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On October 03 2010 09:25 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 09:21 peckham33 wrote:On October 03 2010 04:25 Plexa wrote:
If you're rushing Mothership off of one base then you're probably going to die because you dont have any units etc. The mothership tech + mothership, like I said in the post, costs about the same as colossus + range + tech, so you do need to rely on him making that investment since mothership leaves you with a gaping timing window. It's a lot safer to tech mothership in the mid game.
was the same cost part in gas,minerals,time,space,and supply? Mothership (400/400) + Fleet Beacon (300/200) + Stargate (150/150) = 850/700 vs Colossus (300/200) + Robotics Bay (200/200) + Range (200/200) + Robotics Facility (200/100) = 900/700 Timing wise pretty sure the Colossus comes out faster since a Mothership takes 160 time to build, while Colossus takes 75 
you missed space and supply. By time i meant all the things including production facilities, research(which i know can overlap), and unit production. i do recognize that you are starting this at where the two separate from the shared path and are also assuming you have enough pylon coverage already from keeping supply up. i am fine with that
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After reading this thread I could not help but elevate this into some 2v2 ideas. Vortex + Well-timed nuke anyone?
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Not only would mothership use be awesome in PvP or any matchup for that matter.. but there is a 50/50 chance that with all the cloaked units and the mothership flying around, it may lag the other player so hard they'll mismicro something while you just run over them!
-- Win/Win situation in my honest opinion. 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
vs Tenpointfive - 1500~ protoss on euro.
I open dual 10 gate since the game before he tried to 4warpgate rush me (and he died) so I thought I'd cheese him back this game. Turns out that he doesn't die, and some miracle stalkers keep him in the game. Then we're at a deadlock, as is usual in PvP, since neither one of us can break each others ramp since we have FF. Thus, War of the Worlds commences and we start making Colossus. Then I fuck up something terrible and lose my first Colossus and fall behind in army. With nothing to lose, I go "fuck it" and strive for mothership. In the decisive battle, phoenix do their job sniping the observer amongst all the madness and the game is mine.
Funny how it doesn't matter if your 1000minerals behind in army when you have a mothership.
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nice, nice. Seems like a really strong build in theory just because of how much vortex owns. I may try this instead of my usual voidray switch in pvp
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I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo.
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Nooooooo please don't encourage people to use a unit that nets me free wins 
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Plexa, instead of time after time of rebuilding that mothership, why don't you transition into carriers?
You can't be too greedy and have BOTH in a reasonable timespawn- but cmon the time/gas required to get FOUR motherships total out in a game is the same amount of resources that could be used to get an insurmountable amount of carriers- which I think are an even more underused unit.
Or how about this:I recently saw a day9 daily that make me wonder-
I'm neither a protoss nor a diamond player, so please take this out for a whirl-
One base carrier rush into mothership
Tech straight into carriers, and then try to swarm his normal colo tech, or phoenixes, basically a lot of the protoss units minus stalkers.
After the carrier, expand, and now you have a reasonable income to get motherships- plus mothership transitions PERFECTLY out of carrier rush (fleet beacon already down)
There is this one game where I faced a turtling protoss who went mothership/mass carriers, I just sniped the mothership though and was able to deal with the carriers afterwards, but it did heavily dent my entire army.
This would mean skipping colo tech completely however, but obviously colos can't attack air so it might make you win lol.
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On October 04 2010 06:57 Zvendetta wrote:
Plexa, instead of time after time of rebuilding that mothership, why don't you transition into carriers?
You can't be too greedy and have BOTH in a reasonable timespawn- but cmon the time/gas required to get FOUR motherships total out in a game is the same amount of resources that could be used to get an insurmountable amount of carriers- which I think are an even more underused unit.
