EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 443
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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BlessedHammers
Canada19 Posts
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Rovskagg
Sweden46 Posts
Im a 29 master with a good zvt and zvz but my zvp is probebly like 20% win rate, so bad. I have no chance of holding a 2 base all in, no mather if its fast colo or immortal sentry all in. If they go 3 base i have to much deffend and then loose 4 minutes later instead. how dafuq do i beat low gm or high master toss? | ||
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FeyverN
United States104 Posts
On December 15 2012 23:09 Rovskagg wrote: Okey. Im a 29 master with a good zvt and zvz but my zvp is probebly like 20% win rate, so bad. I have no chance of holding a 2 base all in, no mather if its fast colo or immortal sentry all in. If they go 3 base i have to much deffend and then loose 4 minutes later instead. how dafuq do i beat low gm or high master toss? I do something like this build, it's becoming more and more popular among the pros. Here is Stephano's variant on it: Standard 3 hatch opener. 44 supply - double gas 60 supply - (RW if you suspect an all in) and evo chamber 10 seconds later - evo chamber Get speed, 1/1, lair and then saturate your bases. Once saturated, take your third gases and take a fourth around 9:00 If you think he is all inning, then you can skip the double evo and just get mass roach ling. Another possible opener which specializes in holding 2 base all ins (Nestea's style): 1) Fast gas after third (~4:30) 2) First 100 gas into ling speed, next 100 into lair 3) Drone up as usual, take 3x gas at 6:30 4) If you scout no gateway all-in, skip roach warren + evo chamber entirely 5) If you scout robo, Spire as soon as lair finishes 6) 2x gas at 7:00-7:30 If he all-ins, mass spines in your natural, sac third (leave guys mining gas) and basetrade with muta/ling. Reinforcing mutas go to his base, reinforcing lings stay in your spine forest. If he expands, take a fourth and pressure with mutas. Honestly, you should win the game then and there. 10-15 mutas pop at 10:30; no protoss is ever prepared for that. (Credit to this thread) I don't know what else I can say. I'm a Zerg player and I think ZvP favors the Zerg. Anyway, from there I just take my 5th base around 11 minutes and I just make about 8 infestors. If he is going colossus, I get corruptors (around 4 per colo). Then I get mass roach. I can tell you right now that if he does the push while you're teching to Greater Spire, 9 times out of 10 you should crush it. Well placed fungals, kill all of his colossus then remax out on Zerglings. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 15 2012 23:09 Rovskagg wrote: Okey. Im a 29 master with a good zvt and zvz but my zvp is probebly like 20% win rate, so bad. I have no chance of holding a 2 base all in, no mather if its fast colo or immortal sentry all in. If they go 3 base i have to much deffend and then loose 4 minutes later instead. how dafuq do i beat low gm or high master toss? If you're having trouble holding 2 base all-ins other than immo/sentry, I can almost guarantee you have a macro issue. A good macro benchmark to clock yourself at is to have 3 queens 3 hatches and precisely 60 drones along with probably a small pack of lings (I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20. I used to say 8:00, but people have had time to optimize this build now and GMs will be hitting 72-74 supply by 7:20. If you can't hit this mark untouched by a P, then you have a major macro issue somewhere in your opener which is preventing you from getting economy fast enough to transition into unit production in time for the push to arrive. 3 base opening is very safe against these all-ins as long as you play absolutely perfect. If you're really paranoid about like a 7 gate +2 blink stalker all-in or something, make 2 spines where you feel he'll try to attack (probably your third) and continue as normal with drones/queens and then forces later. Another benchmark to hit later is the 12:30 HyuN max on 9 infestors 20-26 roaches and all the rest lings while on 5 base 10 gas (finished and about 100 gone on the 9th and 10th gas by 12:30) with 1/1 done for the lings and roaches and 2/2 on the way for melee and carapace, hive has to be going and spire also has to be going for the benchmark to be properly attained. This amount and timing of army is far more than most P will be able to come up with for a 3 base pre-BL timing. Basically first work on hitting the 7:20 benchmark against like an AI or something that doesn't really touch you except for 1 zealot poke. Once you can hit that every time no problem, work on hitting the 12:30 max timing with ALL those components. Once you can do that one safely, now you're macroing at a high master or GM level. Rank within your division means next to nothing. Masters league really has to be judged by watching the person play and seeing how they hit benchmarks, timings and decision-making to determine if they belong in low/mid/high. | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
