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On November 18 2012 10:27 obis wrote:
Hey all, I was wondering how you would go about saturating your base's in all match ups, as in, once you get 16 drones on minerals on a base would it be efficient to get your geysers? or would you have to get at least 24 drones on a base as that includes 16 drones for minerals, plus the 2 drones you would have to sacrifice for the geysers and also the 6 drones you would need to saturate them.
Or do you think people just drone up to 16 drones on each mineral field and then once they have all there mineral fields saturated with 16 drones on each they get there gases? or do they get 24 on each base. I am confused as when and what situation to get my gases.
It depends on what you're going to do. Most of the time, you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss.
However, in ZvZ, lets take an example of a build i usually do. Roughly 7 min lair, followup with a spire straight after. Doing that, if i want to make any decent amount of mutas ill have to take ATLEAST one gas, usually two, so i wont be able to fully saturate my naturals mineral line before taking gasses.
So.. yeah.. in cases of early muta, etc, you should just focus on having enough drones in general. Everything else, focus on having enough drones for minerals, then take gasses once you actually need them. Most of the time you can stay alive in all matchups with one gas long enough for you to saturate both bases.
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On November 18 2012 10:27 obis wrote:
Hey all, I was wondering how you would go about saturating your base's in all match ups, as in, once you get 16 drones on minerals on a base would it be efficient to get your geysers? or would you have to get at least 24 drones on a base as that includes 16 drones for minerals, plus the 2 drones you would have to sacrifice for the geysers and also the 6 drones you would need to saturate them.
Or do you think people just drone up to 16 drones on each mineral field and then once they have all there mineral fields saturated with 16 drones on each they get there gases? or do they get 24 on each base. I am confused as when and what situation to get my gases.
Generally the more income the better... that said 24 harvesters spread across 2 bases mining minerals will have a higher income rate then all 24 harvesters mining minerals on one base. This is to do with the retarding of mining speed when going from 2 drones per patch to 3 drones per patch. (4 drones per patch give next to no additional resource collection rate unless long distance mining)
Also generally you want to collect as many resources as possible as fast as possible (with out dieing)
You really only want to get the gas when you need it to survive or if you need it to be the aggressor.
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On November 18 2012 10:30 tehcaekftw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:27 obis wrote:
Hey all, I was wondering how you would go about saturating your base's in all match ups, as in, once you get 16 drones on minerals on a base would it be efficient to get your geysers? or would you have to get at least 24 drones on a base as that includes 16 drones for minerals, plus the 2 drones you would have to sacrifice for the geysers and also the 6 drones you would need to saturate them.
Or do you think people just drone up to 16 drones on each mineral field and then once they have all there mineral fields saturated with 16 drones on each they get there gases? or do they get 24 on each base. I am confused as when and what situation to get my gases. It depends on what you're going to do. Most of the time, you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss. However, in ZvZ, lets take an example of a build i usually do. Roughly 7 min lair, followup with a spire straight after. Doing that, if i want to make any decent amount of mutas ill have to take ATLEAST one gas, usually two, so i wont be able to fully saturate my naturals mineral line before taking gasses. So.. yeah.. in cases of early muta, etc, you should just focus on having enough drones in general. Everything else, focus on having enough drones for minerals, then take gasses once you actually need them. Most of the time you can stay alive in all matchups with one gas long enough for you to saturate both bases.
when you say"you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss." do you mean that i should have 24 drones at each base? because i think that is full saturation as opposed to the 16 because if i had sixteen on each base then i wouldn't have enough drones to just grab the gases and saturate them. i would have to make another 8 drones and rally them to the base. so i think maybe getting 24 drones per base is the right thing to do, however i do see people just sticking with 16, which i don't know what they do when they want to grab there gases, i think they just rally drones to the extractors.
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Hey im a Silver league Zerg and my question is very simple yet its hard to find an answer. =P Can you provide to me some basic build orders for each matchup, usually i rush but im looking to give macro playstyle a try. Either styles are appreciated! ^_^ Thank you! :D
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On November 18 2012 17:18 BigBeezy wrote:
Hey im a Silver league Zerg and my question is very simple yet its hard to find an answer. =P Can you provide to me some basic build orders for each matchup, usually i rush but im looking to give macro playstyle a try. Either styles are appreciated! ^_^ Thank you! :D
Next time you can quote your old post to show us you've been waiting, instead of just copy-pasting.
