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On December 11 2012 08:49 templar rage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 22:53 RaiZ wrote:On December 10 2012 05:08 blade55555 wrote:On December 09 2012 16:34 RaiZ wrote:On December 09 2012 13:14 Mavvie wrote:On December 09 2012 12:50 Moosegills wrote:On December 09 2012 12:18 Mavvie wrote:
^ I recommend about 8-10 hydras, as many infestors as possible (make sure that you only get them when it's safe), and the rest of supply to roaches. So it'll average about 3 roaches : 1 hydra : 1 infestor. I would actually say much more hydras that that, its harder to move around position wise, but if you were watch NASL Sortof was making a ton of hydras in his 3-0 or hyun Right yeah, I mean everyone has their different preferences. Some players go past 30, some don't make any. It just depends on how you use it. I have a lot of success with positional wars using ~10-14 hydras, but some of my higher ranked friends say never more than 8, so really there isn't any "perfect" ratio. Why would anyone ever going Hydra in ZvZ ? 3 hydras is 1 infestor. I'd glady trade them any day. Thing is, especially right now, most patchzergs won't ever bother having more than 1 hotkey for ling / banes and even less for roach / hydras in order to "dodge" the FG (like i've seen a pro player even doing it... Not really, very rarely). Your friends are right, never make more than a few especially if you can easily control your army. Good concave with hydras behind roaches are good, but having an infestor behind while stutter step with roaches can perform probably better most of the time. What roach/hydra/infestor will crush roach/infestor most of the time unless the roach/hydra/infestor player engages in a really really bad spot. If you watched the last GSL finals you would notice this to that roach/hydra/viper just crushes roach/infestor. The one time roach/infestor beat roach/hydra/infestor was when sniper did a full surround flank that hyun stupidly walked into. Also btw even when zerg was underpowered in 2010 and people did ling bane they still did 1 control group. Love how you put in patch zergs which is just retarded. I don't understand why you're mentionning the 2010 year. I still see many zerg hotkeying all of their units in only 1 control group like they don't need ,ore because they "can" control them separatively with their mouse. They just don't realize how much gain they could benefit from it. Much like idra adopting stephano's egg style or even the other pros zerg (pretty sure lot of them switched). But hey, I'm a simple master zerg player. What do I know ?... I don't understand why you're trying to attribute using one control group for your army to patch zergs. Those two things have nothing to do with one another. In fact, control group/hotkey schemes have pretty much nothing to do with your skill (or perceived lackthereof in your case of patch zergs) as a player. A lot of zergs don't use multiple groups for roach/hydra. It's no big deal if you don't, since any control group/hotkey scheme is purely personal preference anyway. There is no right way to set up those things. And IDK where you got the idea that roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor, but as blade pointed out, it's just false. Roach/hydra is just a superior army composition to pure roach, and two equal armies will always result in the roach/hydra player winning unless they make a massive positional mistake.
Well, I'm sorry if that's not the definition of patchzerg. For me it means all the new zerg that has got some success as of late (i'm thinking of targa, vortix, sortof and so on...) while all they did were simply, most of the time, A-moving their broodfestors. It's great that they can still control the infestors / queen apart from the corruptors / broodlords, but thing is I can't help but think they could benefit much more by controlling them more with hotkeys.
It pisses me even more when i see some of the zerg still hotkeying lings / banes together in one hotkey in a ZvZ matchup.
About hydras / roaches, that's why i'm talking about not having too much of them. Don't get me wrong, It's a really good dps filler for the roaches, but when it comes to "perfect" army composition, I just hardly see hydra winning against infestors since you can have 1 infestor per 3 hydras ratio. When you do the math : 12 clumped hydras easily dies against 4 infestors. But hey, it never happens right ? So we have let's say we have 1 row of roach and 1 row of hydras against 1 row of roach + 4 infestors (add some lings while we're at it) battling out in the middle of the fight. Who'll win ? probably the hydra/roach's one. But the careful player had his 4 infestors back up for the next batch of roaches and can easily overun the hydra/ roach composition. This is particularly true if there is no creep. This is why i'm thinking hydras are usefull only once you've established the roaches / infestors composition first.
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Hi, silver league scrub here, trying to get back to gold where I used to be the last 3 seasons.
I used to play my ZvT and ZvP with TangSC builds: lots of pressure, but (for me) tricky to transition out of. So I decided to give the macro game a whirl.