On December 15 2012 17:48 crbox wrote: There are a lot of questions there that I feel maybe someone more competent @ teaching then me can answer but for now I'll give you my little piece of advice : you shouldn't worry about your rank at all, just about your skills. If you get better you'll get out of bronze league really fast. Also, I don't know if people can concur (maybe I'm totally wrong with this one but hear me out) don't you just need to work on like mechanics if you are bronze-diamond? Because most timings / strategies don't really apply there? I mean general strategy might be okay (like don't mass hydras vs colossus and basic things like that) but about like openers and stuff, I think you might just want to try and copy what pros do but don't put too much thought into it as of just right now (at least I think maybe some more experienced coaches can correct me on this one.) Hi just wanted to give my 2 cents (or 10p) on this, as a low level player just now fighting in Diamond league. In the lower leagues timing is really REALLY important. Having good mechanics is nice and everything but timing things out in the right way reallly does give you the confidence to use your mechanics (whatever skill level they are) for playing purposefully. Now, you'll not be hitting pro benchmarks but you'll be trying to, and 'failing' but that doesn't mean anything in your games right now. If a protoss tries to 2 base all in and you didn't see his gases, no matter whether you are missing 20 drones, if you're still droning when he attacks (whenever that will be - certainly he also wants to hit timings but won't necessarily) you'll be dead anyway! The best way to improve imo is to get a sense of how the game state changes as players tech up and add production, and then you'll kind of 'get it' and the need for mechanics (or interacting well with the game) will be as apparent as your inclination for understanding timing pressures. I have found recently that while simply making units on time - not sooner and not later - when a t or p dedicates to a push, will just own any timing attack anyone up to platinum level will attempt, I've also found that this is sooo hard to do when diamond / master opponents build up their 'pet' 2 base attacks. In fact I'm at a loss. But it still isn't 'only now' that I'm starting to get into this timing malarky, it's been a natural concern all along and it should be for you too. I read, probably on this thread because I asked a question here the other day and got to browsing, that someone said all you need to do is perfect mechanics against the current metagame, and you'll be a top level player. Well, that doesn't make sense to me working my way up, because mechanically you'll be doing only what you're trying to do to accomplish something, whereas on the 'mechanics first' explanation there is no acknowledgement of this apparent poverty of play, since your play will be poor, but that doesn't mean it's not meaningful or important - in fact it's the most important thing because when you win you are awesome! So that's a lot of blather about timings and mechanics. The last and most important advice I can give concerns unit compositions, and that is really coming from my watching of Day9 and reading forums, but it's my considered opinions that if you focus on what each player has, or kills you with, you'll get the idea that due to the range of units (and responses demanded of you) that an opponent can have, multiplied by all the times he can hit you with these units, means that you'll be qqing and playing scared. In fact I guarantee it because I crap myself constantly and have to remind myself not to. So when you talk about not going straight roaches, or however your unit decisions are evolving, you're missing the bigger issue, which is just game sense, and the fundamentals that grow from gaining it. Best way to learn is to actually time yourself into an attack, which you can poke with and get full scouts consistently at some point in your games. You'll quickly learn when to kill your opponent, sooner or later, and you'll understand when you shouldn't bother to build those units at all. Sure most high-level players don't tend to get many units at all, but that's something they've learned, so permit yourself you learn this too. Anyway I'd better load up the game myself and attempt to learn to not be awful! (which I am. OMG am I bad). Stardroid Space Edit: cropped sentence | ||