Or how about this:I recently saw a day9 daily that make me wonder-
I'm neither a protoss nor a diamond player, so please take this out for a whirl-
One base carrier rush into mothership
Tech straight into carriers, and then try to swarm his normal robo/gateway tech- (essentially anything but mass phoenix or mass stalker)
After the carrier, expand, and now you have a reasonable income to get motherships- plus mothership transitions PERFECTLY out of carrier rush (fleet beacon already down)
There is this one game where I faced a turtling protoss who went mothership/mass carriers, I just sniped the mothership though and was able to deal with the carriers afterwards, but it did heavily dent my entire army.
This would mean skipping colo tech completely however, but obviously colos can't attack air so it might make you win lol.
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On October 04 2010 06:59 Zvendetta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 06:57 Zvendetta wrote:
Plexa, instead of time after time of rebuilding that mothership, why don't you transition into carriers?
You can't be too greedy and have BOTH in a reasonable timespawn- but cmon the time/gas required to get FOUR motherships total out in a game is the same amount of resources that could be used to get an insurmountable amount of carriers- which I think are an even more underused unit.
Or how about this:I recently saw a day9 daily that make me wonder-
I'm neither a protoss nor a diamond player, so please take this out for a whirl-
One base carrier rush into mothership
Tech straight into carriers, and then try to swarm his normal robo/gateway tech- (essentially anything but mass phoenix or mass stalker)
After the carrier, expand, and now you have a reasonable income to get motherships- plus mothership transitions PERFECTLY out of carrier rush (fleet beacon already down)
There is this one game where I faced a turtling protoss who went mothership/mass carriers, I just sniped the mothership though and was able to deal with the carriers afterwards, but it did heavily dent my entire army.
This would mean skipping colo tech completely however, but obviously colos can't attack air so it might make you win lol.
most useless post ever!! it would be better if you put a peiod as the whole post.
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On October 03 2010 15:57 Plexa wrote:vs Tenpointfive - 1500~ protoss on euro. I open dual 10 gate since the game before he tried to 4warpgate rush me (and he died) so I thought I'd cheese him back this game. Turns out that he doesn't die, and some miracle stalkers keep him in the game. Then we're at a deadlock, as is usual in PvP, since neither one of us can break each others ramp since we have FF. Thus, War of the Worlds commences and we start making Colossus. Then I fuck up something terrible and lose my first Colossus and fall behind in army. With nothing to lose, I go "fuck it" and strive for mothership. In the decisive battle, phoenix do their job sniping the observer amongst all the madness and the game is mine. Funny how it doesn't matter if your 1000minerals behind in army when you have a mothership.
Totally, any amount of gateway units doesn't play any role when you vortex half their collolus. Or if you snipe their obs lolol.
On October 04 2010 06:57 Zvendetta wrote:
Plexa, instead of time after time of rebuilding that mothership, why don't you transition into carriers?
I think, you go for a mothership because 1 mothership has a much larger upfront impact, than trickling out carriers.
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I actually did a silly game but quite similars to yours today, where my opponent did a 4gate mass stalkers, but I decided that let's screw that, let's do a forge and FE! So I did. I evolved my 1gate into 4gate, spammed a decently balanced army, got out 6-8 phoenix (because they are just so powerful against a stalker heavy army) and then I decided that, what the heck, let's do a mothership because I got the income for it. The mothership made me push well into my oppponent's nat, but I micro'd poorly and I lost it to the stalker blink (I vortex'd, but the stalkers blinked away just before the vortex got cast). Then I never really got back into the game, but I think my BO could be tweaked and work even against a 4gate mass stalkers, given the opponent does not play aggressively, but even if the opponent does, phoenix + 3gate should work to defend that.
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What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
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^Rofl. that would be hilarious, though admittedly, it'd come down to who had more stalkers.
With recent games, I've found VR's go well with the Mothership too. You have time to charge your VR's, and they are protected from target fire. food for thought.
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On October 04 2010 09:22 Mr.Minionman wrote:
^Rofl. that would be hilarious, though admittedly, it'd come down to who had more stalkers.
