• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:36
CEST 22:36
KST 05:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles2[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 585 users

The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 443

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 441 442 443 444 445 489 Next
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
BlessedHammers
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada19 Posts
December 15 2012 08:55 GMT
#8841
yea i usually dont worry about trying to do an opening rush i just try and get sick macro going and scouting too. i try not to worry about rank but after 600+ games played i just feel like such a noob still in bronze now.

Rovskagg
Profile Joined August 2012
Sweden46 Posts
December 15 2012 14:09 GMT
#8842
Okey.
Im a 29 master with a good zvt and zvz but my zvp is probebly like 20% win rate, so bad.
I have no chance of holding a 2 base all in, no mather if its fast colo or immortal sentry all in.
If they go 3 base i have to much deffend and then loose 4 minutes later instead. how dafuq do i beat low gm or high master toss?
FeyverN
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States104 Posts
December 15 2012 14:31 GMT
#8843
On December 15 2012 23:09 Rovskagg wrote:
Okey.
Im a 29 master with a good zvt and zvz but my zvp is probebly like 20% win rate, so bad.
I have no chance of holding a 2 base all in, no mather if its fast colo or immortal sentry all in.
If they go 3 base i have to much deffend and then loose 4 minutes later instead. how dafuq do i beat low gm or high master toss?

I do something like this build, it's becoming more and more popular among the pros. Here is Stephano's variant on it:
Standard 3 hatch opener.
44 supply - double gas
60 supply - (RW if you suspect an all in) and evo chamber
10 seconds later - evo chamber

Get speed, 1/1, lair and then saturate your bases. Once saturated, take your third gases and take a fourth around 9:00

If you think he is all inning, then you can skip the double evo and just get mass roach ling.

Another possible opener which specializes in holding 2 base all ins (Nestea's style):

1) Fast gas after third (~4:30)
2) First 100 gas into ling speed, next 100 into lair
3) Drone up as usual, take 3x gas at 6:30
4) If you scout no gateway all-in, skip roach warren + evo chamber entirely
5) If you scout robo, Spire as soon as lair finishes
6) 2x gas at 7:00-7:30
If he all-ins, mass spines in your natural, sac third (leave guys mining gas) and basetrade with muta/ling. Reinforcing mutas go to his base, reinforcing lings stay in your spine forest.
If he expands, take a fourth and pressure with mutas. Honestly, you should win the game then and there. 10-15 mutas pop at 10:30; no protoss is ever prepared for that.
(Credit to this thread)

I don't know what else I can say. I'm a Zerg player and I think ZvP favors the Zerg.
Anyway, from there I just take my 5th base around 11 minutes and I just make about 8 infestors. If he is going colossus, I get corruptors (around 4 per colo). Then I get mass roach. I can tell you right now that if he does the push while you're teching to Greater Spire, 9 times out of 10 you should crush it. Well placed fungals, kill all of his colossus then remax out on Zerglings.
fuck
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
December 15 2012 15:42 GMT
#8844
On December 15 2012 23:09 Rovskagg wrote:
Okey.
Im a 29 master with a good zvt and zvz but my zvp is probebly like 20% win rate, so bad.
I have no chance of holding a 2 base all in, no mather if its fast colo or immortal sentry all in.
If they go 3 base i have to much deffend and then loose 4 minutes later instead. how dafuq do i beat low gm or high master toss?


If you're having trouble holding 2 base all-ins other than immo/sentry, I can almost guarantee you have a macro issue. A good macro benchmark to clock yourself at is to have 3 queens 3 hatches and precisely 60 drones along with probably a small pack of lings (I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20. I used to say 8:00, but people have had time to optimize this build now and GMs will be hitting 72-74 supply by 7:20. If you can't hit this mark untouched by a P, then you have a major macro issue somewhere in your opener which is preventing you from getting economy fast enough to transition into unit production in time for the push to arrive.

3 base opening is very safe against these all-ins as long as you play absolutely perfect. If you're really paranoid about like a 7 gate +2 blink stalker all-in or something, make 2 spines where you feel he'll try to attack (probably your third) and continue as normal with drones/queens and then forces later.

