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dabuz
10 Posts
http://drop.sc/273210 Once I saw his obv. 2 gate, I cancelled my hatchery at the third (Pylon blocked at nat) and made 2 spines to prevent early zealot pressure from killing me, while pumping a few lings to take out his zealots. My lings + 2 drones weren't enough to take out his lots and from there it feels like I'm behind so I try to roach push but it was definitely not enough. What's the correct response to this? | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
On November 08 2012 08:22 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: What should my supply be when i take all my gasses?It's simple. He opens 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17 gas. He makes three queens and he drones until ling speed is half way done, then he makes nothing but lings. The build is meant to hit a timing before hellions come out. If you manage to kill the terran bunker at their natural you will always force the terran to lift his CC. Keep in mind that The build is not meant to kill your opponent, just to do economic damgage. Once you feel youve done enough damage, you should start droning and take all four of your gases and get dual evo chambers. If youre really greedy, you can take a third base immediately. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:06 whatevername wrote: What should my supply be when i take all my gasses? Not sure, never tried the build myself. Just find a VOD of the build and see what life's supply is. Also, don't be too worried about supply, focus more on what your drone count is and where your tech is. | ||
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MiTakko
Canada15 Posts
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Stipulation
United States587 Posts
On November 08 2012 04:50 whereismymind wrote: Hello, can you help me with timings for: 1 base DT(2gas) and 2 base ffe DT(fast 3rd and 4th gas)? I want to know to refine my timing for spores or lair. Rough #s because there are so many possible ways to go. 1 base ~6:45 2 base ~8:30 3:20 (50+50+100) is the soonest a shrine can complete from when they start their core. (On two gas you don't have enough to make dt shrine when you want to, unless you do something weird like only make 1 stalker) Also 3:20 (25+25(time to mine 100 gas from two geysers)+50+100) from when they take their double gas. My rule of thumb would be to look at the clock when you see either his core, or his double gas off FFE and add 3 1/2 minutes. That is when you need to worry about him being able to make dts. You can probably add another ~20 seconds for warp in and travel time. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:14 MiTakko wrote: hihi, i just played a zvp, and this guy went 1gate expo with no core no cannons, he pylon blocked my nat, so i took the expo at third, which kinda forced me to play 3 hatch opener. so how do i punish this kind of play? i remember this opener from toss is a auto lose if dealt with correctly from zerg's end, but i dont know which opener counters this build. i punished him with muta eventually, but how to kill him early game? i m thinking roach ling allin or even bane bust, since i scouted his 1 gas only. any pointers? If your opponent is foolish enough to 1 gate expo, just go kill him with lings. The theory behind 1 gate expo is getting a slightly faster warpgate while being able to make some offensive units to keep you on the defensive. However there's a timing where the first zealot is on its way out and the wall is still being made. You can attack with 6-8 lings here and defeat the zealot easily. Then harass his mineral line while rallying more lings to where his 2nd zealot might try to spawn. It doesn't work if you don't hit the timing. Also the earlier pools punish 1 gate expo harder. It really only works if you can complete a sim city wall at the natural using probes/buildings/zealot and hold off the initial lings. If you snowball the first lings, you can keep getting more and more in his base since his forge is so delayed. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
Does anyone have a good link or know the build by heart, and be able to produce the general timings of the early game, and things to watch out for? Thanks alot! | ||
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501TFX
Austria345 Posts