Search for speedling expand. It's basically 14 gas, 14 pool, 21 hatch. Early ling speed makes you pretty safe against everything early on. See bad stuff, build lots of speedlings. Don't see bad stuff, drone up your natural. Should work in all matchups, especially in silver (probably anything plat or under, for that matter). Read the speedling expand guides for more detail.
If you want to branch out a bit more, go 15p 16h (17g) in ZvP, and 15h 16p (17g) in ZvT; in both cases get ling speed with the first 100 gas. (Stick to speedling expand in ZvZ.) These are less safe, but more standard/macro-oriented. They're well-covered in Belial's ZvP and ZvT guides, I believe, and if not, he covers the standard builds (non-17 gas) and how to defend early aggression with them, so it's worth a look.
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On November 18 2012 11:47 obis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:30 tehcaekftw wrote:On November 18 2012 10:27 obis wrote:
Hey all, I was wondering how you would go about saturating your base's in all match ups, as in, once you get 16 drones on minerals on a base would it be efficient to get your geysers? or would you have to get at least 24 drones on a base as that includes 16 drones for minerals, plus the 2 drones you would have to sacrifice for the geysers and also the 6 drones you would need to saturate them.
Or do you think people just drone up to 16 drones on each mineral field and then once they have all there mineral fields saturated with 16 drones on each they get there gases? or do they get 24 on each base. I am confused as when and what situation to get my gases. It depends on what you're going to do. Most of the time, you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss. However, in ZvZ, lets take an example of a build i usually do. Roughly 7 min lair, followup with a spire straight after. Doing that, if i want to make any decent amount of mutas ill have to take ATLEAST one gas, usually two, so i wont be able to fully saturate my naturals mineral line before taking gasses. So.. yeah.. in cases of early muta, etc, you should just focus on having enough drones in general. Everything else, focus on having enough drones for minerals, then take gasses once you actually need them. Most of the time you can stay alive in all matchups with one gas long enough for you to saturate both bases. when you say"you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss." do you mean that i should have 24 drones at each base? because i think that is full saturation as opposed to the 16 because if i had sixteen on each base then i wouldn't have enough drones to just grab the gases and saturate them. i would have to make another 8 drones and rally them to the base. so i think maybe getting 24 drones per base is the right thing to do, however i do see people just sticking with 16, which i don't know what they do when they want to grab there gases, i think they just rally drones to the extractors.
You should be paying attention to base saturation normally, and evening it out by either transferring drones, or rallying eggs as you add drones. If you're doing that, you can take gases one at each base first, then double up as you get past 2 or 3 gas.
You're aiming for 16+ drones on minerals at all times, but if you go over, so what? You're never really going to go over 24 drones on minerals per base. So just build extractors as you planned out to fit your strategy, send drones to get gas when they finish, and then add or transfer drones to even things out. It isn't a huge deal. The big factor that affects how many drones you have per base is how safe you are to keep droning, not when you take gas--most builds are designed to not take their gases until they reach 16 mineral drones per base (e.g. take gas at 40 supply in ZvT = 32-34 drones mining, 2 queens, a few drones building).
In my opinion, it's not a huge deal and it's not really worth worrying about, there's so much more to be paying attention to around that time.
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Id say go for 16-18 drones per mineral line and take your gases either A. asap (you want more infestors/tech) or B. once you're saturated (you want more ling/roach) or C. you need gas for a specific timing (6:00 zvp, or for ling speed/upgrades).
Just work on balancing your resources, if you take early gases you better have a good gas sink or if not taking gas better have the larva to use your extra minerals. You will bet the hang of it, try to stay between 16-18 drones on minerals tho, better to not overdo it with worthless drones.
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On November 18 2012 08:42 Mavvie wrote:
Ok, noted.
How many lings do you make though? I need to force him to play not too greedy (like taking the nexus off one zealot), so when do I bank larvae? I feel like it's a coinflip; if I make 6-8 lings and he plays defensive then I'm behind, but if I make 2-4 lings and he plays greedy then I'm behind (the faster WG timings are insane). I guess I'll hope he scouts gas and goes core first, then I'll drone up and hope I'm not considerably behind.
How do I know what to look for against gate-nexus-core openers? Like I know to check for +1, chrono on WG, and the natural gas timings against standard FFE, but how is this affected by the gate-nex-core opener? His WG is something like 30 seconds faster, so do I need a 6:00 roach warren if he has no natural gas? Do I need to scout more aggressively to see +1 or something? So lost against these openers lol.