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
Every time I do it I get lost, confused, and lose. | ||
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Ezneralc
Sweden7 Posts
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 16 2012 05:51 Ezneralc wrote: Hi i have problems vs toss in the lategame i go brood lord infestor but dt drops kills expansions and tech and when i move my army to deal with it the toss just moves furth and take more bases or kill of my spine anyone who has any tip what to do? BL / infestor is slow, you need stationary defenses at expansions to deal with those kind of things in late game PvZ. Spines, Spores. | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
"If you're having trouble holding 2 base all-ins other than immo/sentry, I can almost guarantee you have a macro issue. A good macro benchmark to clock yourself at is to have 3 queens 3 hatches and precisely 60 drones along with probably a small pack of lings (I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20. I used to say 8:00, but people have had time to optimize this build now and GMs will be hitting 72-74 supply by 7:20. If you can't hit this mark untouched by a P, then you have a major macro issue somewhere in your opener which is preventing you from getting economy fast enough to transition into unit production in time for the push to arrive." I'm one of those players getting absolutely hammered in zvp by 2 base allins. How on earth am I supposed to afford 3 queens with hatches at the proper time, 2 gas at 6 min, rw and evo at 7, and have my bases saturated with 60 drones???? Does anyone have a replay of themselves actually doing this or getting a super econ early so that I can see their queen timings? I'm practicing against the computer and I get my natural shortly after my lings arrive there (as it would go down in a game!), then my third shortly as my lings arrive there also around 4.30. I seem to have 45 drones at 0720 and 60 looks impossible (I need more mining time and a whole extra inject on 3 bases, surely?). Like wth? Assumptions! I'm assuming that my third woudl also get pylon blocked if I sent a drone when the probe would be delaying my natural. Is this correct or does it put P too far behind so that I can assume to always send that drone to my third and expect it to go up? Or will the p likely just delay with a pylon cancel (when the lings arrive at the third, so that I have no benefit from sending the drone out?) Annoyed and awful, Stardroid Space | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On December 16 2012 06:50 Stardroid wrote: An questiano, a relating to something said above by Crooked: "If you're having trouble holding 2 base all-ins other than immo/sentry, I can almost guarantee you have a macro issue. A good macro benchmark to clock yourself at is to have 3 queens 3 hatches and precisely 60 drones along with probably a small pack of lings (I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20. I used to say 8:00, but people have had time to optimize this build now and GMs will be hitting 72-74 supply by 7:20. If you can't hit this mark untouched by a P, then you have a major macro issue somewhere in your opener which is preventing you from getting economy fast enough to transition into unit production in time for the push to arrive." I'm one of those players getting absolutely hammered in zvp by 2 base allins. How on earth am I supposed to afford 3 queens with hatches at the proper time, 2 gas at 6 min, rw and evo at 7, and have my bases saturated with 60 drones???? Does anyone have a replay of themselves actually doing this or getting a super econ early so that I can see their queen timings? I'm practicing against the computer and I get my natural shortly after my lings arrive there (as it would go down in a game!), then my third shortly as my lings arrive there also around 4.30. I seem to have 45 drones at 0720 and 60 looks impossible (I need more mining time and a whole extra inject on 3 bases, surely?). Like wth? Assumptions! I'm assuming that my third woudl also get pylon blocked if I sent a drone when the probe would be delaying my natural. Is this correct or does it put P too far behind so that I can assume to always send that drone to my third and expect it to go up? Or will the p likely just delay with a pylon cancel (when the lings arrive at the third, so that I have no benefit from sending the drone out?) Annoyed and awful, Stardroid Space Hey, I'll actually hit up a custom game and do that right now. It's hard, but definitely impossible. Mostly look into overlord timings and larvae spending. If you get pylon blocked you'll miss benchmarks. Edit: Replay: http://drop.sc/284695 Overlord timings are so crucial. 