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On December 13 2012 23:59 Insoleet wrote:
Simple question. Am i the only one who cant seems to win any lategame in ZvT Mech and ZvP ? Since infestor nerf, i just loose everytime, eggs are not able to spawn, my army is getting wrecked... I even loose a BL/Infestor/roach army just with stalkers blinking under my BL.
So, did this patch change your lategame too ? Have you find any solution yet ?
Fungal the stalkers instead of using all your energy on IT, chainfungal them so they can't blink under your broods. Lategame mech; fungal the vikings and let corruptors take care of them, or toss some IT (out of siege tank range preferably). BL should clean up the rest?
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On December 14 2012 01:21 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 23:59 Insoleet wrote:
Simple question. Am i the only one who cant seems to win any lategame in ZvT Mech and ZvP ? Since infestor nerf, i just loose everytime, eggs are not able to spawn, my army is getting wrecked... I even loose a BL/Infestor/roach army just with stalkers blinking under my BL.
So, did this patch change your lategame too ? Have you find any solution yet ? Fungal the stalkers instead of using all your energy on IT, chainfungal them so they can't blink under your broods. Lategame mech; fungal the vikings and let corruptors take care of them, or toss some IT (out of siege tank range preferably). BL should clean up the rest?
If i use fungle instead of IT, i loose my infestors because of colossi lasers... Same in ZvT, loosing my infests to tanks shots. :/
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On December 14 2012 01:48 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 01:21 Henk wrote:On December 13 2012 23:59 Insoleet wrote:
Simple question. Am i the only one who cant seems to win any lategame in ZvT Mech and ZvP ? Since infestor nerf, i just loose everytime, eggs are not able to spawn, my army is getting wrecked... I even loose a BL/Infestor/roach army just with stalkers blinking under my BL.
So, did this patch change your lategame too ? Have you find any solution yet ? Fungal the stalkers instead of using all your energy on IT, chainfungal them so they can't blink under your broods. Lategame mech; fungal the vikings and let corruptors take care of them, or toss some IT (out of siege tank range preferably). BL should clean up the rest? If i use fungle instead of IT, i loose my infestors because of colossi lasers... Same in ZvT, loosing my infests to tanks shots. :/
I have the same problems as you, posted about them a page or two ago  Glon and Crooked agreed and stuff...basically you have to enter lategame with a lead to win, because lategame Z is not a free win, unlike what the whiners would have you believe. Fungals never land on stalkers (especially after nerf), and archon/colo make the broodlords deal 0 damage while storm/stalker will tear your broodlords to shreds.
I'm thinking the best style is dimaga-esque 3 base spine/spore turtle....you dont actually engage ever, you just wait for your opponent to get bored and ragequit.
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On December 14 2012 02:13 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 01:48 Insoleet wrote:On December 14 2012 01:21 Henk wrote:On December 13 2012 23:59 Insoleet wrote:
Simple question. Am i the only one who cant seems to win any lategame in ZvT Mech and ZvP ? Since infestor nerf, i just loose everytime, eggs are not able to spawn, my army is getting wrecked... I even loose a BL/Infestor/roach army just with stalkers blinking under my BL.
So, did this patch change your lategame too ? Have you find any solution yet ? Fungal the stalkers instead of using all your energy on IT, chainfungal them so they can't blink under your broods. Lategame mech; fungal the vikings and let corruptors take care of them, or toss some IT (out of siege tank range preferably). BL should clean up the rest? If i use fungle instead of IT, i loose my infestors because of colossi lasers... Same in ZvT, loosing my infests to tanks shots. :/ I have the same problems as you, posted about them a page or two ago Glon and Crooked agreed and stuff...basically you have to enter lategame with a lead to win, because lategame Z is not a free win, unlike what the whiners would have you believe. Fungals never land on stalkers (especially after nerf), and archon/colo make the broodlords deal 0 damage while storm/stalker will tear your broodlords to shreds. I'm thinking the best style is dimaga-esque 3 base spine/spore turtle....you dont actually engage ever, you just wait for your opponent to get bored and ragequit.