Eh, it's less cut-and-dried timings and more like fluid scouting. Think of it as more ZvT-like, where you have to watch the hellion count and check rax count, look for stim/shields building, etc.
Roach warren is only "required" at certain times vs FFE because +1 wep zealots butcher regular lings, so you need roaches to defend against the +1 4-gate. It's almost optional against 1 gate expo (we're talking 1 gate yes?) because he will not have +1 wep until really late, so late that you'll might feel the need for roaches as offensive units first and just build the RW to prep an attack.
It could just be that you're not used to the constant scouting that you need against 1 gate FE; it has been many seasons of checking FFE timings, after all, and vs FFE you're able to infer a huge amount from a single tell. In contrast, there's a lot of random crap that 1gate FE, or any gate FE, can do, from stalker pressure to a delayed +1 to a 5/6gate (was that what it was? i'm thinking of the ancient 2 base low-econ gateway all-in), so you just have to watch him. He can't hide much of his stuff because he doesn't have a cannon or free wall to defend the front (until later, anyway), most of his units have to sit up front where you can see them, and he's also forced into a bunch of gateway units, so you'll never be as sad about investing into lings as against FE because your lings will be more useful due to speed and not facing +1 wep zealots.
About the ling count, it's been awhile so I don't remember for sure, but I don't think I pooled larvae. The thing is, though, if you're active with speedlings, there's just so many opportunities to dart in and take down some probes, force FFs. Even under sentry fire, a pack of lings can just sit in the minerals and get some easy probe kills.
I guess just try being more active with lings? That could be your whole problem in a nutshell, not getting enough scouting done plus not getting any mileage out of the lings you built.
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On November 18 2012 11:47 obis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:30 tehcaekftw wrote:On November 18 2012 10:27 obis wrote:
Hey all, I was wondering how you would go about saturating your base's in all match ups, as in, once you get 16 drones on minerals on a base would it be efficient to get your geysers? or would you have to get at least 24 drones on a base as that includes 16 drones for minerals, plus the 2 drones you would have to sacrifice for the geysers and also the 6 drones you would need to saturate them.
Or do you think people just drone up to 16 drones on each mineral field and then once they have all there mineral fields saturated with 16 drones on each they get there gases? or do they get 24 on each base. I am confused as when and what situation to get my gases. It depends on what you're going to do. Most of the time, you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss. However, in ZvZ, lets take an example of a build i usually do. Roughly 7 min lair, followup with a spire straight after. Doing that, if i want to make any decent amount of mutas ill have to take ATLEAST one gas, usually two, so i wont be able to fully saturate my naturals mineral line before taking gasses. So.. yeah.. in cases of early muta, etc, you should just focus on having enough drones in general. Everything else, focus on having enough drones for minerals, then take gasses once you actually need them. Most of the time you can stay alive in all matchups with one gas long enough for you to saturate both bases. when you say"you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss." do you mean that i should have 24 drones at each base? because i think that is full saturation as opposed to the 16 because if i had sixteen on each base then i wouldn't have enough drones to just grab the gases and saturate them. i would have to make another 8 drones and rally them to the base. so i think maybe getting 24 drones per base is the right thing to do, however i do see people just sticking with 16, which i don't know what they do when they want to grab there gases, i think they just rally drones to the extractors.
I mean doing it so that you always have 16 drones on mineral line. For example, when you get 17 drones, make a gas, make 3 more drones or so, and rally them to the minerals. When gas is done, put 3 drones into gas. That way you wont fall under 16 drones on mineral line.
Its not all THAT important though, 1 drone hardly makes a diffrence.
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On November 18 2012 20:22 tehcaekftw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 11:47 obis wrote:On November 18 2012 10:30 tehcaekftw wrote:On November 18 2012 10:27 obis wrote:
Hey all, I was wondering how you would go about saturating your base's in all match ups, as in, once you get 16 drones on minerals on a base would it be efficient to get your geysers? or would you have to get at least 24 drones on a base as that includes 16 drones for minerals, plus the 2 drones you would have to sacrifice for the geysers and also the 6 drones you would need to saturate them.