On November 09 2012 06:51 Henk wrote: Hello TL. Lately I've been doing the 6 queen build; however I believe the 4 queen opening is preferred among pros nowadays, against Terrans. Somehow I can't really find a viable guide for this; google only comes up with 4 queen builds from a year ago in which things were different. Does anyone have a good link or know the build by heart, and be able to produce the general timings of the early game, and things to watch out for? Thanks alot! That's my personal style of playing vs Terran and I do it somewhat like this: 15 Hatch -> 16 Pool -> 19 Queen x2 + 1 Set Zergings -> 30 Queen x2 Following up with basically droning, until you are starting to pile up 300 minerals to plant your third (the timing will come natural with practice, I don't even know it), and after that at about 6:30 to 6:40 4 gases -> get speed -> 1-1 -> lair. Drone up your third, but start to scout your opponent actively, and then it is up to you, how you want to follow it up. That's my personal "figured out" way to play this matchup after countless practiced ZvT's. For reference I'm about mid-high masters. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:14 MiTakko wrote: hihi, i just played a zvp, and this guy went 1gate expo with no core no cannons, he pylon blocked my nat, so i took the expo at third, which kinda forced me to play 3 hatch opener. so how do i punish this kind of play? i remember this opener from toss is a auto lose if dealt with correctly from zerg's end, but i dont know which opener counters this build. i punished him with muta eventually, but how to kill him early game? i m thinking roach ling allin or even bane bust, since i scouted his 1 gas only. any pointers? A few things are important to scout here and remember your overlord can fly around until his cyber is like 90% done: 1. Is he opening regular forge fe? or is it a gateway opening? 2. Is his gateway opening taking gas or not? (possible 4 gate, 1 gate zealot stalker expand vs light zealot harassment, 2 gate) 3. Hes not making a core or taking gas? 4. How early is his nexus? This can tell you if hes got a cyber or gas in his base, nexus before 4:30 would have to be no gas taken. I believe 5:10-5:15 is normal 1 gate gas expand. 5. Is his cyber later than normal or earlier? how much chrono does he have? 6. Does he get a +1 on forge? 7. When does he take his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gas? 8. Does he not start a unit or warpgate right as his cyber finishes? (more high level) 9. Does he continue to produce probes? 10. Check his 3rd base timing? Answers/Responses: 1. Is he opening regular forge fe? or is it a gateway opening? 1. Regular forge fe u need to check for cheesy cannons around your nat hatch as its building. Vs gateway id suggest not placing the 3rd hatch until you get more information about what hes doing since a good 4 gate can often kill you or get ahead if you overextend. Vs protoss I do 14p15h 15ovie 15 queen, 17 1x set ling, and after 16 drones double stacked in main I rally next drone built to start 3rd base, at 23-24 supply after 2nd queen is started. Vs gateway I'd keep producing queens. 3rd queen before 3rd hatch isnt terrible as u will have great creep spread and quick 2 base saturation, delaying 3rd hatch til you can know its not a 4 gate. 2. Is his gateway opening taking gas or not? (possible 4 gate, 1 gate zealot stalker expand vs light zealot harassment, 2 gate) 2. 1 Gate, nexus no gas is just to do a little pressure with like 1-3 early zealots. Vs 1 gate you can just make a few lings and go on with your standard build, maybe making 3rd queen before 3rd hatch just so you can pull a queen to help defend your 3rd. Not a huge difference as long as you dont lose too much, he delays his warpgate timing with making a lot of zealots. 3. Hes not making a core or taking gas? 3. If he goes 1 gate nexus zealot pressure he will often have a delayed core this is important to scout as you can get away with many more drones if you narrow down his possibilities. No gas obviously means slower warpgate even tho he had a quicker gateway. 4. How early is his nexus? This can tell you if hes got a cyber or gas in his base, nexus before 4:30 would have to be no gas taken. I believe 5:10-5:15 is normal 1 gate gas expand. 4. His nexus timing helps you deduce what is going on that you cant see quite yet. Helps you know if theres gas in his main, if theres a cyber building, if theres proxied gates somewhere, many things. Mostly to know if hes taken gas or not in this gateway first scenario. 5. Is his cyber later than normal or earlier? how much chrono does he have? 5. A later cyber means you are free to drone longer than normal. He might have traded something in exchange for a later cyber like being able to pressure with zealots, chronoing probes quicker, or taking gas early for a big gas sink after cyber finishes (dt, double stargate). Either way this helps you determine how quick his warpgate finishes and how long you can delay your roach warren. Id suggest getting roach warren 1 min after warpgate starts, standard warpgate starts around 5:30 if he gets his gate pretty quick. If his cyber starts at 4:30 and you know he took gas you can assume warpgate starts on time at ~5:20. If hes chronoing probes hardcore or you see him take earlier 3rd 4th gas you can delay roach warren but this is again a 'safe' way to do it if he has ability to make gateways early on. 6. Does he get a +1 on forge? 