Ok so basically i can just stop the game if i have to play like this -.-
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On December 14 2012 02:37 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 02:13 Mavvie wrote:On December 14 2012 01:48 Insoleet wrote:On December 14 2012 01:21 Henk wrote:On December 13 2012 23:59 Insoleet wrote:
Simple question. Am i the only one who cant seems to win any lategame in ZvT Mech and ZvP ? Since infestor nerf, i just loose everytime, eggs are not able to spawn, my army is getting wrecked... I even loose a BL/Infestor/roach army just with stalkers blinking under my BL.
So, did this patch change your lategame too ? Have you find any solution yet ? Fungal the stalkers instead of using all your energy on IT, chainfungal them so they can't blink under your broods. Lategame mech; fungal the vikings and let corruptors take care of them, or toss some IT (out of siege tank range preferably). BL should clean up the rest? If i use fungle instead of IT, i loose my infestors because of colossi lasers... Same in ZvT, loosing my infests to tanks shots. :/ I have the same problems as you, posted about them a page or two ago Glon and Crooked agreed and stuff...basically you have to enter lategame with a lead to win, because lategame Z is not a free win, unlike what the whiners would have you believe. Fungals never land on stalkers (especially after nerf), and archon/colo make the broodlords deal 0 damage while storm/stalker will tear your broodlords to shreds. I'm thinking the best style is dimaga-esque 3 base spine/spore turtle....you dont actually engage ever, you just wait for your opponent to get bored and ragequit. Ok so basically i can just stop the game if i have to play like this -.-
lol I wouldn't go so far as to say to quit. Its incredibly discouraging at times though because its basically back to how we've always been.
People forget that Zerg was considered the weakest race for the longest time until the last few patches. Then everyone started getting mad because Zergs were able to actually win consistently. Now with this patch, its back to us needing to be far ahead of our opponents at all times. It means you literally ALWAYS have to outplay and outsmart your opponent. The strain of what you have to set up and macro up and tech up to at the same time will also probably be far greater than the strain on an lategame P.
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Can I make it into Diamond with a terrible win rate vs Protoss? I'm talking one win in the last month of ladder games vs. P.
My win rates vs. Terran and Zerg are pretty fantastic, and I'm currently 2nd in my division in Platinum.
Does anyone know if you can advance without "proving" you can beat all three races?
I'm thinking the best style is dimaga-esque 3 base spine/spore turtle....you dont actually engage ever, you just wait for your opponent to get bored and ragequit.
Link? Seems easily beaten by colossus/tank/brood lord.
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On December 14 2012 04:52 Falcon-sw wrote:Can I make it into Diamond with a terrible win rate vs Protoss? I'm talking one win in the last month of ladder games vs. P. My win rates vs. Terran and Zerg are pretty fantastic, and I'm currently 2nd in my division in Platinum. Does anyone know if you can advance without "proving" you can beat all three races? Show nested quote +
I'm thinking the best style is dimaga-esque 3 base spine/spore turtle....you dont actually engage ever, you just wait for your opponent to get bored and ragequit.
Link? Seems easily beaten by colossus/tank/brood lord.
I am exactly in the same boat as you are. ZvT and ZvZ are fine. ZvP I just win 1 game out of about 10. I am top platinum also NA server.
Protoss armies are so strong. If you don't have exactly the right stuff you did all the time. I feel its much more easier with T or Z. Bio-tank you just swarm with lings/banes and most of the time at my level it's enough. But vs P the force fields makes it impossible sometimes to get a good engagement.
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On December 14 2012 04:52 Falcon-sw wrote:Can I make it into Diamond with a terrible win rate vs Protoss? I'm talking one win in the last month of ladder games vs. P. My win rates vs. Terran and Zerg are pretty fantastic, and I'm currently 2nd in my division in Platinum. Does anyone know if you can advance without "proving" you can beat all three races? Show nested quote +
I'm thinking the best style is dimaga-esque 3 base spine/spore turtle....you dont actually engage ever, you just wait for your opponent to get bored and ragequit.
Link? Seems easily beaten by colossus/tank/brood lord.
This is probably not the place to be asking this. I mean if your winrate overall is very good then you can get promoted, pretty simple.
If you're having problems vs toss, there's a lot of viable ways to beat standard play, both via cheese and not. If you ask about specifics/post a replay then people can help you out.