Or do you think people just drone up to 16 drones on each mineral field and then once they have all there mineral fields saturated with 16 drones on each they get there gases? or do they get 24 on each base. I am confused as when and what situation to get my gases. It depends on what you're going to do. Most of the time, you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss. However, in ZvZ, lets take an example of a build i usually do. Roughly 7 min lair, followup with a spire straight after. Doing that, if i want to make any decent amount of mutas ill have to take ATLEAST one gas, usually two, so i wont be able to fully saturate my naturals mineral line before taking gasses. So.. yeah.. in cases of early muta, etc, you should just focus on having enough drones in general. Everything else, focus on having enough drones for minerals, then take gasses once you actually need them. Most of the time you can stay alive in all matchups with one gas long enough for you to saturate both bases. when you say"you should get the mineral line fully saturated before adding gasses so that you dont get any mineral mining time loss." do you mean that i should have 24 drones at each base? because i think that is full saturation as opposed to the 16 because if i had sixteen on each base then i wouldn't have enough drones to just grab the gases and saturate them. i would have to make another 8 drones and rally them to the base. so i think maybe getting 24 drones per base is the right thing to do, however i do see people just sticking with 16, which i don't know what they do when they want to grab there gases, i think they just rally drones to the extractors. I mean doing it so that you always have 16 drones on mineral line. For example, when you get 17 drones, make a gas, make 3 more drones or so, and rally them to the minerals. When gas is done, put 3 drones into gas. That way you wont fall under 16 drones on mineral line. Its not all THAT important though, 1 drone hardly makes a diffrence.
You actually can go above 16 drones per mineral line (the attitude I got from your reply was 16 max). Top zergs almost always go above 16 drones per mineral line in ZvZ because of how hard it can be to take a 3rd in that match up. Same with ZvT verse hellion banshee openers if the Terran can deny the 3rd.
These benchmarks are very important to remember but it can be more important to just squeeze out as much possible income from the bases you have as possible. If that means going over 16 drones because you can't safely hold an extra base but you can safely hold your current number of bases then so be it. It's more about learning basic economy management then "16 drones is an optimal number".
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I'm working on a super fast 2base lair/muta build for ZvT.
- What's the most dangerous timing attack I can die to with this type of build?
- What will be the typical army in that case?
(Please note this is only after I confirm 1raxFE)
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^Probably some kind of stim+hellion timing IMO. Some sort of 1rax FE into 4-5 rax stim, going for some kind of mass marine all in, or some 2 base marine/tank all in? Just the standard stuff. He'll be relatively gasless in the first case so you can just grab a baneling nest after lair and speed, but I'm not really sure what build you're doing. Generally reactive ling/bane shuts down 2 base all ins, just don't let him get sieged tanks at your natural ramp
Sac an overlord into his main at around 36 supply, and react accordingly! I feel like you should be most afraid of mass marine all ins, or the occasional hellion/CS marine timing
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When do I spread creep in ZvP/ZvZ? In ZvT, I typically go 4 queens, and thus can tumor up, but in ZvZ and ZvP I end up injecting constantly, and then I never spread creep out.
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On November 19 2012 15:59 Salivanth wrote:
When do I spread creep in ZvP/ZvZ? In ZvT, I typically go 4 queens, and thus can tumor up, but in ZvZ and ZvP I end up injecting constantly, and then I never spread creep out.
For zvz, I open with 3 queens, with 2 at my natural so i can easily block ramp if need be, and the third queen (one of the queens at the ramp) is putting down tumors when no threat of ling runby. It is not as crucial in zvz to spread creep, especially early game.
For zvp, I open standard 3 base and will get 4 queens asap so that 1 queen can lay tumors. This extra queen will also help for early zealot pressure on your third.
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What should my general approach be against mech? I am low masters. Here is what I have been doing:
General Opening
15 hatch, 16 pool opening, gasless till about 44 supply.
At 6 mins, get 2 gas at natural
With first 200 gas ling speed and lair
Saturate natural (so I have 16 at main, 16 at nat plus 2 gas)
@100 lair, overseer and pit
Take third (now know for sure if mech or bio from overseer scout)
Take 4 gasses and get 1-1 ranged, andd make spire
Saturate third asap while getting 6 gas
Make about 6 infestor and have about 20 roach, take fourth and get the 2 gasses before saturating 4th
Rush to BL
I usually am morphing about 4-6 BL when they attack and usually come out on bottom on first big engagement. What I want to know is if I should go very heavy roach infestor first and then gradually go BL or should I just get better at what Im doing above.
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On November 19 2012 16:07 The_Goliath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 15:59 Salivanth wrote:
When do I spread creep in ZvP/ZvZ? In ZvT, I typically go 4 queens, and thus can tumor up, but in ZvZ and ZvP I end up injecting constantly, and then I never spread creep out. For zvz, I open with 3 queens, with 2 at my natural so i can easily block ramp if need be, and the third queen (one of the queens at the ramp) is putting down tumors when no threat of ling runby. It is not as crucial in zvz to spread creep, especially early game. For zvp, I open standard 3 base and will get 4 queens asap so that 1 queen can lay tumors. This extra queen will also help for early zealot pressure on your third.
