EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 439
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 09 2012 09:51 RaAj wrote: I don't think you understand. Firstly, I know pros make mistakes, but it is very simply bad strategy to directly damage economy to damage your opponent WHEN it relies on your opponent making a mistake. Yes they do make mistakes but what you're saying to justify making early lings is that "people make mistakes" it is bad strategy to rely on being successful based on the fact that your opponents make a mistake. Example: I put everything into a DT rush against a terran, now based on your theory of, 'people make mistakes', I hope the Terran does not scout my base thoroughly to find my shrine, I hope the Terran does not scout my gases or he will find out I'm going dt and I hope the Terran forgets to make an ebay and a turret so I can kill him off! Cos, you know, people make mistakes. What you propose seems inaccurate of the reasoning to why Life makes those early lings. You can make lings for 2 reasons : 1° To have an anormaly big armies at some point of the game. This doesnt rely on your opponent doing any mistake. Is he going to scan everywhere until he finds your army and know how big it is? Not likely. 2° to do succesfull ling run bys etc, kind of relies on your opponent doing a mistake. What can I add here? If a player meets Life, two things can happen : a) the defensive player takes no damage but didnt get the extra ressources from cutting corners, Life lost an opportunity to drone. b) the greedy player cut corners and get punished for it. Now forcing someone to play extra safely is a kind of damage. Some Terrans, for instance, will float their 3rd CC pretty fast to their expo. Now imagine the following situation : helions and banshee are harassing at the edge of the creep. Life know where they are and run his lings by another attack path right into the 3rd mineral line while defending with another pack of lings at home. The ennemy player didnt really make a mistake (he couldnt see the lings if life dit it like he should, and it makes sens to rally at the creep) He was simply greedy, cut some corners, and here he is, lings are in his mineral line. Now compare this with a player that didnt already take his expo. He's losing ressources by not doing so, but he is safe. Who is behind, who is ahead? not so clear. So what is happening here is a kind of mindgame and there is also a meta game influence. Cutting corners is a really common way to play. Many players cut corners and rarely get punished for it. To take an example, you have 3 kind of players : the greedy, the safe, and the agressive. If u play safe on the ladder, you will get behind against greedy players, since they cut corners and you dont, and you dont punish them for it. That is why most players start to play greedier and greedier, most of them want to be one step of greed ahead of their opponent. But then the agressive players can punish all that greed they see on the ladder and get ahead by doing so. but... they only get ahead against greedy players. They will get a little behind against safe players every time they run into good defenses. So agression is a kind of gamble, as greed is. You can get ahead or behind, depends on what your opponent is doing. And much of the time you dont know what he is doing when you choose to be greedy or safe or agressive, since scouting gives limited information. Still, all in all, we can say greed is the most popular play. Agressive players abuse it, that's why they will always have a place in the pro scene  tl;dr : Life takes a gamble every time he makes lings instead of drones IMO. But Starcraft is a game of gamble. Playing greedy is a gamble as well, as well as playing safe (since you risk getting behind greedy players). | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:37 6xFPCs wrote: 'Let's be extra clear: sen did not hold it off, and it's misleading to state that he did. He lost to it, but he managed to draw out the loss well past the initial attack, just like how terrans can draw out a loss against roach-bane by stabilizing at their main ramp by pulling scvs to buffer until tanks come out. Parting only lost to the ridiculous spine-infestor thing suppy did, then subsequently stated in an interview that he made a mistake and should have just pulled back and macro'd for an easy win. People have mentioned some wcs game or something that I didn't see, maybe that's where you've got me and you can shut me up with that. But what I'm saying is that roach ling loses, even the spines-at-third base variant with 1-1 lings that Sen did ok with, and that he designed to counter Parting-style triple immortal sentry. It's a smart attempt to counter it while still playing for lategame--the spines delay and hold long enough to get 1-1 lings, which eventually win the war of attrition when backed by a core handful of roaches. But it still dies, or is inconsistent enough to die to proper toss micro. However, this is not the place to argue about the proper response to immortal-sentry. No one has a good solution, not a single pro player thus far, including sen. So you tell people what you think, and defenestrator will advise according to his knowledge; anything debate should go in the immortal-sentry thread. Let me restate: there is no accepted pro response to immortal sentry that works. So there's no need to behave as though there is. Yes, sen seems to think 1-1 lings is the key, and I agree that it's amazing and gives you a fighting chance and we should point it out, but there is no accepted, working solution against immortal sentry. Your argument against defenestrator is rubbing me the wrong way because you speak as though there is. Sigh. All this debate over nothing, really, because for most players reading this thread, defending immortal sentry is still 90% a macro issue, and the last 10% isn't composition, it's just poor engagements or silly micro mistakes like not moving roaches into range. As you said, even at mid-masters, macro can still make or break an engagement. I want to give my thoughts into this conversation regarding using hydralisks against immortal/sentry. First of all, I want to remind everyone that we're all on the same team here. We're trying to help out newer players with the best advice possible.
