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On November 14 2012 09:28 Mavvie wrote: Thanks for the reply!
I don't know, I watched Hyun vs Parting and basically every game he maxes on roach/ling/infestor, getting hive after 8 infestors. This is what I do. The difference is that he actually never attacked, he just threatened counters/runbys to buy time for broodlords (which didn't work on Ohana).
What do you think about getting drops? It's a 300/300 investment...but he can't move out, and it's straight minerals after that 300/300. Seems like a good way to be aggressive.
I guess I'll try infestor/spine turtle more. What I meant by losing my fourth was I'll secure it, drone hard, spine/infestor up while teching, but I can't afford to spine up everywhere. For example, Ohana. It takes about 15 spines to secure my first 3 bases, and I have a great concave. Unfortunately, the fourth is in the middle of fucking nowhere. Do I need an additional 10 spines JUST at my fourth? Seems like it's not worth it. I generally skip them and lose my fourth to his colossus timing.
Thanks for the other advice, seems relevant and useful I'll try to remember.
I didn't see the Hyun vs Parting games this way. The Ohana game was kind of weird (he opened with a moderately successful 10pool into what was more or less an even game), and then max'd on roach/ling/festor/corruptor. In that engagement on Ohana, I thought he overcommitted with his forces and lost all his corruptors to kill the colossi, letting the rest of his forces die to good FF's. If he had pulled back and not engaged there, I think he could have won the fight and the game.
I was really struck by how little Hyun relies on spines, which is what I see more or less every other pro do. He's aggressive when he wants to be with moderate success, but for the most part he seemed to go toe-to-toe with the 3-base colossi timing with roach/ling/festor/corruptor with minimal help from spines (I think there was 1 game, I want to say on Daybreak, where he did actually spine up).
I really liked his style in those games; spining up on 4base is soooooo boring, and just feels against the spirit of zerg to me =P
I've been experimenting with an alternate style that goes fast roach/ling drops once lair is finished and toss takes his 3rd. I use this to buy time to tech to hive and get banelings in the process. In the midgame, I hold with roach/baneling (I would bane rain, but I suck at it). Once hive finishes, I go mostly ultra/ling/speedbane, which is a very potent combo (it decimates stalker/colossus balls), and add hydras if he goes heavy into immo/archon play. Ups are also pretty fast using this style. It's really fun to play, has harass/aggressive options in the midgame, and seems pretty decent. Worth a shot if you want something different.
On November 12 2012 13:49 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, I'm so lost in ZvP. It seems like all the midgame options suck dick if your opponent scouts properly, and plays a safe macro game with simcity. I'll go through the options and the problems I have:
1) Roach/ling max: It's not 2011; this is super all-in, and won't work unless my opponent sucks (and at mid-high masters they don't). Obviously not a viable option.
2) Mutas: It's okay, but if scouted IMO it's not worth it. A few cannons around their base, fast blink, and then they hit a storm timing before your broodlords are out and you lose. I've had decent success with muta/ling/bane all ins (off 5 bases, but I call it "all in" because there's no transition) where I either kill him or I remax and either kill him or lose. I've never had success with only making ~12 mutas and then transitioning, they don't do enough damage and then die too quickly. Am I missing something here about how to execute this effectively?
3) Infestor/roach/ling aggression: I've actually lost every game I do this, except when Protoss is stupid and either skips simcity or pushes out before 14:00. Not sure what to say about this...I drone up really quick, get infestors quick, and attack when I near max with roach/ling/infestor. Here's a standard game: http://drop.sc/274607 it's against HwangSin so I didn't stand a chance, but this is what most games look like anyway (except the 12:00 mothership). What am I missing here? It's obviously an effective style, but I'm clearly not doing it right.
4) Infestor/spine turtle: I can never defend 4 bases with spines, only 3 (at least not without having huge holes). I'm kind of lost on how to play this style, it seems pretty lame. 3 base infestor/blord can't afford 3/3 or double spire, so I would die to a followup stalker/colo/archon push...I don't have a replay of this, sorry, but I can explain what usually happens. I go up to 80 drones, get 6 infestors, and have broodlords ready at 14:00. His push hits as broodlords morph, the spine/infestor keeps me alive. Then, I push his army back, but he has me contained on 3 bases (he's on 3 himself, and he can expand). When I move out to take a fourth, he blinks under me and has 1000 archons and colossi so the broodlords and lings do no damage, and fungal doesn't kill stalkers quickly enough. If I try to prevent a blink, the colossi eat my infestors, and it's just not a good time. Do I have to spine push to take my fourth? Do I need to set up a big runby to delay him more, so my broodlords are up in time to defend my fourth (fifth?)?
Thanks for any advice, I hate feeling lost in a matchup :S
Any kind of ground agression vs toss relies on toss making a mistake in defense (bad wall or ffs), thats why I dont like it at all. If you really want to be agressive then muta is an option but agree that if scouted and toss is good at multitasking he will be able to hold it without big loses. This leaves you with option 4) whih is infestor spine turtle and thats what almost every good zergs plays atm. I dont understand why you are not able to defend 4 bases. As soon as you see toss taking his third you should secure your 4th. There is no way of him being aggresive at that time so you can safely saturate your 4 bases and tech hard. The only problem you might face is holding a toss all in from 3 base that hits before you get your broodlords most of the time. It is essential to scout toss composition before he moves out (use either some lings or overseer for that). Against a non colossus push you need as many infestors as possible and no resoures wasted in corruptors that will be useless (obviously if its ht/archon push then rest of the supply should be mostly roaches) if its immo/sentry then lings>roaches). Versus a colossus timing I would not morph broods unless you are sure you can have them before he comes to you, after sniping colossus with corruptors you should easily hold the push and morph the broods after. After you defend his 3 base timing you've basically won the game, just max on bl/infestor/rest and kill him. If toss decides to play hard macro mode without any pushes then just max on the best possible composition you can get, make spines everywhere before leaving as wp drops can be insanely annying, neutral parasite his mothership and you should win easy :D.