It took me a while to get a hang of defending 3rd's, knowing when to drone, etc. But lately I managed to safely get to the infestor/broodlord stage. And there I mess up, because I lack control over that army.
I use control groups for 1) ground army, 2) infestors, 3) broodlords. And then I need to squeeze corruptors in there. One of these groups always wanders off, or lags behind :S
So my question is: how many groups (and with which units) do you use to control the broodlord army? Balance pessimists say that broodlord/infestor is fungal + a-move, but to me it feels like herding cats 
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^ I only use three hotkeys for my army, sometimes manual selection (think control+click) is necessary. In ZvT late game:
1: ling/bane, 2: broodlord+corruptor, 3: infestors. You micro the slow push by a-moving the broodlords, keep ling/bane back, and poke around with infestors to try and nab some good fungals. If he stims in, fungal everything and a move groups 1(ling/bane) and 2(corruptor/broodlord). Keep fungalling and don't let him retreat-you should win.
ZvP:
1: 3/3 cracklings+ a few roaches, 2: corruptor/broodlord, 3: infestors. Engagements in ZvP are a bit different. If you can, siege up with broodlords. Keep about 8 corruptors, and try to snipe the mothership with corruption + focus fire. Try to deny blinks with fungal, but this is unreliable. So once he blinks chain fungal EVERYTHING, 1a your cracklings, and stutter step your broodlords. Generally if you can afford it you want fewer lings and more broodfestor, but you can't always have that.
In all matchups double spire/evo are both a must. You need 3/3, crackling, and heavy air upgrades. Air carapace is usually better, but both are so, so important. My lategame improved so much once I started focusing on upgrades.
Also: if your corruptors fail to snipe mothership, try to fungal + neural! ALWAYS spam IT if he looks like he's gonna blink under; marine good unit 
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On December 11 2012 16:25 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 08:49 templar rage wrote:On December 10 2012 22:53 RaiZ wrote:On December 10 2012 05:08 blade55555 wrote:On December 09 2012 16:34 RaiZ wrote:On December 09 2012 13:14 Mavvie wrote:On December 09 2012 12:50 Moosegills wrote:On December 09 2012 12:18 Mavvie wrote:
^ I recommend about 8-10 hydras, as many infestors as possible (make sure that you only get them when it's safe), and the rest of supply to roaches. So it'll average about 3 roaches : 1 hydra : 1 infestor. I would actually say much more hydras that that, its harder to move around position wise, but if you were watch NASL Sortof was making a ton of hydras in his 3-0 or hyun Right yeah, I mean everyone has their different preferences. Some players go past 30, some don't make any. It just depends on how you use it. I have a lot of success with positional wars using ~10-14 hydras, but some of my higher ranked friends say never more than 8, so really there isn't any "perfect" ratio. Why would anyone ever going Hydra in ZvZ ? 3 hydras is 1 infestor. I'd glady trade them any day. Thing is, especially right now, most patchzergs won't ever bother having more than 1 hotkey for ling / banes and even less for roach / hydras in order to "dodge" the FG (like i've seen a pro player even doing it... Not really, very rarely). Your friends are right, never make more than a few especially if you can easily control your army. Good concave with hydras behind roaches are good, but having an infestor behind while stutter step with roaches can perform probably better most of the time. What roach/hydra/infestor will crush roach/infestor most of the time unless the roach/hydra/infestor player engages in a really really bad spot. If you watched the last GSL finals you would notice this to that roach/hydra/viper just crushes roach/infestor. The one time roach/infestor beat roach/hydra/infestor was when sniper did a full surround flank that hyun stupidly walked into. Also btw even when zerg was underpowered in 2010 and people did ling bane they still did 1 control group. Love how you put in patch zergs which is just retarded. I don't understand why you're mentionning the 2010 year. I still see many zerg hotkeying all of their units in only 1 control group like they don't need ,ore because they "can" control them separatively with their mouse. They just don't realize how much gain they could benefit from it. Much like idra adopting stephano's egg style or even the other pros zerg (pretty sure lot of them switched). But hey, I'm a simple master zerg player. What do I know ?... I don't understand why you're trying to attribute using one control group for your army to patch zergs. Those two things have nothing to do with one another. In fact, control group/hotkey schemes have pretty much nothing to do with your skill (or perceived lackthereof in your case of patch zergs) as a player. A lot of zergs don't use multiple groups for roach/hydra. It's no big deal if you don't, since any control group/hotkey scheme is purely personal preference anyway. There is no right way to set up those things. And IDK where you