EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 438
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On December 09 2012 12:18 Mavvie wrote: ^ I recommend about 8-10 hydras, as many infestors as possible (make sure that you only get them when it's safe), and the rest of supply to roaches. So it'll average about 3 roaches : 1 hydra : 1 infestor. I would actually say much more hydras that that, its harder to move around position wise, but if you were watch NASL Sortof was making a ton of hydras in his 3-0 or hyun | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 09 2012 11:52 Geo3 wrote: What is the ideal ratio of roach to hydra in zvz when both going roach hydra infestors. Depends if you want to hold a particular choke point or you want to be aggressive. I usually mix in hydras later than my opponent and use either drop or nydus (I'm assuming you're talking late game). Usually you can add some around 120ish to 140ish supply if you're already well defended (some spines and infestor energy) and have equal amounts of bases. If you want to max out and push, like one big push, high hydra count is good, but if you want to harass and attack everywhere (which is my style zvz) you don't have to mix a lot of hydras or none at all until later on. When you have an incredible economy you can pump a lot of hydras to seal the deal. So yeah there's no easy answer i feel like... Depends on situation, hydras are really good at being spread out behind a wall of spines and roaches (let's say on antiga) If you're behind and you know you can't push out to punish his fourth, you can just max out on a more powerful army and hope for the best. Hydras can't retreat of creep, so they're a big commitment XD. Hf gl ~ | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States322 Posts
I have literally won a single game vs Protoss in the last month on ladder. Question: Should I just six pool Protoss every time? I think I would win more often. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 09 2012 13:08 Falcon-sw wrote: I am abysmal against Protoss. It doesn't matter what they do... two gate zealot pressure, colossus builds, blink stalker builds, sentry/immortal, six gate... I just die every time. I have literally won a single game vs Protoss in the last month on ladder. Question: Should I just six pool Protoss every time? I think I would win more often. lol Answer : Maybe you win more often but you wouldn't get better. One thing that helped me lonnnnnnnnnnng ago vs protoss was something Ret said on his stream once. Against protoss, he always scouted very diligently and tried to hard counter what he scouted. Protoss going blink? Ling with double evo and infestors (same vs immo / sentry can be said but mix in only a few roaches too to shout over bad ff.) Protoss goes stargate? build a lot of spores and go infestors / queen then transition. You have to react to what protoss is doing most of the time. Gl ~ | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On December 09 2012 12:50 Moosegills wrote: I would actually say much more hydras that that, its harder to move around position wise, but if you were watch NASL Sortof was making a ton of hydras in his 3-0 or hyun Right yeah, I mean everyone has their different preferences. Some players go past 30, some don't make any. It just depends on how you use it. I have a lot of success with positional wars using ~10-14 hydras, but some of my higher ranked friends say never more than 8, so really there isn't any "perfect" ratio. | ||
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
In ZvT, should I build Infestors before Hive Tech or 8-10 Infestor with Ling/Bane maxout before teching to Hive? | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 09 2012 15:15 raybasto wrote: Whats the best (and safest) way to tech to Broodlord/Infestor in ZvP? Mass Spines or Max Ling/Roach and threaten a counter when he moves out? How many is enough spines per base? Should I upgrade Lair to Hive once my Pathagen Glands is done and build Infestors while my Hive is morphing or build Infestors and upgrade to Hive once I have 8-10 Infestors? In ZvT, should I build Infestors before Hive Tech or 8-10 Infestor with Ling/Bane maxout before teching to Hive? Erm, this is a REALLY broad question and any answer I give would be rather broad as well (and thusly probably not too helpful). I personally prefer using a festor/ling/roach 13 minute max with hive 15% completed and spire 10-15% completed with 5 base completed for 2 whole minutes and 10 gas already mining (at 13 minutes, your 9th and 10th gasses should have about 120 gas mined from them both if you did it all right) vs 3 base lategame-oriented P builds. Its really powerful for keeping a P in his base while you just build a big bank and remax on like, pure freaking BL. All you have to do is preserve the infestors which is pretty easy since you should have burrow done as well. Spines used to be the way when we weren't facing refined pre-hive Protoss timing attacks. Now with those being very common, I found static defenses in mass only kept me in my own base until I was sure the positioning was perfect and my bases weren't going to get cracked by collossi range. I'd much rather have a big army and be really mobile with it attacking everywhere. *Edit: Didn't see the part about the ZvT* You should always be on ling/bane teching to infestors and then get infestors in mass until hive is done. I'd be very skeptical about attempting to max on ling/bane before going to hive tech. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 09 2012 15:15 raybasto wrote: Whats the best (and safest) way to tech to Broodlord/Infestor in ZvP? Mass Spines or Max Ling/Roach and threaten a counter when he moves out? How many is enough spines per base? Should I upgrade Lair to Hive once my Pathagen Glands is done and build Infestors while my Hive is morphing or build Infestors and upgrade to Hive once I have 8-10 Infestors? In ZvT, should I build Infestors before Hive Tech or 8-10 Infestor with Ling/Bane maxout before teching to Hive? Basically, in ZvP there are many phases, like in all match ups. *ALL OF THIS FROM A ZERG PERSPECTIVE* First, the "cannoning phase" or the "hatch phase". Assuming you play standard, this is when you wanna get your 3 hatches going. This is irrelevant to what you are asking but if you do have problems in this phase lmk. Secondly, there is the "p on two bases" phase. What is he going for? Quick SG, Robo play, Blink play, DTs, fast third, fast mothership (Flying in PL lol.) Let's say you're done with that phase and you held any attacks and your still in the game. Protoss drops a third nexus which brings us to; Phase three, where protoss has 3 bases secured. You could go mass roach ling and just all in, but let's say you want to play a macro game; (you could also go muta, drops, etcetc but let's assume you go infestors). He's gonna do some sort of timing from there, right? You almost never see protoss turtle to more and more bases without pushing out at some point, that would be just dumb, letting you get an unbeatable army. So you start of by identifying what exactly he's going for, just like when he's on two bases, it's as important. Some zerg try to go straight to hive and hope that protoss don't hit a crisp timing, which is a sign of a bad player in general. You should always try to defend the timing the protoss is going for unless he's powerup way too heavily and you have the time to get Broodlords quickly. Here is a small sample of a list of what protoss can do from 3 bases. - 11 gate blink stalker. Rare, but if he didn't open robo, like let's say fast 3 bases on entomb very greedily, this is deadly. I think it hits with +2, blink and a shitload of stalker. You don't want to saturate your fourth, just sac it and make spines / infestors and you should have 2 evo pumping lings upgrade. Try to get some chain fungals and force engagements near spine. This is an allin. He has nothing else going for him except good upgrades. Crush his push and therefor win the game. - Rain immortal / blink stalker on 3 bases. Very strong, hits quickly to punish greediness from zerg setting to late game, and punishes lack of lings / lings upgrade and destroys spines very cost efficiently. You need to scout this early on (a robo, no robo bay and twilight being chronoboosted are signs. high stalker count is a tell too obviously, but you need to see immortals too. Usually comes after a robo expand with observers. - Colossus play. Not too much to write about this, you get a spire, maybe mix in a few more roaches. You need to be going hive and have GS otw at some point, but it hits before. You snipe colossus with the corruptors, then morph safely BL. You need initial roaches, but don't make any after the colossus are gone. You need to rally lings to counter the probable mass stalker army. - Colossus play with Archon, charge zealot. We see this more and more often now, even sometimes without colossus which is much more rare. This, I'm not too sure. I think massing roaches while getting GS is the best way, but sometimes Protoss has residual immortals from earlier which makes this really hard to deal with. I guess maybe a few banelings might help. Basically I think you have to stall the army with fungals. I think you can manage to get Broodlords out before this push, but sometimes if you don't have enough spines protoss can still overrun you! Anyways, if there are more strategies you are having problems with you can ask here ^.^ | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On December 09 2012 13:14 Mavvie wrote: Right yeah, I mean everyone has their different preferences. Some players go past 30, some don't make any. It just depends on how you use it. I have a lot of success with positional wars using ~10-14 hydras, but some of my higher ranked friends say never more than 8, so really there isn't any "perfect" ratio. Why would anyone ever going Hydra in ZvZ ? 