Thanks for the reply!
I don't know, I watched Hyun vs Parting and basically every game he maxes on roach/ling/infestor, getting hive after 8 infestors. This is what I do. The difference is that he actually never attacked, he just threatened counters/runbys to buy time for broodlords (which didn't work on Ohana).
What do you think about getting drops? It's a 300/300 investment...but he can't move out, and it's straight minerals after that 300/300. Seems like a good way to be aggressive.
I guess I'll try infestor/spine turtle more. What I meant by losing my fourth was I'll secure it, drone hard, spine/infestor up while teching, but I can't afford to spine up everywhere. For example, Ohana. It takes about 15 spines to secure my first 3 bases, and I have a great concave. Unfortunately, the fourth is in the middle of fucking nowhere. Do I need an additional 10 spines JUST at my fourth? Seems like it's not worth it. I generally skip them and lose my fourth to his colossus timing.
Thanks for the other advice, seems relevant and useful I'll try to remember.
I've also watched last game of Hyun vs Parting and the build he used there is great, would suggest you to take a closer look at it and copying it as good as you can. I am not sure about drops, everytime I get it I tend to commit too much to it and either und up winning right away or losing badly (much more often :D) + for some reason pro players are not using it and they should always know better. I think you are overbuilding spines, just make like 4 on crucial locations (that would be 4th base on ohana and somewhere between third and natural) around 13 min. You really should not die to a colossus timing if you got corruptors and engage in a decent position (look hyuns game again). Immortal/archon/chargelot seems a bit scary for me atm but I guess as someone said with fungaling zealots it should be possible to beat it as well.
nueral parasite would work great because he has no splash to stop it. If not that then mass infested terrans behind some roaches should own it. i feel like its either a macro problem or an engagment problem on your part.
edit: to clarify i mean he has no range to stop the nuerals because he wont have collosi. also you should nueral the immortals > archons. But i think mass infested terrans with a few fungals is all you need.
On November 14 2012 09:08 Turbogangsta wrote:
you can also fungle the zealots and engage from range with roaches and leave your lings out of the fight or swoop in behind. Your comp should always win with a proper engagement. the engagement is on your terms since you have the infestors (which can fungle and spawn units where ever they want). try out a unit tester and A moving the protoss army towards yours and then you try your best to engage it properly.
First off, let me agree that his problem sounds like a macro issue or just bad engagements.
That being said, have you tried these infestor options you mention? I read your posts hours ago and they've been bothering me ever since, they just don't seem like tested solutions. In my experience, every time you try to fungal zealots, you miss a few and they charge your infestors. If you have enough roach ling up front to buffer your infestors, those get drawn into either the zealots (lings die quickly) or in range of the immortal archon core (everything dies quickly), because they will try to cover the fungaled units by advancing (or they are a-moving). I fear that you won't even get one full roach volley off before starting to get pressured by the rest of the army. The fungaled guys will charge right back in (auto- and instant cast makes sure of it), and you're back to square one, having barely scratched the shields of only part of the meatshield of the army.
NP is perhaps even worse. Immortals have enough range to easily target down NP'ing infestors--immortals are range 6 and NP is range 7, that's not much breathing room. If you have enough stuff to plug the gap, or he's badly positioned, it works a little bit, but the swarm of chargelots at the front is liable to break through at any time. Archons might work better, have them go to work on the zealots before immortals get in range... but they get in range faster than you'd like, I assure you.
I agree that you need the lings to flank. Immortals with lings around them are frightened little princesses in need of rescue. No matter what the verdict on the infestor usage, you will always want a small force of lings to flank, even just to absorb a few shots and force a few chargelots to go the wrong way before dying.
I think the key in infestor usage is going to be ITs, no matter what else you do. Fungal takes ages to kill anything, and you need stuff to die fast, before the sheer dps of the deathball (archons AND immortals, scary dps) melts all your stuff. As is, it's often a gamble whether or not you have enough army to last until your ITs pop.
Maybe I misinterpreted what you were saying, but basically I don't think NP works consistently, and fungal+kite never works, at least not in a full army vs army fight.
My opinion is toss out one blanket of fungals, then IT spam to surround. Clumping ITs against archons is ill-advised (i.e. don't do it), and leave the rest of your army room to move in. Box groups of roaches to focus down archons. Box and move groups of roaches to redirect immortal fire to lings when possible.
On November 12 2012 13:49 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, I'm so lost in ZvP. It seems like all the midgame options suck dick if your opponent scouts properly, and plays a safe macro game with simcity. I'll go through the options and the problems I have:
1) Roach/ling max: It's not 2011; this is super all-in, and won't work unless my opponent sucks (and at mid-high masters they don't). Obviously not a viable option.
2) Mutas: It's okay, but if scouted IMO it's not worth it. A few cannons around their base, fast blink, and then they hit a storm timing before your broodlords are out and you lose. I've had decent success with muta/ling/bane all ins (off 5 bases, but I call it "all in" because there's no transition) where I either kill him or I remax and either kill him or lose. I've never had success with only making ~12 mutas and then transitioning, they don't do enough damage and then die too quickly. Am I missing something here about how to execute this effectively?
3) Infestor/roach/ling aggression: I've actually lost every game I do this, except when Protoss is stupid and either skips simcity or pushes out before 14:00. Not sure what to say about this...I drone up really quick, get infestors quick, and attack when I near max with roach/ling/infestor. Here's a standard game: http://drop.sc/274607 it's against HwangSin so I didn't stand a chance, but this is what most games look like anyway (except the 12:00 mothership). What am I missing here? It's obviously an effective style, but I'm clearly not doing it right.