got the idea that roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor, but as blade pointed out, it's just false. Roach/hydra is just a superior army composition to pure roach, and two equal armies will always result in the roach/hydra player winning unless they make a massive positional mistake. Well, I'm sorry if that's not the definition of patchzerg. For me it means all the new zerg that has got some success as of late (i'm thinking of targa, vortix, sortof and so on...) while all they did were simply, most of the time, A-moving their broodfestors. It's great that they can still control the infestors / queen apart from the corruptors / broodlords, but thing is I can't help but think they could benefit much more by controlling them more with hotkeys. It pisses me even more when i see some of the zerg still hotkeying lings / banes together in one hotkey in a ZvZ matchup. About hydras / roaches, that's why i'm talking about not having too much of them. Don't get me wrong, It's a really good dps filler for the roaches, but when it comes to "perfect" army composition, I just hardly see hydra winning against infestors since you can have 1 infestor per 3 hydras ratio. When you do the math : 12 clumped hydras easily dies against 4 infestors. But hey, it never happens right ? So we have let's say we have 1 row of roach and 1 row of hydras against 1 row of roach + 4 infestors (add some lings while we're at it) battling out in the middle of the fight. Who'll win ? probably the hydra/roach's one. But the careful player had his 4 infestors back up for the next batch of roaches and can easily overun the hydra/ roach composition. This is particularly true if there is no creep. This is why i'm thinking hydras are usefull only once you've established the roaches / infestors composition first.
I'm not talking about roach/infestor vs roach/hydra. I'm talking about roach/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor. Roach/infestor vs roach/hydra is a skill matchup IMO (mostly the skill of the roach/hydra player wasting infestor energy efficiently enough). Roach/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor is a 100% win for roach/hydra assuming equality. The infestors cancel each other out and roach/hydra >>>>> roach. Pretty straight-forward.
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On December 12 2012 01:49 templar rage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 16:25 RaiZ wrote:On December 11 2012 08:49 templar rage wrote:On December 10 2012 22:53 RaiZ wrote:On December 10 2012 05:08 blade55555 wrote:On December 09 2012 16:34 RaiZ wrote:On December 09 2012 13:14 Mavvie wrote:On December 09 2012 12:50 Moosegills wrote:On December 09 2012 12:18 Mavvie wrote:
^ I recommend about 8-10 hydras, as many infestors as possible (make sure that you only get them when it's safe), and the rest of supply to roaches. So it'll average about 3 roaches : 1 hydra : 1 infestor. I would actually say much more hydras that that, its harder to move around position wise, but if you were watch NASL Sortof was making a ton of hydras in his 3-0 or hyun Right yeah, I mean everyone has their different preferences. Some players go past 30, some don't make any. It just depends on how you use it. I have a lot of success with positional wars using ~10-14 hydras, but some of my higher ranked friends say never more than 8, so really there isn't any "perfect" ratio. Why would anyone ever going Hydra in ZvZ ? 3 hydras is 1 infestor. I'd glady trade them any day. Thing is, especially right now, most patchzergs won't ever bother having more than 1 hotkey for ling / banes and even less for roach / hydras in order to "dodge" the FG (like i've seen a pro player even doing it... Not really, very rarely). Your friends are right, never make more than a few especially if you can easily control your army. Good concave with hydras behind roaches are good, but having an infestor behind while stutter step with roaches can perform probably better most of the time. What roach/hydra/infestor will crush roach/infestor most of the time unless the roach/hydra/infestor player engages in a really really bad spot. If you watched the last GSL finals you would notice this to that roach/hydra/viper just crushes roach/infestor. The one time roach/infestor beat roach/hydra/infestor was when sniper did a full surround flank that hyun stupidly walked into. Also btw even when zerg was underpowered in 2010 and people did ling bane they still did 1 control group. Love how you put in patch zergs which is just retarded. I don't understand why you're mentionning the 2010 year. I still see many zerg hotkeying all of their units in only 1 control group like they don't need ,ore because they "can" control them separatively with their mouse. They just don't realize how much gain they could benefit from it. Much like idra adopting stephano's egg style or even the other pros zerg (pretty sure lot of them switched). But hey, I'm a simple master zerg player. What do I know ?... I don't understand why you're trying to attribute using one control group for your army to patch zergs. Those two things have nothing to do with one another. In fact, control group/hotkey