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Yes, you can advance, in theory.. On average, your MMR will stay the same if you have a 50% win rate. This won't change based on race. So assuming a 0% win-rate vs. Toss and 33% tosses, that means you need a 75% win-rate vs. the other two races to break even. Now let's say you want a 55% win-rate. Assuming a 0% win-rate vs. Toss, you now need an 82.5% win-rate vs. Terran and Zerg. If you want a 60% win-rate, you need a 90% win-rate vs. Terran and Zerg.
So, yes you can advance, but it'll be slow and require 80%+ win-rates vs. both Terran and Zerg. You'd be best off learning ZvP better, but it is possible to get promoted: As far as I know, there is nothing in the Blizzard MMR that discriminates by race of your opponent.
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A while back, I knew someone in Masters who hated ZvZ so much he literally just quit every single one at the start for months. It took him quite a while, but he did eventually get demoted, only to get pretty much immediately re-promoted because he was stomping the diamond-level terrans and tosses for 90%+ winrates. That's basically what you would need if you just wanted to leave every ZvP at the start. You could also just pick an all-in and just do that every ZvP. At least you would get a >0% winrate, and if your other matchups are as good as you claim, you should be fine.
I don't recommend either of those options btw unless all you want is the shiny Diamond icon to make yourself feel good. I recommend taking the time to figure out what's going wrong in your ZvP rather than moaning about how bad it is. Watch pro replays or post your own for analysis if you're stuck. If you're truly crushing ZvT and ZvZ as much as you claim, all you need to do is improve your ZvP and you'll laugh at how easy promotion was.
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On December 14 2012 04:52 Falcon-sw wrote:Can I make it into Diamond with a terrible win rate vs Protoss? I'm talking one win in the last month of ladder games vs. P. My win rates vs. Terran and Zerg are pretty fantastic, and I'm currently 2nd in my division in Platinum. Does anyone know if you can advance without "proving" you can beat all three races? Show nested quote +
I'm thinking the best style is dimaga-esque 3 base spine/spore turtle....you dont actually engage ever, you just wait for your opponent to get bored and ragequit.
Link? Seems easily beaten by colossus/tank/brood lord.
Other people answered your first part, so I'll just answer the nested quote:
You don't want a link, it's boring as shit to watch The games I'm thinking of are Leenock vs Hero on Antiga GSL S4 I believe, where leenock literally stays on 3 bases against Hero's 5+, but Hero left his army on move command and got his mothership neuralled so he lost.
I was watching Naniwa's stream, and in a ladder game against dimaga (who did said 3 base spine/spore turtle) naniwa literally just said "fuck it" and left. It was kind of a joke though, hinting that our best lategame option is to try to bore our opponent to death.
If you want ZvP help you can post replays here, or if you want hit me up on battle.net (uwuMavvie.419) and I can help you out with some practice games + discussion of what to improve  I'm obviously not great at Protoss, but I'm definitely better than the opponent's you'll be facing ^^
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Thanks for the advice, templar and Salivanth. I really think it's a function of low APM with ZvP. I just cannot consistently meet the benchmarks for drone production while scouting the map for proxies while creep spreading while scouting the protoss gasses. Something suffers and I get stomped. That's the other frustrating part of the Protoss matchup: these are not nailbiting losses, these are crushing defeats where I never had a chance. I understand the matchup itself is not broken; there are plenty of zergs who handle it just fine, but I don't think my reaction/action times are good enough. Is there a way to test that?
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OK I'm kind of curious...is the spending quotient thing legit? Like a friend showed me this cool site http://www.ggtracker.com where you upload replays and then it acts kind of like sc2gears... Here's my profile, what I found interesting is that in virtually every game I play I pull a GM-level SQ. Are the benchmarks for SQ just out of date? I mean the research/original post on TL was a long time ago, but I definitely don't macro like a GM.
Or maybe I do and I just have bad decision making/engagement micro...just very curious about this haha ^^
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On December 14 2012 07:49 Falcon-sw wrote:
Thanks for the advice, templar and Salivanth. I really think it's a function of low APM with ZvP. I just cannot consistently meet the benchmarks for drone production while scouting the map for proxies while creep spreading while scouting the protoss gasses. Something suffers and I get stomped. That's the other frustrating part of the Protoss matchup: these are not nailbiting losses, these are crushing defeats where I never had a chance. I understand the matchup itself is not broken; there are plenty of zergs who handle it just fine, but I don't think my reaction/action times are good enough. Is there a way to test that?