6. Early +1 on forge can signify a few things. Means a possible 4 gate +1 pressure, possible big gateway allin, possible macrostyle +1 attack into +1 armor, possible +2 blink allin. This may sound like a lot of possibilities but it does narrow down a few. Double stargate is not a possibility unless he cancels +1 shortly after starting it. Standard stargate and dt are a full 30 seconds slower. May not sound like much but thats a few extra drones. A delayed +1 can signify the all powerful immortal sentry allin. Sometimes that comes with 1/1 from what ive seen but usually just a +1 attack timed to finish at around 9:00 7. When does he take his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gas? 7. Protoss gas timings will be much more indicative of whats going on the better the player is (to a point). A good player wont make a 3rd and 4th gas just to do a really early gateway pressure with few probes. That would be silly and it wouldnt work at all. Make sure hes mining gases as they can sometimes be built as a fake. Protoss 1st and 2nd gas tell you how much gas he will have when his cyber finishes. 150 gas = warpgate and a sentry, warpgate and a robo. 100 = warpgate and a stalker. Ofcourse this is only for the highest level and might be thrown off but this is available knowledge. A single gas in the main can also turn out to be a big warpgate allin so if possible confirm 2 gas in the main. 3rd and 4th gas are usually taken between 6:00 and 6:30 if earlier expect heavy tech play like dt, coll, stargate. If later expect gateway pressure and build a few roaches as your warpgate finishes but make sure he doesnt have a 3rd base. 8. Does he not start a unit or warpgate right as his cyber finishes? (more high level) 8. If he doesnt start a unit or warpgate as his cyber finishes, the player is probably hiding an early stargate, twilight, or robo. Keeping track of his pylons is possible since he wont have very many at this time. If this happens make sure you find the hidden tech as it will lead to a slightly bigger problem for you since its so early. Worse players might forget or delay it a few seconds so be aware of that too. 9. Does he continue to produce probes? 9. Check if his nexus is producing probes at around 5:30. Gateways take 65 seconds to build and if he wants to do gateway pressure off a quick warpgate he will want them all started before 6:30. This means cutting probes pretty early between 5:30 and 6:30 depending on the commitment to gateway pressure. It might not be easy to tell if a nexus is producing at first but look at it not producing and you'll be able to tell pretty quickly. 10. Check his 3rd base timing? 10. Be watchful of quick 3rd base, its a big pain in the neck for protoss to get a free 3rd base especially if you prepare for some kind of gateway pressure if he doesnt take his 3rd and 4th gas. Worth an extra set of lings to see for sure that its there or not, also an overlord can usually hover over it as well. So yea theres my big long essay about scouting ZvP I hope it helped someone whether it be zerg for scouting or protoss knowing what messages hes giving to zergs without him knowing. Let me know if you liked it pls <3 | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On November 09 2012 06:51 Henk wrote: Hello TL. Lately I've been doing the 6 queen build; however I believe the 4 queen opening is preferred among pros nowadays, against Terrans. Somehow I can't really find a viable guide for this; google only comes up with 4 queen builds from a year ago in which things were different. Does anyone have a good link or know the build by heart, and be able to produce the general timings of the early game, and things to watch out for? Thanks alot! I'm not sure the build is different from those from 1 year ago. There's nothing changed really, it's just that zerg tends to do less and less queens as the terran are less and less aggressive with their hellions. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 09 2012 06:51 Henk wrote: Hello TL. Lately I've been doing the 6 queen build; however I believe the 4 queen opening is preferred among pros nowadays, against Terrans. Somehow I can't really find a viable guide for this; google only comes up with 4 queen builds from a year ago in which things were different. Does anyone have a good link or know the build by heart, and be able to produce the general timings of the early game, and things to watch out for? Thanks alot! The build varies depending on your mid game choice. Also, you can 6 Queens style too with some OV changes. 15H 16p 18ov 0-3 pairs of lings. 2Q 26ov 30 2Q 34 2ov 45ov (Here you can play around with the build if you are doing festers, Muta, Roaches, blah blah blah) 50 4 gas's 2 evo + roach warren, for walloff 60 either third base or macro hatch. | ||