Another benchmark to hit later is the 12:30 HyuN max on 9 infestors 20-26 roaches and all the rest lings while on 5 base 10 gas (finished and about 100 gone on the 9th and 10th gas by 12:30) with 1/1 done for the lings and roaches and 2/2 on the way for melee and carapace, hive has to be going and spire also has to be going for the benchmark to be properly attained.

This amount and timing of army is far more than most P will be able to come up with for a 3 base pre-BL timing. Basically first work on hitting the 7:20 benchmark against like an AI or something that doesn't really touch you except for 1 zealot poke. Once you can hit that every time no problem, work on hitting the 12:30 max timing with ALL those components. Once you can do that one safely, now you're macroing at a high master or GM level.

Rank within your division means next to nothing. Masters league really has to be judged by watching the person play and seeing how they hit benchmarks, timings and decision-making to determine if they belong in low/mid/high.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Stardroid
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom159 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-15 20:32:44
December 15 2012 20:28 GMT
#8845
On December 15 2012 17:48 crbox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2012 17:44 BlessedHammers wrote:
hey all im bronze was rank 3 in bronze and i really really just want to get to silver. well the last couple games i got owned by the same guy who rushed me both times. i guess trying to get roach out for my defense was a bad idea? i saw him doing 1 base bannelings so i knew roaches are good against them. well right when 6 roaches came out boom his zerglings and bannelings came in and owned me

alright well i learned to never go straight to roaches..

next game i see he makes a spire so i put about 4 spores at each base and ended up have around 8 queens that game. i made infestors and roaches to support my infestors and 20 mutalisks came and pretty muchj ust destroyed me. my roaches were useless and my infestors only had so much energy for fungrual growth.. this is what made me mad the most. the entire game he just made air while i feel like i never missed an inject and he still beat me just because most of my units cant attack his units. how do u guys deal with air? i think its especially hard because for zerg just because i see a spire doesnt mean he will go heavily into air units. so its like a guess almost for what i should make. mass hydras to defense ? well what if he only ended up making a few mutalisks just to to kill drones. then i would have a weak army against ground units

rank 5 now probably by the time i get done work ill be in rank 9. oh yea and no replays just because my computer hates me. doesnt let anyone view my replays i try to send and i cant watch them either. just some dumb error pops up


There are a lot of questions there that I feel maybe someone more competent @ teaching then me can answer but for now I'll give you my little piece of advice : you shouldn't worry about your rank at all, just about your skills. If you get better you'll get out of bronze league really fast.

Also, I don't know if people can concur (maybe I'm totally wrong with this one but hear me out) don't you just need to work on like mechanics if you are bronze-diamond? Because most timings / strategies don't really apply there? I mean general strategy might be okay (like don't mass hydras vs colossus and basic things like that) but about like openers and stuff, I think you might just want to try and copy what pros do but don't put too much thought into it as of just right now (at least I think maybe some more experienced coaches can correct me on this one.)


Hi just wanted to give my 2 cents (or 10p) on this, as a low level player just now fighting in Diamond league. In the lower leagues timing is really REALLY important. Having good mechanics is nice and everything but timing things out in the right way reallly does give you the confidence to use your mechanics (whatever skill level they are) for playing purposefully. Now, you'll not be hitting pro benchmarks but you'll be trying to, and 'failing' but that doesn't mean anything in your games right now. If a protoss tries to 2 base all in and you didn't see his gases, no matter whether you are missing 20 drones, if you're still droning when he attacks (whenever that will be - certainly he also wants to hit timings but won't necessarily) you'll be dead anyway! The best way to improve imo is to get a sense of how the game state changes as players tech up and add production, and then you'll kind of 'get it' and the need for mechanics (or interacting well with the game) will be as apparent as your inclination for understanding timing pressures. I have found recently that while simply making units on time - not sooner and not later - when a t or p dedicates to a push, will just own any timing attack anyone up to platinum level will attempt, I've also found that this is sooo hard to do when diamond / master opponents build up their 'pet' 2 base attacks. In fact I'm at a loss. But it still isn't 'only now' that I'm starting to get into this timing malarky, it's been a natural concern all along and it should be for you too.