4) Infestor/spine turtle: I can never defend 4 bases with spines, only 3 (at least not without having huge holes). I'm kind of lost on how to play this style, it seems pretty lame. 3 base infestor/blord can't afford 3/3 or double spire, so I would die to a followup stalker/colo/archon push...I don't have a replay of this, sorry, but I can explain what usually happens. I go up to 80 drones, get 6 infestors, and have broodlords ready at 14:00. His push hits as broodlords morph, the spine/infestor keeps me alive. Then, I push his army back, but he has me contained on 3 bases (he's on 3 himself, and he can expand). When I move out to take a fourth, he blinks under me and has 1000 archons and colossi so the broodlords and lings do no damage, and fungal doesn't kill stalkers quickly enough. If I try to prevent a blink, the colossi eat my infestors, and it's just not a good time. Do I have to spine push to take my fourth? Do I need to set up a big runby to delay him more, so my broodlords are up in time to defend my fourth (fifth?)?
Thanks for any advice, I hate feeling lost in a matchup :S
Any kind of ground agression vs toss relies on toss making a mistake in defense (bad wall or ffs), thats why I dont like it at all. If you really want to be agressive then muta is an option but agree that if scouted and toss is good at multitasking he will be able to hold it without big loses. This leaves you with option 4) whih is infestor spine turtle and thats what almost every good zergs plays atm. I dont understand why you are not able to defend 4 bases. As soon as you see toss taking his third you should secure your 4th. There is no way of him being aggresive at that time so you can safely saturate your 4 bases and tech hard. The only problem you might face is holding a toss all in from 3 base that hits before you get your broodlords most of the time. It is essential to scout toss composition before he moves out (use either some lings or overseer for that). Against a non colossus push you need as many infestors as possible and no resoures wasted in corruptors that will be useless (obviously if its ht/archon push then rest of the supply should be mostly roaches) if its immo/sentry then lings>roaches). Versus a colossus timing I would not morph broods unless you are sure you can have them before he comes to you, after sniping colossus with corruptors you should easily hold the push and morph the broods after. After you defend his 3 base timing you've basically won the game, just max on bl/infestor/rest and kill him. If toss decides to play hard macro mode without any pushes then just max on the best possible composition you can get, make spines everywhere before leaving as wp drops can be insanely annying, neutral parasite his mothership and you should win easy :D.
Thanks for the reply!
I don't know, I watched Hyun vs Parting and basically every game he maxes on roach/ling/infestor, getting hive after 8 infestors. This is what I do. The difference is that he actually never attacked, he just threatened counters/runbys to buy time for broodlords (which didn't work on Ohana).
What do you think about getting drops? It's a 300/300 investment...but he can't move out, and it's straight minerals after that 300/300. Seems like a good way to be aggressive.
I guess I'll try infestor/spine turtle more. What I meant by losing my fourth was I'll secure it, drone hard, spine/infestor up while teching, but I can't afford to spine up everywhere. For example, Ohana. It takes about 15 spines to secure my first 3 bases, and I have a great concave. Unfortunately, the fourth is in the middle of fucking nowhere. Do I need an additional 10 spines JUST at my fourth? Seems like it's not worth it. I generally skip them and lose my fourth to his colossus timing.
Thanks for the other advice, seems relevant and useful I'll try to remember.
Can I just say that it's odd you're here for ZvP advice? Ok hold on, I'll be useful...
Hyun plays a less boring version of the "get to lategame" style, he actually tends to have a serious standing army. I think the key, though, is how active and aware he is with it. He challenges the third, threatens runbys, and picks off pylons, all of which gives him at the very least more infestor energy for the fight, or enough time to get to broods (even Ohana is a good example of this, it's just that his engagement was due to (my opinion here) not realizing how many FFs were available, as well as his infestors being mostly useless. Still, he holds out quite awhile by just darting around, it's pretty crazy to see how a weak roach force just tugs the stalker ball around for awhile. Hell, hyun gets out broods (useless as the few of them are at that point) because he delays so long. Plus, it's fun to aggressively push the third after he's 2/3 of the way across the map. He can sack the third and attack into you, at which point you split your army into three and kill each of his bases (get in before he can warp sentries at home, if at all possible). Or he can come home, at which point you leave a few roaches in the mineral line, while the rest of your stuff runs around again and hides among your spines. The freed supply goes into more infestors.
I think the three base pre-hive timing is killer against most zergs, but hyun manages to wreak havoc with the actual execution, and that might help solve the issue that you're having. Don't let him waltz up to your spines at his preferred time, on his initiative. Go around, threaten to go around, snipe a pylon, etc.
So easy for toss to take a third - so easy for them to attack into your 4th (because of the awkward choke - and the difficulty in covering your entrances with spines, and getting infestors into position.)
Seems like they just take a 3rd easily - hit a 3 base timing that's hard to defend and I die - every time.
On November 14 2012 18:15 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVP Ohana - how in the hell?
So easy for toss to take a third - so easy for them to attack into your 4th (because of the awkward choke - and the difficulty in covering your entrances with spines, and getting infestors into position.)
Seems like they just take a 3rd easily - hit a 3 base timing that's hard to defend and I die - every time.
It also is easy for you to spine up the access to your third and natural. If he pushes into your fourth just take the base on the opposite side and counter into his third.
On November 14 2012 18:15 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVP Ohana - how in the hell?
So easy for toss to take a third - so easy for them to attack into your 4th (because of the awkward choke - and the difficulty in covering your entrances with spines, and getting infestors into position.)
Seems like they just take a 3rd easily - hit a 3 base timing that's hard to defend and I die - every time.