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Glon
United States569 Posts
Let's keep the discussion lively! | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
How to defend the sentry/immortal all-in? Well there has been a lot of discussion on this. There is already a full thread on this : Mavvie's Thread so I won't write too much about this. I'll recap some crucial information: The move out happens at 9ish minutes. You need to scout third and fourth gas timing (always in ZvP) You need to burn forcefield energy, engage as many time as possible and retreat. Make him uncomfortable moving out on the map. If the protoss goes unengaged so far and marches to your third/nat, you will most probably lose. I quite like the new OP  Good work Glon and crbox! Looks very nice, and much better than the blank post it was before  Looking forward to being more active in this thread and updating the immortal/sentry guide. Just as a sidenote, how does fast roach/ling ever not work for you guys? I have 100% winrate with engaging mid map with ~20-30 speedlings and however many roaches I can get over there in time, right when he moves out. I even beat MaximusBlack lol, although he did execute it terribly. Here's just a few replays, pretty much every single ZvP vs immortal/sentry looks exactly like these: http://drop.sc/283225 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283226 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283227 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283228 - vs MaximusBlack I can find more replays like this if you guys want, and I'm sure any high master/GM would wipe me off the map with a sentry/immortal all in, but I don't see how this doesn't work. | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On December 10 2012 13:36 Mavvie wrote: I quite like the new OP Good work Glon and crbox! Looks very nice, and much better than the blank post it was before Looking forward to being more active in this thread and updating the immortal/sentry guide. Just as a sidenote, how does fast roach/ling ever not work for you guys? I have 100% winrate with engaging mid map with ~20-30 speedlings and however many roaches I can get over there in time, right when he moves out. I even beat MaximusBlack lol, although he did execute it terribly. Here's just a few replays, pretty much every single ZvP vs immortal/sentry looks exactly like these: http://drop.sc/283225 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283226 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283227 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283228 - vs MaximusBlack I can find more replays like this if you guys want, and I'm sure any high master/GM would wipe me off the map with a sentry/immortal all in, but I don't see how this doesn't work. Keep in mind that, with perfect forcefields and perfect execution, it is exponentially more difficult to engage the immortal sentry all in and defeat it. UNLESS protoss makes makes a mistake, your a forced to counter attack as the zerg player | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
How do you defend a 2rax where they pull loads of scvs, as in >5, are denying the bunker and trying to get a surround the things to HAVE to do to not die. ZvT do you think the gasless 6 queen build, 3rd + 2 gas around 50 supply is still viable? I see many koreans opening up with gas orientated builds primarily for ling speed and a slight pressure to kill some scvs, however I prefer playing passive until I can churn out some mutalingbling. ZvZ Defending 10p bane with a 15p, I always seem to struggle with this an it's very frustrating | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On December 10 2012 14:26 Host- wrote: Ok Glon few questions for you How do you defend a 2rax where they pull loads of scvs, as in >5, are denying the bunker and trying to get a surround the things to HAVE to do to not die. ZvT do you think the gasless 6 queen build, 3rd + 2 gas around 50 supply is still viable? I see many koreans opening up with gas orientated builds primarily for ling speed and a slight pressure to kill some scvs, however I prefer playing passive until I can churn out some mutalingbling. ZvZ Defending 10p bane with a 15p, I always seem to struggle with this an it's very frustrating So: 1. To defend ANY sort of 2 rax, you should: a) Identify that it is a 2 rax. Stop droning and build an overlord (on 16 or 17 supply) b) Send ~3 drones to your natural, and damage SCV's as much as possible c) DENY THE FIRST BUNKER. When you see the marine and more SCV's coming up, pull almost all drones from your main and make sure to deny the first bunker. To do this: 2 drones should target the first marine, some A move into the SCVs, some attack bunker directly d) When your pool pops, build a spine at the back of your natural and constantly pump lings. I prefer to NOT build a queen and continue ling production. If you see an opportunity, run ~8-10 lings past the bunker and intercept rallying marines. e) Be careful with your spine. There will be a timing when you have enough lings to pull your drones with the lings and kill everything the terran has. Make sure to do this before your natural hatchery dies, and try to engage while your natural hatch still has ~500 health (so it can't just be focused) 2. I'm moving away from the 6 queen build (along with nearly all zerg pros). I prefer to take a gas on 17-19 and get out at the very least ling speed. You can pull off gas at 100 gas and just research ling speed, or go for early tech/upgrades (see future build order discussions in the OP, I'll begin working on them tomorrow) 3. You can identify whether it's a macro 10 pool if you opponent takes a hatchery (your first scouting overlord should be parked at the natural). If your opponent does not take a hatchery at a reasonable time (I will edit in the exact time stamp tomorrow, I'm tired), then immediately do NOT inject with your queens and pull both to the ramp. Build a spine in your main, at the edge of the creep closest to the ramp. If you took gas, build a baneling nest before speed. Get ready to hit some snap transfuses are banelings crash into your queens. As long as you can buy time for your own banelings to come up, you're in good shape. Constantly sink your money into lings, and when possible, a few extra queens never hurt anyone. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On December 10 2012 13:36 Mavvie wrote: I quite like the new OP Good work Glon and crbox! Looks very nice, and much better than the blank post it was before Looking forward to being more active in this thread and updating the immortal/sentry guide. Just as a sidenote, how does fast roach/ling ever not work for you guys? I have 100% winrate with engaging mid map with ~20-30 speedlings and however many roaches I can get over there in time, right when he moves out. I even beat MaximusBlack lol, although he did execute it terribly. Here's just a few replays, pretty much every single ZvP vs immortal/sentry looks exactly like these: http://drop.sc/283225 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283226 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283227 - vs friend http://drop.sc/283228 - vs MaximusBlack I can find more replays like this if you guys want, and I'm sure any high master/GM would wipe me off the map with a sentry/immortal all in, but I don't see how this doesn't work. Very wp replays =) These are really solid roach/ling holds. There's no reason why it shouldn't work; those are textbook holds that follow what pros do, more or less. Seems like you target sentries and everything. As far as what toss could do better, your friend seems to like his warp prism micro, but his guardian shield timing and ff's are pretty bad; I think a better player would have much better ff's. MaximusBlack's ff's are much better, but his build is, as you point out, not very good. He gets supply blocked hard. I also can't really agree with your friend's analysis; I think you can macro out of this quite easily =P Also, the timings were all a little late compared to, say, Parting. Parting somehow manages to move out at 8:50 and then beeline for the opponent's base. There isn't a huge delay, but it makes a HUGE difference. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On December 10 2012 05:08 blade55555 wrote: What roach/hydra/infestor will crush roach/infestor most of the time unless the roach/hydra/infestor player engages in a really really bad spot. If you watched the last GSL finals you would notice this to that roach/hydra/viper just crushes roach/infestor. The one time roach/infestor beat roach/hydra/infestor was when sniper did a full surround flank that hyun stupidly walked into. Also btw even when zerg was underpowered in 2010 and people did ling bane they still did 1 control group. Love how you put in patch zergs which is just retarded. I don't understand why you're mentionning the 2010 year. I still see many zerg hotkeying all of their units in only 1 control group like they don't need ,ore because they "can" control them separatively with their mouse. They just don't realize how much gain they could benefit from it. Much like idra adopting stephano's egg style or even the other pros zerg (pretty sure lot of them switched). But hey, I'm a simple master zerg player. What do I know ?... | ||
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hfsrj
Germany166 Posts
What is the current favored injection scheme ? Thanks a lot ! | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On December 10 2012 23:41 hfsrj wrote: Simple questions : what is Stephano's egg style ? What is the current favored injection scheme ? Thanks a lot ! Stephano's egg style means you are adding eggs morphing units to your control groups (check this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSQJGpalufo) Probably backspace method but some pros still use other methods (every hatch/ every queen on a seperate hotkey). Oh and someone mentioned that there is no good counter to immortal all in atm, I thought nerchio (and suppy as well) showed a perfect example how to beat it with fast infestor tech? | ||
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StraTkSloth
United States181 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Oh and someone mentioned that there is no good counter to immortal all in atm, I thought nerchio (and suppy as well) showed a perfect example how to beat it with fast infestor tech? Although this is probably a better place to discuss it (I've made several posts discussing this in that thread as well), I can give a quick answer to your question. My understanding is that Suppy and Nerchio were referring to was basically attempting to rush to infestor tech. The problem with this is that it completely screws your economy and army compared to the standard 3 base opening. You could potentially start lair by 7:00 and have infestors with pathogen glands popping just after when the P would arrive. You use them to put the nail in the coffin, not to stop the actual push as they simply won't be out in time to stop Protoss from moving across the map. Right now we're experimenting with an earlier macro hatch build and a build that HyuN does where he just makes a pack of lings to stop them as soon as they start moving out and then continuing to reinforce with