With recent games, I've found VR's go well with the Mothership too. You have time to charge your VR's, and they are protected from target fire. food for thought.
I think I could definitely have managed that game, would there have been some VR and less of my own stalkers, since fully charged VR just eat stalkers for breakfast, and there's plenty of opportunity to charge them when they are hidden under a mothership.
I would like to try it some more, however, it is very costly and I doubt it's a good opener... but it could work if you start with either a 3gate + stargate and then develop it to 2-3 stargate + fleet beacon in mid- to late game. I imagine the army would look something like chargelots, phoenix, VR + mothership. The reason why I would like phoenix in the army is because I'm a phoenix whore, no kidding. But mostly, I have really started to like to go phoenix vs stalkers. Now, if Blizz could just fix that stupid graviton beam bug, I would be even happier.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote:
I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo. 1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations
2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact.
3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though
4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me
How well do you understand PvP??
On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote:
What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death.
Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
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Well, I too have finally had it with 4wg/Colossus n+1 battles, so I decided to do some carrier rushes tonight. Its pretty OK if you can hold your ramp. The first carrier comes out right around when your unable to take any more, and then it goes on and saves you from the push. Grabbing a MS afterwords is the easiest thing ever, and they really are amazing in PvP battles. You could tryyyy to go straight for MS I guess, but I think the build times and money required would get you killed before it comes out.
Great strategy plexa, MS in PvP actually makes the matchup somewhat tolerable!
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On October 04 2010 12:18 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote:
I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo. 1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me How well do you understand PvP?? Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote:
What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death. Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying.
Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map.
Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers.
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United States239 Posts
On October 05 2010 14:33 AzureD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 12:18 Plexa wrote:On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote:
I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo. 1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me How well do you understand PvP?? On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote:
What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death. Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying. Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map. Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers.
I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement.
You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible.
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On October 05 2010 15:35 Roaming wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 14:33 AzureD wrote:On October 04 2010 12:18 Plexa wrote:On October 04 2010 05:35 AzureD wrote:
I find there is a serious weakness in this sort of play. You are extremely vulnerable due to lack of mobility. Enemy player can just expand and use drops or VR against you to keep you in your base.
4 Gate will also probably kill you.
There just seems to be too many weaknesses in it so I can only see this being useful as a surprise tactic. Not good as standard play imo. 1) Lack of mobility doesn't matter when I can stomp their main and their army if they attack, mrmonion also demonstrated how mass recall can be used to win the base trade situations 2) Mass expanding is bad in PvP, and you will die. Fact. 3) Using VR against me is fine, I think mothership fares well enough against it - not sure though 4) Drops in PvP are underused, but if they're doing that they're not making colossus which is good for me How well do you understand PvP?? On October 04 2010 09:18 TedJustice wrote:
What if your opponent did the same thing? It would be kind of embarrassing if both of you sniped each other's observers and two motherships were left to slap each other to death. Yeah I dont know. Probably will be a spamming phoenix/observer battle since whoever has observers left will win the fight. Given their immobility, it would probably just be one massive battle - unless a ninja vortex can save the losing player from dying. Lack of mobility does not matter? You realize how slow the Mothership is? I can go into your base kill half of it and come back and join with my army before you get halfway across the map. Who said mass expanding? Just need 1 expansion more than you and you can't punish me for it because you are teching to Mothership. I must be the only person to use a double Immortal Warp Prism drop with 3 Zealots warped in. Although I am pretty sure I have seen it before. It is primarily used to kill critical buildings rather than workers. I gotta disagree. A lot of the game is spent with the agressive player 'pushing' so to speak. If you're in my face when the mother ship pops, army is basically together. If im in your face when mothership pops, as i retreat the mother ship will be a super powered reinforcement. You're vastly underestimating the fact that a mothership basically makes your army invincible.
Well the way I see it is that you are doing the Protoss version of the tank push. Probably works much better on smaller maps if you can get away with it.
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EPT
