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On December 16 2012 07:19 crbox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 07:13 Mavvie wrote:On December 16 2012 07:07 crbox wrote:I don't know any high master/GM that don't do zealot/stalker pressure) by 7:20 This kinda bugged me lol. Most standard very cripst immo/sentry all in, they go sentry first and completely skip the stalker. And on the ladder, for a while at least now it's more varied, protosses used to do sentry/immo 80% of the time, so I don't really follow the statement, even though it's not a huge deal it just bugged me. You should definitely get a medium amount of lings and an earlier RW if you scout no third and fourth gas, but if you scout gases and he goes stalker first and poke, you don't have to get a pack of lings, maybe just like 2-4 to micro with the queen against the stalker. If he chrono'd warp gate it's another story but anyways, you get the point. I might be misinterpreting, but wasn't he talking about holding other all ins? At lower levels MC's 7gate, 7gate +1, 4gate +1 into 7gate blink +2 are very popular. Hell, even at higher levels blink all ins are pretty strong, especially if you skimp on creep spread and overseer scouting. If you go for mutas and he goes blink all in, you won't be happy. Unless you mean that on ladder 80% of protoss do sentry/immo, and sentry/immo doesn't include zealot/stalker pressure? Still, I think that every Protoss player should do said pressure, only reason not to is if you're doing PartinG's optimal sentry/immortal all-in. I'll keep that small ling count + queen micro in mind, I usually make 10-12 lings and just kill the units... Edit: Whoa, tang vs liquidhero. this will be fun to watch http://drop.sc/284619 Yes this is what I meant, and I don't see any reason to do any other version than PartinG's in term of immortal all in. In a tournament game, building the stalker first just to throw your opponent off might be a decent idea, but as far as ladder goes, doing the safe PartinG's version is the way to go (the one where he scouts and it just a tiny bit later) Nowadays (I just want to throw that out there) I sometime open fast speed too and try to blindside him when they move out. It's great against greedy thirds, it can force a billion engagements before the protoss commits at your bases (burn forcefields) it's actually underused in the current state of the game I feel like. (not 14/14 to clarify, but either 15h 16g 15p or 15p, 16h 16g)
crbox, it was my understand he was referring to different all-ins than the immo/sentry. I notice most P will choose to build at least 1 stalker. You chrono it along with the warpgate on cyber once its done just once each. Then they spend everything on the robo and just make sentries from the gates. The stalker is for 1 purpose. Denying that overlord scout from seeing the gate count. If you can group about 3 gates up near the middle and hide another 3 somewhere he's unlikely to come in from, you can actually fool the Z into seeing 4 gates + the one at the natural and make them think "oh its a 5 gate immo/sentry expand). Then suddenly there's a moveout and srrrrrrrrr and szzzzzzz.
Of course I'm not facing completely GMs though so my understanding might be limited.
*Edit* Just double-checked and yeah ParTinG always gets a stalker. He doesn't skip it.
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i'm really really tired of this retarded ZvP mu. Much like ZvT against mech, i don't know what are the best units in order to prevent it. Add the fact that i've been losing almost all my ZvP for almost 2 years and still have not a single clue about what i should do with units.
ZvT against bio was easy : either you go for infestors or banes against marines since it's just a no-brainer up until tanks where it gets a little tricky. But that's another story.
However, when i play ZvP, there's just one thing i know about this : 4 lings can kill 1 zealot when microing and so is the zealot killing all 4. But when you add sentries, stalkers, immortals against roach / lings, and maybe infestors (i didn't get one earlier because I was too focused about how to make the protoss waste all his energy of their sentries), I'm really lost.
Here's the rep http://drop.sc/284864
Please help... T_________________T
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On December 16 2012 21:54 RaiZ wrote:i'm really really tired of this retarded ZvP mu. Much like ZvT against mech, i don't know what are the best units in order to prevent it. Add the fact that i've been losing almost all my ZvP for almost 2 years and still have not a single clue about what i should do with units. ZvT against bio was easy : either you go for infestors or banes against marines since it's just a no-brainer up until tanks where it gets a little tricky. But that's another story. However, when i play ZvP, there's just one thing i know about this : 4 lings can kill 1 zealot when microing and so is the zealot killing all 4. But when you add sentries, stalkers, immortals against roach / lings, and maybe infestors (i didn't get one earlier because I was too focused about how to make the protoss waste all his energy of their sentries), I'm really lost. Here's the rep http://drop.sc/284864Please help... T_________________T
Watched your replay. You did a lot of things right; macro was decent, you knew what he was doing, etc., etc.
You went infestors to deal with his immo/sentry. This could have worked, given how much you delayed, but your main issue was that you just were not clean with your timings on getting infestors at. You had 100/176 supply, around 1200/1200 banked, but you were not building infestors at the MOMENT that you hit 30s on your pathogen glands research. Also, your infestation pit didn't go down the moment your lair finished, and you delayed your pathogen glands research by another few seconds. These few seconds are absolutely critical in holding any 2-base allin, really.