It also is easy for you to spine up the access to your third and natural. If he pushes into your fourth just take the base on the opposite side and counter into his third.
I actually really like the TLO Style Day[9] covered in his daily not that long ago. It's similar to the opening to Stephanos fast max (I'm talking about taking 3 bases ASAP and droning like a motherfucker), except you get one gas at 5 min, go for long speed, and as things work out, you FLOOD upgraded lings somewhere around 7:45-8 mins. This easily denies any attempt of a third base (adjustments needed if he tries to take a super early 3rd like a greedy bitch), and if you're upgrades are flowing quick enough, with some queen support you can hold the popular immortal sentry all in.
On November 14 2012 18:15 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVP Ohana - how in the hell?
So easy for toss to take a third - so easy for them to attack into your 4th (because of the awkward choke - and the difficulty in covering your entrances with spines, and getting infestors into position.)
Seems like they just take a 3rd easily - hit a 3 base timing that's hard to defend and I die - every time.
It also is easy for you to spine up the access to your third and natural. If he pushes into your fourth just take the base on the opposite side and counter into his third.
I actually really like the TLO Style Day[9] covered in his daily not that long ago. It's similar to the opening to Stephanos fast max (I'm talking about taking 3 bases ASAP and droning like a motherfucker), except you get one gas at 5 min, go for long speed, and as things work out, you FLOOD upgraded lings somewhere around 7:45-8 mins. This easily denies any attempt of a third base (adjustments needed if he tries to take a super early 3rd like a greedy bitch), and if you're upgrades are flowing quick enough, with some queen support you can hold the popular immortal sentry all in.
Could you link this game/vid? I cant seem to find it
On November 12 2012 13:49 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, I'm so lost in ZvP. It seems like all the midgame options suck dick if your opponent scouts properly, and plays a safe macro game with simcity. I'll go through the options and the problems I have:
1) Roach/ling max: It's not 2011; this is super all-in, and won't work unless my opponent sucks (and at mid-high masters they don't). Obviously not a viable option.
2) Mutas: It's okay, but if scouted IMO it's not worth it. A few cannons around their base, fast blink, and then they hit a storm timing before your broodlords are out and you lose. I've had decent success with muta/ling/bane all ins (off 5 bases, but I call it "all in" because there's no transition) where I either kill him or I remax and either kill him or lose. I've never had success with only making ~12 mutas and then transitioning, they don't do enough damage and then die too quickly. Am I missing something here about how to execute this effectively?
3) Infestor/roach/ling aggression: I've actually lost every game I do this, except when Protoss is stupid and either skips simcity or pushes out before 14:00. Not sure what to say about this...I drone up really quick, get infestors quick, and attack when I near max with roach/ling/infestor. Here's a standard game: http://drop.sc/274607 it's against HwangSin so I didn't stand a chance, but this is what most games look like anyway (except the 12:00 mothership). What am I missing here? It's obviously an effective style, but I'm clearly not doing it right.
4) Infestor/spine turtle: I can never defend 4 bases with spines, only 3 (at least not without having huge holes). I'm kind of lost on how to play this style, it seems pretty lame. 3 base infestor/blord can't afford 3/3 or double spire, so I would die to a followup stalker/colo/archon push...I don't have a replay of this, sorry, but I can explain what usually happens. I go up to 80 drones, get 6 infestors, and have broodlords ready at 14:00. His push hits as broodlords morph, the spine/infestor keeps me alive. Then, I push his army back, but he has me contained on 3 bases (he's on 3 himself, and he can expand). When I move out to take a fourth, he blinks under me and has 1000 archons and colossi so the broodlords and lings do no damage, and fungal doesn't kill stalkers quickly enough. If I try to prevent a blink, the colossi eat my infestors, and it's just not a good time. Do I have to spine push to take my fourth? Do I need to set up a big runby to delay him more, so my broodlords are up in time to defend my fourth (fifth?)?
Thanks for any advice, I hate feeling lost in a matchup :S
Any kind of ground agression vs toss relies on toss making a mistake in defense (bad wall or ffs), thats why I dont like it at all. If you really want to be agressive then muta is an option but agree that if scouted and toss is good at multitasking he will be able to hold it without big loses. This leaves you with option 4) whih is infestor spine turtle and thats what almost every good zergs plays atm. I dont understand why you are not able to defend 4 bases. As soon as you see toss taking his third you should secure your 4th. There is no way of him being aggresive at that time so you can safely saturate your 4 bases and tech hard. The only problem you might face is holding a toss all in from 3 base that hits before you get your broodlords most of the time. It is essential to scout toss composition before he moves out (use either some lings or overseer for that). Against a non colossus push you need as many infestors as possible and no resoures wasted in corruptors that will be useless (obviously if its ht/archon push then rest of the supply should be mostly roaches) if its immo/sentry then lings>roaches). Versus a colossus timing I would not morph broods unless you are sure you can have them before he comes to you, after sniping colossus with corruptors you should easily hold the push and morph the broods after. After you defend his 3 base timing you've basically won the game, just max on bl/infestor/rest and kill him. If toss decides to play hard macro mode without any pushes then just max on the best possible composition you can get, make spines everywhere before leaving as wp drops can be insanely annying, neutral parasite his mothership and you should win easy :D.
Thanks for the reply!
I don't know, I watched Hyun vs Parting and basically every game he maxes on roach/ling/infestor, getting hive after 8 infestors. This is what I do. The difference is that he actually never attacked, he just threatened counters/runbys to buy time for broodlords (which didn't work on Ohana).
What do you think about getting drops? It's a 300/300 investment...but he can't move out, and it's straight minerals after that 300/300. Seems like a good way to be aggressive.