You should absolutely read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 guide. It's belial's ZVP guide, and it's amazing. It got me from platina to top diamond just from understanding the protoss builds. Scouting the gases on the natural is so incredibly important, you wouldn't even believe me. Protoss all ins 50% of the time (Just an estimate, lol) and scouting this is important to win these games. The other 50% is them taking a relatively safe third base, which you also need to identify to make sure you drone even harder, like all the way up to 80 drones on 4 bases, barely making units before that. I could really tell you so much about ZvP (I'm no GM or Masters though, although I am aiming to reach Masters soon). Just read the guide and play the games, you'll suddenly be able to make sense out out of things like seeing when a sentry immortal all in is coming, or whether they are just using the sentries and immortals to take a quick 3rd.
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On December 14 2012 07:49 Falcon-sw wrote:
Thanks for the advice, templar and Salivanth. I really think it's a function of low APM with ZvP. I just cannot consistently meet the benchmarks for drone production while scouting the map for proxies while creep spreading while scouting the protoss gasses. Something suffers and I get stomped. That's the other frustrating part of the Protoss matchup: these are not nailbiting losses, these are crushing defeats where I never had a chance. I understand the matchup itself is not broken; there are plenty of zergs who handle it just fine, but I don't think my reaction/action times are good enough. Is there a way to test that?
PvZ is the eaaaasiest matchup in the world to lose if you don't know what you're doing. Toss just has to mass stalker/colossus (or immortal/sentry) off of 2-3 base, push A, and click. It's easily the most frustrating matchup for Zerg, IMO (and probably in the whole game). This was certainly true for the first two years of release, before the BL/infestor craze.
I'm guessing if you're winning ZvT and ZvZ at your level, it's really not about your reaction times; it's probably mostly about your decision-making. There're basically 5 approaches that I have towards ZvP:
1. The early drone-cutting, super allin. You can do this off of 2base or 3, either roach/ling or ling/baneling. Will win you a lot of games, easy to do. You won't learn much about macro/engagements, but done properly there's no reason why this can't take you into masters.
2. Roach max style. This occurs after you deal with any potential 2-base allin, which is the toughest part of ZvP IMO; identifying and reacting properly to all the possible allins requires good game knowledge, scouting, and macro/micro. However if toss takes a 3rd (or ideally, WHILE he's taking a 3rd), you can win a lot of games this way.
3. Some kind of alternative midgame aggression. This can range from drops to mutas to some kind of combination of roach/hydra/ling/infestor aggression at his front. The frontal attack is the least reliable IMO, but muta/drop play is very powerful.
4. Lategame BL/infestor style. As others have outlined, this is a tough comp to win with, but very powerful if used properly.
5. Mid/lategame ultra/bane style. My favorite by far =P Slightly less conventional, but may get more attention with the infestor nerf.
If you have questions on any approach specifically, we can go into more detail on how to win with it. Just pick one that suits your style. If I were you I would go with roach max; it's a good balance between requiring you to learn about the matchup while positioning yourself to win a lot of games.
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Great post, Defensetrator, thank you. I have done a lot of study on the roach max style, but when I try to implement it, every Protoss knows they have to hit before 11 minutes, so they'll send a +1 zealot attack or an immortal/sentry attack at 9 minutes, or harass with phoenix. Any of these things throw me and reacting to it puts me way behind. And reading exactly what is coming is pretty rough. I dunno.
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On December 14 2012 12:23 Falcon-sw wrote:
Great post, Defensetrator, thank you. I have done a lot of study on the roach max style, but when I try to implement it, every Protoss knows they have to hit before 11 minutes, so they'll send a +1 zealot attack or an immortal/sentry attack at 9 minutes, or harass with phoenix. Any of these things throw me and reacting to it puts me way behind. And reading exactly what is coming is pretty rough. I dunno.