9, 15, 24 (after third hatch and second queen), 32 overlord AND QUEEN, 36, 44, 54, and then sprinkle them in as needed. I got supply blocked a bit too much in these games. At 7:15 I had 49 drones with 11 in production, and I think I played nearly optimally. A few mistakes and a bit too much idle larvae, but really good enough. If I wasn't supply blocked at 78 like a noob I would've hit well into the mid-high 80s. My 3/4 gas were a bit late, and I overdroned but whatever, life sucks. I think it's a decent example of gasless 3 hatch, with my preferred queen timings. First queen injects main, moves to natural and injects there, then goes to third while planting a creep tumor. No other queens move from where they spawn, it's pretty simple really. 7:20 I had 70 supply. Question: Is it better to delay second queen to get a faster third, or is it better to get the queen first? I always go queen first but some pros like to go third hatch first...seems trivial but I'll take every drone I can get lol edit2: I'm retarded and forgot to link the actual replay haha. fixed! | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20 This kinda bugged me lol. Most standard very cripst immo/sentry all in, they go sentry first and completely skip the stalker. And on the ladder, for a while at least now it's more varied, protosses used to do sentry/immo 80% of the time, so I don't really follow the statement, even though it's not a huge deal it just bugged me. You should definitely get a medium amount of lings and an earlier RW if you scout no third and fourth gas, but if you scout gases and he goes stalker first and poke, you don't have to get a pack of lings, maybe just like 2-4 to micro with the queen against the stalker. If he chrono'd warp gate it's another story but anyways, you get the point. | ||
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asari
Sweden12 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On December 16 2012 07:07 crbox wrote: This kinda bugged me lol. Most standard very cripst immo/sentry all in, they go sentry first and completely skip the stalker. And on the ladder, for a while at least now it's more varied, protosses used to do sentry/immo 80% of the time, so I don't really follow the statement, even though it's not a huge deal it just bugged me. You should definitely get a medium amount of lings and an earlier RW if you scout no third and fourth gas, but if you scout gases and he goes stalker first and poke, you don't have to get a pack of lings, maybe just like 2-4 to micro with the queen against the stalker. If he chrono'd warp gate it's another story but anyways, you get the point. I might be misinterpreting, but wasn't he talking about holding other all ins? At lower levels MC's 7gate, 7gate +1, 4gate +1 into 7gate blink +2 are very popular. Hell, even at higher levels blink all ins are pretty strong, especially if you skimp on creep spread and overseer scouting. If you go for mutas and he goes blink all in, you won't be happy. Unless you mean that on ladder 80% of protoss do sentry/immo, and sentry/immo doesn't include zealot/stalker pressure? Still, I think that every Protoss player should do said pressure, only reason not to is if you're doing PartinG's optimal sentry/immortal all-in. I'll keep that small ling count + queen micro in mind, I usually make 10-12 lings and just kill the units... Edit: Whoa, tang vs liquidhero. this will be fun to watch http://drop.sc/284619 | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 16 2012 07:09 asari wrote: How many spores do I need each base vs cloaked banshees and where do I place them? Usually I put one next to my hatchery but one banshee can just avoid it for ever until cloak runs out. If it's a delicate situation (like you don't have mutas otw, infestors far from popping out etcetc) and he's making more then two, don't hesitate placing down 2 per bases. Usually, you want one in the mineral line, with one queen or more next to it. If the banshees try to poke the hatch, you can attack them with the queen and then retreat to the spore when banshees switch target. It is a little micro intensive, so if you don't feel comfortable, place down another spore, it's no problem really, it's 125 minerals and it's useful later on vs drops (you move them on the sides of your bases. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 16 2012 06:50 Stardroid wrote: An questiano, a relating to something said above by Crooked: "If you're having trouble holding 2 base all-ins other than immo/sentry, I can almost guarantee you have a macro issue. A good macro benchmark to clock yourself at is to have 3 queens 3 hatches and precisely 60 drones along with probably a small pack of lings (I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20. I used to say 8:00, but people have had time to optimize this build now and GMs will be hitting 72-74 supply by 7:20. If you can't hit this mark untouched by a P, then you have a major macro issue somewhere in your opener which is preventing you from getting economy fast enough to transition into unit production in time for the push to arrive." I'm one of those players getting absolutely hammered in zvp by 2 base allins. How on earth am I supposed to afford 3 queens with hatches at the proper time, 2 gas at 6 min, rw and evo at 7, and have my bases saturated with 60 drones???? Does anyone have a replay of themselves actually doing this or getting a super econ early so that I can see their queen timings? I'm practicing against the computer and I get my natural shortly after my lings arrive there (as it would go down in a game!), then my third shortly as my lings arrive there also around 4.30. I seem to have 45 drones at 0720 and 60 looks impossible (I need more mining time and a whole extra inject on 3 bases, surely?). Like wth? Assumptions! I'm assuming that my third woudl also get pylon blocked if I sent a drone when the probe would be delaying my natural. Is this correct or does it put P too far behind so that I can assume to always send that drone to my third and expect it to go up? Or will the p likely just delay with a pylon cancel (when the lings arrive at the third, so that I have no benefit from sending the drone out?) Annoyed and awful, Stardroid Space Hey Droid, I got your message and I'd be happy to break my order down step by step. In between these supply counts, Its literally just drones. -14-15 pool -15-16 hatch -16 overlord -queen when pool is done -after queen make 1 pair of lings to stop the probe from doing anything weird like blocking or trying to make cannons -20-24 you need to be taking your third hatch by this supply and just around 4:00 -24 overlord -When natural finishes, make queen there -Drones 'till 41 when you poop out a tumor at the natural with that queen and then build another queen from the natural hatch while you move the other queen to the third which is about to finish -6:00 2 gas geysers put 3 drones on them when they're done -The overlord timings between here are 31 and then 2 at 44 -7:00 warren -First 100 gas I've started putting into speed with all the sentry-heavy all-ins out there so I'll have speedlings to mob them with. -If you suspect a 2 base all-in, delaying your lair does in fact help you get out units in time. Don't delay it more than 8:30 though just to be safe. -at 50 supply, another overlord At that point, you should have 50-something out of 70 total supply right around when your sacrificing overlord is making its way across the main base of the P so you can see what he's doing. Of course still check gasses like normal and scout things like a spinning forge or a constantly chrono'd robo. Using these overlord timings, I almost always attain 70 by or just before 7:20. My record so far is hitting lair, speed, warren+evo and 70 supply by 7:00 but that was when the P did absolutely no zealot/stalker harassment which forces a few lings and actually can really cut into economy. After you macro up to 70, just make huge explosions of overlords like 4 at a time before planning a roach round or 3 at a time before planning a ling round. You should be able to be around 120 supply (50 of that being army) by 9:15-9:30. I know these macro marks can be really hard to hit, but that's what the game demands of Zerg. We must play perfect so we have a chance to survive against people who play moderately-well. | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
Edit: Thanks also to Crooked for replying to me! I'll try those timings in vsAI tonight thanks for your help! It's really a bit of mystery to me how you guys are getting all these drones with early queens and hatches!! My game: http://drop.sc/284696 sux to be me! Best Stardroid Space | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 16 2012 07:13 Mavvie wrote: I might be misinterpreting, but wasn't he talking about holding other all ins? At lower levels MC's 7gate, 7gate +1, 4gate +1 into 7gate blink +2 are very popular. Hell, even at higher levels blink all ins are pretty strong, especially if you skimp on creep spread and overseer scouting. If you go for mutas and he goes blink all in, you won't be happy. Unless you mean that on ladder 80% of protoss do sentry/immo, and sentry/immo doesn't include zealot/stalker pressure? Still, I think that every Protoss player should do said pressure, only reason not to is if you're doing PartinG's optimal sentry/immortal all-in. I'll keep that small ling count + queen micro in mind, I usually make 10-12 lings and just kill the units... Edit: Whoa, tang vs liquidhero. this will be fun to watch http://drop.sc/284619 Yes this is what I meant, and I don't see any reason to do any other version than PartinG's in term of immortal all in. In a tournament game, building the stalker