I guess I'll try infestor/spine turtle more. What I meant by losing my fourth was I'll secure it, drone hard, spine/infestor up while teching, but I can't afford to spine up everywhere. For example, Ohana. It takes about 15 spines to secure my first 3 bases, and I have a great concave. Unfortunately, the fourth is in the middle of fucking nowhere. Do I need an additional 10 spines JUST at my fourth? Seems like it's not worth it. I generally skip them and lose my fourth to his colossus timing.
Thanks for the other advice, seems relevant and useful I'll try to remember.
Can I just say that it's odd you're here for ZvP advice? Ok hold on, I'll be useful...
Hyun plays a less boring version of the "get to lategame" style, he actually tends to have a serious standing army. I think the key, though, is how active and aware he is with it. He challenges the third, threatens runbys, and picks off pylons, all of which gives him at the very least more infestor energy for the fight, or enough time to get to broods (even Ohana is a good example of this, it's just that his engagement was due to (my opinion here) not realizing how many FFs were available, as well as his infestors being mostly useless. Still, he holds out quite awhile by just darting around, it's pretty crazy to see how a weak roach force just tugs the stalker ball around for awhile. Hell, hyun gets out broods (useless as the few of them are at that point) because he delays so long. Plus, it's fun to aggressively push the third after he's 2/3 of the way across the map. He can sack the third and attack into you, at which point you split your army into three and kill each of his bases (get in before he can warp sentries at home, if at all possible). Or he can come home, at which point you leave a few roaches in the mineral line, while the rest of your stuff runs around again and hides among your spines. The freed supply goes into more infestors.
I think the three base pre-hive timing is killer against most zergs, but hyun manages to wreak havoc with the actual execution, and that might help solve the issue that you're having. Don't let him waltz up to your spines at his preferred time, on his initiative. Go around, threaten to go around, snipe a pylon, etc.
p.s. might be useful to toss us a replay.
Haha, it's actually my worst matchup, or at least the one I lose to because of strategic errors. I actually think if someone compiled my help asking it's probably mostly ZvP, so maybe you're being sarcastic and I'm silly?
Interesting; he never actually engages, he just threatens to. I like the map control he gets with it, kind of wonder how he deals with drops though (split a few roaches off I guess?) I'll definitely try this more. Usually in my games I attack, don't get a good engagement, and after an attack or two his army snowballs and I die. Damn forcefields preventing me from killing him I guess I don't need as many spines with the style, but 5-7 at probable fight locations seems like a terrific idea. I guess this is what I've been missing with the style
Hmm, I guess you could say he's Hyunstoppable? (lame, I know). Thanks for the tips I'll post again if I'm having trouble with the build.
Actually 2 quick questions about my games vs Hwangsin:
1) What do you do against a 7gate sentry/stalker all in? It looks like sentry/immortal, but moves out at 8:00 with 10 sentries, hitting at 9:00 with 7 sentries and 14 stalkers (cant deny proxy pylons consistently). I guess I have to defend it like a regular 7gate that hits slightly later? aka cut drones at 55, mass roach/ling or something. But he has >20 forcefields, so I don't see that working against a GM.
2) In the game in the nested quotes (top quote), I attack into his third...to be greeted by a mothership. What should my reaction be? He's going to hit a 3 base mothership/colossus/archon/stalker timing, which seems pretty unstoppable. At the very least the mothership absorbs a ton of corruptor fire, but vortex is super good too vs corruptors. I understand that game was decided by macro and bad engagements, but just in general (I'm sure I'll face this play again sometime).
On November 14 2012 18:15 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVP Ohana - how in the hell?
So easy for toss to take a third - so easy for them to attack into your 4th (because of the awkward choke - and the difficulty in covering your entrances with spines, and getting infestors into position.)
Seems like they just take a 3rd easily - hit a 3 base timing that's hard to defend and I die - every time.
It also is easy for you to spine up the access to your third and natural. If he pushes into your fourth just take the base on the opposite side and counter into his third.
I actually really like the TLO Style Day[9] covered in his daily not that long ago. It's similar to the opening to Stephanos fast max (I'm talking about taking 3 bases ASAP and droning like a motherfucker), except you get one gas at 5 min, go for long speed, and as things work out, you FLOOD upgraded lings somewhere around 7:45-8 mins. This easily denies any attempt of a third base (adjustments needed if he tries to take a super early 3rd like a greedy bitch), and if you're upgrades are flowing quick enough, with some queen support you can hold the popular immortal sentry all in.
Could you link this game/vid? I cant seem to find it
Borderline-troll-post-admittedly, this video is 1 year old, nearly much more . Provided by the beloved community member Destiny, of a short coaching session on ZvT against two barracks play by a much ..."higher skilled" opponent. As a player whose own mechanics get the best of me, quite often; I'd like to offer this much to the up and coming amongst us.
(if you haven't laughed by 0:45, my point is probably lost on you best wishes gl hf; everything after 4:00 should bring joy to your life.)
As mentioned, a ZvT MU coached by Destiny--but the good part of it is, it is with a student named "Jimmy." To many of you I'm sure no further explanation is required though, for those whom it is I'll only say that Jimmy, is a younger fellow. He's probably a sub-gold league player matching a "2800" Masters league Terran, whilst being coached by Mr. Steve. The first few minutes are relatively mute until the bunkers go down, then all hell breaks loose in a tear-jerking victory. The likes of those above Jimmy would probably just nod and tell him to say, "Thank you, Steven." This is certainly a good game; and a good reminder to well, sometimes--there is just no reason, to obey conventional reason.
On November 12 2012 13:49 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, I'm so lost in ZvP. It seems like all the midgame options suck dick if your opponent scouts properly, and plays a safe macro game with simcity. I'll go through the options and the problems I have:
1) Roach/ling max: It's not 2011; this is super all-in, and won't work unless my opponent sucks (and at mid-high masters they don't). Obviously not a viable option.