There are a looooot of 2base allins, but the two openers you mentioned are probably the most common nowadays. To figure this out, you should have 2 overlords at his base. With my first overlord I send it to his nat to see if he's FFE'ing, and then I send it to a spot over his gas. With the second I send it to my nat and then once I have lings out, I immediately send it outside his main to sac it around 6:00~6:30ish.
If he hasn't taken both gasses by 6:30, you should suspect some kind of gateway pressure. This means you want your roach warren down ASAP and maybe a spine at your 3rd. If you scout chrono's on his cyber starting around 6:00 with lings at his front, then you should definitely be wary of gateway pressure.
If he has taken both gasses by 6:30, and your OL scouts a robo, start prepping for an immo/sentry allin. There's a lot of discussion on how to hold that; basically you pump lings starting at around 8:00 or so and mob him when he moves out. If he expands instead, try to pressure with your lings maybe some roaches. At this point you can go allin with a roach max or roach/ling max or macro.
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hey all im bronze was rank 3 in bronze and i really really just want to get to silver. well the last couple games i got owned by the same guy who rushed me both times. i guess trying to get roach out for my defense was a bad idea? i saw him doing 1 base bannelings so i knew roaches are good against them. well right when 6 roaches came out boom his zerglings and bannelings came in and owned me
alright well i learned to never go straight to roaches..
next game i see he makes a spire so i put about 4 spores at each base and ended up have around 8 queens that game. i made infestors and roaches to support my infestors and 20 mutalisks came and pretty muchj ust destroyed me. my roaches were useless and my infestors only had so much energy for fungrual growth.. this is what made me mad the most. the entire game he just made air while i feel like i never missed an inject and he still beat me just because most of my units cant attack his units. how do u guys deal with air? i think its especially hard because for zerg just because i see a spire doesnt mean he will go heavily into air units. so its like a guess almost for what i should make. mass hydras to defense ? well what if he only ended up making a few mutalisks just to to kill drones. then i would have a weak army against ground units
 rank 5 now probably by the time i get done work ill be in rank 9. oh yea and no replays just because my computer hates me. doesnt let anyone view my replays i try to send and i cant watch them either. just some dumb error pops up. and now in hots it sounds like infestors are complete crud nuggets. and the new mushroom guys cant even attack air either. man im just getting pretty pissed right now. i also have a lot of other things i want to get help with but first i want to see if anyone can even help me with this
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On December 15 2012 17:44 BlessedHammers wrote:hey all im bronze was rank 3 in bronze and i really really just want to get to silver. well the last couple games i got owned by the same guy who rushed me both times. i guess trying to get roach out for my defense was a bad idea? i saw him doing 1 base bannelings so i knew roaches are good against them. well right when 6 roaches came out boom his zerglings and bannelings came in and owned me alright well i learned to never go straight to roaches.. next game i see he makes a spire so i put about 4 spores at each base and ended up have around 8 queens that game. i made infestors and roaches to support my infestors and 20 mutalisks came and pretty muchj ust destroyed me. my roaches were useless and my infestors only had so much energy for fungrual growth.. this is what made me mad the most. the entire game he just made air while i feel like i never missed an inject and he still beat me just because most of my units cant attack his units. how do u guys deal with air? i think its especially hard because for zerg just because i see a spire doesnt mean he will go heavily into air units. so its like a guess almost for what i should make. mass hydras to defense ? well what if he only ended up making a few mutalisks just to to kill drones. then i would have a weak army against ground units rank 5 now probably by the time i get done work ill be in rank 9. oh yea and no replays just because my computer hates me. doesnt let anyone view my replays i try to send and i cant watch them either. just some dumb error pops up
There are a lot of questions there that I feel maybe someone more competent @ teaching then me can answer but for now I'll give you my little piece of advice : you shouldn't worry about your rank at all, just about your skills. If you get better you'll get out of bronze league really fast.
Also, I don't know if people can concur (maybe I'm totally wrong with this one but hear me out) don't you just need to work on like mechanics if you are bronze-diamond? Because most timings / strategies don't really apply there? I mean general strategy might be okay (like don't mass hydras vs colossus and basic things like that) but about like openers and stuff, I think you might just want to try and copy what pros do but don't put too much thought into it as of just right now (at least I think maybe some more experienced coaches can correct me on this one.)
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EPT