I read, probably on this thread because I asked a question here the other day and got to browsing, that someone said all you need to do is perfect mechanics against the current metagame, and you'll be a top level player. Well, that doesn't make sense to me working my way up, because mechanically you'll be doing only what you're trying to do to accomplish something, whereas on the 'mechanics first' explanation there is no acknowledgement of this apparent poverty of play, since your play will be poor, but that doesn't mean it's not meaningful or important - in fact it's the most important thing because when you win you are awesome!


So that's a lot of blather about timings and mechanics. The last and most important advice I can give concerns unit compositions, and that is really coming from my watching of Day9 and reading forums, but it's my considered opinions that if you focus on what each player has, or kills you with, you'll get the idea that due to the range of units (and responses demanded of you) that an opponent can have, multiplied by all the times he can hit you with these units, means that you'll be qqing and playing scared. In fact I guarantee it because I crap myself constantly and have to remind myself not to. So when you talk about not going straight roaches, or however your unit decisions are evolving, you're missing the bigger issue, which is just game sense, and the fundamentals that grow from gaining it. Best way to learn is to actually time yourself into an attack, which you can poke with and get full scouts consistently at some point in your games. You'll quickly learn when to kill your opponent, sooner or later, and you'll understand when you shouldn't bother to build those units at all. Sure most high-level players don't tend to get many units at all, but that's something they've learned, so permit yourself you learn this too.


Anyway I'd better load up the game myself and attempt to learn to not be awful! (which I am. OMG am I bad).

Stardroid
Space

Edit: cropped sentence
True wisdom is as valuable as it is rare
AndySCWilson
Profile Joined September 2010
43 Posts
December 15 2012 20:48 GMT
#8846
How do I effectively 10 pool?

Every time I do it I get lost, confused, and lose.
Ezneralc
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden7 Posts
December 15 2012 20:51 GMT
#8847
Hi i have problems vs toss in the lategame i go brood lord infestor but dt drops kills expansions and tech and when i move my army to deal with it the toss just moves furth and take more bases or kill of my spine anyone who has any tip what to do?
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
December 15 2012 21:42 GMT
#8848
On December 16 2012 05:51 Ezneralc wrote:
Hi i have problems vs toss in the lategame i go brood lord infestor but dt drops kills expansions and tech and when i move my army to deal with it the toss just moves furth and take more bases or kill of my spine anyone who has any tip what to do?


BL / infestor is slow, you need stationary defenses at expansions to deal with those kind of things in late game PvZ. Spines, Spores.
Stardroid
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom159 Posts
December 15 2012 21:50 GMT
#8849
An questiano, a relating to something said above by Crooked:

"If you're having trouble holding 2 base all-ins other than immo/sentry, I can almost guarantee you have a macro issue. A good macro benchmark to clock yourself at is to have 3 queens 3 hatches and precisely 60 drones along with probably a small pack of lings (I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20. I used to say 8:00, but people have had time to optimize this build now and GMs will be hitting 72-74 supply by 7:20. If you can't hit this mark untouched by a P, then you have a major macro issue somewhere in your opener which is preventing you from getting economy fast enough to transition into unit production in time for the push to arrive."

I'm one of those players getting absolutely hammered in zvp by 2 base allins. How on earth am I supposed to afford 3 queens with hatches at the proper time, 2 gas at 6 min, rw and evo at 7, and have my bases saturated with 60 drones????

Does anyone have a replay of themselves actually doing this or getting a super econ early so that I can see their queen timings? I'm practicing against the computer and I get my natural shortly after my lings arrive there (as it would go down in a game!), then my third shortly as my lings arrive there also around 4.30.

I seem to have 45 drones at 0720 and 60 looks impossible (I need more mining time and a whole extra inject on 3 bases, surely?). Like wth?

Assumptions!

I'm assuming that my third woudl also get pylon blocked if I sent a drone when the probe would be delaying my natural. Is this correct or does it put P too far behind so that I can assume to always send that drone to my third and expect it to go up? Or will the p likely just delay with a pylon cancel (when the lings arrive at the third, so that I have no benefit from sending the drone out?)