2) Mutas: It's okay, but if scouted IMO it's not worth it. A few cannons around their base, fast blink, and then they hit a storm timing before your broodlords are out and you lose. I've had decent success with muta/ling/bane all ins (off 5 bases, but I call it "all in" because there's no transition) where I either kill him or I remax and either kill him or lose. I've never had success with only making ~12 mutas and then transitioning, they don't do enough damage and then die too quickly. Am I missing something here about how to execute this effectively?
3) Infestor/roach/ling aggression: I've actually lost every game I do this, except when Protoss is stupid and either skips simcity or pushes out before 14:00. Not sure what to say about this...I drone up really quick, get infestors quick, and attack when I near max with roach/ling/infestor. Here's a standard game: http://drop.sc/274607 it's against HwangSin so I didn't stand a chance, but this is what most games look like anyway (except the 12:00 mothership). What am I missing here? It's obviously an effective style, but I'm clearly not doing it right.
4) Infestor/spine turtle: I can never defend 4 bases with spines, only 3 (at least not without having huge holes). I'm kind of lost on how to play this style, it seems pretty lame. 3 base infestor/blord can't afford 3/3 or double spire, so I would die to a followup stalker/colo/archon push...I don't have a replay of this, sorry, but I can explain what usually happens. I go up to 80 drones, get 6 infestors, and have broodlords ready at 14:00. His push hits as broodlords morph, the spine/infestor keeps me alive. Then, I push his army back, but he has me contained on 3 bases (he's on 3 himself, and he can expand). When I move out to take a fourth, he blinks under me and has 1000 archons and colossi so the broodlords and lings do no damage, and fungal doesn't kill stalkers quickly enough. If I try to prevent a blink, the colossi eat my infestors, and it's just not a good time. Do I have to spine push to take my fourth? Do I need to set up a big runby to delay him more, so my broodlords are up in time to defend my fourth (fifth?)?
Thanks for any advice, I hate feeling lost in a matchup :S
Any kind of ground agression vs toss relies on toss making a mistake in defense (bad wall or ffs), thats why I dont like it at all. If you really want to be agressive then muta is an option but agree that if scouted and toss is good at multitasking he will be able to hold it without big loses. This leaves you with option 4) whih is infestor spine turtle and thats what almost every good zergs plays atm. I dont understand why you are not able to defend 4 bases. As soon as you see toss taking his third you should secure your 4th. There is no way of him being aggresive at that time so you can safely saturate your 4 bases and tech hard. The only problem you might face is holding a toss all in from 3 base that hits before you get your broodlords most of the time. It is essential to scout toss composition before he moves out (use either some lings or overseer for that). Against a non colossus push you need as many infestors as possible and no resoures wasted in corruptors that will be useless (obviously if its ht/archon push then rest of the supply should be mostly roaches) if its immo/sentry then lings>roaches). Versus a colossus timing I would not morph broods unless you are sure you can have them before he comes to you, after sniping colossus with corruptors you should easily hold the push and morph the broods after. After you defend his 3 base timing you've basically won the game, just max on bl/infestor/rest and kill him. If toss decides to play hard macro mode without any pushes then just max on the best possible composition you can get, make spines everywhere before leaving as wp drops can be insanely annying, neutral parasite his mothership and you should win easy :D.
Thanks for the reply!
I don't know, I watched Hyun vs Parting and basically every game he maxes on roach/ling/infestor, getting hive after 8 infestors. This is what I do. The difference is that he actually never attacked, he just threatened counters/runbys to buy time for broodlords (which didn't work on Ohana).
What do you think about getting drops? It's a 300/300 investment...but he can't move out, and it's straight minerals after that 300/300. Seems like a good way to be aggressive.
I guess I'll try infestor/spine turtle more. What I meant by losing my fourth was I'll secure it, drone hard, spine/infestor up while teching, but I can't afford to spine up everywhere. For example, Ohana. It takes about 15 spines to secure my first 3 bases, and I have a great concave. Unfortunately, the fourth is in the middle of fucking nowhere. Do I need an additional 10 spines JUST at my fourth? Seems like it's not worth it. I generally skip them and lose my fourth to his colossus timing.
Thanks for the other advice, seems relevant and useful I'll try to remember.
Can I just say that it's odd you're here for ZvP advice? Ok hold on, I'll be useful...
Hyun plays a less boring version of the "get to lategame" style, he actually tends to have a serious standing army. I think the key, though, is how active and aware he is with it. He challenges the third, threatens runbys, and picks off pylons, all of which gives him at the very least more infestor energy for the fight, or enough time to get to broods (even Ohana is a good example of this, it's just that his engagement was due to (my opinion here) not realizing how many FFs were available, as well as his infestors being mostly useless. Still, he holds out quite awhile by just darting around, it's pretty crazy to see how a weak roach force just tugs the stalker ball around for awhile. Hell, hyun gets out broods (useless as the few of them are at that point) because he delays so long. Plus, it's fun to aggressively push the third after he's 2/3 of the way across the map. He can sack the third and attack into you, at which point you split your army into three and kill each of his bases (get in before he can warp sentries at home, if at all possible). Or he can come home, at which point you leave a few roaches in the mineral line, while the rest of your stuff runs around again and hides among your spines. The freed supply goes into more infestors.
I think the three base pre-hive timing is killer against most zergs, but hyun manages to wreak havoc with the actual execution, and that might help solve the issue that you're having. Don't let him waltz up to your spines at his preferred time, on his initiative. Go around, threaten to go around, snipe a pylon, etc.
p.s. might be useful to toss us a replay.
Haha, it's actually my worst matchup, or at least the one I lose to because of strategic errors. I actually think if someone compiled my help asking it's probably mostly ZvP, so maybe you're being sarcastic and I'm silly?
