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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
by roach harass i mean getting 4-8ish roaches to pick away at the outer buildings, without planning to actually kill the protoss; just leaving him wondering whether you're planning a full assault or not. is that worth doing? also any good VoDs/replays of it would be nice to see. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On November 10 2012 10:43 zlefin wrote: Is using roach harass viable vs FFE? by roach harass i mean getting 4-8ish roaches to pick away at the outer buildings, without planning to actually kill the protoss; just leaving him wondering whether you're planning a full assault or not. is that worth doing? also any good VoDs/replays of it would be nice to see. I dont think so. The only semi viable build is 7rr but its an all in, not a pressure build. Usually the building placement is good enough for toss to defend with cannon + ffs without any loses and getting roaches early will cost you a lot of economy. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 10 2012 10:43 zlefin wrote: Is using roach harass viable vs FFE? by roach harass i mean getting 4-8ish roaches to pick away at the outer buildings, without planning to actually kill the protoss; just leaving him wondering whether you're planning a full assault or not. is that worth doing? also any good VoDs/replays of it would be nice to see. The only time I'd advise this is if his cannon placement sucks (you can easily see this with an overlord). Then picking off his forge/cyber can be pretty helpful. Otherwise, allin or nothin'. If you're not killing probes, the amount of workers you have to sacrifice to do this is in no way even. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On November 10 2012 10:43 zlefin wrote: Is using roach harass viable vs FFE? by roach harass i mean getting 4-8ish roaches to pick away at the outer buildings, without planning to actually kill the protoss; just leaving him wondering whether you're planning a full assault or not. is that worth doing? also any good VoDs/replays of it would be nice to see. You cut a lot of workers to get the roaches. You need to do more damage (or force damage) than your worker losses. and it won't happen. You'll almost always have a bigger worker lead if you just droned normally instead of trying something cute. You'll force 1-2 extra cannons and he'll make sentries. you'll be down about 15 drones. If you want to break him, go all-in. If you want to get ahead of him, drone up and play a normal game. There are very few situations where the roaches would pay for themselves, and I'd say that all the maps where it might have worked are no longer being played. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
When I was playing the way most zergs were playing was something like: ZvP: Open Pool/Hatch into either a big hydra roach ball or some type of ling heavy faster tech build ZvT: Muta into double expand and to a broodlord army ZvZ: Roach timings or sometimes mass mutas. I'd really like to start using good builds right away, so If someone could link me to a few vods that represent a pretty standard way to play each ZvT ZvP and ZvZ i'd be appreciative. Thanks. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 10 2012 15:09 Arisen wrote: Im getting back into the game after quite a long break. I haven't really been playing more than very very casually (if at all) since GM was just being added. I was a zerg player so I'm probably going to keep playing zerg although I'm having problems getting back into things. When I was playing the way most zergs were playing was something like: ZvP: Open Pool/Hatch into either a big hydra roach ball or some type of ling heavy faster tech build ZvT: Muta into double expand and to a broodlord army ZvZ: Roach timings or sometimes mass mutas. I'd really like to start using good builds right away, so If someone could link me to a few vods that represent a pretty standard way to play each ZvT ZvP and ZvZ i'd be appreciative. Thanks. DH Valencia has some good stuff: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371538 Also you can search "replay packs" up above and get some from some high-level zergs. | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
Are there any build order wins vs 11 Barracks, Barracks that aren't overly commital, like 10 Pooling? | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On November 10 2012 16:47 MoonCricket wrote: I'm getting murdered in ZvT vs 11 Barracks, Barracks and a Marine Bunker rush, in a standard 9 Overlord,15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool build at what time do I have to Drone scout in order to be able to stop it from becomming the opponent's default play, 13ish? Are there any advantages in Droning to 10, doing an Extract trick and scouting with the 11th Drone or building a Spawning Pool on 11 and Hatchery on 18 for a faster Queen and Zerglings at the cost of Creep Spread? Are there any build order wins vs 11 Barracks, Barracks that aren't overly commital, like 10 Pooling? theres 14p15h on 2 player maps where your overlord will know if its a big scv allin and you can make 3x sets of lings to shut it down bigtime. I believe its 14p15h drone, 15/18 queen, 17/18 overlord and shortly you will see if he is 2 raxing and u can cancel queen real quick and make 3x sets of lings then start queen again and continue as normal. It adds up to your 17th drone popping out right after you get 16 workers on minerals right when your natural pops so there isnt much wasted mining time at all. Ive seen grandmaster players like massan do it vs terran on scary 2 rax maps ^^ | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On November 10 2012 16:47 MoonCricket wrote: I'm getting murdered in ZvT vs 11 Barracks, Barracks and a Marine Bunker rush, in a standard 9 Overlord,15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool build at what time do I have to Drone scout in order to be able to stop it from becomming the opponent's default play, 13ish? Are there any advantages in Droning to 10, doing an Extract trick and scouting with the 11th Drone or building a Spawning Pool on 11 and Hatchery on 18 for a faster Queen and Zerglings at the cost of Creep Spread? Are there any build order wins vs 11 Barracks, Barracks that aren't overly commital, like 10 Pooling? 16 pool after hatch is pretty much a BO loss to 11/11 rax with SCVs pulled. It's possible to win with a perfect drone mineral drill, but even then it's hard. 14 hatch 14 pool (after hatch) is generally safe vs terran. Build a sunken asap if you scout 2 rax. When the sunken finishes burrow it just in range of the bunker, then make an attack with everything you've got before the hatch dies. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