Annoyed and awful,
Stardroid
Space


True wisdom is as valuable as it is rare
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-15 22:21:04
December 15 2012 21:56 GMT
#8850
On December 16 2012 06:50 Stardroid wrote:
An questiano, a relating to something said above by Crooked:

"If you're having trouble holding 2 base all-ins other than immo/sentry, I can almost guarantee you have a macro issue. A good macro benchmark to clock yourself at is to have 3 queens 3 hatches and precisely 60 drones along with probably a small pack of lings (I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20. I used to say 8:00, but people have had time to optimize this build now and GMs will be hitting 72-74 supply by 7:20. If you can't hit this mark untouched by a P, then you have a major macro issue somewhere in your opener which is preventing you from getting economy fast enough to transition into unit production in time for the push to arrive."

I'm one of those players getting absolutely hammered in zvp by 2 base allins. How on earth am I supposed to afford 3 queens with hatches at the proper time, 2 gas at 6 min, rw and evo at 7, and have my bases saturated with 60 drones????

Does anyone have a replay of themselves actually doing this or getting a super econ early so that I can see their queen timings? I'm practicing against the computer and I get my natural shortly after my lings arrive there (as it would go down in a game!), then my third shortly as my lings arrive there also around 4.30.

I seem to have 45 drones at 0720 and 60 looks impossible (I need more mining time and a whole extra inject on 3 bases, surely?). Like wth?

Assumptions!

I'm assuming that my third woudl also get pylon blocked if I sent a drone when the probe would be delaying my natural. Is this correct or does it put P too far behind so that I can assume to always send that drone to my third and expect it to go up? Or will the p likely just delay with a pylon cancel (when the lings arrive at the third, so that I have no benefit from sending the drone out?)



Annoyed and awful,
Stardroid
Space



Hey, I'll actually hit up a custom game and do that right now. It's hard, but definitely impossible. Mostly look into overlord timings and larvae spending.

If you get pylon blocked you'll miss benchmarks.

Edit: Replay: http://drop.sc/284695

Overlord timings are so crucial. 9, 15, 24 (after third hatch and second queen), 32 overlord AND QUEEN, 36, 44, 54, and then sprinkle them in as needed. I got supply blocked a bit too much in these games.
At 7:15 I had 49 drones with 11 in production, and I think I played nearly optimally. A few mistakes and a bit too much idle larvae, but really good enough. If I wasn't supply blocked at 78 like a noob I would've hit well into the mid-high 80s.

My 3/4 gas were a bit late, and I overdroned but whatever, life sucks. I think it's a decent example of gasless 3 hatch, with my preferred queen timings.

First queen injects main, moves to natural and injects there, then goes to third while planting a creep tumor. No other queens move from where they spawn, it's pretty simple really.

7:20 I had 70 supply.


Question: Is it better to delay second queen to get a faster third, or is it better to get the queen first? I always go queen first but some pros like to go third hatch first...seems trivial but I'll take every drone I can get lol

edit2: I'm retarded and forgot to link the actual replay haha. fixed!
Getting back into sc2 O_o
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
December 15 2012 22:07 GMT
#8851
I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20


This kinda bugged me lol. Most standard very cripst immo/sentry all in, they go sentry first and completely skip the stalker. And on the ladder, for a while at least now it's more varied, protosses used to do sentry/immo 80% of the time, so I don't really follow the statement, even though it's not a huge deal it just bugged me.

You should definitely get a medium amount of lings and an earlier RW if you scout no third and fourth gas, but if you scout gases and he goes stalker first and poke, you don't have to get a pack of lings, maybe just like 2-4 to micro with the queen against the stalker. If he chrono'd warp gate it's another story but anyways, you get the point.
asari
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden12 Posts
December 15 2012 22:09 GMT
#8852
How many spores do I need each base vs cloaked banshees and where do I place them? Usually I put one next to my hatchery but one banshee can just avoid it for ever until cloak runs out.
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-15 22:14:03
December 15 2012 22:13 GMT
#8853
On December 16 2012 07:07 crbox wrote:
Show nested quote +
I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20


This kinda bugged me lol. Most standard very cripst immo/sentry all in, they go sentry first and completely skip the stalker. And on the ladder, for a while at least now it's more varied, protosses used to do sentry/immo 80% of the time, so I don't really follow the statement, even though it's not a huge deal it just bugged me.