schemes have pretty much nothing to do with your skill (or perceived lackthereof in your case of patch zergs) as a player. A lot of zergs don't use multiple groups for roach/hydra. It's no big deal if you don't, since any control group/hotkey scheme is purely personal preference anyway. There is no right way to set up those things. And IDK where you got the idea that roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor, but as blade pointed out, it's just false. Roach/hydra is just a superior army composition to pure roach, and two equal armies will always result in the roach/hydra player winning unless they make a massive positional mistake. Well, I'm sorry if that's not the definition of patchzerg. For me it means all the new zerg that has got some success as of late (i'm thinking of targa, vortix, sortof and so on...) while all they did were simply, most of the time, A-moving their broodfestors. It's great that they can still control the infestors / queen apart from the corruptors / broodlords, but thing is I can't help but think they could benefit much more by controlling them more with hotkeys. It pisses me even more when i see some of the zerg still hotkeying lings / banes together in one hotkey in a ZvZ matchup. About hydras / roaches, that's why i'm talking about not having too much of them. Don't get me wrong, It's a really good dps filler for the roaches, but when it comes to "perfect" army composition, I just hardly see hydra winning against infestors since you can have 1 infestor per 3 hydras ratio. When you do the math : 12 clumped hydras easily dies against 4 infestors. But hey, it never happens right ? So we have let's say we have 1 row of roach and 1 row of hydras against 1 row of roach + 4 infestors (add some lings while we're at it) battling out in the middle of the fight. Who'll win ? probably the hydra/roach's one. But the careful player had his 4 infestors back up for the next batch of roaches and can easily overun the hydra/ roach composition. This is particularly true if there is no creep. This is why i'm thinking hydras are usefull only once you've established the roaches / infestors composition first. I'm not talking about roach/infestor vs roach/hydra. I'm talking about roach/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor. Roach/infestor vs roach/hydra is a skill matchup IMO (mostly the skill of the roach/hydra player wasting infestor energy efficiently enough). Roach/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor is a 100% win for roach/hydra assuming equality. The infestors cancel each other out and roach/hydra >>>>> roach. Pretty straight-forward.
In a straight up engagement, the Roach / Hydra / Infestor, assuming proper concave, will have a more cost efficient engagement, but usually this is not how it happens. The roach / infestor has an easier moving (more mobile) army, less complicated to set up before fights and an higher infestor count, due to the lack of hydras which cost a lot of gas. The roach infestor player, up until supreme late game, has a lot of potential to stretch the other guy's multitasking, hitting different expansions with small groups of roaches while trying to posture himself to hit the front. Of course I am not talking about Antiga Shipyard where hydras are really insanely good to defend the 3 bases, but rather maps like Daybreak, where I feel hydras are less viable until very late in the game.
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On December 12 2012 01:25 Mavvie wrote:^ I only use three hotkeys for my army, sometimes manual selection (think control+click) is necessary. In ZvT late game: 1: ling/bane, 2: broodlord+corruptor, 3: infestors. You micro the slow push by a-moving the broodlords, keep ling/bane back, and poke around with infestors to try and nab some good fungals. If he stims in, fungal everything and a move groups 1(ling/bane) and 2(corruptor/broodlord). Keep fungalling and don't let him retreat-you should win. ZvP: 1: 3/3 cracklings+ a few roaches, 2: corruptor/broodlord, 3: infestors. Engagements in ZvP are a bit different. If you can, siege up with broodlords. Keep about 8 corruptors, and try to snipe the mothership with corruption + focus fire. Try to deny blinks with fungal, but this is unreliable. So once he blinks chain fungal EVERYTHING, 1a your cracklings, and stutter step your broodlords. Generally if you can afford it you want fewer lings and more broodfestor, but you can't always have that. In all matchups double spire/evo are both a must. You need 3/3, crackling, and heavy air upgrades. Air carapace is usually better, but both are so, so important. My lategame improved so much once I started focusing on upgrades. Also: if your corruptors fail to snipe mothership, try to fungal + neural! ALWAYS spam IT if he looks like he's gonna blink under; marine good unit
This is some nice advice
The questioner also asked about how to stop units from falling behind - Generally, I would practice always pressing ALL of your army hotkeys -- even in the early game when you only have 1-2 of those hotkeys populated. That way, you get into the habbit of always moving all of your units, and not leaving some behind.