This is a build idra does a lot. | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
Also, considering 11 Spawning Pool isn't that far off from 15 Hatchery in terms of economy and 15 Hatchery requires a Drone scout, can I just 11 Pool or does it basically die without Creep being laid down for the Spine Crawler? Edit: The Idra build looks interesting, I'll have to check it out. Thanks. | ||
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Siggeh
Norway71 Posts
This game was close but I happen to lose every time and now i'm on a huge tilt. Losing to low apm a-move allin all the time is so fucking frustrating and I have no clue on how to improve to not lose vs this on this map. http://drop.sc/273987 I'm currently around rank 20 master EU zerg. I was top 8 but builds like this is holding me back. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
Drone scouting before 11 will get to the terran base too early. This is because you will get there before a cc first build. and Wont know if its proxy rax's or cc first. So you will panic and lose if you flip the coin wrong. Dront scout at 12-15. 12 will get to the other base to see 1 rax expand, cc first or proxy. If you see a proxy, you can hard counter it with 7rr if you have not put down the hatch at your natural. If your hatch is down, you can stay gasless, make 1 queen, and 2 spines. Drone pull of the bunker is in range of your hatches/spines. If they are not. put the spines in a good place and drone up. | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
I saw many pro players in their stream going hatch first/ 15 pool-15 hatch, baneling nest and spine crawler at roughly 30 supply, ling speed than lair at about 6 min and then 2 or 3 more gas.. i prefer playing roach/infestor style than muta/ling.. do u have some general suggestions? | ||
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501TFX
Austria345 Posts
On November 11 2012 02:33 Tribuno wrote: how do u play a safe macro style in ZvZ? I saw many pro players in their stream going hatch first/ 15 pool-15 hatch, baneling nest and spine crawler at roughly 30 supply, ling speed than lair at about 6 min and then 2 or 3 more gas.. i prefer playing roach/infestor style than muta/ling.. do u have some general suggestions? Out of my experience, ZvZ is a very experienced based matchup, what you described what pros do works pretty well, if you know what can be thrown against you. It's all about scouting (9 scout f.e. to see if your 15 hatch is save, pros won't do that, since most tournament Zergs don't do that more than 1 time in a match). Your lair timing depends heavily on your gameplan: Want to play mutas? Get fast gas and a fast lair. Want to play roach heavy? Get your third before your lair. All these little things add up, and will get you to your good ZvZ ... as I mentioned, this matchup is purely about experience and scouting imo. Think of a playstyle / gameplan you like, and start doing and improving it with every ZvZ! | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 11 2012 02:33 Tribuno wrote: how do u play a safe macro style in ZvZ? I saw many pro players in their stream going hatch first/ 15 pool-15 hatch, baneling nest and spine crawler at roughly 30 supply, ling speed than lair at about 6 min and then 2 or 3 more gas.. i prefer playing roach/infestor style than muta/ling.. do u have some general suggestions? For tech expand build. you get your third aroudn 8 min. and you must drop the build if you are being rushed, make units, and then go back toyoru build. ofc. 15/16 hatch/pool, pool/hatch will be similar eco. 15p 16H 15ov 18gas Queen and 0- 3 pairs of lings 21 queen( first is nearly done) 23ov Send first queen down after inject (Bane next before speed if they did not go for a 2nd base, or is 14 14 sling expand) If same as you or hatch first. (Build changes depending on how many lings you made from here) Ling speed 32 ov or 32ov ling speed Bane nest 40ov Lair, 48ov 50 get 3 more gas, 2 evo's drone to 60. Decide on your mid game of choice You may need to wall off with evo's and safty roach warren depending on how the game goes. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
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BlackDraft
United States64 Posts
On November 11 2012 00:11 Siggeh wrote: Ok this is so fucking amazing, I have no clue on how to defend this sentry immortal 2 base allin from protoss on cloud kingdom. Hey Siggeh, masters Zerg (most likely lower than you). I have had a lot of success recently with Nestea's muta build. Since all Protoss are going for the 6:30 3rd and 4th gas, if you see that you can skip the roach warren/roaches altogether and play super greedy until mutas. I have yet to work out an exact evo timing but i tend to play it safe. Discussions & Link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339136 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67537 I spam lings from 9 mins to delay the push and spine up my natural hardcore. I protect my spire with a spore crawler in case they are delaying push for observer first. This also helps if they are going six gate immortal expo, because it helps prevent them getting sight of the spire either way. When they push out your mutas should be popping, then go for the basetrade. In that gom link there is a vid of this style v. both stargate opening and sentry/immortal all in. Make sure you get a couple drones out for the basetrade. I'm sure reading some of the TL comments/watching the vods/watching add'l replays in the TL threads will give you better insight than I can. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:37 whatevername wrote: Why are roach/baneling drop builds not used in ZVP anymore? Strengths, weaknesses? One of the main reasons baneling drops became less used against the Protoss ball was that baneling drops used to explode on what they dropped on, however, blizzard changed that so now they drop to the outside of the ball, often missing the sentries etc. Roach drops are still used, not often, especially on maps like entombed valley. I have seen TLO on his stream doing roach baneling drops on a base, however he uses about 8 banes just to drop on the mineral line while dropping roaches on the army, it is quite effective! | ||
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