first just to throw your opponent off might be a decent idea, but as far as ladder goes, doing the safe PartinG's version is the way to go (the one where he scouts and it just a tiny bit later) Nowadays (I just want to throw that out there) I sometime open fast speed too and try to blindside him when they move out. It's great against greedy thirds, it can force a billion engagements before the protoss commits at your bases (burn forcefields) it's actually underused in the current state of the game I feel like. (not 14/14 to clarify, but either 15h 16g 15p or 15p, 16h 16g) | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 16 2012 07:09 asari wrote: How many spores do I need each base vs cloaked banshees and where do I place them? Usually I put one next to my hatchery but one banshee can just avoid it for ever until cloak runs out. If it's only 1 starport you should only put 1 at each base. In the mineral line preferably, if he starts taking shots at the hatchery and what not you can move it, then cancel the burrow when he moves his banshee away. I rarely make 2, but then normally when there is cloak banshee out on the field your lair should be close to being done so you can just make an overseer. But generally you want 1 in mineral line of main/nat/third. If your lair hasn't started for some reason and cloak banshee I would make 2 then. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On December 16 2012 07:19 Stardroid wrote: Thanks Mavvie perhaps a big mistake is I'm not walking the queen but leaving it at the main and getting queens on the hatches when they pop? I still can't understand how you can have these even earlier queens and still be able to spend the larvae? I'll wait for your replay to see how it pans out! Best Stardroid Space The 24 overlord hurts and there's a bit of idle larvae, but it's better than being blocked + floating money at 28/28. For early game focus on drone pairing and executing the opener perfectly. Each drone should start right when you get the larva/minerals, the pool should start right after 200, and same with the hatch. The drone shouldn't chill at the natural while you're waiting on 100-200 minerals, it should arrive a second or two before you get 300. Queen timings are important, but I've seen a lot of different ways. 32 overlord -> queen is awesome because the queen starts when the inject is 30/40 in, meaning it spawns perfectly synced with the other 2  Edit: Yes this is what I meant, and I don't see any reason to do any other version than PartinG's in term of immortal all in. In a tournament game, building the stalker first just to throw your opponent off might be a decent idea, but as far as ladder goes, doing the safe PartinG's version is the way to go (the one where he scouts and it just a tiny bit later) Nowadays (I just want to throw that out there) I sometime open fast speed too and try to blindside him when they move out. It's great against greedy thirds, it can force a billion engagements before the protoss commits at your bases (burn forcefields) it's actually underused in the current state of the game I feel like. (not 14/14 to clarify, but either 15h 16g 15p or 15p, 16h 16g) Ah okay. Yeah I see your point, but in the threads/guides on the build they all include at least one stalker to help deny overlords. Why such a quick speed? It finishes at what, 6:00-7:00? You don't need it until 9:00 at the earliest, why not take a 5:00 gas or something? I guess it's a nice metagame play, and you force your opponent to play defensive, but such an early gas only is worth it against pre-7:00 thirds anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong of course, you're way more knowledgeable than me  | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
Question: Is it better to delay second queen to get a faster third, or is it better to get the queen first? I always go queen first but some pros like to go third hatch first...seems trivial but I'll take every drone I can get lol I go 15p, 16h queen then 21h I get my second queen right away, and transfer my queen. If you get pylon blocked and forced to take your second hatch at your third location, I immediately transfer my first queen after her first inject and by the time she gets there, I spread a tumor, wait a few secs then inject (so you do lose a little inject time but the earlier tumor made me actually like those situation. I can get my creep a little past my watchtower on ohana before the sentry immortal hits (maybe not perfectly timed but it has happened XD) | ||
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rank 5 now probably by the time i get done work ill be in rank 9. oh yea and no replays just because my computer hates me. doesnt let anyone view my replays i try to send and i cant watch them either. just some dumb error pops up