3 hydras is 1 infestor. I'd glady trade them any day. Thing is, especially right now, most patchzergs won't ever bother having more than 1 hotkey for ling / banes and even less for roach / hydras in order to "dodge" the FG (like i've seen a pro player even doing it... Not really, very rarely). Your friends are right, never make more than a few especially if you can easily control your army. Good concave with hydras behind roaches are good, but having an infestor behind while stutter step with roaches can perform probably better most of the time. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 09 2012 16:34 RaiZ wrote: Why would anyone ever going Hydra in ZvZ ? 3 hydras is 1 infestor. I'd glady trade them any day. Thing is, especially right now, most patchzergs won't ever bother having more than 1 hotkey for ling / banes and even less for roach / hydras in order to "dodge" the FG (like i've seen a pro player even doing it... Not really, very rarely). Your friends are right, never make more than a few especially if you can easily control your army. Good concave with hydras behind roaches are good, but having an infestor behind while stutter step with roaches can perform probably better most of the time. Many progamers go hydra in ZvZ. It's all about mobility vs bulkier, stronger army with those glass cannons hydras. Infestors are good, very good don't get me wrong, but in some situations hydras are really good for either early 200/200 3 bases push, or very late game when you have a lot of resources. Plus they cost less larvae (cost per larvea ratio) than roaches for the same supply. I think hydras can really seal the deal in many situations, and could be used more in harass situation with drops or nydus too. I'd rather drop roaches though because they're cheaper and have more hitpoints, plus the burrowed movements and regen is really good for harassement too. | ||
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tehcaekftw
Denmark138 Posts
Versus protoss, i just dont really know how useful they are anymore. ITs die quite fast, fungals have too short range and just die a lot. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 10 2012 02:31 tehcaekftw wrote: Since the infestor was nerfed, is it still viable to use as much? Im thinking in ZvT and vP mainly. Should i just keep doing ling/bling/infestor versus terran, or switch to the old ling/bling/muta build? If so, could you give me some basic timings of stuff with it? Its been to long since i've used it. Versus protoss, i just dont really know how useful they are anymore. ITs die quite fast, fungals have too short range and just die a lot. Basically you have to be way more careful with your infestors. You can't just run around the map with a group of infestors (you were never supposed to, but with the original range, you could just fungal on sight, burrow and bail out of there.) You need to be super careful with them, keep them near your army or behind spines. As in strategy wise, infestors are still viable (still the best unit we have lol) You could go muta vs protoss, I think it's not bad after seeing that game on PL versus jangbi (can't remember the zerg's name) mass muta with heavy droning can be good, but harder to pull off. Versus terran, muta ling bling is always viable, but you need to transition because there's no way you can break a terran on three bases with tanks and a nice sim city. To answer the question, yes they are viable as much as they were. We need infestors otherwise we're back in 2011 where zergs can't win unless we have a huge econ lead. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On December 10 2012 02:31 tehcaekftw wrote: Since the infestor was nerfed, is it still viable to use as much? Im thinking in ZvT and vP mainly. Should i just keep doing ling/bling/infestor versus terran, or switch to the old ling/bling/muta build? If so, could you give me some basic timings of stuff with it? Its been to long since i've used it. Versus protoss, i just dont really know how useful they are anymore. ITs die quite fast, fungals have too short range and just die a lot. The nerf we're talking about is one less range for FG. It doesn't really change the fact that you still have lings / roach as a meat shield in the front army. Infestors are still really really good to use. They were just simply overpowered and they still are especially against Terran. But i'm still waiting for the nerf of sentries and their stupid forcefields... Anyway, the infestors were mainly used for their infested terrans, and i'm pretty sure they're still used a lot in today's games. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On December 09 2012 16:34 RaiZ wrote: Why would anyone ever going Hydra in ZvZ ? 3 hydras is 1 infestor. I'd glady trade them any day. Thing is, especially right now, most patchzergs won't ever bother having more than 1 hotkey for ling / banes and even less for roach / hydras in order to "dodge" the FG (like i've seen a pro player even doing it... Not really, very rarely). Your friends are right, never make more than a few especially if you can easily control your army. Good concave with hydras behind roaches are good, but having an infestor behind while stutter step with roaches can perform probably better most of the time. 99% of progamers ad hydras in macro games. They have more range and dps than roaches so its pretty natural you would want them as long as they have a row of roaches to take the hits for them | ||