lings until they get closer to Zerg base fronts. Is there any unbeatable zerg rush to do against all 3 races? Without giving you a pointless sarcastic answer (6 pool), there is no unbeatable rush vs all 3 races. The matchups are simply too different. The only one I can really say works across all 3 would be a roach/speedling all-in off 2 base. There's a timing in ZvZ where it can work (but only if your opponent isn't very good) and the same sort of timing exists in ZvP and ZvT (ZvP just before warpgate is done and ZvT just before factory tech has a good amount of hellions out and starport won't have banshee even started yet). If you can get realy good at hitting those, you might get enough wins to get through masters. There's really no other kind of composition other than bane/ling that could give you a decent rush result. Most T and P getting towards the master spectrum will be able to hold these though. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On December 11 2012 06:00 sCCrooked wrote: Although this is probably a better place to discuss it (I've made several posts discussing this in that thread as well), I can give a quick answer to your question. My understanding is that Suppy and Nerchio were referring to was basically attempting to rush to infestor tech. The problem with this is that it completely screws your economy and army compared to the standard 3 base opening. You could potentially start lair by 7:00 and have infestors with pathogen glands popping just after when the P would arrive. You use them to put the nail in the coffin, not to stop the actual push as they simply won't be out in time to stop Protoss from moving across the map. Right now we're experimenting with an earlier macro hatch build and a build that HyuN does where he just makes a pack of lings to stop them as soon as they start moving out and then continuing to reinforce with lings until they get closer to Zerg base fronts. Without giving you a pointless sarcastic answer (6 pool), there is no unbeatable rush vs all 3 races. The matchups are simply too different. The only one I can really say works across all 3 would be a roach/speedling all-in off 2 base. There's a timing in ZvZ where it can work (but only if your opponent isn't very good) and the same sort of timing exists in ZvP and ZvT (ZvP just before warpgate is done and ZvT just before factory tech has a good amount of hellions out and starport won't have banshee even started yet). If you can get realy good at hitting those, you might get enough wins to get through masters. There's really no other kind of composition other than bane/ling that could give you a decent rush result. Most T and P getting towards the master spectrum will be able to hold these though. Actually it does not screw your economy at all. You get the first 2 gas at the standard time, get lair with first 100 gas and build infestation pit as soon as lair is done. You will get the infestors on time while having 55+ drones and 4 gases. Also, this builds includes the pack of lings to slow down protoss . I've made some testings with my pracc partner and was surprised how hard this counters the immortal all in, you should try it out as well. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
I am thinking now that I will go for roach max style or roach/hydra vs twilight (before robo)/stargate since he won't have many immos, and transition from there. | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On December 11 2012 07:00 Defenestrator wrote: In ZvP, what is the correct response to a twilight opening? Also, how about stargate? I am so used to robo openers now that I just do the standard macrohatch/+1/+1 lings, etc., but I feel that this is really vulnerable to zealot/archon allins and such (lings are useless against this, infestors aren't great). I am thinking now that I will go for roach max style or roach/hydra vs twilight (before robo)/stargate since he won't have many immos, and transition from there. I'll ignore the question about an unbeatable rush versus all 3 races -- honestly, really? Like is that even a serious question? If there was an unbeatable build versus all 3 races, wouldn't everyone be using it? O_O (But try a 14 gas 14 pool ling baneling all in if you must try a universal all in) Ok, so ZvP. Honestly, it doesn't matter what you scout in terms of tech, just that you scout if your opponent is going 4 gasses*. * = it doesn't matter what tech he is going INITIALLY. Your reaction will be the SAME to ALL tech builds your opponent goes for and the same for ALL gateway all ins. That being said, there's 2 things you have to check for: The 3'rd base and the natural gasses. If you scout your opponent taking all 4 gasses by the 6:30-7:00 mark, it is nearly impossible that he is gateway all inning you. Given this, you should take lair before ling speed in order to assure that you get lair tech out as quickly as possible. When lair tech completes, immediately morph and overseer and see what your protoss friend is up to (assuming that he is still 2 base) I think one of your problems is that you don't get a roach warren. You HAVE TO get a roach warren. I'll say that again: You HAVE TO get a roach warren, then upgrade speed for roaches. It's a simple necessity in the matchup to defend any kind of zealot arcon compositions like you were talking about. You'll notice that even though pros get 1/1 for lings, they still throw down a roach warren as a precaution. It's also needed if your opponent just starts pumping out Zealots with his sentry immortal all in -- you need a mix of roaches and lings. Hope that helped | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On