as possible. So since in the beginning of the game you won't be rushing for mothership (otherwise you just flat out lose) the upgrades will benefit you when you transition and need to hold with a bit less then what you'd normally have.
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On October 12 2010 03:47 Aeruthus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 18:43 r.Evo wrote:Whoever said that upgrades are important when playing with a mothership... no way. I used to play with being as mobile as possible and getting the upgrade advantage, no way I have the gas for that with the mothership/stalkers only. That'd be me, even if you're pumping out Stalkers constantly you can still work in a 100min/100gas weapon upgrade, and then as you get your second it'd be easier to work in the second weapon upgrade, then on your third easy to work in the third. The thing is since you'll no matter what have fewer units once your mothership is out you want the units you do have to be as effective as possible. So since in the beginning of the game you won't be rushing for mothership (otherwise you just flat out lose) the upgrades will benefit you when you transition and need to hold with a bit less then what you'd normally have.
That logic doesn't make sense to me. If you have fewer units, one more unit makes more of a difference than an upgrade. If you have more units, you'd much prefer the upgrade. Take for example, in the extreme case - if you have one zealot, getting +1 damage is much worse than getting an extra zealot.
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On October 12 2010 06:28 Hold-Lurker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:47 Aeruthus wrote:On October 11 2010 18:43 r.Evo wrote:Whoever said that upgrades are important when playing with a mothership... no way. I used to play with being as mobile as possible and getting the upgrade advantage, no way I have the gas for that with the mothership/stalkers only. That'd be me, even if you're pumping out Stalkers constantly you can still work in a 100min/100gas weapon upgrade, and then as you get your second it'd be easier to work in the second weapon upgrade, then on your third easy to work in the third. The thing is since you'll no matter what have fewer units once your mothership is out you want the units you do have to be as effective as possible. So since in the beginning of the game you won't be rushing for mothership (otherwise you just flat out lose) the upgrades will benefit you when you transition and need to hold with a bit less then what you'd normally have. That logic doesn't make sense to me. If you have fewer units, one more unit makes more of a difference than an upgrade. If you have more units, you'd much prefer the upgrade. Take for example, in the extreme case - if you have one zealot, getting +1 damage is much worse than getting an extra zealot.
What I'm saying is that you want the upgrades ready for when you finally begin teching to mothership since once you do you'll have no resources to spare and your unit count will drop. Then once you start constructing your mothership you'll want to funnel all resources into units to prepare for the inevitable huge push. Which means if the other person went let's say Blink Stalkers and has upgrades he'll kill your mothership faster and then be able to reinforce and slowy push you back if not wipe your army and because of the long build time you'll have to rely on your 0/0/0 units as compared to his 1/1/0 or 2/2/0 units, which means you lose.
Add on to that he'll most likely have more unit producing structures so it just is terribly bad for you if you just tech'd that hard and the mothership dies and you're left with ~5 gateways of 0/0/0 against his ~9 gateways and upgrades.
Besides all that, a big part is you'll be getting the mothership late in the game a Protoss army hits a cap at which it stops being better to have more units and becomes better to have upgrades.
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On October 11 2010 21:55 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:55 FetTerBender wrote:
Taking into consideration that 2on2´s mostly get you hard cheese, (TZ with reaper speedlings ie) you will possibly not very often be able to build a MS. But if you got a PP combo which both Turtle it might get interesting i guess. Dual Mass Voids with MS?! on the contrary, I find with team games you get to play longer games than in 1v1's, although rushes are popular. Also depends on the map too. I don;t reccomend mass voids. void rays are a HARASSING unit. If you are winning through mass voids your opponent is incompetent and you were going to win no matter what you did. best pp combo are things like double 4 warpgate or one guy goes carriers and the other goes collosi if it gets to late game (accompanied of course with stalkers and mothership).
Please dont ever talk again. Void rays rape everything once they get charged up. Everything.
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On October 12 2010 10:17 Roaming wrote:
Please dont ever talk again. Void rays rape everything once they get charged up. Everything.
Oh of course they rape everything once they are fully charged, but do you know how hard it is to keep 20 void rays fully charged?