You should definitely get a medium amount of lings and an earlier RW if you scout no third and fourth gas, but if you scout gases and he goes stalker first and poke, you don't have to get a pack of lings, maybe just like 2-4 to micro with the queen against the stalker. If he chrono'd warp gate it's another story but anyways, you get the point.

I might be misinterpreting, but wasn't he talking about holding other all ins? At lower levels MC's 7gate, 7gate +1, 4gate +1 into 7gate blink +2 are very popular. Hell, even at higher levels blink all ins are pretty strong, especially if you skimp on creep spread and overseer scouting. If you go for mutas and he goes blink all in, you won't be happy.

Unless you mean that on ladder 80% of protoss do sentry/immo, and sentry/immo doesn't include zealot/stalker pressure? Still, I think that every Protoss player should do said pressure, only reason not to is if you're doing PartinG's optimal sentry/immortal all-in.

I'll keep that small ling count + queen micro in mind, I usually make 10-12 lings and just kill the units...

Edit: Whoa, tang vs liquidhero. this will be fun to watch http://drop.sc/284619
Getting back into sc2 O_o
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
December 15 2012 22:13 GMT
#8854
On December 16 2012 07:09 asari wrote:
How many spores do I need each base vs cloaked banshees and where do I place them? Usually I put one next to my hatchery but one banshee can just avoid it for ever until cloak runs out.


If it's a delicate situation (like you don't have mutas otw, infestors far from popping out etcetc) and he's making more then two, don't hesitate placing down 2 per bases.

Usually, you want one in the mineral line, with one queen or more next to it. If the banshees try to poke the hatch, you can attack them with the queen and then retreat to the spore when banshees switch target. It is a little micro intensive, so if you don't feel comfortable, place down another spore, it's no problem really, it's 125 minerals and it's useful later on vs drops (you move them on the sides of your bases.
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
December 15 2012 22:13 GMT
#8855
On December 16 2012 06:50 Stardroid wrote:
An questiano, a relating to something said above by Crooked:

"If you're having trouble holding 2 base all-ins other than immo/sentry, I can almost guarantee you have a macro issue. A good macro benchmark to clock yourself at is to have 3 queens 3 hatches and precisely 60 drones along with probably a small pack of lings (I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20. I used to say 8:00, but people have had time to optimize this build now and GMs will be hitting 72-74 supply by 7:20. If you can't hit this mark untouched by a P, then you have a major macro issue somewhere in your opener which is preventing you from getting economy fast enough to transition into unit production in time for the push to arrive."

I'm one of those players getting absolutely hammered in zvp by 2 base allins. How on earth am I supposed to afford 3 queens with hatches at the proper time, 2 gas at 6 min, rw and evo at 7, and have my bases saturated with 60 drones????

Does anyone have a replay of themselves actually doing this or getting a super econ early so that I can see their queen timings? I'm practicing against the computer and I get my natural shortly after my lings arrive there (as it would go down in a game!), then my third shortly as my lings arrive there also around 4.30.

I seem to have 45 drones at 0720 and 60 looks impossible (I need more mining time and a whole extra inject on 3 bases, surely?). Like wth?

Assumptions!

I'm assuming that my third woudl also get pylon blocked if I sent a drone when the probe would be delaying my natural. Is this correct or does it put P too far behind so that I can assume to always send that drone to my third and expect it to go up? Or will the p likely just delay with a pylon cancel (when the lings arrive at the third, so that I have no benefit from sending the drone out?)



Annoyed and awful,
Stardroid
Space




Hey Droid, I got your message and I'd be happy to break my order down step by step.

In between these supply counts, Its literally just drones.

-14-15 pool
-15-16 hatch
-16 overlord
-queen when pool is done
-after queen make 1 pair of lings to stop the probe from doing anything weird like blocking or trying to make cannons
-20-24 you need to be taking your third hatch by this supply and just around 4:00
-24 overlord
-When natural finishes, make queen there
-Drones 'till 41 when you poop out a tumor at the natural with that queen and then build another queen from the natural hatch while you move the other queen to the third which is about to finish
-6:00 2 gas geysers put 3 drones on them when they're done
-The overlord timings between here are 31 and then 2 at 44
-7:00 warren
-First 100 gas I've started putting into speed with all the sentry-heavy all-ins out there so I'll have speedlings to mob them with.
-If you suspect a 2 base all-in, delaying your lair does in fact help you get out units in time. Don't delay it more than 8:30 though just to be safe.
-at 50 supply, another overlord

At that point, you should have 50-something out of 70 total supply right around when your sacrificing overlord is making its way across the main base of the P so you can see what he's doing. Of course still check gasses like normal and scout things like a spinning forge or a constantly chrono'd robo.