Interesting; he never actually engages, he just threatens to. I like the map control he gets with it, kind of wonder how he deals with drops though (split a few roaches off I guess?) I'll definitely try this more. Usually in my games I attack, don't get a good engagement, and after an attack or two his army snowballs and I die. Damn forcefields preventing me from killing him I guess I don't need as many spines with the style, but 5-7 at probable fight locations seems like a terrific idea. I guess this is what I've been missing with the style
Hmm, I guess you could say he's Hyunstoppable? (lame, I know). Thanks for the tips I'll post again if I'm having trouble with the build.
Actually 2 quick questions about my games vs Hwangsin:
1) What do you do against a 7gate sentry/stalker all in? It looks like sentry/immortal, but moves out at 8:00 with 10 sentries, hitting at 9:00 with 7 sentries and 14 stalkers (cant deny proxy pylons consistently). I guess I have to defend it like a regular 7gate that hits slightly later? aka cut drones at 55, mass roach/ling or something. But he has >20 forcefields, so I don't see that working against a GM.
2) In the game in the nested quotes (top quote), I attack into his third...to be greeted by a mothership. What should my reaction be? He's going to hit a 3 base mothership/colossus/archon/stalker timing, which seems pretty unstoppable. At the very least the mothership absorbs a ton of corruptor fire, but vortex is super good too vs corruptors. I understand that game was decided by macro and bad engagements, but just in general (I'm sure I'll face this play again sometime).
Thanks!
Vs 7gate sentry stalker, I've beaten it with lings and some spines at the third+natural. It looks like sentry immortal but the feel is different, there's "hold and build up a core of sentries+immortals" and more "push out and warp big". It sounds stupid, but the posturing is more aggressive. Basically, the way I seem to win against 7gate is to inject extra-promptly, pump lings, and put up 4-5 spines at third and natural (I'm visualizing Cloud right now). Force what FFs you can as you go across the map. When he gets to you, the key is dancing with his stalkers, because while they can take down the spines, they can't handle spine+lings. But if they get into spine range and FF to keep out lings, they can't focus down spines because the FFs block his ability to focus down individual spines, or chase down uprooted ones. Cut your gas income and as he keeps adding stalkers, add spines with those 4-6 ex-gas drones, while pumping lings the whole time. He MUST take down a base with 7gate, so you never really need to move out, just keep adding lings and spines. Maybe rally a half dozen lings to his base once you feel stable, to keep him honest (no full wall = he must warp at home because you get into his main, which means he's down perhaps one full round of units and your nonstop ling production gives you a chance to smash his army when your next round of units pops). I don't know if this is an accepted and proper way of handling it, but the last memory I have of 7gate is me having a lot of lings and just holding on until I managed to overwhelm him.
However, the classic, super suave, drinking whiskey and spitting tobacco-type of old school way handle 7gate is to get burrowed roaches. Burrow move not needed, just burrowing between shots will be enough healing to win most fights. Make sure you have exactly 3 gases, and just build roaches nonstop. They don't have time or resources to get a robo and an observer in response, and you'll be able to stop a 7gate with robo dead in its tracks without burrow, it just won't have enough units to be truly scary. The reason why you don't see this stuff anymore, though, is robo-first builds are the norm, and 7gate relatively rare. But if you absolutely don't see a robo at all (you seem to double OV scout, good stuff there), and you suspect 7gate, it's still solid. FYI, hallucinations are often a sign of late robo macro play, which is to say they won't 7gate.
RE: the replay vs hwangsin, his build is funny because he goes for two tech paths really fast (MS, then immortal, then colo). First, if you had added detection the moment you saw the mothership, you might've broken the third. As is, when he cloaked everything and you couldn't hit stuff, you should've just ran some lings past his sentries to force FF, while everything else backed off. That's proper retreat tactics vs P, imo.
You make one of two correct calls afterward, by droning up hard (other would be to go big army with detection and try to break the third). He's super light on upgrades though, because he went double-tech. I want to suggest making sure you don't leave upgrades out, it might not be a huge issue (and it isn't here), but certainly it is something you want for a strong mid- or lategame.
The big problem was the engaging at the ramp, trying to get nice fungals. With both colo and immortals out, plus him being more than willing to burn FF to save sentries, it's not a great choice. Odds are that he will attack, not take the fourth, and even if he is obviously trying for it, there's no need to deny it with your army, use a burrowed ling+creep.
He had no archons, btw, and you could see that. So when he vortexes you, just run everything in. Ground units get spread out enough that colo can't swipe everything apart like archons rip up BLs, so just run in and macro while you wait. Otherwise, you risk getting 1/3 of your army camped and killed for free, or you fight his full army with only your remaining 2/3. Which could become 1/3 with his second vortex (early MS very weird). You can also use the vortex to screen your remaining army, keep it between you and him, and dart in when it ends. You lose the fight but save a bunch of infestors, it's bad but you're not dead yet. You do take your sweet time rebuilding units, though, and you're short on larvae. I didn't check whether that was due to poor injects during this extended battle, or missing a macro hatch, but you might want to be more strict about adding an extra macro hatch when you're maxing out. I do it when I add spines at 190+ supply.
I feel like you botched the ling remax, you're too light on units, and you let the FFs keep you away from too many of the stalkers. You still had a chance, it looked pretty good when the engagement started, but by the end you had lost too much. That last colo was a giant pain, too.
Anyway, you had a serious chance--note that he had ZERO archons at all, he was counting on vortex to allow easy blink plays--but you were pretty bullheaded about engagements, and small engagement losses compounded by short push distance did you in. Make sure you use corruption, that might've gotten you the extra colossus kill, which would've meant he'd be on just stalker immortal (and a few sentries) against your 50 ling remax.