I use:
1= Roach/Ling
2= Harassment units, mutas, or runbyes
3= hatcheries
4= infestors, vipers
5= BL, Corupter, overseer
6= misc
7 (rebinded to F1) = Queens
Make sure you don't completely rely on hotkeys -- manually selecting units is still a must
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On December 12 2012 04:41 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 01:25 Mavvie wrote:^ I only use three hotkeys for my army, sometimes manual selection (think control+click) is necessary. In ZvT late game: 1: ling/bane, 2: broodlord+corruptor, 3: infestors. You micro the slow push by a-moving the broodlords, keep ling/bane back, and poke around with infestors to try and nab some good fungals. If he stims in, fungal everything and a move groups 1(ling/bane) and 2(corruptor/broodlord). Keep fungalling and don't let him retreat-you should win. ZvP: 1: 3/3 cracklings+ a few roaches, 2: corruptor/broodlord, 3: infestors. Engagements in ZvP are a bit different. If you can, siege up with broodlords. Keep about 8 corruptors, and try to snipe the mothership with corruption + focus fire. Try to deny blinks with fungal, but this is unreliable. So once he blinks chain fungal EVERYTHING, 1a your cracklings, and stutter step your broodlords. Generally if you can afford it you want fewer lings and more broodfestor, but you can't always have that. In all matchups double spire/evo are both a must. You need 3/3, crackling, and heavy air upgrades. Air carapace is usually better, but both are so, so important. My lategame improved so much once I started focusing on upgrades. Also: if your corruptors fail to snipe mothership, try to fungal + neural! ALWAYS spam IT if he looks like he's gonna blink under; marine good unit This is some nice advice The questioner also asked about how to stop units from falling behind - Generally, I would practice always pressing ALL of your army hotkeys -- even in the early game when you only have 1-2 of those hotkeys populated. That way, you get into the habbit of always moving all of your units, and not leaving some behind. I use: 1= Roach/Ling 2= Harassment units, mutas, or runbyes 3= hatcheries 4= infestors, vipers 5= BL, Corupter, overseer 6= misc 7 (rebinded to F1) = Queens Make sure you don't completely rely on hotkeys -- manually selecting units is still a must
Thanks Mavvie and Glon for your excellent replies! Zerg help me thread saves the day
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Hey im Bronze league Zerg and i need help in the Zerg end game and in ZvP i normally just stick with mass roach then he comes at me with colossus and stalker and i get pwnd i just dont know what units to get endgame as zerg and how many bases i should be on i normally just try to be one base higher than they are can anyone help me i really wanna get better as Zerg Any help would be greatly appreiciated
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On December 12 2012 07:38 evildarkdude wrote:
Hey im Bronze league Zerg and i need help in the Zerg end game and in ZvP i normally just stick with mass roach then he comes at me with colossus and stalker and i get pwnd i just dont know what units to get endgame as zerg and how many bases i should be on i normally just try to be one base higher than they are can anyone help me i really wanna get better as Zerg Any help would be greatly appreiciated
Generally, you should be aiming to get up a Broodlord infestor corrupter army for the late game. Your end game composition of roaches will get smashed once protoss gets up collosus and a ball of stalkers -- Think of roaches as a MEANS to GET TO the end game composition.
Don't be afraid to expand -- When I am coaching students, I tell them as a general rule to always make a hatchery (whether a macro hatchery or a new expansion) whenever they have 1,000 minerals. But, as a general rule, staying 1 base ahead of your protoss opponent is a pretty good idea.
It sounds like you have the right idea for the mid game -- Start working on getting infestors and using fungal growth to lock down enemy units, then getting a hive and a greater spire to move onto brood lords at around the 15:00-16:00 minute mark (you should be on 4 bases)
If you have any specific questions, post a replay and I can look over it for you.
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Not sure if it's the patch or something, but I am finding myself unable to win ZvP lategame. Fungals never land, IT die before they spawn, and vortex is stronger than ever. Of course I know the problem's on my end, so I'd like to ask for some advice on this replay: http://drop.sc/283680
I'm aware of my macro shortcomings and all the mistakes I made in the midgame (late spire too bleh), but I attempted to use the HyuN style and it worked extremely well. I got on 5 bases with 80+ drones and a reasonable hive timing, with a shitload of infestors while being aggressive and trading very efficiently. Then as I make my first blord/infestor push he has mothership so I back off + get corruptors and overseers. I get my shit archon toileted, lol I'm bad. My opponent is too when he runs home from my ling-rally counterattack, so I don't die I just lose one base (I'm still up 5 to 4 after his push). I remax on broodfestor, get a neural and vortex HIS army, and still lose lol. Not enough broodlords? Not enough infestors? Better fungals/more IT? I don't even know...I guess I had too many drones? It was so one-sided I don't know what I should've done better.