Using these overlord timings, I almost always attain 70 by or just before 7:20. My record so far is hitting lair, speed, warren+evo and 70 supply by 7:00 but that was when the P did absolutely no zealot/stalker harassment which forces a few lings and actually can really cut into economy.

After you macro up to 70, just make huge explosions of overlords like 4 at a time before planning a roach round or 3 at a time before planning a ling round. You should be able to be around 120 supply (50 of that being army) by 9:15-9:30.

I know these macro marks can be really hard to hit, but that's what the game demands of Zerg. We must play perfect so we have a chance to survive against people who play moderately-well.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Stardroid
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom159 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-15 22:24:10
December 15 2012 22:19 GMT
#8856
Thanks Mavvie perhaps a big mistake is I'm not walking the queen but leaving it at the main and getting queens on the hatches when they pop? I still can't understand how you can have these even earlier queens and still be able to spend the larvae? I'll wait for your replay to see how it pans out!


Edit: Thanks also to Crooked for replying to me! I'll try those timings in vsAI tonight thanks for your help! It's really a bit of mystery to me how you guys are getting all these drones with early queens and hatches!!

My game:
http://drop.sc/284696

sux to be me!

Best
Stardroid
Space
True wisdom is as valuable as it is rare
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
December 15 2012 22:19 GMT
#8857
On December 16 2012 07:13 Mavvie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2012 07:07 crbox wrote:
I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20


This kinda bugged me lol. Most standard very cripst immo/sentry all in, they go sentry first and completely skip the stalker. And on the ladder, for a while at least now it's more varied, protosses used to do sentry/immo 80% of the time, so I don't really follow the statement, even though it's not a huge deal it just bugged me.

You should definitely get a medium amount of lings and an earlier RW if you scout no third and fourth gas, but if you scout gases and he goes stalker first and poke, you don't have to get a pack of lings, maybe just like 2-4 to micro with the queen against the stalker. If he chrono'd warp gate it's another story but anyways, you get the point.


I might be misinterpreting, but wasn't he talking about holding other all ins? At lower levels MC's 7gate, 7gate +1, 4gate +1 into 7gate blink +2 are very popular. Hell, even at higher levels blink all ins are pretty strong, especially if you skimp on creep spread and overseer scouting. If you go for mutas and he goes blink all in, you won't be happy.

Unless you mean that on ladder 80% of protoss do sentry/immo, and sentry/immo doesn't include zealot/stalker pressure? Still, I think that every Protoss player should do said pressure, only reason not to is if you're doing PartinG's optimal sentry/immortal all-in.

I'll keep that small ling count + queen micro in mind, I usually make 10-12 lings and just kill the units...

Edit: Whoa, tang vs liquidhero. this will be fun to watch http://drop.sc/284619


Yes this is what I meant, and I don't see any reason to do any other version than PartinG's in term of immortal all in. In a tournament game, building the stalker first just to throw your opponent off might be a decent idea, but as far as ladder goes, doing the safe PartinG's version is the way to go (the one where he scouts and it just a tiny bit later)

Nowadays (I just want to throw that out there) I sometime open fast speed too and try to blindside him when they move out. It's great against greedy thirds, it can force a billion engagements before the protoss commits at your bases (burn forcefields) it's actually underused in the current state of the game I feel like. (not 14/14 to clarify, but either 15h 16g 15p or 15p, 16h 16g)
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
December 15 2012 22:21 GMT
#8858
On December 16 2012 07:09 asari wrote:
How many spores do I need each base vs cloaked banshees and where do I place them? Usually I put one next to my hatchery but one banshee can just avoid it for ever until cloak runs out.