December 11 2012 07:15 Glon wrote: Ok, so ZvP. Honestly, it doesn't matter what you scout in terms of tech, just that you scout if your opponent is going 4 gasses*. * = it doesn't matter what tech he is going INITIALLY. Your reaction will be the SAME to ALL tech builds your opponent goes for and the same for ALL gateway all ins. That being said, there's 2 things you have to check for: The 3'rd base and the natural gasses. If you scout your opponent taking all 4 gasses by the 6:30-7:00 mark, it is nearly impossible that he is gateway all inning you. Given this, you should take lair before ling speed in order to assure that you get lair tech out as quickly as possible. When lair tech completes, immediately morph and overseer and see what your protoss friend is up to (assuming that he is still 2 base) I think one of your problems is that you don't get a roach warren. You HAVE TO get a roach warren. I'll say that again: You HAVE TO get a roach warren, then upgrade speed for roaches. It's a simple necessity in the matchup to defend any kind of zealot arcon compositions like you were talking about. You'll notice that even though pros get 1/1 for lings, they still throw down a roach warren as a precaution. It's also needed if your opponent just starts pumping out Zealots with his sentry immortal all in -- you need a mix of roaches and lings. Hope that helped Thanks for the reply. I do always get a roach warren, usually around 7 if I scout double gas at nat (although I've faced this one build that apparently this guy got from babyknight where he goes 4gas, 2 on each gas, into 4gate +1zeal into DT into 3rd... not entirely sure how to scout that besides chrono on the cyber). I guess my problem is choosing a unit comp and upgrade path once the first 8 minutes is over. Typically vs robo openers I'll just start pumping lings until he takes a 3rd, then fully saturate, get 5th and 6th gas, take a 4th, and pick a tech path. If anything is wrong or could be optimized in that sequence, please let me know =) However vs twilight I'm not sure if this is the best course of action. It's fine if he's going blink allin I think, but it's difficult for me to differentiate between this and a zeal-heavy allin (like zeal/archon), and pumping lings against zeal/archon is pretty bad. On the other hand, upgraded roaches with burrow are decent vs blink allin, especially with some ling or hydra support, and very good vs zeals ofc, so I was thinking to go +1atk instead of +1m if I scout twilight, but not sure what pros do. I also notice some pros will start one upgrade but then cancel and switch depending on what they scout. And yea I need to be better about getting an early overseer =/ | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 11 2012 06:37 syriuszonito wrote: Actually it does not screw your economy at all. You get the first 2 gas at the standard time, get lair with first 100 gas and build infestation pit as soon as lair is done. You will get the infestors on time while having 55+ drones and 4 gases. Also, this builds includes the pack of lings to slow down protoss . I've made some testings with my pracc partner and was surprised how hard this counters the immortal all in, you should try it out as well.I think our definitions of "screwed economy" might be different here. They might have 55+ drones, but the regular 3 base opener will yield 65+ drones at the least. I'd rather take that difference of 10-20 workers (yes it really is that big if your number was accurate) and actively micro my lings (later into roach/ling) because I'll also be able to expand quicker. Should your opponent actually be going just straight-forward to the immo/sentry push, yes the festor/ling type of build can counter that quite hard, but ONLY If its the 3 immortal timing version like ParTinG. The 2 immortal/sentry all-in timing is less-seen now (because of the popularized 3 immortal version) but it hits a LOT earlier. I'm almost positive if they were to make the slight changes (its not really possible to scout the differences unless you physically count his immortals and hope he doesn't have 1 qeued up) for the 2 immortal version, the infestors would not be ready in time. | ||
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templar rage
United States2509 Posts
On December 10 2012 22:53 RaiZ wrote: I don't understand why you're mentionning the 2010 year. I still see many zerg hotkeying all of their units in only 1 control group like they don't need ,ore because they "can" control them separatively with their mouse. They just don't realize how much gain they could benefit from it. Much like idra adopting stephano's egg style or even the other pros zerg (pretty sure lot of them switched). But hey, I'm a simple master zerg player. What do I know ?... I don't understand why you're trying to attribute using one control group for your army to patch zergs. Those two things have nothing to do with one another. In fact, control group/hotkey schemes have pretty much nothing to do with your skill (or perceived lackthereof in your case of patch zergs) as a player. A lot of zergs don't use multiple groups for roach/hydra. It's no big deal if you don't, since any control group/hotkey scheme is purely personal preference anyway. There is no right way to set up those things. And IDK where you got the idea that roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor, but as blade pointed out, it's just false. Roach/hydra is just a superior army composition to pure roach, and two equal armies will always result in the roach/hydra player winning unless they make a massive positional mistake. | ||
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