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aKaKano
United States2 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:04 dabuz wrote: Hi, I'm having trouble against 2gate because I just don't know the proper response. Here's a replay of the most recent game I lost to it. http://drop.sc/273210 Once I saw his obv. 2 gate, I cancelled my hatchery at the third (Pylon blocked at nat) and made 2 spines to prevent early zealot pressure from killing me, while pumping a few lings to take out his zealots. My lings + 2 drones weren't enough to take out his lots and from there it feels like I'm behind so I try to roach push but it was definitely not enough. What's the correct response to this? He metagames you pretty hard. Honestly taking a 3rd if he doesn't open FFE is probably enough to lose you the game vs something like this. If you had scouted his 2gate, instead of that 300minerals going to hatch (even temporarily), you could have had more drones and dropped a roach warren with gas geyser instead. Really you want to delay taking your 3rd until you have some information. You can either do this by drone scouting or just waiting until your OL sees his front before dropping the hatch. Generally what I do in this situation upon scouting a 2gate is to drop 1 spine and take my nat. If I can't take my nat (like in your case), switch to roaches ASAP. Your drone count was really low and that hurt you a lot vs his opener. 2 spines is probably too much and hurts your eco too much for you to recover on equal ground. Make sure you also get your queen on time and keep up with your injects with constant production. Also, you got TWO gas geysers. Totally unnecessary. Practice a 7RR build for situations like this so you have a clean build to transition into fast roaches. | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
So the P FFE and just stays on 2 base and masses up w/ Collosus/Immortal/Stalker while I have 3 bases and getting a 4th too. So I try to mass up on Roaches and then realize that P isn't coming to attack me. I've already hit 200/200 with just Roaches/Corrupters. I want to switch over to BL/Infestor/Corr or BL/Corr/Roach but since I'm maxed, I can't do anything. If I try to attack, it'll be cost inefficient for me since my opponent is just staying on 2 bases. I deny his 3rd with minimal losses since he didn't have defense there. So if I attack, he'll most likely hold it because of better positioning and then he's free to come and attack me. Even if I have spines at my 3rd, it doesn't slow them down too much so I lose my 3rd and 4th. Should I just mass up spines like EVERYWHERE? Should I just sacrifice half my army into his? I find once I've hit max and there's nowhere to attack, I'm kind of stuck because I would lose my whole army inefficiently and then he'll come and destroy my bases when I can't remax fast enough or enough to attack. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:03 learning88 wrote: Hi everyone. I have a quick question about ZvP. I'm in gold right now so my understanding of the game are still not that great. So the P FFE and just stays on 2 base and masses up w/ Collosus/Immortal/Stalker while I have 3 bases and getting a 4th too. So I try to mass up on Roaches and then realize that P isn't coming to attack me. I've already hit 200/200 with just Roaches/Corrupters. I want to switch over to BL/Infestor/Corr or BL/Corr/Roach but since I'm maxed, I can't do anything. If I try to attack, it'll be cost inefficient for me since my opponent is just staying on 2 bases. I deny his 3rd with minimal losses since he didn't have defense there. So if I attack, he'll most likely hold it because of better positioning and then he's free to come and attack me. Even if I have spines at my 3rd, it doesn't slow them down too much so I lose my 3rd and 4th. Should I just mass up spines like EVERYWHERE? Should I just sacrifice half my army into his? I find once I've hit max and there's nowhere to attack, I'm kind of stuck because I would lose my whole army inefficiently and then he'll come and destroy my bases when I can't remax fast enough or enough to attack. In this situation there are a couple of things you can do: one is to tech to either drops or BL's, the other is to sit outside his base with a good concave. The thing is if you're on 4 base and he's on 2, you really don't need to trade efficiently. The worst thing you can do, however, is to let him get to your base before engaging. What you want to do is engage him outside his base, kill