If it's only 1 starport you should only put 1 at each base. In the mineral line preferably, if he starts taking shots at the hatchery and what not you can move it, then cancel the burrow when he moves his banshee away. I rarely make 2, but then normally when there is cloak banshee out on the field your lair should be close to being done so you can just make an overseer.

But generally you want 1 in mineral line of main/nat/third.

If your lair hasn't started for some reason and cloak banshee I would make 2 then.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-15 22:27:40
December 15 2012 22:23 GMT
#8859
On December 16 2012 07:19 Stardroid wrote:
Thanks Mavvie perhaps a big mistake is I'm not walking the queen but leaving it at the main and getting queens on the hatches when they pop? I still can't understand how you can have these even earlier queens and still be able to spend the larvae? I'll wait for your replay to see how it pans out!

Best
Stardroid
Space


The 24 overlord hurts and there's a bit of idle larvae, but it's better than being blocked + floating money at 28/28.

For early game focus on drone pairing and executing the opener perfectly. Each drone should start right when you get the larva/minerals, the pool should start right after 200, and same with the hatch. The drone shouldn't chill at the natural while you're waiting on 100-200 minerals, it should arrive a second or two before you get 300.

Queen timings are important, but I've seen a lot of different ways. 32 overlord -> queen is awesome because the queen starts when the inject is 30/40 in, meaning it spawns perfectly synced with the other 2

Edit:

Yes this is what I meant, and I don't see any reason to do any other version than PartinG's in term of immortal all in. In a tournament game, building the stalker first just to throw your opponent off might be a decent idea, but as far as ladder goes, doing the safe PartinG's version is the way to go (the one where he scouts and it just a tiny bit later)

Nowadays (I just want to throw that out there) I sometime open fast speed too and try to blindside him when they move out. It's great against greedy thirds, it can force a billion engagements before the protoss commits at your bases (burn forcefields) it's actually underused in the current state of the game I feel like. (not 14/14 to clarify, but either 15h 16g 15p or 15p, 16h 16g)


Ah okay. Yeah I see your point, but in the threads/guides on the build they all include at least one stalker to help deny overlords.

Why such a quick speed? It finishes at what, 6:00-7:00? You don't need it until 9:00 at the earliest, why not take a 5:00 gas or something? I guess it's a nice metagame play, and you force your opponent to play defensive, but such an early gas only is worth it against pre-7:00 thirds anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong of course, you're way more knowledgeable than me
Getting back into sc2 O_o
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
December 15 2012 22:23 GMT
#8860
Question: Is it better to delay second queen to get a faster third, or is it better to get the queen first? I always go queen first but some pros like to go third hatch first...seems trivial but I'll take every drone I can get lol


I go 15p, 16h queen then 21h I get my second queen right away, and transfer my queen. If you get pylon blocked and forced to take your second hatch at your third location, I immediately transfer my first queen after her first inject and by the time she gets there, I spread a tumor, wait a few secs then inject (so you do lose a little inject time but the earlier tumor made me actually like those situation. I can get my creep a little past my watchtower on ohana before the sentry immortal hits (maybe not perfectly timed but it has happened XD)
Prev 1 441 442 443 444 445 489 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RotterdaM Event
16:00
Rotti Stream Rumble 4k Edition
RotterdaM905
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 905
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 204
Bonyth 132
Rock 16
Stormgate
NightEnD20
Dota 2
Pyrionflax190
League of Legends
Grubby4497
Counter-Strike
ScreaM2166
Fnx 1761
fl0m1601
shoxiejesuss924
flusha408
oskar257
sgares133
Stewie2K56
Super Smash Bros
PPMD71
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu493
Other Games
summit1g5677
tarik_tv2086
B2W.Neo786
mouzStarbuck262
KnowMe176
ToD155
Hui .113
Mew2King105
Trikslyr68
ZombieGrub61
Sick50
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick54013
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 250
• davetesta26
• LUISG 25
• Reevou 2
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 15
• Eskiya23 14
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2331
• TFBlade1451
Other Games
• imaqtpie1872
• Shiphtur538
• WagamamaTV192
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 24m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
13h 24m
WardiTV European League
19h 24m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 3h
The PondCast
1d 13h
WardiTV European League
1d 15h
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.