The other comments I'd make is that your macrohatch felt late, hurting some much-needed ling production; you got 6 gas but never used the 6th (I think over 4 is game-losing vs this strat, but maybe not when going infestors; still I wouldn't go above 5); you should be engaging him RIGHT outside his base, not at the watchtower, when he moves out; and some engagements had something to be desired, especially if you're just delaying for infestors (don't trade your army, just run around and threaten him without engaging as much as possible). I'm pretty bad at that last point too; I'll overcommit a lot of times, it's tough to do, but if you iron out the other issues I think you would hold in a pretty straightforward fashion.
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On December 17 2012 02:03 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 21:54 RaiZ wrote:i'm really really tired of this retarded ZvP mu. Much like ZvT against mech, i don't know what are the best units in order to prevent it. Add the fact that i've been losing almost all my ZvP for almost 2 years and still have not a single clue about what i should do with units. ZvT against bio was easy : either you go for infestors or banes against marines since it's just a no-brainer up until tanks where it gets a little tricky. But that's another story. However, when i play ZvP, there's just one thing i know about this : 4 lings can kill 1 zealot when microing and so is the zealot killing all 4. But when you add sentries, stalkers, immortals against roach / lings, and maybe infestors (i didn't get one earlier because I was too focused about how to make the protoss waste all his energy of their sentries), I'm really lost. Here's the rep http://drop.sc/284864Please help... T_________________T Watched your replay. You did a lot of things right; macro was decent, you knew what he was doing, etc., etc. You went infestors to deal with his immo/sentry. This could have worked, given how much you delayed, but your main issue was that you just were not clean with your timings on getting infestors at. You had 100/176 supply, around 1200/1200 banked, but you were not building infestors at the MOMENT that you hit 30s on your pathogen glands research. Also, your infestation pit didn't go down the moment your lair finished, and you delayed your pathogen glands research by another few seconds. These few seconds are absolutely critical in holding any 2-base allin, really. The other comments I'd make is that your macrohatch felt late, hurting some much-needed ling production; you got 6 gas but never used the 6th (I think over 4 is game-losing vs this strat, but maybe not when going infestors; still I wouldn't go above 5); you should be engaging him RIGHT outside his base, not at the watchtower, when he moves out; and some engagements had something to be desired, especially if you're just delaying for infestors (don't trade your army, just run around and threaten him without engaging as much as possible). I'm pretty bad at that last point too; I'll overcommit a lot of times, it's tough to do, but if you iron out the other issues I think you would hold in a pretty straightforward fashion.
With Suppy's build you overdrone a little, make a bunch of spines and go straight to infestors. I think you can easily get 6 gases since you have such good mineral saturation.
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On December 17 2012 02:15 crbox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 02:03 Defenestrator wrote:On December 16 2012 21:54 RaiZ wrote:i'm really really tired of this retarded ZvP mu. Much like ZvT against mech, i don't know what are the best units in order to prevent it. Add the fact that i've been losing almost all my ZvP for almost 2 years and still have not a single clue about what i should do with units. ZvT against bio was easy : either you go for infestors or banes against marines since it's just a no-brainer up until tanks where it gets a little tricky. But that's another story. However, when i play ZvP, there's just one thing i know about this : 4 lings can kill 1 zealot when microing and so is the zealot killing all 4. But when you add sentries, stalkers, immortals against roach / lings, and maybe infestors (i didn't get one earlier because I was too focused about how to make the protoss waste all his energy of their sentries), I'm really lost. Here's the rep http://drop.sc/284864Please help... T_________________T Watched your replay. You did a lot of things right; macro was decent, you knew what he was doing, etc., etc. You went infestors to deal with his immo/sentry. This could have worked, given how much you delayed, but your main issue was that you just were not clean with your timings on getting infestors at. You had 100/176 supply, around 1200/1200 banked, but you were not building infestors at the MOMENT that you hit 30s on your pathogen glands research. Also, your infestation pit didn't go down the moment your lair finished, and you delayed your pathogen glands research by another few seconds. These few seconds are absolutely critical in holding any 2-base allin, really. The other comments I'd make is that your macrohatch felt late, hurting some much-needed ling production; you got 6 gas but never used the 6th (I think over 4 is game-losing vs this strat, but maybe not when going infestors; still I wouldn't go above 5); you should be engaging him RIGHT outside his base, not at the watchtower, when he moves out; and some engagements had something to be desired, especially if you're just delaying for infestors (don't trade your army, just run around and threaten him without engaging as much as possible). I'm pretty bad at that last point too; I'll overcommit a lot of times, it's tough to do, but if you iron out the other issues I think you would hold in a pretty straightforward fashion. With Suppy's build you overdrone a little, make a bunch of spines and go straight to infestors. I think you can easily get 6 gases since you have such good mineral saturation.