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Tofa
United Kingdom26 Posts
I've played 14 games today on ranked (silver) and only won 3, I got promoted to silver on my 2nd win today but this losing streak is just grueling and very disheartening. I feel like the only way I can win is if I cheese as it doesnt matter how ahead I am I get crushed easily. I start almost all my games 14 pool then 14 hatch and get 2 gases at 6 minutes then get lair after that but from then on I just dunno what to do. I have a hard time breaking turtlers and I haven't got much experience with tier 3, I tend to stick around tier 1/2 roach hydra go for upgrades max out and then proceed to watch my army melt against MMM I've tried experimenting with swarm hosts and mutalisks a bit with little success and don't feel like I have the control to manage an army and ability based units like infestors vipers at the same time. Any help is greatly appreciated, I love playing starcraft 2 but today i feel like the game just stomped me hard. Here's an embarrassing recent replay http://drop.sc/283083 My decision making is probably my biggest fault ^ | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 09 2012 16:34 RaiZ wrote: Why would anyone ever going Hydra in ZvZ ? 3 hydras is 1 infestor. I'd glady trade them any day. Thing is, especially right now, most patchzergs won't ever bother having more than 1 hotkey for ling / banes and even less for roach / hydras in order to "dodge" the FG (like i've seen a pro player even doing it... Not really, very rarely). Your friends are right, never make more than a few especially if you can easily control your army. Good concave with hydras behind roaches are good, but having an infestor behind while stutter step with roaches can perform probably better most of the time. What roach/hydra/infestor will crush roach/infestor most of the time unless the roach/hydra/infestor player engages in a really really bad spot. If you watched the last GSL finals you would notice this to that roach/hydra/viper just crushes roach/infestor. The one time roach/infestor beat roach/hydra/infestor was when sniper did a full surround flank that hyun stupidly walked into. Also btw even when zerg was underpowered in 2010 and people did ling bane they still did 1 control group. Love how you put in patch zergs which is just retarded. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 10 2012 05:08 blade55555 wrote: What roach/hydra/infestor will crush roach/infestor most of the time unless the roach/hydra/infestor player engages in a really really bad spot. If you watched the last GSL finals you would notice this to that roach/hydra/viper just crushes roach/infestor. The one time roach/infestor beat roach/hydra/infestor was when sniper did a full surround flank that hyun stupidly walked into. Also btw even when zerg was underpowered in 2010 and people did ling bane they still did 1 control group. Love how you put in patch zergs which is just retarded. I'm assuming you mean roach/hydra/infestor  XDI agree though roach hydra infestor is stronger in straight up fights, but less mobile. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Question: how many banelings should I morph against a 2 base marine/tank all in, hitting ~9:00? It's like 20 marines w/ CS+stim and 3 tanks w/ siege, I open 6 queens so I can force the engage on creep, with only 2 tanks sieged. I'm thinking something like 16 banelings with a bit of a split and flank, and a bunch of lings engaging after queens draw the tank fire? Not sure what the best way to defend this is >_> Replay of what I'm talking about: http://drop.sc/280638 I open 6 queen and suspect 2 base marine/tank. I suspected correctly, made lots of ling/bane and held really easily. I then macro horribly, but he macros worse so I win with broodlord/infestor. Too many banelings I feel? Not quite sure. Do I just overwhelm it with lings? | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 10 2012 05:14 crbox wrote: I'm assuming you mean roach/hydra/infestor XDI agree though roach hydra infestor is stronger in straight up fights, but less mobile. That's why Zergs <3 creep. | ||
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