Excuse the "What a joke" at the end, I felt it a little obnoxious that the oh so "overpowered" broodlord infestor should die twice to a mostly stalker army  It's all good though I normally have a positive attitude on things.
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Would anyone be kind enough to look through my replays and tell me where i am going wrong. I am stuck in bronze though i have tried hard to get out of the pit. I think i am doing some of the basics right, i am starting to scout more and in a better way. I hit most injects and have a decent army. If someone can put a few pointers out i would be very happy.
Sometimes i get matched with high silver and gold players and get stomped on so i know i have some way to go.
http://drop.sc/283684
http://drop.sc/283683
http://drop.sc/283682
http://drop.sc/283681
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On December 12 2012 08:07 Mavvie wrote:Not sure if it's the patch or something, but I am finding myself unable to win ZvP lategame. Fungals never land, IT die before they spawn, and vortex is stronger than ever. Of course I know the problem's on my end, so I'd like to ask for some advice on this replay: http://drop.sc/283680 I'm aware of my macro shortcomings and all the mistakes I made in the midgame (late spire too bleh), but I attempted to use the HyuN style and it worked extremely well. I got on 5 bases with 80+ drones and a reasonable hive timing, with a shitload of infestors while being aggressive and trading very efficiently. Then as I make my first blord/infestor push he has mothership so I back off + get corruptors and overseers. I get my shit archon toileted, lol I'm bad. My opponent is too when he runs home from my ling-rally counterattack, so I don't die I just lose one base (I'm still up 5 to 4 after his push). I remax on broodfestor, get a neural and vortex HIS army, and still lose lol. Not enough broodlords? Not enough infestors? Better fungals/more IT? I don't even know...I guess I had too many drones? It was so one-sided I don't know what I should've done better. Excuse the "What a joke" at the end, I felt it a little obnoxious that the oh so "overpowered" broodlord infestor should die twice to a mostly stalker army It's all good though I normally have a positive attitude on things.
Late game ZvP, now the protoss has the ultimate army. You can't engage it- I'm not even talking about the carrier max, I'm now talking about the templar, collosus, stalker mothership ball. I'm doing 8 Brood lord pushes now with queen roach infestor.
I know what you mean -- I get neural double vortexes off, with a spine wall, and STILL lose versus protoss now. I'm not really sure how to solve this -- You can't turtle anymore. Do brood lord pushes with lots of ground support.
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On December 11 2012 07:00 Defenestrator wrote:
In ZvP, what is the correct response to a twilight opening? Also, how about stargate? I am so used to robo openers now that I just do the standard macrohatch/+1/+1 lings, etc., but I feel that this is really vulnerable to zealot/archon allins and such (lings are useless against this, infestors aren't great).
Does anyone have any advice on this point? I know to get roaches, but what about upgrade paths and midgame transitions?
Also, do people usually play aggressively with roaches vs twilight openers?
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On December 12 2012 08:17 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 08:07 Mavvie wrote:Not sure if it's the patch or something, but I am finding myself unable to win ZvP lategame. Fungals never land, IT die before they spawn, and vortex is stronger than ever. Of course I know the problem's on my end, so I'd like to ask for some advice on this replay: http://drop.sc/283680 I'm aware of my macro shortcomings and all the mistakes I made in the midgame (late spire too bleh), but I attempted to use the HyuN style and it worked extremely well. I got on 5 bases with 80+ drones and a reasonable hive timing, with a shitload of infestors while being aggressive and trading very efficiently. Then as I make my first blord/infestor push he has mothership so I back off + get corruptors and overseers. I get my shit archon toileted, lol I'm bad. My opponent is too when he runs home from my ling-rally counterattack, so I don't die I just lose one base (I'm still up 5 to 4 after his push). I remax on broodfestor, get a neural and vortex HIS army, and still lose lol. Not enough broodlords? Not enough infestors? Better fungals/more IT? I don't even know...I guess I had too many drones? It was so one-sided I don't know what I should've done better. Excuse the "What a joke" at the end, I felt it a little obnoxious that the oh so "overpowered" broodlord infestor should die twice to a mostly stalker army It's all good though I normally have a positive attitude on things. Late game ZvP, now the protoss has the ultimate army. You can't engage it- I'm not even talking about the carrier max, I'm now talking about the templar, collosus, stalker mothership ball. I'm doing 8 Brood lord pushes now with queen roach infestor. I know what you mean -- I get neural double vortexes off, with a spine wall, and STILL lose versus protoss now. I'm not really sure how to solve this -- You can't turtle anymore. Do brood lord pushes with lots of ground support.