He didn't go for Suppy's build, he went ling/roach delay into infestors. I'm not sure about what's the best way to go infestors, but it does seem to involve spines (which he did not get).
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I am looking for any aggressive ZvT builds that can be transitioned out of.
Like a terran could go 2 rax, scout a pool first build and decide to expand behind it a little delayed. Essentially, to transition out of an aggressive opener, I feel you would need to be able to scout the opponent's build, see that your attack would not work well and continue a macro game without building the units to attack with. So you are only behind the infrastructure.
I looked on liquipedia and saw these 2 aggressive builds, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Base_Ling/Bane_Bust_(vs._Terran).
Are there any other aggressive openers, and for those two what could I scout that should make me transition out of the build?
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On December 17 2012 14:48 kiklion wrote:I am looking for any aggressive ZvT builds that can be transitioned out of. Like a terran could go 2 rax, scout a pool first build and decide to expand behind it a little delayed. Essentially, to transition out of an aggressive opener, I feel you would need to be able to scout the opponent's build, see that your attack would not work well and continue a macro game without building the units to attack with. So you are only behind the infrastructure. I looked on liquipedia and saw these 2 aggressive builds, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Base_Ling/Bane_Bust_(vs._Terran). Are there any other aggressive openers, and for those two what could I scout that should make me transition out of the build?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran) is really outdated srsly. If your opponent doesn't scout at all on a close 2 player map it could definitely work against really greedy play but that would be silly lol.
EDIT: I suggest just 2 base aggression in general, 2 base fast lair muta is actually giving me quite a bit of success, there's also 2 base roach bane (there has to be a guide on TL search Roach Baneling or something)
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On December 17 2012 16:16 crbox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 14:48 kiklion wrote:I am looking for any aggressive ZvT builds that can be transitioned out of. Like a terran could go 2 rax, scout a pool first build and decide to expand behind it a little delayed. Essentially, to transition out of an aggressive opener, I feel you would need to be able to scout the opponent's build, see that your attack would not work well and continue a macro game without building the units to attack with. So you are only behind the infrastructure. I looked on liquipedia and saw these 2 aggressive builds, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Base_Ling/Bane_Bust_(vs._Terran). Are there any other aggressive openers, and for those two what could I scout that should make me transition out of the build? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran) is really outdated srsly. If your opponent doesn't scout at all on a close 2 player map it could definitely work against really greedy play but that would be silly lol. EDIT: I suggest just 2 base aggression in general, 2 base fast lair muta is actually giving me quite a bit of success, there's also 2 base roach bane (there has to be a guide on TL search Roach Baneling or something)
Guide can be found at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344272
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Is the extractor trick actually an advantage? I've heard / read that it wasn't as good as simply 9 overlord, but I've also heard from others that extractor trick > 9 o in terms of economic. Or are they both even and it's just a stylistic choice? I know Life seems to loooove to do extractor tricks
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On December 18 2012 10:35 nomyx wrote:
Is the extractor trick actually an advantage? I've heard / read that it wasn't as good as simply 9 overlord, but I've also heard from others that extractor trick > 9 o in terms of economic. Or are they both even and it's just a stylistic choice? I know Life seems to loooove to do extractor tricks
It's a stylistic choice, but I think it has been proven that 9 OL was simply better.
Doesn't matter really just do the one you prefer ^^
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Is it really worth transitioning into broodlords in ZvZ? I'm only in plat so maybe it's different at a higher level, but in all but one of my (recentish) ZvZs where my opponent goes broodlords I win easily with roach/heavy hydra/infestor. The one I lost was because I let my opponent get too many BLs and move them all the way to my side of the map, but if I push during that vulnerable time where they are reserving supply for broods/morphing them, or even a point where they have <=6, and I engage at their base, hydra/infestor just absolutely destroys them with hydra dps, fungals and ITs. It seems to be the ultimate BL counter, especially if I scout it and throw in 6 or so corrupters. Even if I can't engage the BLs head-on I can easily snipe their expansions before their BLs catch up. BLs don't seem to be particularly good against mass lings either, so a ling remax split between their bases can also pretty successfully catch a BLing player off guard.
Has anyone found this to be true at a higher level? Is BL/infestor still the endgame army to aim for in ZvZ? Or is it just something to transition into if you know you have a good lead over your opponent?