Extending your creep in ZvZ is a double-edged sword but I've found that it can really help taking your third vs. mutas. Instead of creeping outwards just focus on getting it to your third so that your queens (and infestors if applicable) can get there faster. You can also drop spores before your hatch finishes. I like to get a 3rd queen for this as well
In ZvP I started my 3rd queen at my natural when my 3rd is 50% done. When she pops, I drop 1 tumor before moving to my 3rd. Getting a 4th queen is a stylistic choice. It'll help you hold against early zealot/stalker pokes with minimal effort and help your creep a lot (super important vs. sentry immortal all-ins).
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On November 19 2012 15:59 Salivanth wrote:
When do I spread creep in ZvP/ZvZ? In ZvT, I typically go 4 queens, and thus can tumor up, but in ZvZ and ZvP I end up injecting constantly, and then I never spread creep out.
ZvZ it really depends on the situation and build you are doing. It's not a bad idea to connect your 3 bases together, but beyond that if you plan on making mutas or defending it's not a good idea to spread creep.
ZvP I've seen people saying they make a 4th queen early on the third. I prefer making drones at that point but it's up to you. I generally lay a creep tumor down with the second energy batch of the natural queen (first 25 energy as the queen arrives at your nat -> inject, next 25 -> tumor at the tip of the creep), and then extend that creep towards the third. It's really important to defend against early pressure and stargate play because it allows you queens and speedless lings to move a lot faster.
After that I make a 4th queen as soon as the toss gets a third and dedicate it solely to spreading creep.
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On November 19 2012 16:17 The_Goliath wrote:
What should my general approach be against mech? I am low masters. Here is what I have been doing:
General Opening
15 hatch, 16 pool opening, gasless till about 44 supply.
At 6 mins, get 2 gas at natural
With first 200 gas ling speed and lair
Saturate natural (so I have 16 at main, 16 at nat plus 2 gas)
@100 lair, overseer and pit
Take third (now know for sure if mech or bio from overseer scout)
Take 4 gasses and get 1-1 ranged, andd make spire
Saturate third asap while getting 6 gas
Make about 6 infestor and have about 20 roach, take fourth and get the 2 gasses before saturating 4th
Rush to BL
I usually am morphing about 4-6 BL when they attack and usually come out on bottom on first big engagement. What I want to know is if I should go very heavy roach infestor first and then gradually go BL or should I just get better at what Im doing above.
From my experiance there are 2 good ways of dealing with mech
1. Aggresive style - you open with muta, force terran to produce thors while securing a good economy to overwhelm him with roaches
2. Camp style - basically what you are doing. Just few tips: dont go for range upgrade, your goal is to get to bl tech, you want to have meele for it. Make both lings and roaches, with upgrades lings are pretty good even vs bfh and you want as much gas saved for infestors as possible. When he attacks you can fungal if he is really clumped, if not just spam a lot of infested terrans, they are really good vs mech. Also be greedy with your 4th base, if you know he is playing mech take it around 9-10 min. This way you gonna have the economy to support more than just 4-6 bls before his doom push (and any push before bls is gonna be super easy to hold with just infestor/ling/roach). Yeah and its super important to get the 2nd spire in the later stages of the game, upgrades, especially air armor, are soooo important vs mech army.
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Hey guys, so i've been watching a lot of GSL lately. I've seen a lot of spire play in zvz from leenock and other zergs, i've got some questions regarding that build.
1. When do i take my gasses when i'm going for mutas?
2. Do i make roach warren/double evo or roach warren/infestation pit after i make my mutas?
3. Do i start upgrading +1 att/carapace before i get my mutas or after?
4. When should i take my lair when i'm planning to go mutas?
5. Shouldn't i take my third as early as possible? since that is the strength of this build, denying his third and his map control while getting your third earlier up?
Would really appreciate some answers and maybe a link to some replays of leenock doing this in his recent gsl matches ^^
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how do u change your build on PvZ if the toss goes 1 gate exp? I kno wits quite general question but still..
It's so out of date that i don't know how to react.. i think the best thing is to take one gas, research speed at 100 gas and then just continue with the 3 hatch build.. what do u think?
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EPT