Hmm....why roaches instead of cracklings? I saw YugiOh lose in a similar fashion, of course way higher level play out of both players. I'll take your word about not engaging, but like why do Protoss complain about lategame if they actually have the unbeatable deathball?
Ultra/bane is looking really good right now haha, hits earlier + stronger vs typical colossus playstyles.
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On December 12 2012 09:21 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 08:17 Glon wrote:On December 12 2012 08:07 Mavvie wrote:Not sure if it's the patch or something, but I am finding myself unable to win ZvP lategame. Fungals never land, IT die before they spawn, and vortex is stronger than ever. Of course I know the problem's on my end, so I'd like to ask for some advice on this replay: http://drop.sc/283680 I'm aware of my macro shortcomings and all the mistakes I made in the midgame (late spire too bleh), but I attempted to use the HyuN style and it worked extremely well. I got on 5 bases with 80+ drones and a reasonable hive timing, with a shitload of infestors while being aggressive and trading very efficiently. Then as I make my first blord/infestor push he has mothership so I back off + get corruptors and overseers. I get my shit archon toileted, lol I'm bad. My opponent is too when he runs home from my ling-rally counterattack, so I don't die I just lose one base (I'm still up 5 to 4 after his push). I remax on broodfestor, get a neural and vortex HIS army, and still lose lol. Not enough broodlords? Not enough infestors? Better fungals/more IT? I don't even know...I guess I had too many drones? It was so one-sided I don't know what I should've done better. Excuse the "What a joke" at the end, I felt it a little obnoxious that the oh so "overpowered" broodlord infestor should die twice to a mostly stalker army It's all good though I normally have a positive attitude on things. Late game ZvP, now the protoss has the ultimate army. You can't engage it- I'm not even talking about the carrier max, I'm now talking about the templar, collosus, stalker mothership ball. I'm doing 8 Brood lord pushes now with queen roach infestor. I know what you mean -- I get neural double vortexes off, with a spine wall, and STILL lose versus protoss now. I'm not really sure how to solve this -- You can't turtle anymore. Do brood lord pushes with lots of ground support. Hmm....why roaches instead of cracklings? I saw YugiOh lose in a similar fashion, of course way higher level play out of both players. I'll take your word about not engaging, but like why do Protoss complain about lategame if they actually have the unbeatable deathball? Ultra/bane is looking really good right now haha, hits earlier + stronger vs typical colossus playstyles.
I've always sort of thought that P basically were just whining to be whining. Right now deathball play is very much still the style for SC2 and it really does come down to that 1 engagement coinflip in this matchup.
I dunno about you guys but even just seeing collossi/immortal/sentry/blink-stalker/zealot/mothership armies make me not even want to advance on them. I've started just saying "HEADS" before engaging P lategame (usually after I have 5-6 bases and split the map with them). Seems appropriate.
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I guess our best option is a leenock/dimaga style spine push?
Wow I kind of believed all the balance whine, and assumed that Protoss's 52% winrate was from 2/3 base pre-infestor/hive all ins and Zergs won everything else, but I'm glad to know that it's not just me. So basically in that replay my mistake was letting him get to that deathball? :/
I dunno about you guys but even just seeing collossi/immortal/sentry/blink-stalker/zealot/mothership armies make me not even want to advance on them. I've started just saying "HEADS" before engaging P lategame (usually after I have 5-6 bases and split the map with them). Seems appropriate.
Even without immortal/zealot I agree, haha I might start either doing that or a Naniwa-style "fuck itttt" then leave game. Unfortunately I only see HotS making these problems worse, now tempests counter all zerg T3 yay.
Despite all this, I'm sure we all remember HerO vs Leenock on Antiga where Hero was miles ahead but lost the game to broodlord/infestor push. What did HerO do wrong, or Leenock do right that we aren't? I seem to recall that's when the balance whining peaked...