It is nigh impossible. Mass marines with stim and mass hydralisks completely decimate them because they never all get charged even when you try.
Believe me I have tried.
And it is obvious when a player is going mass voids, in fact it is very hard to miss and therefore easy to counter.
Now please don't patronise me again. I may be new to the forum, but that is no reason for bad manners or labelling me as a "noob".
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If you have 20 void rays your opponent can't leave his base. He can't expand. He can't do anything but turret up, sit there, and wait to die.
If you run them head on into a battle uncharged against mass hydra of course they get raped. Are you even thinking about what you're saying? Why on earth would you do that?
Its like you just said Banelings suck against MMM because they hit maraders. God forbid you have to actually do something other than 1-a your void rays to make them effective.
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Are you kidding me? Open ground is where void rays are weakest!
With 20 void rays your opponent might not leave his base but that is purely due to psychological reasons, ie how scary void rays are. All he has to do is engage the void rays with his army.
If your opponent has been keeping up with you on the macro then he will have ~5000 minerals ~3000 gas worth of units to throw at it and at you. That is more than enough marines/hydras/blink stalkers to take down uncharged voids which will never charge up because there is nothing that will survive their cumulative 6 damage per attack.
Of course this raises the question as to how on earth he let you get 20 void rays in the first place...
Anyway this is a mothership thread so I'l leave it at that. In the meantime feel free to flame me via pm instead.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I'm collecting as many mothership replays as I can, but I played a PvP against Nirvana yesterday (#1 on SEA ladder) and practically had the game won (I had an expansion up and I had just killed his expansion). I decided to tech Mothership instead of Colossus (we both played 4gate openings) and he ended up crushing me. He did hit me at a really good timing to kill my expo and he had excellent obs positioning, but it did tell me that you absolutely need a lot of phoenix (and probably some immortals) if you want to play a colossus free-midgame. Otherwise, Motherships complement Colossus really well - but you need to have the Colossus first.
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Plexa, can you be more specific with this build?
I've been doing mothership-centric pvp builds for the past week and while it's a cute way to win a game where I'm already ahead, I haven't had any success coming from behind, and often it doesn't seem like I'm really getting much of an advantage in even games either.
Quick rundown of my most recently refined mothership build:
2 gates
1 stargate
3rd gate
pressure with stalker/zealot/phoenix
take my natural
Fleet beacon
mothership
robo + immortals
try to engage with immortal/gateway/phoenix/mothership
I've found in many cases I lose map control around when I start my fleet beacon. His army is just simply bigger than mine, he takes a 3rd, or gets collossus. When we engage, I gain a small advantage with the cloak for about 10 seconds, but the armies are just not comparable and he usually destroys my whole army and then rolls into my base.
Should I be trying to get collossus and immortals before I make the mothership? Should I try to take a 3rd earlier? Am I using the mothership wrong?
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Going straight for mothership beats someone who goes straight for carriers.
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he said before that this is a mid game transfer. use your normal opening then do this when it is a good time. you decide when a good time is.
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I've used the mothership after 1 satured expos or my 2nd expo. You simply can't rush to air reliably, but if you can hold off a colossi push, as a mothership costs 3 colossi essentially, you can insta-GG with vortext push.
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Sometimes good threads just need some lovin'.
Time to bring this back.
So,
1.Does it still work?
2.Is it still fun?
3.Other thoughts?
Always fun to see these sort of strategies as a zerg player, wish I could see pros start doing this.
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I actually got beat by this yesterday in PvP. We both had huge armies with 5+ colossi in the mix, then he vortexed half of my army. I instinctively led my other half of my army in the vortex, but little did I know that my army would become a tiny clump after the vortex ended, and my army got killed instantly by the colossus splash dmg...
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Quick question for Plexa, apologies if it was answered already.
Do you find your probe count suffering when going for Motherships? That is really one of the bigger concerns I have going for this build.
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Doing mothership against 1 base collosus allin beats it, from my few times trying it. You won't be able to kill him, but you could wittle down his collosus numbers and get an expansion.
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Do motherships have detection? Or do you have to get a obs to see his obs?
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EPT