most of his colossi and a few of his sentries, then immediately remax on roach/corruptor again. By the time he gets to your base, you should have enough to finish him off. Typically I'll try to do some damage up his ramp once I'm max'd just to trade SOME stuff for his. You can usually do some damage, though not cost-efficiently; since you're up 1-2 bases, this hardly matters. One of the worst things you can do is let him get a deathball (160-180+ supply army). Basically the only armies that can deal with a toss deathball straightup are infestor-based, preferably with BL, or maybe ones with baneling drops. | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:03 learning88 wrote: Hi everyone. I have a quick question about ZvP. I'm in gold right now so my understanding of the game are still not that great. So the P FFE and just stays on 2 base and masses up w/ Collosus/Immortal/Stalker while I have 3 bases and getting a 4th too. So I try to mass up on Roaches and then realize that P isn't coming to attack me. I've already hit 200/200 with just Roaches/Corrupters. I want to switch over to BL/Infestor/Corr or BL/Corr/Roach but since I'm maxed, I can't do anything. If I try to attack, it'll be cost inefficient for me since my opponent is just staying on 2 bases. I deny his 3rd with minimal losses since he didn't have defense there. So if I attack, he'll most likely hold it because of better positioning and then he's free to come and attack me. Even if I have spines at my 3rd, it doesn't slow them down too much so I lose my 3rd and 4th. Should I just mass up spines like EVERYWHERE? Should I just sacrifice half my army into his? I find once I've hit max and there's nowhere to attack, I'm kind of stuck because I would lose my whole army inefficiently and then he'll come and destroy my bases when I can't remax fast enough or enough to attack. Basically this situation only occurs if your opponent is bad. Tbh i think you answered your own question a little there. You have complete map control, more bases, more economy. This means the game is yours to lose. Spines everywhere are a great idea. Sending in small groups of like 10 roaches would also work and help you to free up that supply. One thing to note is that vs the various 2base shit that protoss does these days, lings are often better than roaches. You can make like 20ish roaches to be safe and then stop, and mass up lings. If you send in that overseer when lair is done you can see if it's immo-sentry all-in (robo but no robo bay, lots of gates) and imo go for sac 3rd into mass spine at natural basetrade, or blinkstalker all-in (twilight council working) or he might be doing what happened to you, which would be a robo support bay and no 3rd by 10 mins. In that case you have time to grab a spire (because he might just be coming across the map as soon as he has 3 collo) and then an infestation pit (because he might not). And yeah, if you have the resources and he doesn't, spam those spines. Sorry about all the brackets there, was in a brackety mood. My own question is, should i have corruptors in my lategame army vs protoss? So far i've been getting like 10 to try and snipe the mothership, but i see some people just going for more blords or infestors - what's the best way to go? | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:09 TheGreenMachine wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 09 2012 05:14 MiTakko wrote: hihi, i just played a zvp, and this guy went 1gate expo with no core no cannons, he pylon blocked my nat, so i took the expo at third, which kinda forced me to play 3 hatch opener. so how do i punish this kind of play? i remember this opener from toss is a auto lose if dealt with correctly from zerg's end, but i dont know which opener counters this build. i punished him with muta eventually, but how to kill him early game? i m thinking roach ling allin or even bane bust, since i scouted his 1 gas only. any pointers? A few things are important to scout here and remember your overlord can fly around until his cyber is like 90% done: 1. Is he opening regular forge fe? or is it a gateway opening? 2. Is his gateway opening taking gas or not? (possible 4 gate, 1 gate zealot stalker expand vs light zealot harassment, 2 gate) 3. Hes not making a core or taking gas? 4. How early is his nexus? This can tell you if hes got a cyber or gas in his base, nexus before 4:30 would have to be no gas taken. I believe 5:10-5:15 is normal 1 gate gas expand. 5. Is his cyber later than normal or earlier? how much chrono does he have? 6. Does he get a +1 on forge? 7. When does he take his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gas? 8. Does he not start a unit or warpgate right as his cyber finishes? (more high level) 9. Does he continue to produce probes? 