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On December 12 2012 10:21 Mavvie wrote:I guess our best option is a leenock/dimaga style spine push? Wow I kind of believed all the balance whine, and assumed that Protoss's 52% winrate was from 2/3 base pre-infestor/hive all ins and Zergs won everything else, but I'm glad to know that it's not just me. So basically in that replay my mistake was letting him get to that deathball? :/ Show nested quote +I dunno about you guys but even just seeing collossi/immortal/sentry/blink-stalker/zealot/mothership armies make me not even want to advance on them. I've started just saying "HEADS" before engaging P lategame (usually after I have 5-6 bases and split the map with them). Seems appropriate. Even without immortal/zealot I agree, haha I might start either doing that or a Naniwa-style "fuck itttt" then leave game. Unfortunately I only see HotS making these problems worse, now tempests counter all zerg T3 yay. Despite all this, I'm sure we all remember HerO vs Leenock on Antiga where Hero was miles ahead but lost the game to broodlord/infestor push. What did HerO do wrong, or Leenock do right that we aren't? I seem to recall that's when the balance whining peaked...
Lategame engagements, at least up to this point, definitely favor Z at the pro level. I think in Monk's interview with DB, he had some statistics that showed P winning 10% of macro PvZ games from some tournament.
That being said, I agree that the engagement slightly favors Z, but not substantially. All those people who say "oh just a-move your gglords and winfestors" have no idea what level of control it takes to come out ahead with this composition against a competent protoss. You cannot let them blink under, you have to spread your slowass units (and KEEP them spread), etc., etc. Hell, post-nerf, it may favor toss now.
Additionally, all P players who ladder, especially in masters+, have SUBSTANTIAL experience against BL/infestor. Whenever you play the current meta, you'll always face people who have thought deeply about how to deal with the current imbalances/weaknesses in that meta (which is why although I think it's solid on its own merits, ultra/bane would be more powerful now than if it was current meta; people are not used to the style). Against one of my practice partners I'm something like 1-8 when I go BL/infestor, but 10-0 when I go with my drops into ultra/bane style. This is also why you see a lot more failed immo/sentry than you used to-Z has spent so much time and energy on ways to defend it that you see more people holding it nowadays. I mean, even Parting lost.
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What did HerO do wrong, or Leenock do right that we aren't? I seem to recall that's when the balance whining peaked...
What leenock did right was neural parasite the mothership while hero's whole army was on a move command backwards away from the broodlords. The mothership with slow acceleration got slightly exposed, and the colossus were on move command so they didn't auto-kill the infestor.
can you force that? i don't know.
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Hello!
I am a lonely platinum zerg, just doing my best to climb the ladder, and for the most part, have been doing so successfully. However, I have currently hit a wall against protoss. We aren't talking your standard brick on concrete, this is high security 5 foot think solid steel testing lab walls. Every time I run into one on ladder it's the same thing every time, some variant of a 2 base all in. Personally, I love macro games, or atleast a game where mutas are effective. I'm at a loss of how to get to late game against protoss. Currently I've been winning games by either doing a early baneling speed 1/1 timing (Weird, but effective, even with good ff control its easy to burn them out and flood with lings, sometimes even use a nydus) or by playing a sort of defensive 11 minute roach max, where I drone up on 3 bases to about 60 drones or so and start producing units, but if I'm able to defend their attack, which isn't all that often, I end up overwhelming them with a counter. I want to play late game though. If I go for a muta build, their attack usually hits as they pop out, and even so aren't very good at defending. I've tried going infestor but its hard to get the out efficiently before an attack hits and even then I'm lacking the roach/ling count to kill off their army. So does anybody have any suggestions of what I should do? A good way to defend against these all-ins while keeping a late game transition viable?
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On December 12 2012 08:15 carlaz wrote:Would anyone be kind enough to look through my replays and tell me where i am going wrong. I am stuck in bronze though i have tried hard to get out of the pit. I think i am doing some of the basics right, i am starting to scout more and in a better way. I hit most injects and have a decent army. If someone can put a few pointers out i would be very happy. Sometimes i get matched with high silver and gold players and get stomped on so i know i have some way to go. http://drop.sc/283684http://drop.sc/283683http://drop.sc/283682http://drop.sc/283681
I'm currently going over your replays, Hit me up in game if you want to talk otherwise I'll just post a response on this thread.
Justify.453
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EPT