Possibly fast MS can be killed by just endless roach/ling (with a few infestors as gas piles up). You can see the fear of roaches in the style, he gets lots of sentries first, then double robo for immortals, with I think only one obs and only +1 attack (critical, need it for zealots as anti-ling if you hit him hard before colo). He's spread thin using this strategy and super defensive all the way until he is on three bases and getting colossi.
Gosh I talk a lot. Final note, this fast MS style is good for Ohana because it's hard to break a three-base opponent, so it's possibly a Ohana-specific style made to fend off three-base fast BL play with more finesse than the colo timing that gets used on most maps.
I have a simple question about mechanics. Say you want to build 5 spine crawlers at a new expo, what's the best method for this?
If I do B+C+SHIFT+Left click 5 times, the drones will finish current order, which is silly. Example: if they are moving to the minerals, they will go there and grab the minerals before they mutate into spines, wasting a lot of time and a few minerals in the process.
So I usually do: B+C+Left click , repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat but I imagine there must be a better way.
On November 15 2012 18:31 Azoryen wrote: I have a simple question about mechanics. Say you want to build 5 spine crawlers at a new expo, what's the best method for this?
If I do B+C+SHIFT+Left click 5 times, the drones will finish current order, which is silly. Example: if they are moving to the minerals, they will go there and grab the minerals before they mutate into spines, wasting a lot of time and a few minerals in the process.
So I usually do: B+C+Left click , repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat but I imagine there must be a better way.
If I want to make 5 I will box 5 drones hit S then do, 'B+C+SHIFT+Left click 5 times'. If I want to make an unspecified amount I will just box and B+C+SHIFT+Left click until I am satisfied. If you hit s before hand they will go asap or move them to where you want them to go.
On November 15 2012 18:31 Azoryen wrote: I have a simple question about mechanics. Say you want to build 5 spine crawlers at a new expo, what's the best method for this?
If I do B+C+SHIFT+Left click 5 times, the drones will finish current order, which is silly. Example: if they are moving to the minerals, they will go there and grab the minerals before they mutate into spines, wasting a lot of time and a few minerals in the process.
So I usually do: B+C+Left click , repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat but I imagine there must be a better way.
You can always right click where you want them to go, and then do the shift building.
On November 15 2012 18:31 Azoryen wrote: I have a simple question about mechanics. Say you want to build 5 spine crawlers at a new expo, what's the best method for this?
If I do B+C+SHIFT+Left click 5 times, the drones will finish current order, which is silly. Example: if they are moving to the minerals, they will go there and grab the minerals before they mutate into spines, wasting a lot of time and a few minerals in the process.
So I usually do: B+C+Left click , repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat but I imagine there must be a better way.
If I want to make 5 I will box 5 drones hit S then do, 'B+C+SHIFT+Left click 5 times'. If I want to make an unspecified amount I will just box and B+C+SHIFT+Left click until I am satisfied. If you hit s before hand they will go asap or move them to where you want them to go.
On November 15 2012 18:31 Azoryen wrote: I have a simple question about mechanics. Say you want to build 5 spine crawlers at a new expo, what's the best method for this?
If I do B+C+SHIFT+Left click 5 times, the drones will finish current order, which is silly. Example: if they are moving to the minerals, they will go there and grab the minerals before they mutate into spines, wasting a lot of time and a few minerals in the process.
So I usually do: B+C+Left click , repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat but I imagine there must be a better way.
You can always right click where you want them to go, and then do the shift building.
Long time protoss here, looking to start offracing more as Z. I know this has been asked numerous times before, but could somebody introduce me a basic opener/build for each matchup, that could be used as an all-around starter? This would be greatly appreciated. Tried looking from liquidpedia aswell, but im not sure if that info is up to date.
On November 08 2012 07:42 Striker.superfreunde wrote: Hi again. What's a good way to crush a planetary cost effective until late midgame? Thank you!
if you can manage to get a surround with you lings with infestor support to fungal the repairing scvs you can kill a PF rather cost efficiently. But in the Mid game it is better to just aviod the PF and expand yourself and turtle until to you get BL/infestor.
Thank you! I saw it in a game a few days ago. Now it works fine!
I have a question, too.
What should trigger my hive timings? If the third is saturated? If i hit certain supply numbers? Or should trigger the unit composition of the opponent my timings? If so, it would be kind to here some protoss examples. I don't want to act to the ingame clock at all.
On November 15 2012 22:06 sk1nex wrote: Hi everyone!
Long time protoss here, looking to start offracing more as Z. I know this has been asked numerous times before, but could somebody introduce me a basic opener/build for each matchup, that could be used as an all-around starter? This would be greatly appreciated. Tried looking from liquidpedia aswell, but im not sure if that info is up to date.
Thanks in advance :-)
ZvT : 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas if you want fast speedlings for mapcontrol. You can also take double gas later, but i dunno that openener. Also remember making atleast another pair of queens early on to creep spread.
ZvP : 14 pool, expand twice around 21-22 supply or so if they FFE.
ZvZ : Same as vT, although 15/15/15 works too. If you go hatch first, rally your 10th drone to their base, and you will be able to scout their pool JUST in time IF they're cheesing BEFORE you put down your hatch (save minerals). You can also block their hatch first with that drone. Make baneling nest and spine crawler around 5:15ish to prevent dying from speedling allins.
Thats just general openers, if you want my full game strats, probably better you add me on SC2. apex.730 EU
EPT
I guess I don't need as many spines with the style, but 5-7 at probable fight locations seems like a terrific idea. I guess this is what I've been missing with the style 
. Provided by the beloved community member Destiny, of a short coaching session on ZvT against two barracks play by a much ..."higher skilled" opponent. As a player whose own mechanics get the best of me, quite often; I'd like to offer this much to the up and coming amongst us.