10. Check his 3rd base timing? Answers/Responses: 1. Is he opening regular forge fe? or is it a gateway opening? 1. Regular forge fe u need to check for cheesy cannons around your nat hatch as its building. Vs gateway id suggest not placing the 3rd hatch until you get more information about what hes doing since a good 4 gate can often kill you or get ahead if you overextend. Vs protoss I do 14p15h 15ovie 15 queen, 17 1x set ling, and after 16 drones double stacked in main I rally next drone built to start 3rd base, at 23-24 supply after 2nd queen is started. Vs gateway I'd keep producing queens. 3rd queen before 3rd hatch isnt terrible as u will have great creep spread and quick 2 base saturation, delaying 3rd hatch til you can know its not a 4 gate. 2. Is his gateway opening taking gas or not? (possible 4 gate, 1 gate zealot stalker expand vs light zealot harassment, 2 gate) 2. 1 Gate, nexus no gas is just to do a little pressure with like 1-3 early zealots. Vs 1 gate you can just make a few lings and go on with your standard build, maybe making 3rd queen before 3rd hatch just so you can pull a queen to help defend your 3rd. Not a huge difference as long as you dont lose too much, he delays his warpgate timing with making a lot of zealots. 3. Hes not making a core or taking gas? 3. If he goes 1 gate nexus zealot pressure he will often have a delayed core this is important to scout as you can get away with many more drones if you narrow down his possibilities. No gas obviously means slower warpgate even tho he had a quicker gateway. 4. How early is his nexus? This can tell you if hes got a cyber or gas in his base, nexus before 4:30 would have to be no gas taken. I believe 5:10-5:15 is normal 1 gate gas expand. 4. His nexus timing helps you deduce what is going on that you cant see quite yet. Helps you know if theres gas in his main, if theres a cyber building, if theres proxied gates somewhere, many things. Mostly to know if hes taken gas or not in this gateway first scenario. 5. Is his cyber later than normal or earlier? how much chrono does he have? 5. A later cyber means you are free to drone longer than normal. He might have traded something in exchange for a later cyber like being able to pressure with zealots, chronoing probes quicker, or taking gas early for a big gas sink after cyber finishes (dt, double stargate). Either way this helps you determine how quick his warpgate finishes and how long you can delay your roach warren. Id suggest getting roach warren 1 min after warpgate starts, standard warpgate starts around 5:30 if he gets his gate pretty quick. If his cyber starts at 4:30 and you know he took gas you can assume warpgate starts on time at ~5:20. If hes chronoing probes hardcore or you see him take earlier 3rd 4th gas you can delay roach warren but this is again a 'safe' way to do it if he has ability to make gateways early on. 6. Does he get a +1 on forge? 6. Early +1 on forge can signify a few things. Means a possible 4 gate +1 pressure, possible big gateway allin, possible macrostyle +1 attack into +1 armor, possible +2 blink allin. This may sound like a lot of possibilities but it does narrow down a few. Double stargate is not a possibility unless he cancels +1 shortly after starting it. Standard stargate and dt are a full 30 seconds slower. May not sound like much but thats a few extra drones. A delayed +1 can signify the all powerful immortal sentry allin. Sometimes that comes with 1/1 from what ive seen but usually just a +1 attack timed to finish at around 9:00 7. When does he take his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gas? 7. Protoss gas timings will be much more indicative of whats going on the better the player is (to a point). A good player wont make a 3rd and 4th gas just to do a really early gateway pressure with few probes. That would be silly and it wouldnt work at all. Make sure hes mining gases as they can sometimes be built as a fake. Protoss 1st and 2nd gas tell you how much gas he will have when his cyber finishes. 150 gas = warpgate and a sentry, warpgate and a robo. 100 = warpgate and a stalker. Ofcourse this is only for the highest level and might be thrown off but this is available knowledge. A single gas in the main can also turn out to be a big warpgate allin so if possible confirm 2 gas in the main. 3rd and 4th gas are usually taken between 6:00 and 6:30 if earlier expect heavy tech play like dt, coll, stargate. If later expect gateway pressure and build a few roaches as your warpgate finishes but make sure he doesnt have a 3rd base. 8. Does he not start a unit or warpgate right as his cyber finishes? (more high level) 8. If he doesnt start a unit or warpgate as his cyber finishes, the player is probably hiding an early stargate, twilight, or robo. Keeping track of his pylons is possible since he wont have very many at this time. If this happens make sure you find the hidden tech as it will lead to a slightly bigger problem for you since its so early. Worse players might forget or delay it a few seconds so be aware of that too. 9. Does he continue to produce probes? 