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On December 18 2012 18:19 ghost_face wrote:
Is it really worth transitioning into broodlords in ZvZ? I'm only in plat so maybe it's different at a higher level, but in all but one of my (recentish) ZvZs where my opponent goes broodlords I win easily with roach/heavy hydra/infestor. The one I lost was because I let my opponent get too many BLs and move them all the way to my side of the map, but if I push during that vulnerable time where they are reserving supply for broods/morphing them, or even a point where they have <=6, and I engage at their base, hydra/infestor just absolutely destroys them with hydra dps, fungals and ITs. It seems to be the ultimate BL counter, especially if I scout it and throw in 6 or so corrupters. Even if I can't engage the BLs head-on I can easily snipe their expansions before their BLs catch up. BLs don't seem to be particularly good against mass lings either, so a ling remax split between their bases can also pretty successfully catch a BLing player off guard.
Has anyone found this to be true at a higher level? Is BL/infestor still the endgame army to aim for in ZvZ? Or is it just something to transition into if you know you have a good lead over your opponent?
I feel like on some maps BL are really good (like Metropolis), but in general, I highly dislike broodlords in ZvZ. If anything, I usually get a few corruptor vs BL and try to land key fungals on his BL. Also you can hit multiple expansion with roaches on open maps.
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to all the people looking for an agressive opener against terrans,
i remember a build sheth did on stream a long time ago. 15 hatch, 16 pool, gas on 17. skip queens completely. roach warren when pool finishes. build overlords and check on your larvea so that at the time your roach warren finishes you have 6 larvea. you should be able to build 6 roaches and go pressure. hits about the time the first 2 hellions are out against a standart reactor hellion opener. kill what you can with 6 roaches and drone like a madman behind it. by the time your roaches get killed or you have no opportunities to do any more dmg you should be ahead economically by far.
can hold 2 rax, punishes cc first hard and even against a hellion opener its a decent threat. if the terran holds it off without any losses it could get ugly but yeah. mostly a build to punish cc first or 3 orbital openers.
sorry i have no replay im at work but i thought i put it out there 
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hi ! Can someone give me one opening against all races to practice . Im total newb zerg. Thx in advance
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On December 18 2012 22:22 ziigmund wrote:
hi ! Can someone give me one opening against all races to practice . Im total newb zerg. Thx in advance
look in the OP, the bottom part that has been spoilered.
Look for this : What is a safe opener versus each race?
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I am having trouble dealing with Terran drops. I will be ahead the whole game, and then when I engage, he drops and I will win the battle, but the drop completely destroys my infrastructure. It seems that I lose to terran every time because of this. I am a platinum level Zerg if it helps in giving advice. Thanks in advance!
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On December 19 2012 00:18 autoexec wrote:I am having trouble dealing with Terran drops. I will be ahead the whole game, and then when I engage, he drops and I will win the battle, but the drop completely destroys my infrastructure. It seems that I lose to terran every time because of this. I am a platinum level Zerg if it helps in giving advice. Thanks in advance!
The best way to deal with drops is
- To have spores in key places in your base (like where the medivac will usually come)
- Have a bunch of ling/banes ready in your base (no more than 20 supply)
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On December 18 2012 22:18 Latty wrote:to all the people looking for an agressive opener against terrans, i remember a build sheth did on stream a long time ago. 15 hatch, 16 pool, gas on 17. skip queens completely. roach warren when pool finishes. build overlords and check on your larvea so that at the time your roach warren finishes you have 6 larvea. you should be able to build 6 roaches and go pressure. hits about the time the first 2 hellions are out against a standart reactor hellion opener. kill what you can with 6 roaches and drone like a madman behind it. by the time your roaches get killed or you have no opportunities to do any more dmg you should be ahead economically by far. can hold 2 rax, punishes cc first hard and even against a hellion opener its a decent threat. if the terran holds it off without any losses it could get ugly but yeah. mostly a build to punish cc first or 3 orbital openers. sorry i have no replay im at work but i thought i put it out there
http://www.sc2planner.com/#ZaaajaaaaaaoAaaoFaaoDaacjoHhjfllllll
Is the closest I can come up with. It does afford a queen immediately after the RW. Thank you.
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On December 19 2012 00:24 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 00:18 autoexec wrote:I am having trouble dealing with Terran drops. I will be ahead the whole game, and then when I engage, he drops and I will win the battle, but the drop completely destroys my infrastructure. It seems that I lose to terran every time because of this. I am a platinum level Zerg if it helps in giving advice. Thanks in advance! The best way to deal with drops is - To have spores in key places in your base (like where the medivac will usually come) - Have a bunch of ling/banes ready in your base (no more than 20 supply)
Just wanna add also I think in late game TvZ (or PvZ for that matter) it's good to get OL speed and reposition them after let's say a viking cleared the path. Even just on the outskirts of your main, seeing the medivac / WP 3-5 secs in advance makes a huge difference.
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How do you deal with the Protoss 2 base sentry immortal push when on 3 bases? Lings are roaches both do very bad against it.
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EPT