9. Check if his nexus is producing probes at around 5:30. Gateways take 65 seconds to build and if he wants to do gateway pressure off a quick warpgate he will want them all started before 6:30. This means cutting probes pretty early between 5:30 and 6:30 depending on the commitment to gateway pressure. It might not be easy to tell if a nexus is producing at first but look at it not producing and you'll be able to tell pretty quickly. 10. Check his 3rd base timing? 10. Be watchful of quick 3rd base, its a big pain in the neck for protoss to get a free 3rd base especially if you prepare for some kind of gateway pressure if he doesnt take his 3rd and 4th gas. Worth an extra set of lings to see for sure that its there or not, also an overlord can usually hover over it as well. So yea theres my big long essay about scouting ZvP I hope it helped someone whether it be zerg for scouting or protoss knowing what messages hes giving to zergs without him knowing. Let me know if you liked it pls <3 I play zerg in midmaster but so few protoss go gateway first nowadays that I have no idea how to respond to it, thank you very much for all the details it'll help a lot! | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:14 MiTakko wrote: hihi, i just played a zvp, and this guy went 1gate expo with no core no cannons, he pylon blocked my nat, so i took the expo at third, which kinda forced me to play 3 hatch opener. so how do i punish this kind of play? i remember this opener from toss is a auto lose if dealt with correctly from zerg's end, but i dont know which opener counters this build. i punished him with muta eventually, but how to kill him early game? i m thinking roach ling allin or even bane bust, since i scouted his 1 gas only. any pointers? if you want to hardcounter a 1 gate gas expo you can go 14g14p but theres a chance he will not open with gateway and theres a high chance he will see your gas pool opening and choose to do a slightly later 2-3 gate expand. Speedling opening is good vs gateway opening but 98+% of protoss are opening forge fe so id rather keep doing 14p15h | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:47 Zrana wrote: My own question is, should i have corruptors in my lategame army vs protoss? So far i've been getting like 10 to try and snipe the mothership, but i see some people just going for more blords or infestors - what's the best way to go? I've seen pros take various approaches to this; it seems like more and more they veer away from using corruptors to fight colossi, but some still do it. This depends mostly on how good your infestor control is. If you're good with neuraling the mothership and splitting your forces, then corruptors are less important; otherwise the reverse is true. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:55 NeonFox wrote: I play zerg in midmaster but so few protoss go gateway first nowadays that I have no idea how to respond to it, thank you very much for all the details it'll help a lot! Not sure if this'll help you at mid-master, but to open once you scout gate-first, get gas ASAP. If he gets a fast expansion, oftentimes you can punish this with just lings off of 2hatch while getting speed, but if he walls off and/or gets a forge/cannon, this is more difficult. Still if you go ling allin vs his gate-first while expanding, you can oftentimes win outright since he has no cannons to stop your lings and 1 gateway cannot match the production of constant lings. If he delays expansion, he could be going for some kind of 1-base allin (4gate, VR allin, 1-base immo allin). Just sac an OL at around 4:00~4:30ish or so to see what's going on and scout his front for chronos on the cyber. In general it helps to have fairly early roaches to deal with any pressure/allin he may be doing off of 1 base, and stay on 2base until he expands. If he does expand immediately and you do not pressure, know that he can be doing a gateway allin earlier since he went gate-first if he follows it with a cyber. This means you need to get a roach warren earlier and maybe a spine at your 3rd. One mistake that some Z players make is to get a 3rd before knowing if it's forge-1st or gate-1st when they're pylon-blocked. Make sure you know beforehand; otherwise you can get metagame'd pretty hard. A simple 4gate is fairly difficult to defend if you have to cancel your 3rd. That's why I think it's better to drone-scout on 4 player maps. | ||
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